Vigilante Mafia Game Thread - Game Over, LoVE wins!

[DefyingFates]

6 minutes ago, CT075 said:

it's what neighbor (Aster's flip) means, it usually means that they and a specified other get a line of private communication (but usually aren't given more information other than "hey, this is your neighbor, you can talk to them in private"). I'm assuming that Aster's neighbor is RAT because if it were town someone would have claimed it by now

Ah, that's what Neighbor is, thanks!

8 minutes ago, CT075 said:

 

 

And that's what you meant, I was wondering if you had something else to add, my bad!

[CT075]

of remaining players, I think it has to be between me/fates/elie/weapons. IMO we can lynch one of me/fates/weapons, have Elie give Boron the gun and shoot her biggest scumread, leaving Boron/Jamie/[whoever's left] LYLO

I agree that Elie's role doesn't make that much sense with the empowerer, but I can't shake the feeling that a) it isn't unlimited after all or b) he can choose to give up his factional shot but also has another action (that would get empowered)

[CT075]

ughhhhhhh this is fucking hard, I'm going with my gut here -

I do not, and cannot know what the host is thinking with the setup. I'm so sure that lying about their claim here, but I don't think we have a good way to find out unless someone spotted a contradiction that I didn't.

Falling back on old-fashioned scumhunting, the two people with the worst Marth interactions are Fates and Elie, so I want to keep looking there. I'm fine leaving my vote where it is, but I could be convinced to lynch Fates instead if we want to give Boron a second shot.

[CT075]

14 hours ago, JamieIsBored said:

Nothing can until Sunwoo dies, had Percivalé not rolestopped me then it would have been announced to Sunwoo. 

wait @Sunwoo can you confirm/deny whether you were told about being a deathtalker? I thought you said you were somewhere but I can't find it (and this quote suggest that you actually weren't?)

[CT075]

3 minutes ago, CT075 said:

I'm so sure that someone is lying about their claim here, but I don't think we have a good way to find out unless someone spotted a contradiction that I didn't.

 

[CT075]

further thoughts on the premise that Boron was not told that she can deathtalk --

Jamie's role isn't actually proven, and is actually impossible to prove without killing Boron. but since Boron is already clear (by way of there only being one kill last night -- nobody claimed to have protection, right?), we'd just be trading one clear for another (because I agree, stumper is a useless scum role). This could be some kind of galaxy-brain scumfake that's impossible to actually falsify (from this endgame gamestate -- notice that it was claimed after Boron took credit for the shot)

--- (took a shower between typing the above and below)

it's also possible that Boron is not as clear as I thought -- Boron could have idled her factional kill to clear herself and basically auto-win from here

...I can feel the tinfoil coalescing around my brain.

[CT075]

over the course of the past hour I have managed to convince myself that I don't know anything and my life and role pm lies

alright, no more conspiracy-theorying. I don't think it's knowable with current information. I am going to go back and pick over Marth and Aster interactions with a fine-toothed comb. Im doing this the old-fashioned way to the bitter end, sorry rolespeccers.

[Elieson]

2 hours ago, CT075 said:

Don't forget that the scumteams had a line to each other -- it seems just like the kind of SF setup idea to have the scumteams synergize with each other to make them cooperate more than they might otherwise.

Scum A & Scum B neighbors in Multiball sound nothing short of horrible in design, because in what setting would a scum out themselves as scum.

Also, you're the first person to bring up this bolded bit as fact instead of possibility. Granted, it makes sense, but ya'll saw how much I nitpick grammar (by way of my case on Eury since the very beginning of this game), and you can bet your left buttcheek that this is something heavily influencing my thoughts at the moment.

6 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, Cam's conditional BPV would kinda go hand-in-hand with Aster's flip, where she also had a BPV. Marth didn't have one and Eury didn't either. So I suppose it would balance out to have one scum on each team have NK immunity.

I'm a sucker for a good rolespec though, and tbh, this seems like the most sensible option with consideration of balance; otherwise, Eury/Aster are far stronger with their dual disruption and 1/2 protection, than a flipped motivator/empowerer + something without protection. That said, Fates also has some protection, so if I were a betting man, I'd put scum between Fates and Cam on the simple premise of Rolespec.

 

[Elieson]

1 hour ago, CT075 said:

I agree that Elie's role doesn't make that much sense with the empowerer, but I can't shake the feeling that a) it isn't unlimited after all

My role isn't unlimited. I may not have been clear enough, but I'm 2x

[CT075]

4 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Granted, it makes sense, but ya'll saw how much I nitpick grammar (by way of my case on Eury since the very beginning of this game)

i am just going to calmly point out that you wrote this giant wall about how the only reason that eury would change her grammar when addressing me is if she was my scumbuddy

[CT075]

do you have a better explanation as to why nobody else has claimed neighbor? you'd think an esteemed rolespeccer would notice that, in fact, we're still short one neighbor

why else would the role exist if not to have the scumteams talk to each other?

[Elieson]

1 hour ago, CT075 said:

it's also possible that Boron is not as clear as I thought -- Boron could have idled her factional kill to clear herself and basically auto-win from here

Boron was arguably the most townread person in the game thus far. If she were scum, why would she shoot Bartozio of all people, the person who would've probably been the safest and easiest lynch option for today. Heck, as was already discussed, why would any mafia faction have shot Bartozio when they were the easiest lynch option for Day 3?

The only way I can see this being a thing, would actually come from Boron's own words; if two people died last night, it could be pinned on Scum!Boron for having shot two people, but she'd be in no more danger than if she idled, since my thing doesn't block factional kills and I made that public afterwards. She would've had to receive the gun, assume that with the words she was given by the mod that she was incapable of using her factional shot, and opted to shoot Bartozio as her only percievable shot such taht she could get one off... It all hinges on her somehow not being aware that her factional shot would be available, which is really weird since my role is incredibly specific in mentioning that factional actions and abilities are unaffected by the blocking portion of my role.

[Elieson]

2 minutes ago, CT075 said:

i am just going to calmly point out that you wrote this giant wall about how the only reason that eury would change her grammar when addressing me is if she was my scumbuddy

That's half fair. Her grammatical weirdness made me think of you as her scumbud, but if she had that same verbiage towards another player, I'd have suspected that person instead of you.

1 minute ago, CT075 said:

do you have a better explanation as to why nobody else has claimed neighbor? you'd think an esteemed rolespeccer would notice that, in fact, we're still short one neighbor

why else would the role exist if not to have the scumteams talk to each other?

I can actually see somebody as town, withholding that they're neighbor, acting under the assumption that they are basically autolynched for sharing that they have a role that matches scum, when then don't understand exactly what they are. Specifically, I'm referring to Fates here, and past events from a handful of games I've been in which have featured people thinking that Neighbors are Masons, or Neighbors are a same-faction type of role. It's poor play and it's objectively incorrect, but it's something I've seen so many new players do. I can see Fates hiding that he's a neighbor regardless of faction, because he simply thinks that if he says he's Neighbor (much like how Aster flipped neighbor), that we'd just turbo lynch him regardless of his attempts at alignment or defense.

So yea, it's not the best reason, but when thinking of it from a more novice PoV, it's plausible.

[Elieson]

6 minutes ago, CT075 said:

why else would the role exist if not to have the scumteams talk to each other?

I'm of the thought process that would any player take the risk to out themselves as scum to another player.

[CT075]

@DefyingFates save us from this, are you the last neighbor?

1 minute ago, Elieson said:

That's half fair. Her grammatical weirdness made me think of you as her scumbud, but if she had that same verbiage towards another player, I'd have suspected that person instead of you.

i mean more to point out how accurate your grammar-checking has been so far

[Elieson]

Just now, Elieson said:

I'm of the thought process that would any player take the risk to out themselves as scum to another player.

Apparently Ctrl+Enter submits posts, even when accidentally pressed. Neat.

I'm of the thought process that no player would take the risk to out themselves as scum to another player.

[CT075]

Elie, you seem weirdly confident that the neighbors weren't told that the other member is scum to begin with. Do you know something you're not telling me?

[CT075]

10 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Heck, as was already discussed, why would any mafia faction have shot Bartozio when they were the easiest lynch option for Day 3?

This line of reasoning doesn't have a logical conclusion -- if you think it's so unlikely that the last remaining scum shot Bartozio, where's the second kill? We have no claimed protection, so what happened to it?

[Elieson]

1 minute ago, CT075 said:

Elie, you seem weirdly confident that the neighbors weren't told that the other member is scum to begin with. Do you know something you're not telling me?

I'm incredibly confident that neighbors are never told the alignment of their neighbro's faction, and if BBM changed that up here, then the role of Neighbor is either a lie, or BBM changed it without telling anyone by way of his flips omitting information.

Otherwise, we're led to assume that all 4 scum essentially knew each other from the beginning of the game, and I refuse to believe that would ever be added as a fair and balanced feature of a game ever.

[Elieson]

Just now, CT075 said:

This line of reasoning doesn't have a logical conclusion -- if you think it's so unlikely that the last remaining scum shot Bartozio, where's the second kill? We have no claimed protection, so what happened to it?

That's why I asked the question

[CT075]

Just now, Elieson said:

Otherwise, we're led to assume that all 4 scum essentially knew each other from the beginning of the game, and I refuse to believe that would ever be added as a fair and balanced feature of a game ever.

No, I don't think this follows at all. I think it's totally reasonable to have Aster and the other neighbor know each other's alignments with the remaining scumbuddies hidden.

But moreover, why else does the role exist??? Unless Fates comes back here to tell us right now that they're the other neighbor (and honestly, even then I'm scumreading Fates anyway), what else is mafia neighbor doing in this game?

[CT075]

Just now, Elieson said:

That's why I asked the question

I don't know why the last RAT member would have shot Bartozio, given that I'm not the one deciding the kills. I am becoming increasingly suspicious of your absolutely no-second-guessing assertion that Bartozio was definitely the most obvious lynch target and there's no way that scum and Boron could have shot the same person.

I've offered at least two scenarios (scum and Boron both shot Bartozio or scum!Boron chose to idle the factional kill) and you seem to think that neither one is remotely possible. So are you going to offer an opposing theory, or are you just spreading confusion?

[CT075]

if Fates comes back and says he was the other neighbor after stating that he doesn't know what neighbor is i'm going to lose my mind

[CT075]

6 minutes ago, CT075 said:

No, I don't think this follows at all. I think it's totally reasonable to have Aster and the other neighbor know each other's alignments with the remaining scumbuddies hidden.

 

but really, I do not know what happened in that neighbor convo, and you seem to be making a lot of assumptions that come down to "well BBM wouldn't change the mechanics of the role without telling us" or "there is no universe in which two unknowing scum members couldn't figure out that the other is, in fact, scum"

[Elieson]

3 minutes ago, CT075 said:

what else is mafia neighbor doing in this game?

Picking a god, and praying, that if they're reaching out to another player, that the other neighbor won't just immediately post in thread "I just got a message from XYZ saying that they're claiming scumteam RAT/BAT" and securing a lynch that isn't their own faction.

Your line of thinking is the only reason why scum would not out that they're a [Neighbor] or [Neighbor + ??], which implies that you are super confident that the role of Neighbor is uniquely defined for this game.

1 minute ago, CT075 said:

I've offered at least two scenarios (scum and Boron both shot Bartozio or scum!Boron chose to idle the factional kill) and you seem to think that neither one is remotely possible. So are you going to offer an opposing theory, or are you just spreading confusion?

I can see a world in which scum + Boron same-targeted, but I don't really see why they'd have shot Bartozio and not like, Weapons (who's been fairly town as far as the history of the game's been concerned), or Jamie (same), when Bartozio and I have been consistently in the upper tier of lynch options for a while.

I'm kinda doubting the scum!Boron situation, because my role (and what I've outed) make things incredibly weird. Scum!Boron should have knowingly had two shots last night (and nothing else). In what world would Scum!Boron shooting Bartozio, be better for her than shooting Bartozio + literally anybody else?

I think both are possible, I just see glaring questions with each possibility.

13 hours ago, CT075 said:

I remember seeing this as N3 started and thinking that the game can't be that easy, but with Bartozio flip I kinda like this thinking. "Give a townie a gun" a hilarious scum role (maybe too swingy) if it's real.

Because you're voting for me, then you are acting under the assumption that my shot last night failed and/or I same-shot with Boron and/or that I'm lying about my gift to Boron which is essentially impossible. Do you think that it's more likely that my role either foregoes my ability to shoot if I give away a gun? Do you think that it's more likely that I Idled my shot? Do you think that it's more likely that Town!Boron & Scum!Me both opted to shoot Bartozio last night?