OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

What I personally don't understand is why Sothe jumped over Volug when Volug is quite obviously better for when they both are around but actually stays good for much longer and an earth support is always helpful to boot. The main issue I guess woukd be 1-2 range, but surely winning everything else is superior?

Base level Volug

49HP 25ATK 19AS 51AVO 13DEF 7RES

level 4 Sothe w/Iron Dagger

36HP 25ATK 21AS 58AVO 15DEF 10RES

Sothe can also boost his attack even further with a forge, as well as have 1-2 range, which is crucial in 1-6-1 and 1-8. Sothe also gets the benefit of actually gaining levels. There is no way to suggest that Volug is 'obviously better' until he can remove Wildheart.

Also, what dondon said, pretty much. However, there is the caveat that Volug can do good things with the Energy Drop or the Dracoshield, while the same cannot be said for Sothe.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Black★Star

[Florete]

Also, what dondon said, pretty much. However, there is the caveat that Volug can do good things with the Energy Drop or the Dracoshield, while the same cannot be said for Volug.

Who is this "Volug" you speak of?

[Anouleth]

Who is this "Volug" you speak of?

Sorry, I meant Sothe in the second instance.

[incognit0]

I can't really say that Volug contributes more on 1-7, because Sothe is kind of forced to go recruit the LEA (of which Muarim at least does a pretty decent job saving turns himself because he wrecks the boss). We're delving into slippery slope territory here, but I just want to point out that Sothe is actually doing something here that aids completion of the chapter and isn't like running off into a group of enemies and taking the EXP for himself or something. 1-E is mostly Volug's business, though.

The other thing that I'm concerned about is that Volug is very good to have around, but he's not ever really excellent due mostly to laguz flaws. A good portion of his part 1 ends up being self-improvement in the form of fighting a lot of enemies to gain strike WEXP. He takes 2 turns to get going in 3-6 and otherwise does pretty well, but consider that Sothe can do things starting turn 1 and Nolan/Jill can already do quite a bit in that timeframe. He likewise requires a startup period in 3-12, which can be completed very quickly with Nolan/Jill. He can kill Ike pretty reliably in 3-13, but that requires at least 4 turns whereas other strats do the same thing in 2-3 turns.

In part 4, he lacks 2-range, which already puts him at a disadvantage compared to a lot of beorcs, even if his offense is really good.

In a world where Volug exists on his own (like in my 0% growths playthrough), he would probably be worthy of top tier. But right now, he just isn't a dominating force like Sothe is at any point in the game, and in absolute terms he probably doesn't save as many turns as Sothe does in general.

I am a bit biased, just because I always depend on Volug in part 3. For instance, in my current (transfers) run, I am looking to do equal or better to Xander's 209, and I ended up giving Energy Drop Volug Paragon in 3-6, and he ended up ripping through 3-12 with Resolve Wildheart and through 3-13 with the same. He hit SS Strike midway through the 6 turn of 3-12. He will be very helpful in Part 4, with his 53 mt and 32AS which will destroy pretty much anything, although he still has a gauge and no 2-range.

I guess my point is that Volug is the one member of the Jill/Nolan/Volug trifecta who is pretty much immune to being stat-screwed, and that consistency in part 3 and later into 4-3, whose absence plagues Jill and Nolan, is incredibly useful. He is the most dependable member in part 3.

[Interceptor]

First I think tiering requires unanimous consent, then I ignore people. Which one do you think I am doing?

I was just responding to what you said. The logical extension of "if I didn't "ignore" people the list would never change", is that the impossibility of getting unanimity requires you to disregard the people that disagree with you the general consensus.

Oh, really? Please refresh my memory on these, because I don't happen to recall you budging an inch on any "great" matters and I couldn't care less about small ones. You have been, as far as I recall, the most stubborn person in this tier list, possibly barring smash.

You don't really think that my opinion on major tier placements hasn't been changed over the years, do you? I'd never stand behind today some of my old positions on the Dawn Brigade, for example, particularly Jill and Volug.

If you're talking about arguments instead... since I research what I'm talking about pretty thoroughly, and try to avoid making careless mistakes like forgetting that Sothe can't OHKO cats, I guess I'd have to plead guilty to not starting many fights that I can't do well in. Thanks for the accidental compliment, in that case.

[Zkirsche]

I was just responding to what you said. The logical extension of "if I didn't "ignore" people the list would never change", is that the impossibility of getting unanimity requires you to disregard the people that disagree with you the general consensus.

Which is fine if she thinks that the general consensus is correct, and that those opposing it are incorrect.

[Florete]

You don't really think that my opinion on major tier placements hasn't been changed over the years, do you? I'd never stand behind today some of my old positions on the Dawn Brigade, for example, particularly Jill and Volug.

If you're talking about arguments instead... since I research what I'm talking about pretty thoroughly, and try to avoid making careless mistakes like forgetting that Sothe can't OHKO cats, I guess I'd have to plead guilty to not starting many fights that I can't do well in. Thanks for the accidental compliment, in that case.

Naturally I would need something I can actually use to draw a conclusion from memory rather than, "Oh this changed for me but I never mentioned it until now."

[Interceptor]

Naturally I would need something I can actually use to draw a conclusion from memory rather than, "Oh this changed for me but I never mentioned it until now."

You mean like Titania > Mia? Surely that's recent enough to not have conveniently fallen out of your head.

[dondon151]

Oh, please. That's more like a begrudging admission than a change of heart. Not to mention, every time I try to move the argument forward (remember when Mia was over Titania? Then Titania was over Mia? Then Titania was a tier over Mia? Then Titania (T) was over Mia (T)?), I can count on you being the first person to oppose it.

[nflchamp]

Oh, please. That's more like a begrudging admission than a change of heart. Not to mention, every time I try to move the argument forward (remember when Mia was over Titania? Then Titania was over Mia? Then Titania was a tier over Mia? Then Titania (T) was over Mia (T)?), I can count on you being the first person to oppose it.

How is persuading someone that you are, in fact, correct not count as that someone changing their opinion? I would think that the very fact someone gives a "begrudging admission" would show a change of heart.

[Interceptor]

How is persuading someone that you are, in fact, correct not count as that someone changing their opinion? I would think that the very fact someone gives a "begrudging admission" would show a change of heart.

I know, right? There's no pleasing some people.

Says more about the pope than it does me, yes indeed.

[Florete]

How is persuading someone that you are, in fact, correct not count as that someone changing their opinion? I would think that the very fact someone gives a "begrudging admission" would show a change of heart.

Accepting it and agreeing with it are two different things.

[Colonel M]

*Me knits sweater with the words "One Big Happy Family" on the sweater*.

...Can't we all just get along? ;_; I mean I know we're stubborn asses from time to time, but I think the call outs on both sides is going a little far here.

[Florete]

*Me knits sweater with the words "One Big Happy Family" on the sweater*.

...Can't we all just get along? ;_; I mean I know we're stubborn asses from time to time, but I think the call outs on both sides is going a little far here.

When it comes to tier lists, this is how we express our love for one another.

[-Cynthia-]

Back to other matters:

Aran. He should drop, but to where? I'm not sure he's better than Edward necessarily. They're both ineffiient to train over the long term, Aran yields better results in Part 3, Edward's better in Part 4. Edward helps in the very early chapters though, while Aran has no such utility.

Skrimir/Cain/Giffca are still over Geoffrey(and Kieran).

[Colonel M]

When it comes to tier lists, this is how we express our love for one another.

I guess they've always said "love hurts" or "love affects people in different ways". Ah well, point of the matter is let's not make a finger pointing game on this and get to the more "important" shit at hand. For example, I still don't think Rafiel and Leanne should have a separation between them (at least by that much). Rafiel helps save quite a few turns in Endgame alone since he can refresh 4 units automatically.

Aran.

Snide answer: let's ask smash what level he'll be by 1-E.

In all seriousness though I'd like to see what level Aran can even REASONABLY reach by then end of 1-E. All I know is any lower than... I think 16/1? and he's doubled by Tigers. Game over.

Edited May 13, 2011 by _M_

[RNG Princess]

Back to other matters:

Aran. He should drop, but to where? I'm not sure he's better than Edward necessarily. They're both ineffiient to train over the long term, Aran yields better results in Part 3, Edward's better in Part 4. Edward helps in the very early chapters though, while Aran has no such utility.

Skrimir/Cain/Giffca are still over Geoffrey(and Kieran).

I think Edward is better and should move up a tier because he has better chance at doubling, joins earlier, and can enjoy an A Nolan support by 3-6

[-Cynthia-]

Snide answer: let's ask smash what level he'll be by 1-E.

In all seriousness though I'd like to see what level Aran can even REASONABLY reach by then end of 1-E. All I know is any lower than... I think 16/1? and he's doubled by Tigers. Game over.

Smash would probably say like...20/4 or something silly like that.

Aran probably won't be doubled by most of the tigers, since they have 16 AS, he'll escape those at like 12/1. The 18 AS Tigers are less common, but he'll need to be ~17-18/1 to stop getting doubled by them, which is tougher since that's a little over a level a chapter. Being ORKOd by some enemies on the map isn't good when you're supposed to be a tank.

As for raw durability, 17/1 Aran should have 31 HP/20 Def (with a C support with someone), which still gets cleanly 2RKOd by the Lvl 16 Tigers. He almost avoids the 2HKO with a Robe though.

Cats double Aran until he's like...20/10 so that's a mark against him in comparison to Jill or something.

As for offense, he's not turning any heads really. 18/1 Aran with a max Mt Steel Lance has 34 Atk, which isn't even 3RKOing most of the Tigers.

Edited May 13, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[aku chi]

Skrimir/Cain/Giffca are still over Geoffrey(and Kieran).

I don't know why you're grouping Skrimir with Caineghis and Giffca: they have different availability. The way I see it (high-level):

Kieran and Geoffrey basically have two average-length chapters where they compete for being the best units (they are hands down the two best in 2-3 and only Marcia can make a case for being comparably useful in 3-9). Kieran also has the slim potential to do something useful outside of those two chapters.

Skrimir, meanwhile, is one of the three best units in an average-length chapter (4-P) and a lengthy chapter (4-3). He's also a good endgame candidate.

Caineghis and Giffca are some of the best units in 4-E-1, 4-E-3, 4-E-4, and 4-E-5 (the latter three being very short chapters). They can do some things that only a very well-trained Skrimir or Reaver can match (sans the movement for the Reaver). But there are a multitude of great units available in endgame, such that ignoring the two royal Lions doesn't hurt us terribly (it probably only costs a turn in 4-E-3 if we bench both of them).

[Interceptor]

Accepting it and agreeing with it are two different things.

This is a good point, even though you are just being petulant.

An example of agreement would be how I agree with Titania > Mia, as the former can be argued to be more valuable for efficient play than the latter for a variety of concrete reasons. And example of acceptance would be how I accept that Sothe is going to be in Top, as the gatekeeper doesn't even maintain a pretense of impartiality on the subject.

These are most definitely different things.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't know why you're grouping Skrimir with Caineghis and Giffca: they have different availability. The way I see it (high-level):

Kieran and Geoffrey basically have two average-length chapters where they compete for being the best units (they are hands down the two best in 2-3 and only Marcia can make a case for being comparably useful in 3-9). Kieran also has the slim potential to do something useful outside of those two chapters.

Skrimir, meanwhile, is one of the three best units in an average-length chapter (4-P) and a lengthy chapter (4-3). He's also a good endgame candidate.

Caineghis and Giffca are some of the best units in 4-E-1, 4-E-3, 4-E-4, and 4-E-5 (the latter three being very short chapters). They can do some things that only a very well-trained Skrimir or Reaver can match (sans the movement for the Reaver). But there are a multitude of great units available in endgame, such that ignoring the two royal Lions doesn't hurt us terribly (it probably only costs a turn in 4-E-3 if we bench both of them).

How do you know that Skrimir is one of our three best units? It'a not set in stone who we've trained and assigned to various teams. If I bring Haar and Jill to the Silver Army that already knocks Skrimir down to 4th (Naesala). He doesn't have two range, he has to deal with gauge, his Spd doesn't double enough for 4-3 and he doesn't fly for 4-3. Laguz Mov is better than beorc Mov in the desert, but not enough for him to face that many enemies.

I wouldn't call Skrimir a great Endgame candidate either. 26 AS is pretty bad (he could have level ups, but laguz don't level very quickly and he's only got 25 % Spd growth) and he's locked to one range and we already have a ton of other great one range laguz to choose from. I like Skrimir and all, but being a pretty average combatant for two chapters in Part 4 is not very impressive.

[Anouleth]

So no response to Brom moving down below Edward?

Snide answer: let's ask smash what level he'll be by 1-E.

In all seriousness though I'd like to see what level Aran can even REASONABLY reach by then end of 1-E. All I know is any lower than... I think 16/1? and he's doubled by Tigers. Game over.

I managed to get Nolan to level 18/1 and Edward to 20/1 (I think Jill was like 19/1, but I had Jill T who gains exp really easily). I think that Aran can reach a higher level than 16/1. And there's no need to assume we're completing Part 1 that quickly.

I wouldn't call Skrimir a great Endgame candidate either. 26 AS is pretty bad (he could have level ups, but laguz don't level very quickly and he's only got 25 % Spd growth)

Laguz level perfectly fine. Skrimir levels like a 20/20/10 beorc, and it's easily possible to get some 3rd tier beorc 10 levels in a single chapter. He can gain levels.

But can he gain 8 levels to double in 4-3? No. Maybe 4-E-1, but not 4-3.

[-Cynthia-]

So no response to Brom moving down below Edward?

I managed to get Nolan to level 18/1 and Edward to 20/1 (I think Jill was like 19/1, but I had Jill T who gains exp really easily). I think that Aran can reach a higher level than 16/1. And there's no need to assume we're completing Part 1 that quickly.

Hmm I had lower levels coming out of Part 1. Nolan was 19/1, Jill was 18/6 (with Paragon), Sothe was 5, Micaiah was like 8, no one else gained more than a level I think. Volug also just barely got to S Strike as well. This might be a speed difference.

Laguz level perfectly fine. Skrimir levels like a 20/20/10 beorc, and it's easily possible to get some 3rd tier beorc 10 levels in a single chapter. He can gain levels.

But can he gain 8 levels to double in 4-3? No. Maybe 4-E-1, but not 4-3.

Even if has enough Spd to double Generals for 4-E-1 he's deadweight for the rest. No Canto, no 2 range, not enough Spd to double auras etc.

[aku chi]

How do you know that Skrimir is one of our three best units? It'a not set in stone who we've trained and assigned to various teams. If I bring Haar and Jill to the Silver Army that already knocks Skrimir down to 4th (Naesala). He doesn't have two range, he has to deal with gauge, his Spd doesn't double enough for 4-3 and he doesn't fly for 4-3. Laguz Mov is better than beorc Mov in the desert, but not enough for him to face that many enemies.

I wouldn't call Skrimir a great Endgame candidate either. 26 AS is pretty bad (he could have level ups, but laguz don't level very quickly and he's only got 25 % Spd growth) and he's locked to one range and we already have a ton of other great one range laguz to choose from. I like Skrimir and all, but being a pretty average combatant for two chapters in Part 4 is not very impressive.

I previously addressed Skrimir's performance in a few posts starting here. I suppose I should clarify that Skrimir does need to take a Speedwing to definitely be one of our three best units in 4-3 a particularly good 4-E candidate: he makes great use of the 3-9 Speedwing.

[Junkhead]

Smash would probably say like...20/4 or something silly like that.

Aran probably won't be doubled by most of the tigers, since they have 16 AS, he'll escape those at like 12/1. The 18 AS Tigers are less common, but he'll need to be ~17-18/1 to stop getting doubled by them, which is tougher since that's a little over a level a chapter. Being ORKOd by some enemies on the map isn't good when you're supposed to be a tank.

As for raw durability, 17/1 Aran should have 31 HP/20 Def (with a C support with someone), which still gets cleanly 2RKOd by the Lvl 16 Tigers. He almost avoids the 2HKO with a Robe though.

Cats double Aran until he's like...20/10 so that's a mark against him in comparison to Jill or something.

As for offense, he's not turning any heads really. 18/1 Aran with a max Mt Steel Lance has 34 Atk, which isn't even 3RKOing most of the Tigers.

smash considers giving him a Speedwings.