OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Well, in 2-3 she can dispatch the Horseslayer Paladin, a job that needs to be done for efficient completion.

I've never found the Horseslayer Paladin particularly problematic anyway, since his hit rates are pretty low and he can't OHKO Geoffrey/Kieran anyway. Marcia also cannot safely enter this area before someone else clears it out for her, there are two Bowgun Warriors as well as a Steel Bow Paladin. I personally found it took more time trying to get Marcia safely over to the guy than just putting a full health Kieran/Geoffrey in range.

In addition, Marcia also has use due to flight in 3-11 and 4-3. I don't know how much you accept the idea of trying to train her for long-term use, but even untrained she can shift around some foot unit like Gatrie or Nolan.

We already have 5 other fliers available for 3-11, so her contributions are pretty limited, though better than the rest of the CRK. Training Marcia for the long term is also not something particularly plausible, unless we assume a higher level than I am coming out of 3-11.

2-P Marcia can get a lot of kills here, though the exp gains are low since they're tier 1. I gave Marcia all the kills before Haar showed up and a few after and got her slightly under a level.

2-3 Again, low exp gain from enemies, most of whom we don't really want to kill, probably a little under another level here

2-E We're like 2-turning this map, Marcia can get like one kill at best here

3-9 Probably her best map for Exp, but it's still not a long map if we're trying to complete it quickly and Marcia is often 3-4RKOing enemies here. Even with Paragon I don't think she can get more than two levels.

Level 9-10 coming into 3-11 gives her about 34 Atk with a forged Steel Lance and 23 AS. She can only double a few Paladins, some Sages/Bishops, and a few of the Generals. 34 Atk barely scratches Generals and won't ORKO Paladins. She can kill off a Sage or two I guess though she misses on some of these doubles. Her Speed will get better over time, but her low Str growth makes it so she can't ORKO most physical enemies even with Paragon.

I find your argument against Tanith a bit lacking. Mainly because you're comparing her to Haar, who is chilling at the top of the tier list. Tanith cannot charge into a group of enemies and kill them all effortlessly like Haar can, but that is not to say she is entirely useless in terms of combat. Yes, she doesn't have great durability. When you have flying and Canto in 4-3, you don't need great durability since you can plonk yourself wherever you please. Yes, she will probably need something, whether it's the 3-9 Speedwing, or a Seraph Robe or Secret Book + BEXP or whatever. I cannot see how any of this would put Tanith a tier below Soren, given that she does give returns. And yes, being able to be a serious combatant does put her a tier above Sigrun.

If Tanith can't take on many enemies, she can't kill many enemies, which detracts from her usefulness. It's good to be a flier in 4-3, but we already have Haar, Naesala, Janaff, Ulki, and Jill as better combat possibilities, as well as a number of other land laguz we can bring (like Skrimir). They don't make Tanith's contributions totally worthless, but her duties mostly involve picking off stray Bishops and Sages, like Sigrun. Or ferrying land units around the map, though if we had good land units I'm not sure why we didn't just put them in another army.

Tanith probably is in the right tier, but I don't really see how she's a tier over or even better than Geoffrey (who is still in Lower Mid for some reason) who make a more tangible contribution to efficiency. Tanith can be better with a resource dump obviously, but I'm not sure this is that useful at this stage in the game when we have other fliers who can do her job better.

[dondon151]

I've never found the Horseslayer Paladin particularly problematic anyway, since his hit rates are pretty low and he can't OHKO Geoffrey/Kieran anyway.

Yes, he leaves Geoffrey with exactly 1 HP, at which point Onager splash damage can KO him. No thanks.

Geoffrey can pull in the Bowgun warriors on turn 2, and he and everyone else can combine to KO them on turn 3. Marcia then flies up to the Horseslayer paladin and blicks him.

[Anouleth]

I've never found the Horseslayer Paladin particularly problematic anyway, since his hit rates are pretty low and he can't OHKO Geoffrey/Kieran anyway. Marcia also cannot safely enter this area before someone else clears it out for her, there are two Bowgun Warriors as well as a Steel Bow Paladin. I personally found it took more time trying to get Marcia safely over to the guy than just putting a full health Kieran/Geoffrey in range.

Even if he doesn't OHKO Geoffrey and Kieran, he leaves them on low enough HP that any other enemy that instantly kill them. And as dondon pointed out, that includes Onagers that can't miss.

It's also quite easy to have Marcia kill the guy on turn 3 without being in danger herself.

We already have 5 other fliers available for 3-11, so her contributions are pretty limited, though better than the rest of the CRK. Training Marcia for the long term is also not something particularly plausible, unless we assume a higher level than I am coming out of 3-11.

That is true. Marcia's combat is pretty awful.

If Tanith can't take on many enemies, she can't kill many enemies, which detracts from her usefulness. It's good to be a flier in 4-3, but we already have Haar, Naesala, Janaff, Ulki, and Jill as better combat possibilities, as well as a number of other land laguz we can bring (like Skrimir). They don't make Tanith's contributions totally worthless, but her duties mostly involve picking off stray Bishops and Sages, like Sigrun. Or ferrying land units around the map, though if we had good land units I'm not sure why we didn't just put them in another army.

And if you note, Janaff and Ulki are in High Tier, Naesala is a full tier above Tanith. Of course, you need to consider what the hell people below Tanith are doing. What is, for example, Soren, or Calill, or Kieran going to do in Part 4?

Tanith probably is in the right tier, but I don't really see how she's a tier over or even better than Geoffrey (who is still in Lower Mid for some reason) who make a more tangible contribution to efficiency. Tanith can be better with a resource dump obviously, but I'm not sure this is that useful at this stage in the game when we have other fliers who can do her job better.

Perhaps Geoffrey needs to move up? For example, he's the tier below Tormod. Can it really be said that Tormod's Part 1 and very minor Part 4 use is clearly better than Geoffrey's 2 chapters?

In addition, it's still the case that Tanith's late Part 3 and Part 4 performance is pretty clearly better than most of the people below her. Even if they have earlygame 'forced utility', she still has her own edge for three chapters.

[grandjackal]

I think it would be wiser if Tormod were to go down to Geoff's level rather than he move up.

[Anouleth]

I think it would be wiser if Tormod were to go down to Geoff's level rather than he move up.

Tormod below Calill? Or Soren? Or Brom?

what are you smoking

[-Cynthia-]

In addition, it's still the case that Tanith's late Part 3 and Part 4 performance is pretty clearly better than most of the people below her. Even if they have earlygame 'forced utility', she still has her own edge for three chapters.

This is true, I suppose the argument is being forced and very useful for few chapters is better than being mediocre in 3-11 and Part 4. I suppose looking at the list I'd only really move her under Kieran anyway, so not much of a change. But yes I agree Geoffrey should move up a few places, he's similar to Tormod in that both are useful for a few chapters then return for Part 4 and aren't very good at all, so right above or below him seems fair.

[nflchamp]

I've never found the Horseslayer Paladin particularly problematic anyway, since his hit rates are pretty low and he can't OHKO Geoffrey/Kieran anyway. Marcia also cannot safely enter this area before someone else clears it out for her, there are two Bowgun Warriors as well as a Steel Bow Paladin. I personally found it took more time trying to get Marcia safely over to the guy than just putting a full health Kieran/Geoffrey in range.

Allies can be used without even risking Geoffrey/Kieran if you have enough left.

Edited May 31, 2011 by nflchamp

[Florete]

Oscar (T) is underrated and needs to move up. He's better than Mia initially (better movement, better 1-2 range, more reliable ORKOing against enemy types that he doubles). If he takes a Crown when he caps strength, he extends that lead throughout the rest of Part 3. Mia is better in Part 4, though. Oscar (T) should at least be in the spot below her.

Hm, I'm not entirely sure about that. He needs to go up for sure, but with him vs Hawks I wonder. He's got availability and some 1-2 range on them, but they win everywhere else most likely. Plus, even Oscar (T) won't have the easiest time capping Str and I can't say he's the best Crown candidate.

There's also him vs Nephenee (T), which is another case of better doubling vs horse. Oscar should probably win that one, though.

Also, I'm wondering if maybe Jill (T) > Shinon? Her contributions in Parts 1 and 3 for the DB are very useful, and she has something Shinon lacks: Enemy Phase.

Agreed.

I'd also like to bring up Jill > Gatrie again. I don't see what makes his contributions so much better than Jill's.

Agreed.

And maybe Astrid > Oliver as well. She can chip in her CRK chapters so Geoffrey and Kieran can go in and kill stuff, and she brings Paragon.

No credit for bringing Paragon. Otherwise, this one might be debatable, but I'd side with Astrid.

Also, Ena. Why is she so high? Her combat is shit and she doesn't do much, even though she's free in Endgame. Not like she can do much more than Sigrun, who doesn't have to rely on transformation gauges.

Blood Tide is pretty nice, and makes it so she doesn't actually have to rely on gauge at all. Sigrun may fly, but her combat potential really is bad.

Elincia should move below Jill IMO. Elincia is important for a fast clear of 2-E, Jill is important for a fast clear of 1-6(2). But then Jill gets 1-7, 1-E and all her part 3 chapters before Part 4 comes along and Jill should be beating Elincia combat wise by this point (though Elincia has staves). Just seems to me that Jill's Part 3 should be outweighing Elincia...not being there at all.

Agreed.

[Anouleth]

Hm, I'm not entirely sure about that. He needs to go up for sure, but with him vs Hawks I wonder. He's got availability and some 1-2 range on them, but they win everywhere else most likely. Plus, even Oscar (T) won't have the easiest time capping Str and I can't say he's the best Crown candidate.

I think Oscar is a much better canditate than Gatrie, if that's what you're implying. In addition, he can always wait until the 3-7 Crown, since the extra combat edge isn't really necessary for 3-5 or 3-7.

There's also him vs Nephenee (T), which is another case of better doubling vs horse. Oscar should probably win that one, though.

No 'probably' about it. Definitely. Oscar is likely chilling at 24AS when Nephenee shows up. He wins offense against every enemy type that doesn't have 21 or more AS, which is all of them, pretty much. He also wins durability and movement.

[Florete]

I think Oscar is a much better canditate than Gatrie, if that's what you're implying. In addition, he can always wait until the 3-7 Crown, since the extra combat edge isn't really necessary for 3-5 or 3-7.

I was actually thinking Haar. And what 3-7 Master Crown? I don't recall there being another available until 3-11 unless you send Jill or Zihark over with one.

[Mekkah]

Stealing a crown from a DB unit with Heather maybe?

[Anouleth]

In addition, I would rather give the Crown to Oscar rather than Haar. See, by giving the Crown to Haar, you are hurting his long-term speed in exchange for a short term gain. There is no such 'price' with Oscar, it is all positive.

[Florete]

In addition, I would rather give the Crown to Oscar rather than Haar. See, by giving the Crown to Haar, you are hurting his long-term speed in exchange for a short term gain. There is no such 'price' with Oscar, it is all positive.

Well, with the Speedwing assumed, Haar can easily promote with 23 or 24 AS. 24 is his cap and I don't think promoting with 23 is going to hurt him all that badly.

[Anouleth]

Well, with the Speedwing assumed, Haar can easily promote with 23 or 24 AS. 24 is his cap and I don't think promoting with 23 is going to hurt him all that badly.

Will Haar really be at level ~18 in time for the 3-4 Crown? I guess there's BEXP that speeds it up...

The point is, that if Haar doesn't take his early Crown, then it's not like it's the end of the world for him if his speed is still uncapped, which is a serious possibility. Whereas it does have a big impact. I'd much rather have the 3-3 Crown on Oscar and the 3-7 on Haar, is what I'm saying.

[Florete]

Will Haar really be at level ~18 in time for the 3-4 Crown? I guess there's BEXP that speeds it up...

The point is, that if Haar doesn't take his early Crown, then it's not like it's the end of the world for him if his speed is still uncapped, which is a serious possibility. Whereas it does have a big impact. I'd much rather have the 3-3 Crown on Oscar and the 3-7 on Haar, is what I'm saying.

Well, you previously said it was to uncap Oscar's Str, but will he even have that capped in time? Skl is capped, Spd is one away, and he needs 3 Str to cap, more than Haar needs after the Wing with 5% more growth and a higher base level (though barely). Even with Skl and Spd capped HP and Lck are higher (by 15-20) and Def is only 5 lower than his Str growth. With every level being BEXP'd, he probably needs to reach 16-17 to reliably cap Str, and 17 is about what Haar needs to cap Spd already (maybe 16 with BEXP).

Thing is, Haar is probably gaining more experience in his first two maps than Oscar on account of likely getting two boss kills as opposed to none, on top of whatever other scrubs Haar may kill. Haar can also use this promoted performance to better effect in 3-7. That admittedly isn't a big deal, but Oscar doesn't have much to show for it.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Oscar (T) > Neph (T) seems pretty easy. I don't think 3-3 crown is necessary for Oscar for comparison against hawks, since 24 AS works for 3-4 (and that map is eh for him anyway) and 3-5 and 3-7 are irrelevant, which is when hawks join and you get another crown. I don't know about Leanne and Nailah, though, cause that's pretty subjective.

On another note, Jill (T) > Nolan? The difference now is that she got a def transfer, and +4 def trades off against the +8 hp Nolan has at join (level 14 each), which avoids that business with who gets a robe, though it's likely she'll get one anyway.

[Anouleth]

Well, you previously said it was to uncap Oscar's Str, but will he even have that capped in time? Skl is capped, Spd is one away, and he needs 3 Str to cap, more than Haar needs after the Wing with 5% more growth and a higher base level (though barely). Even with Skl and Spd capped HP and Lck are higher (by 15-20) and Def is only 5 lower than his Str growth. With every level being BEXP'd, he probably needs to reach 16-17 to reliably cap Str, and 17 is about what Haar needs to cap Spd already (maybe 16 with BEXP).

There always the possibility of a Robe on Oscar, which buffers his durability and opens the way to better BEXP use. But I agree with your point.

Thing is, Haar is probably gaining more experience in his first two maps than Oscar on account of likely getting two boss kills as opposed to none, on top of whatever other scrubs Haar may kill. Haar can also use this promoted performance to better effect in 3-7.

I didn't get the memo: Haar can help us clear 3-7 in 11 turns?

Ultimately, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference who takes the first crown and who takes the second crown. The point is, that Oscar can take a Crown, there isn't a whole load of cost associated (not crying any tears over Gatrie), and he can extend his lead over Mia throughout the whole of Part 3.

[Florete]

Oscar (T) > Neph (T) seems pretty easy. I don't think 3-3 crown is necessary for Oscar for comparison against hawks, since 24 AS works for 3-4 (and that map is eh for him anyway) and 3-5 and 3-7 are irrelevant, which is when hawks join and you get another crown. I don't know about Leanne and Nailah, though, cause that's pretty subjective.

Normally I'd question getting a Crown on 3-7, but I guess the DB doesn't need more than one anyway...

On another note, Jill (T) > Nolan? The difference now is that she got a def transfer, and +4 def trades off against the +8 hp Nolan has at join (level 14 each), which avoids that business with who gets a robe, though it's likely she'll get one anyway.

I wouldn't go that far just yet. Nolan is pretty key early on and Tarvos is really good for part 3. Also 1-8.

I didn't get the memo: Haar can help us clear 3-7 in 11 turns?

Why the hell did you cut off the rest of that paragraph just so you could say this?

Ultimately, it doesn't make a huge amount of difference who takes the first crown and who takes the second crown. The point is, that Oscar can take a Crown, there isn't a whole load of cost associated (not crying any tears over Gatrie), and he can extend his lead over Mia throughout the whole of Part 3.

Agreed.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

No credit for bringing Paragon. Otherwise, this one might be debatable, but I'd side with Astrid.

Blood Tide is pretty nice, and makes it so she doesn't actually have to rely on gauge at all. Sigrun may fly, but her combat potential really is bad.

Even without Paragon I feel she does more than Oliver mostly because he'll be recruited by the time 4-4 ends, giving him no useful chance in that chapter. Also he isn't even close to being a candidate for the Endgame because of his poor combat, and is it really necessary for a worse version of Micky?

The one issue I still see with Ena is that she'll need guards if she's not transformed. I guess if she's tiding she won't need to worry but she might get obliterated by 2-range.

[Yuglyoshi]

Even without Paragon I feel she does more than Oliver mostly because he'll be recruited by the time 4-4 ends, giving him no useful chance in that chapter. Also he isn't even close to being a candidate for the Endgame because of his poor combat, and is it really necessary for a worse version of Micky?

The one issue I still see with Ena is that she'll need guards if she's not transformed. I guess if she's tiding she won't need to worry but she might get obliterated by 2-range.

Certain enemies don't attack Micaiah/Dragons, and also, why wouldn't she be transformed? Just drop a Laguz Stone on her if you're that worried about getting attacked.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Not like you'll need any other stones anyway, considering that most of your Laguz will either have Gems or be Royals.

[Dark Sage]

Aran should drop. Like, below Edward.

Aran costs at least a turn for his recruitment and his Part 1 is ass. He's immediately outclassed by Nolan, Sothe, and all the prepromotes you get for the rest of Part 1. In fact, he's worse than Edward in 1-4 since he has an excellent chance of being critblicked.

Let's assume we do use Edward for all of Part 1. We give him Paragon, a Robe, and a Dracoshield and by 3-6, he's at 17/1. Let's also give him B Nolan.

Now what we get is the following:

17/1 Aran: 38 HP, 18.5 Strength, 14 AS, 57 avoid, 22 defense.

Max Hit/Might Steel Forge: 33 attack, 144 hit.

His 3-6 performance is pretty bad. The good news is that 22 attack cats tink him. The bad news is that 1) they are very rare, 2) he's doubled by all the other cats and the 18 AS tigers.

The 29 atk cats deal 14 damage in one round, a 3RKO. The 18 AS tigers however, pack 41 might. They ORKO him. For the 39 attack tigers, they 3RKO him as well. Now that seems pretty good right?

Well his offense. His offense is truly wretched. His 33 MT only 2HKOs the 41 HP, 12 defense cats. The rest of the cats he 3HKOs. The 50 HP/20 defense tigers, the most common type, he 4HKO's. I guess he can take Beastfoe and OHKO all the cats, but he misses all the tigers and it's really not worth taking away from Nolan.

His 3-12 performance is also terrible. In order to not be doubled by he 20 AS halberdiers, he needs to be at 17/6, which I doubt is happening. Let's say he's at 17/5:

17/5 Aran (A Nolan): 40 HP, 36 MT, 16 AS, 64 Avoid, 24 defense.

Doubled by the 34 attack halbs and is 2RKO'd. The halbs have 37 HP and 19 defense, which is a 3RKO. The 30 attack halbs 4RKO him while Aran still 3RKO's them. Same story with the warriors. He also is 4RKO'd by the swordmasters, but they have a 10% chance of critting and can double him, which really sucks. His offense to be fair isn't completely terrible. He does 2HKO soldiers, snipers, sages, bishops, falcos, a 36HP/18 defense armor, falcos and some paladins but his offense against the rest of the map isn't that good honestly. It's not as bad a performance as his 3-6 performance but he's not really saving any turns.

No need to go over his part 4 performance. We all know it well.

Look at it this way. We dumped a Robe, Shield, Nolan support, Paragon, and we spent a lot of time in part 1 holding his hand. How many turns does he save after all that? Maybe a turn? Compare that to Edward who not only has 1-P and 1-1, but also 1-2, 1-3, and outperforms Aran in 1-4.

It's not like Aran has a potential future either. He's never going to double anything, he's not going to be gaining that much levels, he's a terrible crown candidate, he's getting doubled a lot of the time. Really, do I need to say anymore?

If Smash ever reads this for some reason, I feed on his hate and tears.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Roro

[Silith]

You are talking about putting him below Edward. EDWARD of all people.

At level 17/1 for 3-6 you really should give him a speedwing so he doesn't get doubled by 18 AS Tigers though it's likely he'll have leveled 3-4 times before the first one appears.

I doubt Aran will only get 4-5 levels in 3-6. that chapter is really exp heavy. I usually have 3 level 1 T2's there and I end up with thm being level 7-9 at the end. Yes I DO try to kill stuff when it's transformed for more exp.

[Anouleth]

I overall agree, but there are a few errors in your analysis:

-Aran can have A Nolan by 3-6.

-I think you are underestimating Aran's EXP gain.

However, overall, the case still is that Aran's long-term contribution is shaky at best, which puts him in the same situation as Edward, only without the earlygame performance.

[Colonel M]

The only thing is I'm not entirely sure how well his CEXP gain is overall from Part 3 in general. Hence, why I wanted someone to actually use him.

-Aran can have A Nolan by 3-6.

I think my problem with assuming Aran and Nolan is that they fight for roughly the same resources constantly. For Nolan, 34 Atk whiffs 2HKOes on Cats all over the place and he's still too slow to double them. Tarvos allows him to net 2HKOes on Cats, but the more Tarvos is used, the less chances he gets to pull trigger moments in 3-12 and 3-13. Then you also make it a steep competition for the Dracoshield and Beastfoe, then Paragon gets hogged all over the place and before you know it you have a huge mess.

Jill is likely the best unit to pair with Aran, hence Nolan being replaced. While Jill would like the Dracoshield too, she can somewhat live without it and the resources she wants at certain times aren't as back breaking. This also frees up Beastfoe for Aran so he can at least OHKO the Cats and at least gum Tigers on the Enemy Phase. Might also be helpful that he whiffs OHKOes so Jill can cooperate with him.

Man smash gonna be so mad when he hears about Edward > Aran. It's like a dream come true.

At level 17/1 for 3-6 you really should give him a speedwing so he doesn't get doubled by 18 AS Tigers though it's likely he'll have leveled 3-4 times before the first one appears.

This is possibly the worst argument for giving a Speedwing to someone ever.

Edited June 9, 2011 by _M_