What are your views on fanfics?

[Nozomi Kasaki]

Do you guys tolerate them? Do you guys think they are a form of plagiarism? Are they a disgrace to literature? I want to hear your thoughts on them.

[lenticular]

Well, I both write and read fanfiction from time to time, so unsurprisingly, my thoughts on it are generally positive.

Is it plagiarism? No, definitely not. A key component of plagiarism is that you are trying to pass off someone else's work as your own and not giving credit. Fanfic is pretty much the opposite of that. Fanfic wears its inspiration on its sleeves and says "hey! look! this is the source I'm drawing my inspiration from!" It is, as a whole, a very intellectually honest medium.

But is it copyright (or trademark) infringement, though? I don't know. Probably not? I'm not an intellectual property lawyer. But based on my understanding of copyright law and what I've heard from people who actually are intellectual property lawyers, my belief is that it is probably legally fine in most cases.

But is it ethical? What if the author/copyright holder doesn't want fanfic of their work? Personally speaking, if the copyright holder is a corporation, then I don't care what they want. It's not my concern if fanfic marginally hurts the bottom line of Disney or Nintendo or the likes. However, if the original creator of the work is also the copyright holder (eg, most books or indie games) and they have stated that they don't like fanfic of their work, then I won't write or read anything in that fandom. No disrespect to anyone who chooses otherwise, but that's where I'm most comfortable.

But also, most creative types are fine with fanfic being written of their work. At least, from what I've seen. When creators do actually have an explicit policy or statement about fanfic, I see a lot more that give explicit permission than that ask (or demand) that nobody writes fanfic of their work. It's quite common to see creators request some sort of limitation on fanfic writers ("please show me!" "please don't show me!" "please explicitly credit me!" "please don't include anything that wouldn't be age-appropriate for the original work's target audience!") but relatively rare to see creators who have a blanket opposition to the whole concept.

Beyond that, a lot of professional authors either are or have been involved in fan fiction. The two obvious examples for me are Naomi Novik and EL James. Novik was heavily involved in setting up the Organisation for Transformative Works (which is the group behind the AO3 website, among other things). James wrote Twilight fanfic which she used as the basis for her Fifty Shades novels. But there are countless others out there as well.

But isn't most fanfic absolutely dreadful? Why yes. Yes it is. But that's Sturgeon's Law for you. 90% of everything is crap. And crap fanfic at least has the benefit that nobody is trying to charge you money for it, which you can't say about a lot of media. Furthermore, most people are going to be crap at pretty much anything when they first try it. Fanfic is just a more public space to be crap at something than when you first stumble your way through Wonderwall on your new guitar, for instance.

But what about all the sex!? Please won't someone think of the children!? And assorted other pearl clutching. I mean, this is daft, right? We all know it's daft. But just for completeness' sake: a. There is plenty of fanfic that doesn't include sex at all. b. Sex also features prominently in moveis, literature, games, and pretty much any other artistic or entertainment medium you care to name. c. Fanfic is more likely to explore female sexuality and queer sexuality than most other media, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it gets targeted for this reason.

My ultimate parting thought though, is this: adapting, changing and reworking stories has been an integral part of our culture for as long as our culture has existed. Have you ever tried to study Greek mythology, for instance, and discovered that it's all a big confusing mess where different myths seem to directly contradict each other? That's often because they do, because the stories were retold many times and they changed in the retelling.

Or consider just how many modern works are essentially adaptations of Shakespeare. And that a lot of Shakespeare's work was adaptations of classical stories. If it's OK for Shakespeare to take Pyramus and Thisbe and turn it into Romeo and Juliet, then for Sondheim et al to take Romeo and Juliet and turn it into West Side Story, why is it not then OK for a random fanfic writer to take West Side Story and turn it into something new? Obviously, an average fanfic writer is not going to be nearly as talented as Ovid, Shakespeare or Sondheim, but restricting the right to make art to people who make "good art" is an obviously horrendous idea.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Full disclosure that I have created, edited, and participated in group fan projects involving fanfiction and other fanworks, so obviously you know where my opinions on this topic are going to lie. Most of what I would say has already been said very eloquently by @lenticular. I rather strongly feel that fanfiction, and fanart, etc., are honestly some of the most positive things to come out of fandom. Certainly when I look back on my own contributions, I know my own works of writing left far more of a positive impact on others than my trying to convince folks that [unit x] is better than [unit y].

Reading the rather loaded-sounding questions in the opening post make me a bit sad. I'm not sure if they reflect your own opinions, @Nozomi Kasaki, or just what you perceive is out there, but I guess my parting thought is that... fanfiction and fanart are both created primarily by women, even in fandoms which skew relatively male. And sadly, I don't think this fact is unrelated to the fact that some people try to paint fanfiction as illegitimate/undesirable.

[Etrurian emperor]

I'm not opposed to them. I mostly think they're a celebration and find cracking down on them over copyright is being a party pooper. It speaks well of a work if people are willing to get so engaged with them. That they're often kinda bad isn't really a problem. Almost by definition its mostly laymen who write them so one shouldn't even expect much more. 

That said I don't really have the patience to sit down and read fanfiction myself. 

[Nozomi Kasaki]

3 hours ago, lenticular said:

Well, I both write and read fanfiction from time to time, so unsurprisingly, my thoughts on it are generally positive.

Is it plagiarism? No, definitely not. A key component of plagiarism is that you are trying to pass off someone else's work as your own and not giving credit. Fanfic is pretty much the opposite of that. Fanfic wears its inspiration on its sleeves and says "hey! look! this is the source I'm drawing my inspiration from!" It is, as a whole, a very intellectually honest medium.

But is it copyright (or trademark) infringement, though? I don't know. Probably not? I'm not an intellectual property lawyer. But based on my understanding of copyright law and what I've heard from people who actually are intellectual property lawyers, my belief is that it is probably legally fine in most cases.

But is it ethical? What if the author/copyright holder doesn't want fanfic of their work? Personally speaking, if the copyright holder is a corporation, then I don't care what they want. It's not my concern if fanfic marginally hurts the bottom line of Disney or Nintendo or the likes. However, if the original creator of the work is also the copyright holder (eg, most books or indie games) and they have stated that they don't like fanfic of their work, then I won't write or read anything in that fandom. No disrespect to anyone who chooses otherwise, but that's where I'm most comfortable.

But also, most creative types are fine with fanfic being written of their work. At least, from what I've seen. When creators do actually have an explicit policy or statement about fanfic, I see a lot more that give explicit permission than that ask (or demand) that nobody writes fanfic of their work. It's quite common to see creators request some sort of limitation on fanfic writers ("please show me!" "please don't show me!" "please explicitly credit me!" "please don't include anything that wouldn't be age-appropriate for the original work's target audience!") but relatively rare to see creators who have a blanket opposition to the whole concept.

Beyond that, a lot of professional authors either are or have been involved in fan fiction. The two obvious examples for me are Naomi Novik and EL James. Novik was heavily involved in setting up the Organisation for Transformative Works (which is the group behind the AO3 website, among other things). James wrote Twilight fanfic which she used as the basis for her Fifty Shades novels. But there are countless others out there as well.

But isn't most fanfic absolutely dreadful? Why yes. Yes it is. But that's Sturgeon's Law for you. 90% of everything is crap. And crap fanfic at least has the benefit that nobody is trying to charge you money for it, which you can't say about a lot of media. Furthermore, most people are going to be crap at pretty much anything when they first try it. Fanfic is just a more public space to be crap at something than when you first stumble your way through Wonderwall on your new guitar, for instance.

But what about all the sex!? Please won't someone think of the children!? And assorted other pearl clutching. I mean, this is daft, right? We all know it's daft. But just for completeness' sake: a. There is plenty of fanfic that doesn't include sex at all. b. Sex also features prominently in moveis, literature, games, and pretty much any other artistic or entertainment medium you care to name. c. Fanfic is more likely to explore female sexuality and queer sexuality than most other media, and I don't think it's a coincidence that it gets targeted for this reason.

My ultimate parting thought though, is this: adapting, changing and reworking stories has been an integral part of our culture for as long as our culture has existed. Have you ever tried to study Greek mythology, for instance, and discovered that it's all a big confusing mess where different myths seem to directly contradict each other? That's often because they do, because the stories were retold many times and they changed in the retelling.

Or consider just how many modern works are essentially adaptations of Shakespeare. And that a lot of Shakespeare's work was adaptations of classical stories. If it's OK for Shakespeare to take Pyramus and Thisbe and turn it into Romeo and Juliet, then for Sondheim et al to take Romeo and Juliet and turn it into West Side Story, why is it not then OK for a random fanfic writer to take West Side Story and turn it into something new? Obviously, an average fanfic writer is not going to be nearly as talented as Ovid, Shakespeare or Sondheim, but restricting the right to make art to people who make "good art" is an obviously horrendous idea.

This is honestly the best post I have ever seen so far. Props to you Ienticular-san

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Reading the rather loaded-sounding questions in the opening post make me a bit sad. I'm not sure if they reflect your own opinions, @Nozomi Kasaki, or just what you perceive is out there, but I guess my parting thought is that... fanfiction and fanart are both created primarily by women, even in fandoms which skew relatively male. And sadly, I don't think this fact is unrelated to the fact that some people try to paint fanfiction as illegitimate/undesirable.

No worries, the questions displayed in my opening post does not reflect my own views on fanfiction. Quite the contrary actually. I actually really love fanfiction and thought it is a creative and fun way for people to make stories based on the stories they know and love. It's just that I have talked to a lot of people, both personally and online, who have negative views about fanfiction such as writing fanfiction is a pointless waste of time and that at the end of the day fanfics would never canon (not to say what they said isn't necessarily true though it does make me feel a little sad thinking about those words a little bit). Meanwhile there are a few who I talked with who have an even extreme negative view of fanfics stating that they are a disgrace to literature for copying another professional writer's characters and settings and stuff like that. The only reason I asked this question in the first place is because most people in this entire forum might hold the same views as the people I mentioned and that anyone who mentions anything about a fanfic would be shredded down to bits and be ridiculed. I really like fanfics, so much so that my brain is already producing so many ideas for a fanfic (even if most of them are just really dumb if not outright make absolutely no sense whatsoever (i.e Ethlyn somehow managed to survive the Aed Massacre and escape with her daughter Altena and then both of them somehow get isekai'd to the Kingdom of Liberl from the Trails series and Altena becomes the mother of Cassius Bright (seriously where are fanfic ideas such as this coming from!?))). 

Which is why I am extremely hesitant on posting anything related to fanfics in this forum because I might get ridiculed for posting about a post of my fanfic or, if possible, a question about any advice on fanfic writing (i.e how to get better fanfic ideas?).

Edited June 4 by Nozomi Kasaki

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't recall ever reading one except in a context where, say, a youtube video was presenting passages from an outrageous one to me. There's also the Lindsay Ellis video series about the Omegaverse lawsuit. Hilarious, though I really wish I wasn't exposed to the definition of "knotting". That's not even kinky, it's just degenerate.

I'm a member of the generation that built the negative stigma of fan fics, so I try not to go for low blows on the concept ever since it was pointed out to me that most are created by fans that struggle to find a space for themselves within online fandoms. And besides, the things I create could easily fit some definition of Fan Fiction even if it's not in text. Smooshing two of my favorite games together into a crossover literally no one asked for. If someone made a comment on my favorite video saying "this is my favorite fan fiction" I would Heart that comment so fast, because it's mine too. The next one I'm making is a crossover of Donkey Kong and Fatal Fury. Kong of Fighters, Get it? I'm excited to present the Terry Bogard and Diddy Kong relationship by drawing parallels to his surrogate-fatherhood with Rock Howard. But the Kongs don't speak, so it's a fun challenge 'writing stories' without dialogue.

Edited June 4 by Zapp Branniglenn

[Hrothgar777]

I've also written fanfiction before, though it's since been scrubbed from the internet. Though, my Video Game Fanon Wiki pages could plausibly be labeled a type of fanfiction.

 

My thoughts are, it's usually amateurish and cringe (mine included) but not unethical in any sense of the word so long as you aren't trying to profit off of it. Or, I guess, so long as you aren't writing a story that might be intrinsically immoral to tell regardless of format or IP.

Edited June 4 by Hrothgar777

[Armchair General]

I avoid it like it's the plague 

56 minutes ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

though I really wish I wasn't exposed to the definition of "knotting". That's not even kinky, it's just degenerate.

And this is one of the reasons why. Along with most of the stuff that gets recommended just not being my cup of tea

 

 

Edited June 4 by Armchair General

[Acacia Sgt]

I like them. Both to read and write them. Been years doing that.

[vanguard333]

I've never written fanfiction, but I am not opposed to fanfiction. I think that, if something is just making a fan work for fun, then it's fine. As an aspiring writer currently writing my own novel, I can even see the potential value in fanfiction in helping people practice creative writing, particularly when it's the type of fanfiction where the setting is from another story but the characters are created by the fanfic author.

If I ever were to create a piece of fanfiction, it would either be the type where the setting is from an established work but the characters and plot are my own, or it would follow an original character to explore something I felt was underutilized in the original work. For an example of the latter, I like My Hero Academia, but I would've liked to see the quirkless be explored more in the story; not through Deku remaining quirkless (that would not have been feasible, and before someone brings up Batman, Batman fights street-level villains and avoids direct fights against more powerful foes, while Deku is the protagonist of a shonen manga and thus has to fight powerful foes), but through another quirkless character. So, one idea I've had was to write a fanfic following a quirkless character I'd create that would join the League of Villains.

Where I do think a problem rises are the rare cases where a fanfic author changes the names and tries to deny the fanfic origins so they can sell it as an original work. But the problem then is not fanfiction; the problem there is someone trying to pass off something derivative as something creative.

[X-Naut]

They're a fun creative outlet and it's been one of my hobbies for a few years now. As others have said they're largely a positive force; there's certainly some disturbing kinks and even the more innocent concepts won't be to everyone's tastes, but don't read if you don't like. Many host sites feature tags so you won't get jump-scared.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

My honest opinion? 99.99% of the time they're incredibly cringe-worthy, poorly-written, and just outright bad, they do extreme disservice to the characters of the established work the vast, VAST majority of the time, and over the years I've learned to avoid them entirely.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I am 100% on the make-up-what-you-want train. The continuity-is-more-like-a-suggestion trolley car. The change-it-to-what-you-want Vengabus. The tell-it-however-many-times-as-long-as-its-good Concord Jet. I am pro the guy on a hill in ancient Greece and just made stuff up and then it became part of human culture forever. Sure, most of it's bad. Most of the stuff the Greeks made up was probably bad. We've probably lost most of the good stuff. Some good stuff survived, though.

[Randoman]

It's not really my thing to write fanfic or read it these days (I did in the past very rarely), but if others want to do it, go for it...

...so long as it's safe for work and not done with the intention of degrading other characters and exalting others. Bad/inexperienced writing in and of itself is understandable enough, since not everyone can start off as writing experts.

Though personally, I think people should stick to original story ideas. You have so much more creative freedom that way, and you're not bound by the rules of any specific fictional universe. I find that being crazy and out there with your ideas (yet being grounded within your story universe's rules) is the most fun and enjoyable part of story writing and world building.

[Acacia Sgt]

7 minutes ago, Randoman said:

Though personally, I think people should stick to original story ideas. You have so much more creative freedom that way, and you're not bound by the rules of any specific fictional universe. I find that being crazy and out there with your ideas (yet being grounded within your story universe's rules) is the most fun and enjoyable part of story writing and world building.

I feel that may not work for everyone. Or at least, fanfiction can ease you up to it. Too much freedom can be overwhelming if you jump to it right away, making it ironically more restrictive. With fanfiction of preexisting IP, it's less stuff to make up. The rules are already there instead of you having to come up with them. Less effort to be a hook as well. People will be drawn to the pre-existing stuff as it's familiar, while with original stuff it's an unknown gamble. You'd have better odds being a writer with a built-up reputation as it's you who can serve as the hook for the truly original stuff.

Well, that's how I see it. Maybe. As it is, I probably won't ever move on to original stuff. Writing is just a hobby, so if I can only dedicate so much to it, I'll stick to fanfics. They're easier for me.

[Imuabicus der Fertige]

Fanfiction is head-canon-eering (?) and as such should stay where it cam from.

If you don´t have the courage to show the thing that you made, then why bother with the thing that you copied? And I hardly have the want to read someones "But actually" version of someones elses story.

Edited June 5 by Imuabicus der Fertige

[yayCollie]

I think all creative works have a right to exist. Art is just an expression of idea's, why should something derived from another work be any different? Art is communication, and in communication there is a "back and forth" fanfics are just a "response".

 

Aside from that, I don't think there should be a limit either to the content in fanfics or anything, for example, I enjoy a certain band and found a song similar to it but not by the band. The song that I found and liked turned out to be parody to make fun of the band that I like, I enjoy both. It's okay for things to be made in spite of what it's derived from.

[lenticular]

21 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Certainly when I look back on my own contributions, I know my own works of writing left far more of a positive impact on others than my trying to convince folks that [unit x] is better than [unit y].

For the record, some of your arguments that unit x is better than unit y have also had a positive influence on me, both in the sense of "that was a fun discussion" and "that has changed how I think about things".

19 hours ago, Nozomi Kasaki said:

This is honestly the best post I have ever seen so far. Props to you Ienticular-san

Thank you. That's very kind of you to say.

19 hours ago, Nozomi Kasaki said:

Meanwhile there are a few who I talked with who have an even extreme negative view of fanfics stating that they are a disgrace to literature for copying another professional writer's characters and settings and stuff like that.

I see this argument floated sometimes, and honestly, I think that it's dumb as a box of rocks. It is perfectly common for writers to use the characters and settings created by other writers, and many such works have been commercially successful and critically acclaimed. Just think for a moment baout how many different writers have written Bruce Wayne, Luke Skywalker, Jean Luc Picard, Lara Croft, Nancy Drew, Bart Simpson... and many, many others.

As an example, consider the film, The Dark Knight. When that came out, did anyone talk about how much of a lazy hack Christopher Nolan was for using characters that others had created, and how he was a disgrace to cinema, and how nobody but Bob Kane and Bill Finger should ever have written Batman stories? Obviously not. Instead, it was the highest grossing film of its year and won so many awards that they have their own Wikipedia page.

There is no inherent artistic difference between Nolan and a random fanfic writer. There is a definite legal difference, of course. Nolan has explicit permission from rights holders whereas fanfic authors are generally relying on fair use provisions and the likes. But I for one have no interest in letting a Warner Bros executive have the final say on what is and is not a valid display of artistic expression within our culture. And there is, on average, a significant difference in quality. But again, we're getting deep into dystopian territory if we're starting to demand that only "good" (whose definition of good?) art is allowed to be created or shared.

19 hours ago, Zapp Branniglenn said:

I don't recall ever reading one except in a context where, say, a youtube video was presenting passages from an outrageous one to me. There's also the Lindsay Ellis video series about the Omegaverse lawsuit. Hilarious, though I really wish I wasn't exposed to the definition of "knotting". That's not even kinky, it's just degenerate.

Omegaverse is... weird. And I always struggle figuring out exactly what I think about it. Because on the one hand, there is definitely that visceral "ewww, gross! I did not need to know that!" reaction to it. But on the other hand, if that's how other people get their jollies, then who am I to tell them not to? So long as they aren't actually hurting anyone, then they can have whatever weird interests and hobbies they want. Just so long as they keep it well away from me.

16 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Where I do think a problem rises are the rare cases where a fanfic author changes the names and tries to deny the fanfic origins so they can sell it as an original work. But the problem then is not fanfiction; the problem there is someone trying to pass off something derivative as something creative.

This sort of thing is pretty interesting, honestly. Because even highly derivative works are typically legal. If I wanted to write a story about a bunch of people in a medieval fantasy world fighting against a dark cult and their dragon god and then being helped out by their children who traveled back in time from a world where the dragon apocalypse had happened, then I totally could do that. I couldn't lift chunks of text directly from Awakening (copyright infringement) or call the main characters Chrom and Lucina (probably trademark infringement), and I definitely couldn't market it using the words "Fire Emblem" (or anything Emblem, as Kaga found out). But just the general story outline is fine. Highly derivative, of course, but  on a firm legal standing. And even being derivative isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are, after all, no completely new stories. Every story is inspired by other stories that went before.

9 hours ago, Randoman said:

It's not really my thing to write fanfic or read it these days (I did in the past very rarely), but if others want to do it, go for it...

...so long as it's safe for work and not done with the intention of degrading other characters and exalting others. Bad/inexperienced writing in and of itself is understandable enough, since not everyone can start off as writing experts.

I am curious what you have against NSFW fanfic? It isn't typically my thing, but I have no problem with it existing. So long as it's suitably labeled so that people who aren't interested can avoid it, of course. And I think there's a decent argument for avoiding adult content in fanfic based on works that are explicitly aimed at children (no BDSM Frozen or drug addiction Pokémon, for instance).

9 hours ago, Randoman said:

Though personally, I think people should stick to original story ideas. You have so much more creative freedom that way, and you're not bound by the rules of any specific fictional universe. I find that being crazy and out there with your ideas (yet being grounded within your story universe's rules) is the most fun and enjoyable part of story writing and world building.

I think there is fun to be had both ways. Creating original characters and an original world is definitely a lot of fun, for sure. But I think there are also advantages to using pre-existing characters and setting. For one, I think that they're nice for especially short fiction. If I only have the time and energy to write a 2000 word short story, then it's nice to be able to dive straight into whatever I want the story to be about and not have to spend those limited words on establishing the characters. The other big one for me, frankly, is readership. Part of the fun of writing is having other people read what you wrote, and that's a whole lot easier with fanfic than original fiction. And yeah, to some extent there is feedback loop/self-fulfiling prophecy/network effect going on here. Maybe if fanfic was less prominent then there would be more people willing to read my amateur-hour original fic, but that's not the world that we live in.

8 hours ago, Imuabicus der Fertige said:

If you don´t have the courage to show the thing that you made, then why bother with the thing that you copied?

What on Earth does courage have to do with anything? I write as a hobby because I enjoy it, not because it's a test of my bravery.

[vanguard333]

2 hours ago, lenticular said:

This sort of thing is pretty interesting, honestly. Because even highly derivative works are typically legal. If I wanted to write a story about a bunch of people in a medieval fantasy world fighting against a dark cult and their dragon god and then being helped out by their children who traveled back in time from a world where the dragon apocalypse had happened, then I totally could do that. I couldn't lift chunks of text directly from Awakening (copyright infringement) or call the main characters Chrom and Lucina (probably trademark infringement), and I definitely couldn't market it using the words "Fire Emblem" (or anything Emblem, as Kaga found out). But just the general story outline is fine. Highly derivative, of course, but on a firm legal standing. And even being derivative isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are, after all, no completely new stories. Every story is inspired by other stories that went before.

True that derivative works are legal and that there are no completely new stories, but that wasn't really what I was talking about (admittedly, I probably shouldn't have used the word "derivative" in my concluding statement). Technically, even when making a derivative work, the author is starting from a blank canvas (I know I'm using a visual art metaphor, but no one ever says "empty set of pages" as a metaphor).

What I was talking about in the part that you quoted are the few cases where someone takes a fanfiction, removes everything trademarked, and says, "Look at my new original story that definitely was never fanfiction". When I was saying that a problem arises in this case, I wasn't really talking about from a legal standpoint, as I don't know enough of the laws and the few cases I know of where this happened didn't seem to result in any legal troubles. I do think there is an ethical problem in this case, however, and it is one of dishonesty and not giving proper credit.

You mentioned that fanfiction and official adaptations are very similar; one area where they are indeed very similar is that both wear on their sleeves that they are based on a work of established media; to use your example of The Dark Knight, there's a reason every superhero film has a "Based on the characters from [insert name of the comic book company here]" in the opening and/or end credits; it's important to recognize the source material. Fanfiction is similar in that it acknowledges its source material, which is important. If someone then takes a fanfiction, removes all trademarked material and presents it as a work, legally it isn't infringing on anything, but it is still a story based on another story that now no longer acknowledges its source material.

 

So, basically, the short version is that I think fanfiction is fine and can often be a useful tool for helping people learn creative writing, and it only becomes an issue when someone tries to pass off a fanfiction as something original.

[indigoasis]

I don't ever read fanfics, but I have experience in writing some. I think that fanfiction offers a great avenue for expressing creativity while also showcasing your interests in a particular thing. At lot of it works off the backbones of what others have created since it's inherently derivative, but I think it's potentially a good way to connect with others about a shared interest, whether that be in what you're writing about or the act of writing itself.

Of course, my stance is coming from the angle of creating something that can add to the original work in some way or offer something new to experience, so I'm not exactly inclined towards the smut that comes out of it, but I think fanfiction is perfectly fine and acceptable otherwise, even if it's bad.

[Original Alear]

19 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

I am 100% on the make-up-what-you-want train. The continuity-is-more-like-a-suggestion trolley car. The change-it-to-what-you-want Vengabus. The tell-it-however-many-times-as-long-as-its-good Concord Jet. I am pro the guy on a hill in ancient Greece and just made stuff up and then it became part of human culture forever. Sure, most of it's bad. Most of the stuff the Greeks made up was probably bad. We've probably lost most of the good stuff. Some good stuff survived, though.

TBH I don't buy that most things are bad. Like, most restaurants I've been to have decent enough food, even if it doesn't excel. And there's a ceramics place in this city I've been to a couple times w/ many artists making their own pieces and most of the ones they put on exhibition this one time were good in some way. There are a bunch of other examples. I just think that even something that stands out as quality is overwhelmed in a vast ocean of quality.

As far as fanfics go the only ones I read at length were the ones by Frank Vanderosa (sp?) on Final Fantasy VII. And I read a few ones that were put on this website during that one art competition and I thought they were at least entertaining and endearing to a certain extent.

Edited June 5 by Original Alear

[lenticular]

On 6/5/2024 at 11:17 PM, Original Alear said:

TBH I don't buy that most things are bad. Like, most restaurants I've been to have decent enough food, even if it doesn't excel. And there's a ceramics place in this city I've been to a couple times w/ many artists making their own pieces and most of the ones they put on exhibition this one time were good in some way. There are a bunch of other examples. I just think that even something that stands out as quality is overwhelmed in a vast ocean of quality.

It depends on what population you're selecting from. If I walk into a bookshop, most of the books there are probably at least decent. Maybe not to my tastes and interests, but not bad. But then consider that the books in the shop have all been chosen by the bookseller as the best ones that they think will sell. And then there are even more filters behind that. The booksellers can't choose to sell books that are long out of print because nobody liked them. And the selection of books that are published in the first place is higher quality than all the manuscripts that get sent to publishers by aspiring authors. And the manuscripts that people send to publishers are, on average, going to be better than the ones that people finish writing but then never do anything with them because they don't think they're any good. Which are better than books that people start but then abandon before they finish.

So if the question is "are most novels crap?" then the answer is a resounding "yes!" if you're looking at the level of "unfinished NaNoWriMo projects" and a resounding "no!" if you're looking at the level of "the bookseller's choice shelf at your favourite indie bookshop", and somewhat vaguer and more equivocal answers as you move through various filters between these two extremes.

[DarkSage861]

I was one of those people that really indulged in fanfictions when I was younger, I don't exactly remember why I was into them but maybe it was the genuine curiosity to see the creativity of other people online. As I got older, I did understand the people who weren't on board with them, not everyone has the patience to read or watch some fan made story from some random on the internet, especially when said stories can be head scratching or just straight laughable. 

Around late 2022, I started getting into directing/editing fan projects for videos on YouTube with a friend of mine and the new process making stuff like this with the mindset of "how will the reception be when I release this". My friend had ideas for some of the stories of these project and honestly there were stuff I wasn't too big on. The best way to tackle fan project, fan fictions or anything in general is peer reviewing. When you get feedback from a friend or someone you know, it really does help with communication and bringing the best out of your story. 

Edited June 9 by DarkSage861

[Revier]

As someone who's infamous for being a bit of a harsh and overtly picky critic of stories in certain circles, I'm fairly ambivalent about them. I think they can be a decent introduction to the realms of storytelling and fictional writing. However, I would also say that any writer looking to seriously make good stories should eventually learn to create their own worlds and characters, and toss off the crutch of reusing other people's work. The real world is often a far better source of inspiration than any work of fiction.

That said, there's nothing wrong with writing fanfiction, per se. Personally, I greatly prefer fanfics which serve to highlight aspects of the original story and provide commentary on them, rather than merely borrow their characters and setting to reuse in new stories. That's why I tend to gravitate towards stuff like parodies and character perspectives.

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 6/5/2024 at 6:02 AM, lenticular said:

For the record, some of your arguments that unit x is better than unit y have also had a positive influence on me, both in the sense of "that was a fun discussion" and "that has changed how I think about things".

Thanks! That's kind of you to say so. For the record I've very much enjoyed our discussions on these topics as well.

On 6/8/2024 at 8:50 AM, lenticular said:

So if the question is "are most novels crap?" then the answer is a resounding "yes!" if you're looking at the level of "unfinished NaNoWriMo projects" and a resounding "no!" if you're looking at the level of "the bookseller's choice shelf at your favourite indie bookshop", and somewhat vaguer and more equivocal answers as you move through various filters between these two extremes.

Yeah, Sturgeon's Law (and similar sentiments) very much depend both on your sample space, and on your definition of crap. I've generally found it overly harsh. Even in the case of fanfiction published to AO3 (or similar), which has a lower bar for entry than a the shelves of a bookstore (though still higher than including unfinished projects, naturally), i feel like if I selected a work completely at random, the chance I would consider it "crap" is considerably below 90%, myself. That said maybe some people have different definitions of crap. In particular, the chance I would actually want to read such a work is pretty low. A lot of fiction out there, fan or original, isn't for me. And for all but the most voracious of fiction readers, I imagine the same is true. But I'm not really comfortable labelling everything that isn't for me as "crap". I would personally reserve that label for things I consider particularly poorly written.