OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

Would someone be so kind to explain to me why Reyson is above Haar?

Snarky response: because Red Fox of Fire said so. This is one of the great, recurring battles on this tier list. Here's what happens: I bring up any number of points WRT Haar's flying utility being better than a heron with only five chapters that matter prior to Endgame, RFoF activates Pavise and nothing happens.

Serious answer: Sorry, I am bad at these.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Snarky response: because Red Fox of Fire said so. This is one of the great, recurring battles on this tier list. Here's what happens: I bring up any number of points WRT Haar's flying utility being better than a heron with only five chapters that matter prior to Endgame, RFoF activates Pavise and nothing happens.

Serious answer: Sorry, I am bad at these.

Not to mention that those five chapters are among the easiest chapters in the game. I honestly believe that Rafiel > Reyson on the grounds that Rafiel helps his team more based on the sheer difficulty of the chapters that he's in. I dare you guys to say that 1-E, 4-1, and 4-4 are easier than 3-5 (easy), 3-8 (still easy), 3-10 (really easy), 4-2 (still pretty easy) and 4-5 (well, this might be a challenge, but Tibarn could easily solo this map with no problems). I honestly don't think that Reyson is making the game that much easier, and having only one unit to canto for several turns unless he wastes time with grass or stones isn't helping his case much.

[grandjackal]

I feel arguing dancers/heron is like arguing what came first, the chicken or the egg deal. One hand, it's the reason of the dancer/heron that we can get that sort of utility, yet it's clear that dancing/heroning certain units gets us more a benefit out of it (For example, if Haar is transporting Ike towards a capture point, why WOULDN'T we galdr him?). Haar makes the best use of Galdr, yet we can't have Galdr without herons. Who then gets credit for what happens with the galdr? The heron for giving us Galdr, or Haar because without him, the galdr is not being put to the best of use?

Thus, why I hate arguing over herons.

As for Miccy and Zihark, I feel that early part 1 with Thani (Gets the 1-3 boss out of the way, great chip in 1-4 which is a route map so helping kill things faster while helping people avoid counters is great, I'd argue that Thani bombs in 1-6-1 is more helpful than Zihark being the 5th wheel to Jill/Volug/Sothe/Taur), sacrifice in the early portions (I know for a fact it's important in 1-1), and Physic in part 3 I feel simply outshines Zihark just being the childproofing for the tier 1 units.

[Florete]

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU TAKE ZIHARK OUT OF HIGH NARGA YOU FUCKING MOD POWER ABUSER IF SOMEONE SENSIBLE WAS RUNNING THE LIST THEN NONE OF THIS WOULD HAPPEN BUT IT'S NARGA THE HORNY MOD,INTERCEPTOR THE DOUCHE,AND RFOF THE BISEXUAL WEABOO CHICK! YOU JUST LOWERED HIM BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE TITS YOU SKIRT CHASING PRICKS AND YOU ONLY LIKE THAT OTHER SWORDMASTER BECAUSE OF SOME CUTSCENE WHERE SHE HAD IMPLANTS!ALSO,PENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENIS.

Heyheyhey, I'm an otaku. Not a weeaboo. Yes, there is a difference. If you want me to explain I will.

Anyway, regarding Reyson vs Haar, I've removed Pavise so feel free to drop him argue away. I still have a hard time seeing Haar as the best character in the game, but meh, part of why I stopped controlling the tier list is to see where it would go.

[dondon151]

I'm also in favor of Reyson dropping.

If we compared Reyson to Haar in who saves more turns, I'd say Haar has no trouble winning. Haar gets credit for low turning 3-2, 3-3 (especially 3-3; this could potentially take 3, 4 more turns without Haar), 3-4, and then gets partial credit for low turning his shared part 3 maps with Reyson. In 3-5, Haar hits the OHKO with Horseslayer while Oscar does not and Gatrie does not have the mobility to match such a feat. Even if you need Reyson to have Heather safely steal the Energy Drop, you still need Haar to clear the map in 2 turns. In 3-8, 3-10, and 3-E, Reyson facilitates clearing the chapter maybe 1 or 2 turns faster in each, but Haar gets the greatest exposure to enemies due to not being constrained to the ground (Titania) and not having to transform (Ulki, Janaff). You need Haar for a fast clear of 3-11 (I did it in 5 turns).

Then in part 4 maps, Haar does great in Micaiah's route, with Horseslayer access in 4-P and ignoring desert terrain in 4-3. Reyson is important in shaving turns in 4-2, but you can probably 1 turn 4-5 with good use of the Rescue staff. He's also not the heron of choice for 4-E, because Rafiel probably does a better job in shaving turns than he does.

I won't deny that I've found Reyson useful. But I've not yet encountered a point where I felt that this game would be significantly more difficult to clear without Reyson than without, for example, Haar, Ike, Volug, or even Sothe. (By the way, this is me implying that Reyson should go below all of these characters.)

Edited July 28, 2010 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

Not to mention that those five chapters are among the easiest chapters in the game. I honestly believe that Rafiel > Reyson on the grounds that Rafiel helps his team more based on the sheer difficulty of the chapters that he's in. I dare you guys to say that 1-E, 4-1, and 4-4 are easier than 3-5 (easy), 3-8 (still easy), 3-10 (really easy), 4-2 (still pretty easy) and 4-5 (well, this might be a challenge, but Tibarn could easily solo this map with no problems). I honestly don't think that Reyson is making the game that much easier, and having only one unit to canto for several turns unless he wastes time with grass or stones isn't helping his case much.

But it's not like Rafiel's helping that much more than Reyson before endgame, either. 1-8, he starts in the northwest section with Volug and Nailah. 1-E gets pretty cramped at times (I don't know much of anything else to say). 4-1, Fog of War. 4-4 is Rafiel's best chapter, but his contributions in his other 3 pre-endgame chapters are questionable.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[dondon151]

Rafiel is pretty good in 1-E, but it seems like no one has figured out how to use him there.

[Ether]

Heyheyhey, I'm an otaku. Not a weeaboo. Yes, there is a difference. If you want me to explain I will.

Anyway, regarding Reyson vs Haar, I've removed Pavise so feel free to drop him argue away. I still have a hard time seeing Haar as the best character in the game, but meh, part of why I stopped controlling the tier list is to see where it would go.

I very well know that,of course. The entirety of that rant was a jest,I assure you,merely designed to bring a light chuckle to those who read it,and remind us of days long passed. I apologize if I offended you in any way.

[Florete]

I very well know that,of course. The entirety of that rant was a jest,I assure you,merely designed to bring a light chuckle to those who read it,and remind us of days long passed. I apologize if I offended you in any way.

No worries, I know that. If I had been taking your rant seriously my response would have been much different.

[Ether]

No worries, I know that. If I had been taking your rant seriously my response would have been much different.

Ah, I see. Well, I am glad for that. I'd rather remain on your good side if at all possible. ^_^

[Fenrir]

If haar isn't #1 on tier list Ike should be, a utility unit or support unit doesn't "make things happen" a unit like the Imighty haar does.

[Narga_Rocks]

No worries, I know that. If I had been taking your rant seriously my response would have been much different.

Even I figured out that she wasn't serious, Ether. And we all know how good I am at detecting sarcasm on the internet (I swear I'm really good when I can actually hear people's voices. Honest).

And people are ignoring Ike (T). Reyson isn't at the top. Well, I suppose if you just look at RD without PoR then that's different.

Anyway, I'll be applying my own Pavise to the Reyson thing until I stop feeling bad about lowering him. It sounds like dondon wants Sothe > Reyson in high tier. I'm so not ready to do that. Ike > Haar > Reyson > Volug I could perhaps live with. Haar > Ike is tough for me, too.

[grandjackal]

I think Sothe should go above Reyson as well, and the only reason I'd hesitate with Ike is due to actually having and Endgame, but that would be my only hesitation when I remember that Haar pretty much is the jesus of part 3.

Edited July 29, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[dondon151]

Well, transfer units included, I think my ordering of the top units would look something like this (no tier breaks included, though):

Ike (T)
Haar (N/T)
Ike (N)
Titania (T)
Mia (T)
Sothe
Volug
Reyson

Sothe vs. Volug is a different comparison for me to firmly choose a side, but I'm pretty steadfast in my opinion of the rest of the order.

Edited July 29, 2010 by dondon151

[Fayt Zelpher]

I'm just wondering based on a technicality if anyone has considered the possibility of the Haar Strength transfer? Obviously, he'd need an energy drop and a band to get there, but I certainly think that it's something that needs to be considered. He has 8 points to gain (6 with a drop) in 9 levels and has a 60% growth (65% with a band). With so few units that are in this range, I really do think that a transfer run would certainly want to give precedence to this possibility. Of the units that are borderline and might otherwise need a drop to get to caps, most of them are fairly low tiered units in RD (Rolf and Astrid come to mind). I would certainly like this possibility to be entertained. And if this is allowed, I could definitely see Haar (T) > Ike (N).

[dondon151]

In FE9 fixed mode, if you BEXP Haar 1 EXP point at a time (not exactly the best way to use your time, and I'm not sure if this list was made with fixed mode BEXP abuse in mind) with a +def item or band, he's guaranteed to cap str, skl, and def. I don't actually think this would affect his position though, since he's competing with Ike (T) (whom he may or may not beat with the transfer, depending on how you weigh 3-P, 3-1, 4-1, 4-4, and 4-E) and Ike (N). At this point, it's just "is Haar cutting down turns with flying more valuable than Ike raping face at combat." Even if you got him the str, skl, and def transfer, that just means that he'll require a bit less BEXP to ram his tier 2 spd cap, and he'll take the 3-3 Master Crown anyway. And after that point, he still has to deal with his relatively poor tier 2 spd cap and his slow EXP gain rate plus 30% spd growth.

Edited July 29, 2010 by dondon151

[Junkhead]

Are the stats that are most likely to cap considered when talking about transfers? Haar does really good with an Str & Spd transfer.

[Fenrir]

Even I figured out that she wasn't serious, Ether. And we all know how good I am at detecting sarcasm on the internet (I swear I'm really good when I can actually hear people's voices. Honest).

somehow i struggle to believe this...because of the fact that your a mod abuser who loves penis.

Dracoknights up for debate(why wont anyone mention jill?) Haar should be greater than Ike(n). and as soul said str + spd is nice, takes a speedwing or two but...bexp abuse or watever will help him out, thus i think Haar(t-spd) should be in god tier below Ike, could Haar at least be moved above Reyson? in the order of...Ike > Haar> Reyson > Volug? I would perfer sothe at top of high, followed by Volug who would be above Reyson. AND PUT JILL IN THAT FRIGGIN TIERshe will give u bj and make u sammich...this is why im arguing for her

[dondon151]

Haar can't BEXP abuse his spd up in FE9 fixed mode. Well, technically he can, but he can only get +1 spd every 2 levels at best, which still puts him a good 5 points away from capping. Better check your maths before you go around making erroneous claims.

Either way, it wouldn't really make a difference. If you're assuming str, skl, def Haar (T), he starts out with skl capped and is 1 point away from capping def. He can get close to a level on 2-P by taking the bosskill, and then you can just flood him with abundant part 2 BEXP in 2-E. Def is his second highest growth by a huge margin. Once he caps that, spd is tied with HP for his third highest growth. Consider that you'll also have 3-2, 3-3, and the 3-4 base to give him (B)EXP to help him cap his str and spd, and then give him the Master Crown to rape face.

I mean, I firmly believe that Haar (N/T) is better than Ike (N), and maybe even Ike (T). It probably won't be immediately obvious until I start recording my part 3 videos, but despite the fact that 25 spd Ike is a juggernaut throughout the entirety of part 3, I didn't actually end up using him that much. He was clutch when I needed someone with reliable offense, but any strategy aiming at low turning part 3 chapters will attempt to abuse Haar as much as possible. Ike is just along for the ride. Now, Ike (T) is pretty amazing in 3-P and 3-1, where Ike (N) sometimes has trouble doubling, and that could tip the scales.

Edited July 29, 2010 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

Although if we're going to mention 3-P and 3-1, don't forget that Haar shaves a lot of turns off 2-E by killing Ludveck. You can do it with Elincia, but not as reliably.

[dondon151]

Haar only ORKOs Ludveck if you BEXP him 2 spd procs, though.

[-Cynthia-]

Give Haar the 2-3 speedwing. Puts Haar at 22 AS, Ludveck apparently has 18.

[Fenrir]

Haar can't BEXP abuse his spd up in FE9 fixed mode. Well, technically he can, but he can only get +1 spd every 2 levels at best, which still puts him a good 5 points away from capping. Better check your maths before you go around making erroneous claims.

Either way, it wouldn't really make a difference. If you're assuming str, skl, def Haar (T), he starts out with skl capped and is 1 point away from capping def. He can get close to a level on 2-P by taking the bosskill, and then you can just flood him with abundant part 2 BEXP in 2-E. Def is his second highest growth by a huge margin. Once he caps that, spd is tied with HP for his third highest growth. Consider that you'll also have 3-2, 3-3, and the 3-4 base to give him (B)EXP to help him cap his str and spd, and then give him the Master Crown to rape face.

I mean, I firmly believe that Haar (N/T) is better than Ike (N), and maybe even Ike (T). It probably won't be immediately obvious until I start recording my part 3 videos, but despite the fact that 25 spd Ike is a juggernaut throughout the entirety of part 3, I didn't actually end up using him that much. He was clutch when I needed someone with reliable offense, but any strategy aiming at low turning part 3 chapters will attempt to abuse Haar as much as possible. Ike is just along for the ride. Now, Ike (T) is pretty amazing in 3-P and 3-1, where Ike (N) sometimes has trouble doubling, and that could tip the scales.

Soul did it.

The transfer makes it so he doesn't need speedwing, Boyd can now take it and rape faces.

aah, your making vids? id like some links. Ike in 3-P/3-1 or a really good boyd?

[dondon151]

Soul did it.

It's not possible. Haar needs to gain spd on all 9 of his level ups. He has 35% spd growth. Even with a weapon and band alteration, that only brings it up to 45%, which is 5% short of the magic number needed to get +spd on every abused BEXP level up.

[Junkhead]

I assume you meant this for me:

Haar can't BEXP abuse his spd up in FE9 fixed mode. Well, technically he can, but he can only get +1 spd every 2 levels at best, which still puts him a good 5 points away from capping. Better check your maths before you go around making erroneous claims.

I didn't claim he would be getting it here, I only asked if the stats a character most likely to cap assume to transfer.

To be honest, I never played Fixed Mode, which is why I might sound clueless.

Either way, it wouldn't really make a difference. If you're assuming str, skl, def Haar (T), he starts out with skl capped and is 1 point away from capping def. He can get close to a level on 2-P by taking the bosskill, and then you can just flood him with abundant part 2 BEXP in 2-E. Def is his second highest growth by a huge margin. Once he caps that, spd is tied with HP for his third highest growth. Consider that you'll also have 3-2, 3-3, and the 3-4 base to give him (B)EXP to help him cap his str and spd, and then give him the Master Crown to rape face.

Well you're saving a Speedwings you could use on Ike or maybe Gatrie.

Being able to BEXP Haar to cap other stats is good, he might really need some more Res.