OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

This was in anticipation of arguments to let Mist use the staff for extra EXP.

And what's the problem with that? There are up to three levels in that thing for her, in around 15 turns worth of healing. If not to raise Mist, what else is it good for besides the usual necessary portions (which she'll be taking part in)?

If you want the CEXP from the center island, then Ulki and Janaff can ideally wipe out Micaiah's island with the exception of the BK.

Great. How does Rhys get the MAG to reach them all the way over there with Physic? And if he manages to tag them, from a position that Mist would be unable to do the same, what exactly did we just gain by saving Ulki/Janaff from healing themselves with a Concoction? Because that's really all that it's worth.

Strategies are still strategies, regardless of growths. If I need Ike and Haar to juggernaut in 3-4, however many levels of growths that they will obtain before then will not make them impervious to damage (especially that Wyrmslayer SM and the Elfire sages). If I need Oscar to pass through enemies on the LHS of 3-3, however many levels of growths will not allow him to survive 3 attacks with previous damage.

There will be endless examples where growths don't make a difference, but there are also examples where they do. And again, the concept of 0% growths pushes you into a play style that diverges sharply from normal growths the further that you get into the game. You largely ignore growth units, something that makes sense in a scenario where they have no prospects, but is completely illogical in a game where stats go up with levels.

If you've ever needed to connect an attack with 77 disp hit, you're also venturing into double digit fail percentage zone. I do not have savestates and infinite time; I can't afford to waste my time relying on strategies likely to fail on top of planning the strategies in the first place. A strategy is not usually a particular sequence of actions executed the same way on every attempt; if we go by that definition, then any strategy is liable to fail a considerable portion of the time unless every unit has 100 hit and faces 0 crit, on top of not relying on any skill % procs.

I don't think that you are following my broader point, here.

Your strategies are often so precise that there is little or no buffer for failure. It's true that for any one particular sequence of moves that depends on sub-100% HIT rates or listed crit or what have you, there is a non-zero chance that the whole thing falls apart. For one particular sequence, it can be quite high. But take a step back and look at it from the perspective of turn counts: there are a lot more successful paths to a 7-turn of 1-4 than there are a 6-turn of the same map. In terms of the chance to whiff 77 displayed HIT, those situations mostly just convert into adding a turn or more to the clear, aka a slightly different but still successful run.

We aren't dealing with a unit that gets 3HKO'ed at moderate hit rates needing to survive three hits in a row in order to pull something off, or something similarly reset-failure-prone. If that's the kind of thing that your Rhys > Mist proof relies on, don't expect that people will agree that it has a large effect on the tier list. But we won't know how reasonable or absurd that it is until you show just few or many miracles have to happen in order to build the case for Rhys's range being a significant thing.

I am pretty skeptical, given what I've seen so far.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Interceptor

[Fenrir]

Looks like we're not going to avoid this healer bullshit. The difference between the two of them is entirely on the margins, but there is a difference between them. Advantages that Mist has over Rhys:

• Water is better than Fire. They both give +ATK, but +DEF beats a minor HIT boost.
  
• Mist has her own promotion item. The chance of Rhys getting to third tier are non-existent. This gives her stat boosts and Canto.
  
• Mist's Bond supports are better. Rhys and Mist share +5 Titania, but Mist can make Ike an honorary Swordmaster (+10 crit/dodge), and Boyd is slightly better as well with Killer and forges. The Jill bond is probably not relevant.
  
• Mist is easier to move with scrubs, and easier to Rescue. Rhys cannot be shoved by anyone with less than 7 con, which includes Soren, Rolf, and untransformed Janaff. He also cannot be rescued by anyone with less than 11 wt, which means Mia, Rolf,. and untransformed Janaff cannot bail him out.
  
• Mist is +1 MV over him in tier 2 (in tier 3 it's a +3 MV blowout). She's basically superior at 1-range shenanigans, because of an easier time keeping up with the main force (Recover eliminates the MAG differential). This additionally makes it easier to keep in range of her support partner.
  
• She's more durable because of having an easier time getting out of the doubled/OHKOed danger zone. This is especially true for the (T) version. If anyone complains that healers shouldn't get attacked, I will ignore you. It's obviously undesirable to have healers taking hits, especially in Routs. But. When the shit hits the fan it's better to have someone who can be exposed to one moderately dangerous enemy, than someone who can't be exposed to anything except a mage.
  

On the other side of the coin, advantages that Rhys has over Mist:

• +10 MAG over Mist at base. This makes no difference for anything in Part 3 except +5 to Physic range and +10 to healing, but it's something. In Part 4, the extra range is diminished due to Mist's MAG closing the gap, but he'll still have better reach with Rescue etc.
  
• Better at accurate weakening for the most part, due to hitting RES with a good MAG stat.
  
• access to Purge for Part 4, maybe (has to share with Sanaki and Micaiah).
  
• Rhys can go to a different army than Greil's.
  

That's really about it, as far as I can think of. I personally come down on the side of Mist > Rhys, I find her advantages more useful over the long term.

MIST

Water > Fire is not a HUGE difference, only in Titan's saddlebags does it matter.

Mist's "own promotion item" actually hurts her performance on 4-4.

I'm sure mist will be standing next to Ike alot, a frontliner and a healer don't and shouldn't stand next to each other.

Mist can be shoved, but unless shoved with 5 people doesn't reach as far as Rhys does with physic, and only 3 people cannot shove Rhys, Physic > being shoved.

+1 move, but again, -5 on the physic Rhys will bust out the physic if he needs to reach a unit a long way away.

I thought it was funny in the movie airplane when the shit hit the fan.

RHYS

No difference, except for the things it makes a difference for? lol...

More accuracy/damage and access to Purge makes him better in combat.

Utility FTW

I already said that the difference between them was on the margins, and in fact chose that wording for a specific reason, so it's a waste of keystrokes to complain to me about how such and such a point is minor. You may as well be grousing that I wrote it in English.

- Water is better than Fire. End of story, fin. If you are saying "the difference is minor", you are saying "I agree with everything you said, Interceptor". DEF is situational? HIT is more situational. Unless you disagree with that, what's the problem?

- Mist being stuck on the bottom floor in 4-4 because of an early promo just means that you choose between Canto in 4-1, or second floor Mist in 4-4. Rhys has no such choice, this is an advantage no matter which way you slice it.

- Bonds are obviously relevant in situations where Mist would not be attacked, or where we don't care if she's attacked. Yours is a question that basically answers itself. Mist's Bond support with Ike can make him immune for a Thunder Mage crit, for example, and her bonus to someone like Boyd would be relevant in the situation where enemies can get to him, but not to her. It doesn't even need to take place on Enemy Phase, this is a Player Phase bonus as well.

- Having to rescue a healer does not imply that the player made a mistake. It implies that the player wants to get the healer out of harm's way, or otherwise move them, which you'll note is not the same thing. I can have Mist run up to heal someone, and then have someone pick her up or shove her out of the way.

- +1 MV in tier 2 is not negated by staff range. Mist can more easily keep up with her support partner, Physic doesn't negate that at all.

- Durability is not a non-issue. This is something that I'd never expect to hear from the Pope, who leaves few tactical maneuvers off the table. The fact that I can intentionally expose Mist to an enemy, but not Rhys, is an advantage for Mist.

Rhys needs Physic healing to be pretty important in order to be better than Mist, and I don't buy it.

saddlebags...

Let's see, we can make a unit a slight bit better for an easy map, or make them immensely worse for a really hard map, how is this an advantage "any way you slice it"?

+5/10 crit or dodge for Boyd, who has bad crit and shouldn't get the killer axe, or for Ike, who ORKO's the shit out of things. Why is this important??

Oh yeah i know what you mean, i love wasting Mia or a Hawks turn rescuing mist...Rolf on 3-P ballista is nice, I think if someone is being rescued they're gonna be in range, Rolf with mist on his back gets his face torn off.

And who exactly is getting Mist's support, oh yes i remember it's best to give her to Oscar/Titans saddlebags.

unless the unit has 18 spd this is not a big deal, and it's hard to work levels into this.

So to me Mist's greatest advantage is being able to take attacks, My favorite attribute for healers(not). This is hardly an advantage because you should be good enough if your playing on HM to take into account what your doing.

[RNG Princess]

Actually Mist can survive a little better with shade, especially if you give provoke to Ike. Most of the attention will be drawn to Ike if he has provoke, and she's more likely to have better speed than Rhys and enemies usually divert the attention from the provoke character if the shade character can be doubled by them (Mist(T) benefits from this). I doubt Ilyana really needs shade, and you have two after 3-3 anyways might as well try it. She can reach level 10 so she can promote on 4-1 while playing efficiently, she will need to spam heal a lot though.

BTW Rhys/Mist can benefit from unlock staff's +3speed boost for enemy phase, but only if you transfered it with Ilyana and have someone to trade with.

saddlebags...

Let's see, we can make a unit a slight bit better for an easy map, or make them immensely worse for a really hard map, how is this an advantage "any way you slice it"?

You have Laura, Rhys, Micaiah, Mist, Elincia, and possible healing candidates like Bastian, Pelleas, Soren, Ilyana, and Callil.

There is at least one healer for every route. Rhys and Laura have the option to go to any of the three routes, its not that hard having Laura or Rhys be a second healer for Ike's route. Canto Mist actually helps a lot in 4-1, with torch staff, high move, canto and sol.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

MIST

Water > Fire is not a HUGE difference, only in Titan's saddlebags does it matter.

Mist's "own promotion item" actually hurts her performance on 4-4.

Not much. If you are doing the LEA sleep + die thing then Mist can run along the bottom healing Titania and staying out of range of enemies (canto helps). And she can use recover for full healing. And +1 def is probably making a difference at some point.

I'm sure mist will be standing next to Ike alot, a frontliner and a healer don't and shouldn't stand next to each other.

Why never? 3-1 is pretty crowded at the beginning and 23 speed is insufficient for swordies and warriors. Also his mt is insufficient for a 2HKO on generals. Any of that Mist can help out with. Ettard + Mist bonus + his starting skill and that is 35 crit against low-mid teens luck. It's better than most other units are doing at this point. Mist walks up, heals someone, Ike walks up next to her and attacks. If it dies, others move forward and nothing nearby is alive to attack Mist. If it doesn't die, someone else kills it, fewer units move forward and Mist is still safe. It's not like it is impossible to pull these things off frequently without putting Mist at risk. And these things can help you go faster.

RHYS

No difference, except for the things it makes a difference for? lol...

More accuracy/damage and access to Purge makes him better in combat.

Better in combat doesn't actually mean all that much. He has only 6 move so I doubt he's even seeing much combat. Purge isn't coming until rather late and Micaiah may have burned it in 3-13. What is Purge doing in part 4? 3HKOing, mainly, which doesn't actually do much. Sanaki > Rhys for damage with the thing, too.

saddlebags...

Let's see, we can make a unit a slight bit better for an easy map, or make them immensely worse for a really hard map, how is this an advantage "any way you slice it"?

+5/10 crit or dodge for Boyd, who has bad crit and shouldn't get the killer axe, or for Ike, who ORKO's the shit out of things. Why is this important??

Oh yeah i know what you mean, i love wasting Mia or a Hawks turn rescuing mist...Rolf on 3-P ballista is nice, I think if someone is being rescued they're gonna be in range, Rolf with mist on his back gets his face torn off.

Who is trying to carry her without saviour? Rescue ability, particularly in non-canto units, is primarily used for take + drop. Horse picks up Mist, runs somewhere. Rolf comes along and take + drop to get Mist off that horse and allow a heal next turn. Having Rolf carry Mist around seems downright silly. And Ike fails to ORKO plenty before 3-2, and even after he has his moments with speed issues. Mist gives him a better chance to OHKO that which he doesn't double.

So to me Mist's greatest advantage is being able to take attacks, My favorite attribute for healers(not). This is hardly an advantage because you should be good enough if your playing on HM to take into account what your doing.

Are you saying it is 100% impossible to come up with a strategy in which a healer getting attacked (if it can survive) is the optimal strategy? Why is it impossible? I admit that it is rather unlikely for a rout map, but on other types of maps I don't see why not. Being able to heal from anywhere with recover without worrying about being KOd by a breath of wind is beneficial because it gives you more freedom to create strategies that aren't held back by a guy that is ORKOd by nearly everything. Of course you are "good enough" to prevent a unit from getting attacked. But if allowing my healer to be attacked gives me the freedom to shave a turn (or remove some element of luck) then it is undeniably an advantage.

[Anouleth]

For all that you mention Mist's lower constitution as an advantage, it is a double edged sword. Mist herself can shove precious few people, and nobody at all post-promotion. Rhys can shove untransformed Ulki and Shinon. The only good person Mist can shove is Mia, although I guess post-promotion she can help with rescue-drop shenanigans, for what it's worth.

[Narga_Rocks]

For all that you mention Mist's lower constitution as an advantage, it is a double edged sword. Mist herself can shove precious few people, and nobody at all post-promotion. Rhys can shove untransformed Ulki and Shinon. The only good person Mist can shove is Mia, although I guess post-promotion she can help with rescue-drop shenanigans, for what it's worth.

Being able to get shoved or rescue dropped is more important than being able to shove. You have enough scrubs that chances are you don't need your healer to shove. They, however, are your only healers.

Also, when does shinon ever need to be shoved? And at the most Ulki would only need shoving on the first turn.

[Anouleth]

Being able to get shoved or rescue dropped is more important than being able to shove. You have enough scrubs that chances are you don't need your healer to shove. They, however, are your only healers.

Also, when does shinon ever need to be shoved? And at the most Ulki would only need shoving on the first turn.

If Rhys has tons better Physic range and there's clearly not a shortage of the thing, I'm inclined to say he doesn't need much in the way of shoving.

We cannot always have Brom or Kyza sitting around to shove. We cannot always spare a deployment slot so we can have a good shover sitting around. And if we can, then Rhys not being able to be shoved by a handful of characters is a non-issue.

The question is not 'when does Shinon need to be shoved'. I could just as well ask 'when does Soren need to shove Mist'. The fact remains that it's an option available to Rhys that does not exist for Mist.

[Fenrir]

Also, when does shinon ever need to be shoved? And at the most Ulki would only need shoving on the first turn.

If he needs one more move to reach a boss or like the last enemy on a rout stage, if he Ko's them that is.

[RNG Princess]

If Rhys has tons better Physic range and there's clearly not a shortage of the thing, I'm inclined to say he doesn't need much in the way of shoving.

We cannot always have Brom or Kyza sitting around to shove. We cannot always spare a deployment slot so we can have a good shover sitting around. And if we can, then Rhys not being able to be shoved by a handful of characters is a non-issue.

The question is not 'when does Shinon need to be shoved'. I could just as well ask 'when does Soren need to shove Mist'. The fact remains that it's an option available to Rhys that does not exist for Mist.

Probably in 3-P and 3-4 if you want to heal npc laguz with Mist.

Rhys probably needs more shoving than to shove around with his 6 move after physic staff breaks just to keep up.

[dondon151]

Like I have reiterated many times, you do not need to break Physic to make it useful.

A certain 3-4 strategy requires Rhys to be shoved 4 times so that he can Physic allies on turn 3. Now, I know how much of a big deal having 9/9 WT/con is, but imagine how many more shoves it would take for Mist to do the same thing.

Edited July 14, 2010 by dondon151

[Fenrir]

I still don't get why this is an arguement, it's like arguing for the General with unGeneral like growths, ex: Meg, no one ever stands up for meg, so why for mist??

How is one more movement and a couple more speed even close to 10 more magic and actual damage, he does nice work on Armours.

[dondon151]

How is one more movement and a couple more speed even close to 10 more magic and actual damage, he does nice work on Armours.

I am not inclined to agree that Rhys does "nice work" on anything. He is limited pretty much to 30-32 atk for a long time, and in 3-4 the only enemies that 2HKOs are warriors, snipers, and DKs. Generals are forever a 3HKO. Granted, that is a lot better than Mist doing 6-9 HP damage against warriors depending on str procs and supports and worse against everything else. If 26 str Ike does 2x with Steel Blade against a 3-8 general, Rhys could finish up the KO with Ellight.

The only way to improve Rhys's offense is to transfer an 8 MT Light forge from the DB (i.e. waste of space and money) and keep his support in range at all times. Even then he only reaches 35-36 atk, which still misses 2HKO on most generals in 3-8, for example.

[Fenrir]

17-18 on Generals in 3-1 is pretty nice to me, that's enough for somebody to finish it up.

[RNG Princess]

Like I have reiterated many times, you do not need to break Physic to make it useful.

A certain 3-4 strategy requires Rhys to be shoved 4 times so that he can Physic allies on turn 3. Now, I know how much of a big deal having 9/9 WT/con is, but imagine how many more shoves it would take for Mist to do the same thing.

Unnecessary shoving, I'd rather not have those 2/3/4 shovebots and use actual fighters to help clear the way, unless I'm missing a point. I prefer Rhys using mend staff on the npcs than burn a physic use on Haar, unless he can't self heal with concoction.

Also 3-10 and 3-11 and maybe 3-E depend on physic staff, if you've been burning uses on physic staff during chapters like 3-4 the staff is going to break.

I still don't get why this is an arguement, it's like arguing for the General with unGeneral like growths, ex: Meg, no one ever stands up for meg, so why for mist??

How is one more movement and a couple more speed even close to 10 more magic and actual damage, he does nice work on Armours.

Except he's supposed to be healing and he lags behind unless he uses physic staff.

Besides Interceptor pretty much summed it up.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Unnecessary shoving, I'd rather not have those 2/3/4 shovebots and use actual fighters to help clear the way, unless I'm missing a point. I prefer Rhys using mend staff on the npcs than burn a physic use on Haar, unless he can't self heal with concoction.

I will show you once the time comes. It will all make sense.

Also 3-10 and 3-11 and maybe 3-E depend on physic staff, if you've been burning uses on physic staff during chapters like 3-4 the staff is going to break.

I used the staff twice on 3-4.

[RNG Princess]

I will show you once the time comes. It will all make sense.

Ok I'll wait :).

[Fenrir]

Your not exactly "burning" through it, one or two uses here and there is fine, you can steal one from zihark in 3-7 if it's that big of a deal.

So 1 more move is what this is all about? ALL 9 MOVE UNITS INTO HIGH OR TOP TIER ASAP!

[Shadow Mir]

Your not exactly "burning" through it, one or two uses here and there is fine, you can steal one from zihark in 3-7 if it's that big of a deal.

Why would I want to take a physic from the DB?

[Fenrir]

Why would I want to take a physic from the DB?

they get two?

[Narga_Rocks]

they get two?

True, but they don't get #2 until 3-13. I'd assume that people are worried about lacking one in 3-12. I suppose it is bound to help out at least a little.

[Florete]

I still don't get why this is an arguement, it's like arguing for the General with unGeneral like growths, ex: Meg, no one ever stands up for meg, so why for mist??

...What? How did that make sense?

How is one more movement and a couple more speed even close to 10 more magic and actual damage, he does nice work on Armours.

As stated, damage is worth little. The main utility of the two is through healing. Mist can heal fine with a Mend, so Rhys being able to heal more is worth very little as well. Physic range is all the extra Mag is really worth, and that is currently being debated.

[Soren37]

If it's Physic range, then Rhys is on top because of the extra 5 squares he's reaching. He'll also heal 33 HP right off the bat, compared to Mist's 23 HP. Once both of them start gaining levels (impractical for efficiency, but practical for the argument), then Rhys is always winning with Physic range, as his 20/10 MAG is the same as Mist's 20/20 MAG stat.

However, we're not always using the Physic, so we revert to cheaper, close-range staffs. Yes, this may put your healers at risk, but that's why you have them behind everyone else. Also, you don't just have to wall directly in front of them. Have a healer, a space, and your tank and your healer's perfectly fine from bows/magic, except for siege and the longbow, which are both fairly inaccurate.

However, if you do find yourself in a situation where you have no Physic and you need to heal someone or lose them, then Mist is your better option, as she can reach the faster (+1 MOV), but Rhys has the better Avo (49 to 46), which probably means they're still being hit. 3-P's lowest hit is 109 from a Short Spear, meaning that Rhys is facing a 67.6% true hit, while Mist has a 72.25% true chance, which may be a bit risky, seeing as they'll most likely be killed in a gory way. Rhys is 2RKO'd by the same Halb, while Mist is also 2RKO'd, meaning that if they get hit by anyone else, the enemies hit rates are going to improve, and you have a dead healer on your hands.

Seeing as combat doesn't matter for them, I won't go into too much detail, except that Rhys > Mist. Mist has swords and low STR, Rhys has magic, good MAG and targets RES. The only good situation for Mist is to kill a mage, as she won't be hurt, but she can attempt to 2RKO a mage.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Soren37

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Quick question: what is the Hammerne usually used on?

[dondon151]

I would hazard to say Rescue. I could see it being used on braves or Hammer, though.

[Interceptor]

Tarvos is a great weapon to use it on, as well.