OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

Not much. If you really need a second Ettard, you're better off forging another Steel Sword.

Well, then that reduces the notable items to be found to the Rescue Staff.

Rhys can nearly replicate it, with the only minor difference being the Def point at B and A, but the exchange is +Hit which can allow her to pull out Poleaxes better.

But is 7 extra Hit even making much of a difference? Also, forged Steel Axes don't have the hit issues Poleaxes do.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Colonel M]

But is 7 extra Hit even making much of a difference? Also, forged Steel Axes don't have the hit issues Poleaxes do.

You're straying from the point.

It means that you can pull out the Poleaxes and be more conservative with your Steel Axe forge. Not that +Def or +Hit seriously makes or breaks Titania either way.

[eclipse]

Does training a unit just for the sake of training a unit count in a tier list discussion?

[nflchamp]

I don't think Mist is going to survive many rounds of combat period. There's no time for healers to get much EXP at the speed we're going.

Also, considering Tanith, my plain Tanith is at --/20/06 after 4-P.

EDIT: Grammar, who needs it?

Edited August 22, 2010 by nflchamp

[Zanarkin]

Does training a unit just for the sake of training a unit count in a tier list discussion?

Are we really doing the whole "optimal units only" and negating the possibility of anyone else being deployed/used? I probably should have brought it up before now, but is that really a good way to do a tier list? It can lead to many conclusions that don't really show the true usefulness of units if you choose to use them.

Judging from that i'd say yes.

[Naglfar]

If I may add my view on how this list should work...

Efficiency. Suddenly this has become synonymous with turncount. From dictionary.com:

1. the state or quality of being efficient; competency in performance.

2. accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort: The assembly line increased industry's efficiency.

3. the ratio of the work done or energy developed by a machine, engine, etc., to the energy supplied to it, usually expressed as a percentage.

4. efficiency apartment.

2. accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort: The assembly line increased industry's efficiency.

minimum expenditure of time and effort

time and effort

Time, in our case, is turncount. Then there's effort. Now, we could all bust our asses using the best possible units and using painfully specific dondon-esque strategies to shave off one or two turns, but is this efficient? It could be argued that it isn't. Saving turns without making things run smoothly and easily for the tier player, who is not perfect, is not an efficient run, that's a low turn run. On the other hand, turtling isn't efficient, because it may make the game easier, but it kills your turncount. We need a balance.

So let's put this definition into practice with a recently mentioned issue, that is, recruiting Aran.

dondon recruited him on turn six, right before clearing the chapter. This requires a fair amount of precise placement and shove-dancing to get Laura to recruit him safely, and the general opinion is that this is a pain to do. Therefore, it's optimal in terms of time, but not quite enough in terms of effort. Our other option is to recruit Aran during the chapter. This is apparently only going to slow us down a turn or two, but on the other hand, the chapter becomes a hell of a lot more simple. We've made things easier, with only a minimal setback to our turncount, which isn't perfect but is still good. With that, we strike more of a balance between time and effort, which, referencing our dictionary definition, sounds more efficient to me. And no, we can't assume Aran isn't recruited.

Secondly, people are having trouble agreeing on how each unit is being used. Now, last I checked, units were tiered according to how they perform when used seriously. I'll address something here:

So what? Is unit B causing the player to complete the game in X+20 turns because he's being dropped and replaced by an empty slot? Or is it because we're just going to use him through the whole game, completely disregarding the fact that his continued use is detrimental?

The player is using the unit seriously, not stupidly. I'm tempted to believe you intentionally misunderstood that. The X+20 turn unit will not be deployed by the tier player past the point they become detrimental, no unit will be. The thing is, it's hard to be detrimental in this game. The only way to have negative utility is to force the rest of the team to slow down to protect that unit, when they're literally better off replacing that unit with nothing. Units should be seen by the turns they save compared to an empty slot, not compared to friggin' Haar. Otherwise, every unit below Upper Mid will be argued against with crap like "oh, but they cost turns so they're dropped after their forced chapters". That does not gauge how well everyone peforms when used optimally. Back to our comparison between our two hypothetical units, X+1 and X+20 (though judging by the implications, the X+1 unit's overall utility wouldn't be negative). If it helps the image, assume it's FE6, and X+1 is Thany while X+20 is Marcus or something like that.

For a couple chapters, X+20 is considerably superior to X+1. However, X+1 then surpasses X+20 for whatever reason, and deploying X+20 becomes detrimental. X+1 can continue to contribute for the rest of the game, and X+20, who is no longer being deployed thanks to being incapable of providing positive utility (at least without extreme difficulty) would have no direct answer to that. However, X+20 may still be better by virtue of their superior utility before they were dropped, and to a lesser extent, the deployment slot they no longer take. Freeing up a slot for a better unit is positive, but in regards to X+1, taking a slot that a better unit could use is not negative. If the unit provides positive utility, them taking that slot is a positive - it's just not as big a positive as it would be if the better unit took it. I would like it if each unit were tiered under the assumption that they're used for as long as they are capable of doing something. Very few of us will ever take, say, Kieran to Endgame, but under this assumption we'll actually be able to discuss this stuff and credit him for whatever minor utility he has past his forced chapters without people saying "but he's not being deployed". This tier list would be very dull, even inaccurate, if we didn't do this.

[RNG Princess]

If I take Astrid to endgame on an "efficient" runthrough I honestly wouldn't mind Kieran.

Also I'll take it to mind to see units long term value not just short term.

I think I'll start with Kyza since I started axing him out from the start.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Time, in our case, is turncount. Then there's effort. Now, we could all bust our asses using the best possible units and using painfully specific dondon-esque strategies to shave off one or two turns, but is this efficient? It could be argued that it isn't. Saving turns without making things run smoothly and easily for the tier player, who is not perfect, is not an efficient run, that's a low turn run. On the other hand, turtling isn't efficient, because it may make the game easier, but it kills your turncount. We need a balance.

OK, seriously. Once a strategy is documented, it no longer requires any effort to execute it (after all, it's just a series of moves). Strategies that took me upwards of 3 hours (like 1-E) to plan out took me 10 minutes to run through on my second attempt.

Also, where does everyone get the impression from that the low turn strats are neither smooth nor easy? Believe me, I am not Vykan, and I can't afford to waste my time resetting until I can get a series of procs with <10% cumulative success to work. Furthermore, I don't even have battle saves, so a chapter has to be done completely in one go for a successful recording. I am not going to resort to questionable strats with a low chance of success if I ever want to get my videos recorded. Colonel M, who has, for the most part, rediscovered my strats on his own (after equally long periods of planning), can attest to the fact that these strats (with some exceptions, due to either the nature of the chapter or the reliance on Wrath), do work with a reasonably high chance of success, i.e. they are efficient under your definition.

In fact, if I had growth buffers, these strats would be infinitely more effective. I'd have HP, def, res growths to buffer durability, spd growths to buffer damage (in the case I couldn't previously double), skl, luk growths to buffer hit rates, and str, mag growths to buffer damage and healing range.

dondon recruited him on turn six, right before clearing the chapter. This requires a fair amount of precise placement and shove-dancing to get Laura to recruit him safely, and the general opinion is that this is a pain to do. Therefore, it's optimal in terms of time, but not quite enough in terms of effort.

It is not difficult at all to place and shove Laura to Aran. Unless you somehow fail at counting tiles, I can assure you that that directing sequence in the video will work every time, and as long as Leo baits Aran on a certain tile, 3 shoves gets Laura to Aran every time.

Our other option is to recruit Aran during the chapter. This is apparently only going to slow us down a turn or two, but on the other hand, the chapter becomes a hell of a lot more simple. We've made things easier, with only a minimal setback to our turncount, which isn't perfect but is still good.

Oh boy. You couldn't be more wrong. To recruit Aran earlier is to work down the LHS, which, starting turn 3, involves no less than 7 enemy units, whom you have to stave off with basically just Sothe and Nolan. You have to make sure that you lure Aran into Laura's range, but still keep her safe. Then, when you do recruit Aran, you have to remove all threats to ensure Laura's safety. This is infinitely more complicated than blocking a chokepoint with Kurth and shoving Laura to Aran on the final turn, when she faces no threat whatsoever.

Again, let me repeat: I will never go for the more complex strategies if a simpler one is possible. That's more memorization and more opportunities to screw up and start over on my part.

The player is using the unit seriously, not stupidly. I'm tempted to believe you intentionally misunderstood that. The X+20 turn unit will not be deployed by the tier player past the point they become detrimental, no unit will be. The thing is, it's hard to be detrimental in this game. The only way to have negative utility is to force the rest of the team to slow down to protect that unit, when they're literally better off replacing that unit with nothing...

You are simply repeating a point that I have already countered with the phrase "opportunity cost."

Edited August 22, 2010 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

This thread is indeed interesting. So interesting, in fact, that before I proposed any changes, this thread was pretty much dead.

Since you apparently don't have the wherewithal to clearly present your case without encasing it in a ball of snark, I'll respond to what you meant to say rather than what you actually did. I hope that you don't mind.

Firstly, this thread doesn't die, it just hibernates. Paperblade said more or less the same thing back in the day, you're just as wrong now as he was then. Discussion comes in waves, generally prompted by some critical mass of people and/or a new angle on an argument.

Secondly, I'd also like to note that an interest in moving units around based on some of your experiences (gee, it was not too long ago that you were moaning and complaining about how nobody listened to you, and now you're here taking credit for the discussion, what a difference a few short days make) does not include a wholesale buy-in to your Optimal Completion Religion. There is, in fact, precious little support for it. What you're likely to see happen instead, is that people use your experiences to inform a broader view of how units should be tiered, such as with Haar or Titania. It's important to keep this in mind.

Finally, I'll just repeat my usual line about optimal tier lists, since you never deign to respond to the point (maybe some day you will surprise me): 100% efficiency is logical and neat, but undesirable from a community discussion standpoint. If doctrinal purity is so important to you, make your own perfect list. You won't find many people willing to burn the village to save it.

[Narga_Rocks]

If doctrinal purity is so important to you, make your own perfect list. You won't find many people willing to burn the village to save it.

Well, he's got kirsche now following him. That's one, anyway. Not sure about Colonel M. Oh, he seemed to insist on his new name in FftF. Since it was FftF, though, I'm not actually certain whether he meant it.

Anyway, yeah, if you want 100% optimal deployment with no deviation ever, make your own list and get out of this one. Red Fox never intended this list to be that way, as near as I could tell. Ninji has claimed co-creator status in the past, and I don't think he meant it to be that way. I don't particularly want to supervise one that assumes that in chapter X only specific units ever get deployed. That's far too rigid. Interceptor's argument about waxing and waning in discussion is pretty much what happens here. I don't see how what you want facilitates that kind of participation. Once you've hammered the list into a reflection of the contributions of units in your playthrough, what more can be done to the list unless someone else wipes that smirk off your face by pulling off something quicker and safer than your playthrough?

Marcus' contributions in his first 10 or so chapters are so great that what most characters provide later on are underwhelming in comparison. My unit A in that example costs you one little turn over the entire game. Think of it as Alan Jr or something who takes one extra turn compared to Alan himself but then replicates his performance exactly. If Alan > Marcus, despite what Marcus does in the first 10 chapters, then why isn't Alan Jr better? Because you lose one little turn making him good enough and the only way to maintain low low turncounts is to never deploy him after chapter 8 or something? That's hardly an indication of how good he is or how much he can contribute. This isn't penalizing Marcus for how bad he may be beyond chapter 10. This is recognizing that some other unit can be good too.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[alfredo094]

"I would certainly like to hear how Orange Juice is better than Soda Pop, besides having 100% Vitamin C and it's healthier for you".

Can we exclude anything else?

That's not what I meant. I meant that +2 move and canto really doesn't mean she is > Mia.

First off, she does double. It's called a Speedwing, and IMO she's quite deserving of it anyway. Secondly, she doesn't even have to double all the time anyhow. Generals are pretty much wiped off the face of the earth in one shot. At the worst it requires a +Atk support which can come from one of Mist or Rhys. She also has access to the Dracoshield and Talisman which cap her Def and Res, thus allowing her to gain +Spd much easier from a BEXP level up once Str caps naturally (a good chance for that too).

How are generals getting wiped off in one shot? Even with a hammer (you need to save 2 uses, but it isn't significant), I doubt that even Boyd will be able to OHKO.

Second, I think giving her a Dracoshield, Speedwing AND a Talisman is a stretch, considering how the two former are so useful. Haar wants a Speedwing too, and Mia could use the Dracoshield even if her avoid is crazy high. By the way, Titania can't get Mia, since she does a great support with Ike. I'll give her Rhys, though. It's not like he can fight that much anyway.

Third, her lol25 speed cap isn't good. Mia's base is 3 points higher than her cap, and with a steel blade she can easily 1RKO half of the enemies on each map, if not more. That means BEXP potential doesn't go far, and her high base level doesn't help.

Fourth, she is overleveled. She gains EXP much slower than all the units in her team. So, even when she caps STR (maybe on the next level, granted for the second one), she is high enough to get a good chunk of your BEXP. A large chunk.

Fifth (and being possibly redundant with this one), her BEXP potential is awful. She has 2 or 3 levels to BEXP (on tier 2) her other stats. Considering we give her the Speedwing, though, then the BEXP is just not worth it, because her cap will stop her even if you don't give her the BEXP.

Titania is doubling. The only rough spot is Part 4.

But she isn''t doubling as well (or in the same consistent way) as Mia is, which pretty much warrant that Mia will have a better offence than Titania.

Well, Giffca and Cain suck against the Sages since they can't counterattack them. While the long-range tomes aren't dangerous, they still need to be killed since this is Rout, and Tanith can do that straight away. Elincia isn't really better or worse. Either way, they ORKO the Sage. In fact, Elincia is probably worse since she needs to use a Tempest Blade to 2HKO. Not only is she using a rare and valuable weapon that we might want to use earlier in Part 4 or later in Endgame, her hit rate is imperfect without a support and she's not necessarily doubling. Her average speed at level 12 is 29.7, so if she's speed screwed, she doesn't double the faster Sages. Tanith (T), on the other hand, can use a dime-a-dozen Javelin forge for perfect hit, and her average speed at level 20/10 is around 32.2, so she has a lower chance of failing to double.

...

I just keep getting owned with the Tanith argument, do I?

I'm not sure what part of 'comparable offense to Naesala' is 'not helping that much'. And yes, she has comparable offense to Naesala, only losing against Swordmasters.

And again...

This is Tanith with transfers we're discussing here. She only needs around level 15 to get 34 speed.

I forgot this. My bad. The level isn't that better, though. I mean, she doesn't use it against Deg, and... dammit.

That's assuming a fairly slow rate of level gain for Tanith.

What would you suggest? And even at that slow rate, she still did fine at Endgame.

Y'know, all this arguing about Tanith (T) is making me see her in a different light now. I think she could even stand to go up to upper mid, or at least drag a few people down. If she gets a strength transfer, she's functionally Naesala 2.0 in 4-P. w/Steel forge, 43mt and doubles everything + horseslayer access + 2-range against 47mt and doubles everything

I can't believe arguing against her actually made me raise my opinion about her... I wonder why I still don't wanna use her though?

Edited August 22, 2010 by alfredo094

[Colonel M]

That's not what I meant. I meant that +2 move and canto really doesn't mean she is > Mia.

I'm afraid that my statement is what you meant, as that is part of the key ingredients that help make her over Mia.

How are generals getting wiped off in one shot? Even with a hammer (you need to save 2 uses, but it isn't significant), I doubt that even Boyd will be able to OHKO.

Titania will whiff 1 KO in 3-4, then it is possible that she can whiff KOes in 3-8. Still, consider that those are the only two times where she will likely whiff, and if you get her promoted by 3-8 (which is very possible with BEXP dump or just crowning her), the KOes shouldn't be missed with a Pocket Mist<tm> support... though after playing that battle I'm a little iffy with using that in some general areas.

Second, I think giving her a Dracoshield, Speedwing AND a Talisman is a stretch, considering how the two former are so useful. Haar wants a Speedwing too, and Mia could use the Dracoshield even if her avoid is crazy high. By the way, Titania can't get Mia, since she does a great support with Ike. I'll give her Rhys, though. It's not like he can fight that much anyway.

Haar gets Part 2's Speedwing. There is also the Skill Book in 2-3 that allows her to cap a stat. It costs a turn more, but likely able to get it.

Mia does rather terrible with the Dracoshield. In 9 out of 10 cases, the investment of a +Def stat booster is best on a unit that is already somewhat durable. In the 10th case, which ironically Titania fits 9 of still, she can use this to cap a stat. The Talisman is also a low demand resource with the only real units that want it for early capping is Nephenee and Lucia, and the former doesn't care and the latter is "lol".

The general goal with Titania receiving these stat boosters is that it helps her one "iffy placement", which is her Spd stat. With Str only 1 away from its cap and Dracoshield and Talisman dumped onto her, Titania has high chances to proc Spd with a BEXP level up. You are not giving these stat boosters to fulfill her "problem areas", per se. You are giving these stat boosters for her to make better use of BEXP.

Third, her lol25 speed cap isn't good. Mia's base is 3 points higher than her cap, and with a steel blade she can easily 1RKO half of the enemies on each map, if not more. That means BEXP potential doesn't go far, and her high base level doesn't help.

You must be playing NM good sir. Mia does not ORKO half the enemies on each map, even with an Ike support many ORKOes are iffy.

Furthermore, the Spd cap is pretty irrelevant. Titania's Spd cap only fails in one general category, and that is the capability of doubling Swordmasters. Given that Swordmasters are rather rare to encounter on the maps to begin with, I do not see what is so groundbreaking by your conclusion that 30 Spd cap > 25 when 25 Spd cap doubles quite a few enemies. Also, let's keep in mind that 3-8 has ~50% of the map with fucking Generals, so nevermind her ORKOing half the map.

Fourth, she is overleveled. She gains EXP much slower than all the units in her team. So, even when she caps STR (maybe on the next level, granted for the second one), she is high enough to get a good chunk of your BEXP. A large chunk.

Fifth (and being possibly redundant with this one), her BEXP potential is awful. She has 2 or 3 levels to BEXP (on tier 2) her other stats. Considering we give her the Speedwing, though, then the BEXP is just not worth it, because her cap will stop her even if you don't give her the BEXP

BEXP on Titania allows the team to increase its versatility, makes low turning things much easier (as wasting 1 Hammer use > 2 Hammer uses), and the point that Titania comes eerily close to naturally reaching the --/20/1 anyway. She needs a little help with BEXP, but BEXP on Titania goes a long way.

Read a couple of play logs. There's Interceptor's, dondon's, and mine that have pretty much used Titania the same way wrt giving her stat boosters, BEXP, etc.

If you want, I can expand more with Titania's advantages, but I'm in the middle of 3-9.

[alfredo094]

I'm afraid that my statement is what you meant, as that is part of the key ingredients that help make her over Mia.

I was not denying Titania those advantages, I mean that I don't think it's worth that much.

Titania will whiff 1 KO in 3-4, then it is possible that she can whiff KOes in 3-8. Still, consider that those are the only two times where she will likely whiff, and if you get her promoted by 3-8 (which is very possible with BEXP dump or just crowning her), the KOes shouldn't be missed with a Pocket Mist<tm> support... though after playing that battle I'm a little iffy with using that in some general areas

I think I adressed this below...

Haar gets Part 2's Speedwing. There is also the Skill Book in 2-3 that allows her to cap a stat. It costs a turn more, but likely able to get it.

She also gets the Sill Book? I mean, if we're giving Titania so many stat boosters, the list should at least reflect it. And just to clarify, when is Titania getting the Speedwing?

Mia does rather terrible with the Dracoshield. In 9 out of 10 cases, the investment of a +Def stat booster is best on a unit that is already somewhat durable. In the 10th case, which ironically Titania fits 9 of still, she can use this to cap a stat. The Talisman is also a low demand resource with the only real units that want it for early capping is Nephenee and Lucia, and the former doesn't care and the latter is "lol".

The general goal with Titania receiving these stat boosters is that it helps her one "iffy placement", which is her Spd stat. With Str only 1 away from its cap and Dracoshield and Talisman dumped onto her, Titania has high chances to proc Spd with a BEXP level up. You are not giving these stat boosters to fulfill her "problem areas", per se. You are giving these stat boosters for her to make better use of BEXP.

I still don't get why Titania get 3 stat boosters (two of which are good on anyone who uses it, and one being in high demand) so that she can get 3 levels of BEXP and having +2 SPD. I dunno how much BEXP that will cost, but I'm assuming that it's at least 1/4 that you've gained until 3-2(?). Ike (especially with transfers) also wants the BEXP, and if he doesn't have the transfers then those stat boosters help him cap too.

Titania will whiff 1 KO in 3-4, then it is possible that she can whiff KOes in 3-8. Still, consider that those are the only two times where she will likely whiff, and if you get her promoted by 3-8 (which is very possible with BEXP dump or just crowning her), the KOes shouldn't be missed with a Pocket Mist<tm> support... though after playing that battle I'm a little iffy with using that in some general areas.

You must be playing NM good sir. Mia does not ORKO half the enemies on each map, even with an Ike support many ORKOes are iffy.

I'm pretty sure that mages, swordmaters, halberdier and warriors are less then half of the map. Sure, Mia doesn't 1RKO ALL of the halberdiers and warriors, but with a steel forge she could have a shot at a critical, and the nones that she doesn't kill are left with so little HP that someone like Rolf could KO them.

Furthermore, the Spd cap is pretty irrelevant. Titania's Spd cap only fails in one general category, and that is the capability of doubling Swordmasters. Given that Swordmasters are rather rare to encounter on the maps to begin with, I do not see what is so groundbreaking by your conclusion that 30 Spd cap > 25 when 25 Spd cap doubles quite a few enemies. Also, let's keep in mind that 3-8 has ~50% of the map with fucking Generals, so nevermind her ORKOing half the map.

By something like, 3-5 or 3-6, even with her 25 SPD Titania doesn't double everything on the map, and that's assuming she reaches her cap. And it doesn't matter if the enemies are generals, everyone except Ike (and maybe not even him) are 2RKOing them. Hammer doesn't have infinite uses, and correct me if 'm wrong but the GMs only have one.

BEXP on Titania allows the team to increase its versatility, makes low turning things much easier (as wasting 1 Hammer use > 2 Hammer uses), and the point that Titania comes eerily close to naturally reaching the --/20/1 anyway. She needs a little help with BEXP, but BEXP on Titania goes a long way.

IIRC hammer has 39 MT against generals, right? o that's 65 ATK against them... so by 3-8 she stops 1RKOing generals with a hammer.... damn. This hammer, Boyd brings it, right?

Read a couple of play logs. There's Interceptor's, dondon's, and mine that have pretty much used Titania the same way wrt giving her stat boosters, BEXP, etc

The list should reflect the resources you use on her. I would like a link, though. Or are their usernames the same on Youtube?

If you want, I can expand more with Titania's advantages, but I'm in the middle of 3-9.

Do if you want.

Edited August 22, 2010 by alfredo094

[Anouleth]

Haar gets Part 2's Speedwing. There is also the Skill Book in 2-3 that allows her to cap a stat. It costs a turn more, but likely able to get it.

She also gets the Sill Book? I mean, if we're giving Titania so many stat boosters, the list should at least reflect it. And just to clarify, when is Titania getting the Speedwing?

Let's slow down a little bit here. Nobody is suggesting that Titania get the Secret Book, the Dracoshield, the Talisman, and the Speedwing. However, Titania-that-doubles is so absurdly useful and powerful that she is without a doubt, the best choice for all of these things since she can use it to ORKO with 9 move. Chances are, she will only need the Wing to double since her natural growth is already pretty high and she will cap strength quickly so we can BEXP her. We will probably give her the Wing that Ilyana brings over from the Dawn Brigade in 3-2.

Mia does rather terrible with the Dracoshield. In 9 out of 10 cases, the investment of a +Def stat booster is best on a unit that is already somewhat durable. In the 10th case, which ironically Titania fits 9 of still, she can use this to cap a stat. The Talisman is also a low demand resource with the only real units that want it for early capping is Nephenee and Lucia, and the former doesn't care and the latter is "lol".

The general goal with Titania receiving these stat boosters is that it helps her one "iffy placement", which is her Spd stat. With Str only 1 away from its cap and Dracoshield and Talisman dumped onto her, Titania has high chances to proc Spd with a BEXP level up. You are not giving these stat boosters to fulfill her "problem areas", per se. You are giving these stat boosters for her to make better use of BEXP.

I still don't get why Titania get 3 stat boosters (two of which are good on anyone who uses it, and one being in high demand) so that she can get 3 levels of BEXP and having +2 SPD. I dunno how much BEXP that will cost, but I'm assuming that it's at least 1/4 that you've gained until 3-2(?). Ike (especially with transfers) also wants the BEXP, and if he doesn't have the transfers then those stat boosters help him cap too.

For a start, it should be understood that transfer characters exist in a vacuum. The only time transfers exist on Ike is when we are specifically discussing Ike(T).

What's more, Ike (T) is on another plane of existence as far as mere mortals like Titania are concerned. He does not really need stat boosters, or BEXP, or anything, and the only thing he wants more of is strength, which he can't have. Regular Ike can take the 3-9 Speedwing if he gets speed screwed, and in the short term he's not really concerned.

Titania will whiff 1 KO in 3-4, then it is possible that she can whiff KOes in 3-8. Still, consider that those are the only two times where she will likely whiff, and if you get her promoted by 3-8 (which is very possible with BEXP dump or just crowning her), the KOes shouldn't be missed with a Pocket Mist<tm> support... though after playing that battle I'm a little iffy with using that in some general areas.

You must be playing NM good sir. Mia does not ORKO half the enemies on each map, even with an Ike support many ORKOes are iffy.

I'm pretty sure that mages, swordmaters, halberdier and warriors are less then half of the map. Sure, Mia doesn't 1RKO ALL of the halberdiers and warriors, but with a steel forge she could have a shot at a critical, and the nones that she doesn't kill are left with so little HP that someone like Rolf could KO them.

While Mia can get a steel forge, she should reserve it only for tough enemies such as Generals. I don't think she can afford to use it against the scrub Halbs. She doesn't even 2HKO much. A level 10 Mia with a support has 33ATK with that forge. Halberdiers have 37HP and 19DEF roughly in 3-3. So she doesn't even come close to one-rounding. She needs Adept to have a decent chance, and even then, it's only that - a chance. In comparison, a level 18 Titania with a Speedwing has 41ATK and 24AS with a Steel Poleaxe, so she kills in one round.

Furthermore, the Spd cap is pretty irrelevant. Titania's Spd cap only fails in one general category, and that is the capability of doubling Swordmasters. Given that Swordmasters are rather rare to encounter on the maps to begin with, I do not see what is so groundbreaking by your conclusion that 30 Spd cap > 25 when 25 Spd cap doubles quite a few enemies. Also, let's keep in mind that 3-8 has ~50% of the map with fucking Generals, so nevermind her ORKOing half the map.

By something like, 3-5 or 3-6, even with her 25 SPD Titania doesn't double everything on the map, and that's assuming she reaches her cap. And it doesn't matter if the enemies are generals, everyone except Ike (and maybe not even him) are 2RKOing them. Hammer doesn't have infinite uses, and correct me if 'm wrong but the GMs only have one.

3-5 is almost entirely Paladins with awful speed. Titania doubles them all. It's not until 3-8 that Titania has issues, against the Warriors that go up to 22AS.

And the fact is that Titania has the best offense in the team against Generals, tied with Haar. She kicks Mia's ass against everything else as well. All Mia actually wins against are the 22AS Warriors and the Swordmasters, and Titania will get the Warriors post-promotion anyway.

BEXP on Titania allows the team to increase its versatility, makes low turning things much easier (as wasting 1 Hammer use > 2 Hammer uses), and the point that Titania comes eerily close to naturally reaching the --/20/1 anyway. She needs a little help with BEXP, but BEXP on Titania goes a long way.

IIRC hammer has 39 MT against generals, right? o that's 65 ATK against them... so by 3-8 she stops 1RKOing generals with a hammer.... damn. This hammer, Boyd brings it, right?

Actually, it's brought over from the Crimean Royal Knights, who can get it in Bargains.

[Fenrir]

dondon, did u really just say your the only reason people are talking on this thread? arrogant more?

alfredo why dont u just use muti quote, i didnt read any of your posts cause u dont quote.

also nagl, how exactly does getting aran help us??

[dondon151]

Firstly, this thread doesn't die, it just hibernates... Discussion comes in waves, generally prompted by some critical mass of people and/or a new angle on an argument.

I wonder what this "new angle on an argument" is? Discussion in this tier list, now, mostly comes from people that we never bother listening to (Fenrir) or users who walk in with no idea of the premise on which the tier list is run (General Banzai) and are summarily destroyed after 4 pages of back-forth.

Finally, I'll just repeat my usual line about optimal tier lists, since you never deign to respond to the point (maybe some day you will surprise me): 100% efficiency is logical and neat, but undesirable from a community discussion standpoint. If doctrinal purity is so important to you, make your own perfect list. You won't find many people willing to burn the village to save it.

You wander into a subforum, and you find 1 topic with over 300 pages of discussion, and another with 1 page of discussion. Which one would you bother looking at? As much as we like to suggest the alternative of multiple tier lists, it just doesn't work out in practice.

Oh, he seemed to insist on his new name in FftF. Since it was FftF, though, I'm not actually certain whether he meant it.

If you're talking about me, what the heck, man. I've made a total of 4 posts in FftF, none of which involve the word "pope."

Anyway, yeah, if you want 100% optimal deployment with no deviation ever, make your own list and get out of this one. Red Fox never intended this list to be that way, as near as I could tell. Ninji has claimed co-creator status in the past, and I don't think he meant it to be that way. I don't particularly want to supervise one that assumes that in chapter X only specific units ever get deployed. That's far too rigid. Interceptor's argument about waxing and waning in discussion is pretty much what happens here. I don't see how what you want facilitates that kind of participation. Once you've hammered the list into a reflection of the contributions of units in your playthrough, what more can be done to the list unless someone else wipes that smirk off your face by pulling off something quicker and safer than your playthrough?

I have no issues with relenting and leaving the philosophy of this tier list as is (as it generally applies to lower tier characters, most of whom I can't say anything about) - can we please get back on topic and argue about the characters themselves?

Marcus' contributions in his first 10 or so chapters are so great that what most characters provide later on are underwhelming in comparison. My unit A in that example costs you one little turn over the entire game. Think of it as Alan Jr or something who takes one extra turn compared to Alan himself but then replicates his performance exactly. If Alan > Marcus, despite what Marcus does in the first 10 chapters, then why isn't Alan Jr better? Because you lose one little turn making him good enough and the only way to maintain low low turncounts is to never deploy him after chapter 8 or something? That's hardly an indication of how good he is or how much he can contribute. This isn't penalizing Marcus for how bad he may be beyond chapter 10. This is recognizing that some other unit can be good too.

This is an extremely contrived scenario that relies on many assumptions in order for it to be valid:

- Alan and Marcus's tier positions are inherently accurate

- Usage of Alan Jr. specifically precludes the use of Alan or some equivalent character (obviously not true in FE6)

- Alan Jr. always costs 1 extra turn to use, despite any sort of possible favoritism that could be applied to Alan Jr. without affecting turncount (much like how we can feed EXP to Nolan in part 1 even though he's not very useful in the maps after 1-6)

In order for point 2 to be true, the scenario is, for example, that the player has 8 total deployment slots, 7 Alans, 1 Marcus, and 1 Alan Jr. Obviously, Alan Jr. is the clearly inferior choice for a unit slot. Then, point 3 has to be true, that is, using Alan Jr. instead of a 7th Alan costs you 1 turn - but, partly due to how map objectives are structured, and partly due to the law of diminishing marginal returns, replacing your least valuable unit with another less valuable unit generally has no adverse effect (of course, there are some exceptions).

Edited August 22, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

If you're talking about me, what the heck, man. I've made a total of 4 posts in FftF, none of which involve the word "pope."

There were two people mentioned by name in that paragraph and neither of which was you. Aren't you being just a little defensive?

I have no issues with relenting and leaving the philosophy of this tier list as is (as it generally applies to lower tier characters, most of whom I can't say anything about) - can we please get back on topic and argue about the characters themselves?

But it affects Aran a lot. You could arguably stick him in the same tier as Fiona if you are assuming that all he does is what he did on your playthrough. But with a little more investment which, yes, probably costs a few turns, he can still be functional. There is probably a 2 tier difference between "used" Aran and "free deployment only" Aran if we aren't going to extremes with deployment cost.

This is an extremely contrived scenario that relies on many assumptions in order for it to be valid:

- Alan and Marcus's tier positions are inherently accurate

And you protest?

- Usage of Alan Jr. specifically precludes the use of Alan or some equivalent character (obviously not true in FE6)

Why? I never said you can't have both. I never specified who it is that Alan Jr. kicks out. Heck, you probably aren't training enough people for all the deployment slots anyway. Maybe he just kicks out one of the filler characters. Whatever the case, the difference between dropping him and not dropping him is 1 turn.

- Alan Jr. always costs 1 extra turn to use, despite any sort of possible favoritism that could be applied to Alan Jr. without affecting turncount (much like how we can feed EXP to Nolan in part 1 even though he's not very useful in the maps after 1-6)

In order for point 2 to be true, the scenario is, for example, that the player has 8 total deployment slots, 7 Alans, 1 Marcus, and 1 Alan Jr. Obviously, Alan Jr. is the clearly inferior choice for a unit slot. Then, point 3 has to be true, that is, using Alan Jr. instead of a 7th Alan costs you 1 turn - but, partly due to how map objectives are structured, and partly due to the law of diminishing marginal returns, replacing your least valuable unit with another less valuable unit generally has no adverse effect (of course, there are some exceptions).

Interceptor is right. You ARE a pedantic twit. Think beyond the example and look to the principle. Yes, it is rather contrived to imagine a scenario in which the difference between using and dropping is precisely one turn and it is impossible to do better (it is possible to do worse, of course, but the lower limit for turns at maximum prowess (as far as player skill is concerned) is X+1 for using him and X if you use someone else). However, the underlying question is about how psychotically optimal your deployment is. The only way for unit B > unit A to be true is if you only ever deploy the best of the best and none of them are ever screwed enough that it is worth switching. As soon as you allow even a slight amount of variance in team choice, unit A > unit B. That 1 turn cost is in comparison to the perfect team. If you'd stop being a twit and start discussing the meat of an argument rather than semantics, maybe we'd get somewhere. If you truly

"have no issues with relenting and leaving the philosophy of this tier list as is"

then some of your arguments would need to be reworded to fall in line with that idea. Not all, of course. Many of them don't lose meaning. However, I brought it up for the purpose of discussing units like Aran and Kieran. People which were listed on kirsche's list of things to discuss. Hence, it is relevant.

[Fenrir]

I wonder what this "new angle on an argument" is? Discussion in this tier list, now, mostly comes from people that we never bother listening to (Fenrir) or users who walk in with no idea of the premise on which the tier list is run (General Banzai) and are summarily destroyed after 4 pages of back-forth.

and occasionally you int, dondon and rfof will have some arguement.

also, i think we should make like a speed-rush tier list, it would be awesome.

[dondon151]

There were two people mentioned by name in that paragraph and neither of which was you. Aren't you being just a little defensive?

You said "he." When there are 3 possible antecedents for that pronoun, pardon me for being defensive in the case that it referred to me (note the usage of "if").

But it affects Aran a lot. You could arguably stick him in the same tier as Fiona if you are assuming that all he does is what he did on your playthrough. But with a little more investment which, yes, probably costs a few turns, he can still be functional. There is probably a 2 tier difference between "used" Aran and "free deployment only" Aran if we aren't going to extremes with deployment cost.

I disagree. The only noticeable difference between the 2 Arans is that one gets doubled and ORKO'd by tigers in 3-6 while the other doesn't. Their other problems still plague them; general uselessness in part 1 chapters, competition for resources that could make him useful in part 3 chapters, and offensive failure in part 4 chapters. Oh, and I suppose the fact that they are or aren't used, but there is no competition for unit slots after part 1.

And you protest?

Did I say that I protest? It is not a given that tier positions are truth; I was simply pointing that out.

Why? I never said you can't have both. I never specified who it is that Alan Jr. kicks out. Heck, you probably aren't training enough people for all the deployment slots anyway. Maybe he just kicks out one of the filler characters. Whatever the case, the difference between dropping him and not dropping him is 1 turn.

I see what you mean regarding the filler characters. In which case, yes, don't use Alan Jr.

However, the underlying question is about how psychotically optimal your deployment is. The only way for unit B > unit A to be true is if you only ever deploy the best of the best and none of them are ever screwed enough that it is worth switching. As soon as you allow even a slight amount of variance in team choice, unit A > unit B. That 1 turn cost is in comparison to the perfect team. If you'd stop being a twit and start discussing the meat of an argument rather than semantics, maybe we'd get somewhere.

What is there to discuss? I believe I've made my point painfully clear - consider the optimal, and screw the unoptimal. Isn't that what we do already regarding stat boosters, promotion items, and forges?

Edited August 22, 2010 by dondon151

[_____]

Ninji has claimed co-creator status in the past, and I don't think he meant it to be that way.

Just saying that when Fox and I created this list in the IRC, I don't think either of us really knew what we wanted to do with it specifically. We just wanted to try our hand at making a Radiant Dawn list since debating and tiers weren't really popular on SF at that point and there was no list here.

Kind of off-topic, but whatever.

[Interceptor]

I wonder what this "new angle on an argument" is?

Someone discovers and/or advocates a new way at looking at a character comparison, be it via resource distribution, strategy, or something else. Also of note: lower-tiered characters that may not have gotten a full work-up beforehand.

You wander into a subforum, and you find 1 topic with over 300 pages of discussion, and another with 1 page of discussion. Which one would you bother looking at? As much as we like to suggest the alternative of multiple tier lists, it just doesn't work out in practice.

Your claim is not supported by reality. Take Grandjackal's optimal resource distribution thread, or the Draft tier list thread: both have environments similar to this one, and had no trouble attracting people to contribute to the goals of the thread.

The important ingredient is to have something to discuss. Page counts don't enter into it.

[RNG Princess]

I'm going to try and do this right.

Kyza

3-4:

His move and edge climbing are decent here maybe using pass on him would help him get rid of one of the mages faster or tag team with the npc laguz. Or if he's not doing that he can maybe help ferry Heather to the Ettard spot.

3-5:

Theres nothing noteworthy he can do here since short-turning this map is the easiest and safest way to complete it.

3-7:

A self improvement chapter so he would do is similar to what Ranulf would do except his gauge is better but he's a little weaker str-wise.

3-8:

Theres a lot of generals and mages here and his low res doesn't help him much here.

3-10:

Probably one of the better chapters for him to perform. Specially shove-botting.

3-11:

He's got to fight for a spot here his doubling and strengh issues don't make him a good candidate.

3-E:

He's just performing inferior to Ranulf here minus the doubling.

For Part 4 he would be pretty decent for 4-3 just to shove bot because he has no terrain issues.

Theres no fixing him up even if you give him a speedwing to fix his doubling issues (because he's never doubling without it) its more likely a waste due to his low speed growth.

What he is contributing to isn't necessary or improving.

Maybe resolve could help him but overall its not helping save turns so its better on Volug.

All in all I say he should be in bottom tier right above Astrid (Oliver should move down).

Edited August 22, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Zkirsche]

Well, he's got kirsche now following him. That's one, anyway. Not sure about Colonel M. Oh, he seemed to insist on his new name in FftF. Since it was FftF, though, I'm not actually certain whether he meant it.

No, I meant I was supporting maximum efficiency, not necessarily optimal deployment. Int said this topic wasn't optimal utility or something to that effect, and i assumed he meant optimal efficiency - playing the fastest and the safest.

I don't care whether otehr units are the best possible units as I don't see how it would harm discussion as much (unless I'm missing something).

I was joking around when I said that, for clarification.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Zwiebel

[alfredo094]

alfredo why dont u just use muti quote, i didnt read any of your posts cause u dont quote.

1) Can't you use prper grammar? No offence intended, I know mine hasn't been perfect either.

2) I don't know how to use the multi quote.

3) What is quoting or putting italics having to with reading posts?

[Anouleth]

I'm going to try and do this right.

Kyza

3-4:

His move and edge climbing are decent here maybe using pass on him would help him get rid of one of the mages faster or tag team with the npc laguz. Or if he's not doing that he can maybe help ferry Heather to the Ettard spot.

3-5:

Theres nothing noteworthy he can do here since short-turning this map is the easiest and safest way to complete it.

3-7:

A self improvement chapter so he would do is similar to what Ranulf would do except his gauge is better but he's a little weaker str-wise.

3-8:

Theres a lot of generals and mages here and his low res doesn't help him much here.

3-10:

Probably one of the better chapters for him to perform. Specially shove-botting.

3-11:

He's got to fight for a spot here his doubling and strengh issues don't make him a good candidate.

3-E:

He's just performing inferior to Ranulf here minus the doubling.

For Part 4 he would be pretty decent for 4-3 just to shove bot because he has no terrain issues.

Theres no fixing him up even if you give him a speedwing to fix his doubling issues (because he's never doubling without it) its more likely a waste due to his low speed growth.

What he is contributing to isn't necessary or improving.

Maybe resolve could help him but overall its not helping save turns so its better on Volug.

All in all I say he should be in bottom tier right above Astrid (Oliver should move down).

Let's not go that far. Kyza has a 35% speed growth with a fairly low base level. He levels about as fast as base Titania, for example. With a speedwing, he only needs three levels to gain another point and be on 28, which gets him through early Part 4, and another point for 30 speed which covers all of Part 4 except 4-4 is also fairly easy to get. Hell, once he gets S Strike, he's on par with the Hawks.