OMG it's a tier list

[Chiki]

the thing is that you can't accurately predict how the AI will force the far away enemies to move. you can explore all you want, but you still don't have complete information of the map.

Since the laguz can't move much in the swamp anyway, they won't be moving far at all. It's 100% reliable, at least in my experience.

didn't i show that jill(T) dies from 2 tigers and a cat with a seraph robe, dracoshield, and the assumed transfers?

Totally depends on the kind of tigers and cats you fight, really, so the situation you suggest is not as likely as you think it is. Even if it is, all you have to do is spend more time positioning your units more carefully in exchange for a lower turn count. That is, after all, the point of an efficiency run.

this is patently false. if you can grab an OHKO and have a secondary source for healing on top of that, you do it.

It's not likely when you're in the swamp. Transformed laguz can only move a single square, and untransformed 2, iirc. So Jill won't be getting player phase action at all.

Anyway, she'd rather spend that time healing with a Concoction.

way to miss the point. the map is limited by the vision range of the units that start in the bottom left corner. there are far more enemies in the vicinity and you'll maybe engage around 1/3 of the enemies on the map within the first 2-3 turns because you have to get close to them and they will invariably get close to you.

Extremely optimistic estimate. Transformed laguz have 1 move in the swamp, while untransformed have 2. Your own units have 2 as well, so there's likely not going to be too much combat in the first few turns.

[dondon151]

Since the laguz can't move much in the swamp anyway, they won't be moving far at all. It's 100% reliable, at least in my experience.

i suppose i'll take your word for it

Totally depends on the kind of tigers and cats you fight, really, so the situation you suggest is not as likely as you think it is.

but i clearly showed that any 2 tigers of ~24 tigers on the map plus any cat that doesn't have A strike (so also pretty much all of them) combine for a 3HKO on jill. your jill didn't have that problem probably because you got her an HP transfer.

Even if it is, all you have to do is spend more time positioning your units more carefully in exchange for a lower turn count. That is, after all, the point of an efficiency run.

that also means that jill can't kill 2 tigers and a cat in a turn

It's not likely when you're in the swamp. Transformed laguz can only move a single square, and untransformed 2, iirc. So Jill won't be getting player phase action at all.

that's perfect for getting player phase action. she swoops in, OHKOs or ORKOs, then swoops into an enemy phase position.

Anyway, she'd rather spend that time healing with a Concoction.

i clearly said that with healing support available, she prefers attacking over healing

Extremely optimistic estimate. Transformed laguz have 1 move in the swamp, while untransformed have 2. Your own units have 2 as well, so there's likely not going to be too much combat in the first few turns.

i have a goddamned video of this map where i 9 turn cleared mostly by staying at the starting point.

[Chiki]

but i clearly showed that any 2 tigers of ~24 tigers on the map plus any cat that doesn't have A strike (so also pretty much all of them) combine for a 3HKO on jill. your jill didn't have that problem probably because you got her an HP transfer.

that also means that jill can't kill 2 tigers and a cat in a turn

It's perfectly possible to find other places where you can kill an average of 3 units per turn until you level up enough to be able to take them on by yourself (assuming Jill gets, say, 7 levels in this chapter, after around 4-5 of those she gets, for example, 39 HP and 24 def, which allows her to take 3-4 enemies per turn reliably during the later parts of the map.

that's perfect for getting player phase action. she swoops in, OHKOs or ORKOs, then swoops into an enemy phase position.

But those laguz won't even be in her range because of the fog of war, and low move. She won't even be able to see them, so she can't kill them.

i clearly said that with healing support available, she prefers attacking over healing

Assuming Jill is flying, how can Micaiah reach her with Physic?

i have a goddamned video of this map where i 9 turn cleared mostly by staying at the starting point.

You said the first few turns. 9 turns and dropping the BK are irrelevant.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Jushiro

[dondon151]

It's perfectly possible to find other places where you can kill an average of 3 units per turn until you level up enough to be able to take them on by yourself (assuming Jill gets, say, 7 levels in this chapter, after around 4-5 of those she gets, for example, 39 HP and 24 def, which allows her to take 3 enemies per turn reliably during the later parts of the map.

so, all of those places where there are exactly 2 transformed cats and 1 transformed tiger in range?

But those laguz won't even be in her range because of the fog of war, and low move. She won't even be able to see them, so she can't kill them.

how did you even arrive at that assumption? there could be plenty of enemies that your other units have already revealed. we don't need jill to go straight to the other side of the map; she definitely has enough movement to double back a few spaces, grab a kill on PP, and then move somewhere else.

Assuming Jill is flying, how can Micaiah reach her with Physic?

again, jill is not clear on the other side of the map; micaiah should be able to reach at least halfway across the map assuming she's gained more then like, 3 levels in part 1.

You said the first few turns. 9 turns and dropping the BK are irrelevant.

but the thing is, i didn't go out into the swamp for the first 5 turns. well, okay, volug made a steady path northwards, but even with his progress at a snail's pace, there was absolutely no need to foray out into the middle of the swamp for a majority of the kills. even if you do need to go out that far, nolan @ beastfoe is definitely sufficient to carve a steady swath of destruction to clear in 9, maybe 8 turns.

[Chiki]

I think we're going off-topic with this discussion, as it's more about a strategy on a single chapter rather than anything else, so I think it may be best to stop here.

Let us assume that we do use Beastfoe Nolan, though. Assuming Jill(T) with resources gets more levels with Beastfoe as she, imo, gets more kills, she can easily 3-turn 3-12 and 2-turn 3-13 without much difficulty. Nolan, Volug, etc. become totally irrelevant for 3-12 and 3-13 because all you need is Jill (well, her and Tauroneo, Leonardo for a pegasus KO and maybe some people to shove rocks and help kill the pegasus knights, but Sothe and ZIhark can fill those roles). Just giving Jill your resources for all these chapters gives you a perfectly reliable way to get the most efficient possible turncount for DB part 3.

I still think Jill(T) should be at least above Mia in the High Tier.

[aku chi]

I think we're going off-topic with this discussion, as it's more about a strategy on a single chapter rather than anything else, so I think it may be best to stop here.

In my experience, every FE:RD debate is a 3-6 debate waiting to happen. It's a mysterious inevitability.

Assuming Jill(T) with resources gets more levels with Beastfoe as she, imo, gets more kills,

That's not a sound assumption. Paragon Jill (T) can get at least as many levels as Beastfoe Jill (T) in 3-6. But that just strengthens Jill (T)'s position.

I still think Jill(T) should be at least above Mia in the High Tier.

That's a difficult comparison. Let's try Mia (N) < Ulki (N), then Jill (T) > Ulki (T). Those seem like easier comparisons. (For the record, I'm not sold on either change, but both seem plausible. Check out this GameFAQs thread for a Janaff and Mia (N) comparison.

[Chiki]

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Nolan, either, if you couldn't tell already. He's very difficult to raise on an efficiency playthrough (hard mode in general, honestly), which is why I don't like the idea of Beastfoe Nolan, personally, and would rather give it to Jill.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Jushiro

[dondon151]

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Nolan, either, if you couldn't tell already. He's very difficult to raise on an efficiency playthrough (hard mode in general, honestly), which is why I don't like the idea of Beastfoe Nolan, personally, and would rather give it to Jill.

there's nothing preventing you from putting paragon in jill and beastfoe on nolan/volug; you get approximately similar mileage out of both.

also i agree with jill above the hawks.

[Chiki]

there's nothing preventing you from putting paragon in jill and beastfoe on nolan/volug; you get approximately similar mileage out of both.

also i agree with jill above the hawks.

I honestly found it impossible to 8-turn without Beastfoe Jill, but maybe that was because I lacked Nolan.

[Florete]

In my experience, every FE:RD debate is a 3-6 debate waiting to happen. It's a mysterious inevitability.

Now that you mention it, there's probably a strange amount of truth in there...

[dondon151]

I honestly found it impossible to 8-turn without Beastfoe Jill, but maybe that was because I lacked Nolan.

like i said, i'm sure that a hypothetical strategy copying exactly what i did in 0% growths but using jill to actually kill transformed laguz would be able to get an 8 turn clear.

[Dark Sage]

Mia should definietly drop below Oscar (T). Wasn't it proven months ago that Oscar is just plain better than her?

[Shadow Mir]

Excuse me, but why exactly is Lethe above Sanaki?

[Florete]

Mia should definietly drop below Oscar (T). Wasn't it proven months ago that Oscar is just plain better than her?

Don't remember. Think you could find it?

Excuse me, but why exactly is Lethe above Sanaki?

Lethe probably does more for us in 2-2 than Sanaki ever does.

[incognit0]

I think we're going off-topic with this discussion, as it's more about a strategy on a single chapter rather than anything else, so I think it may be best to stop here.

Let us assume that we do use Beastfoe Nolan, though. Assuming Jill(T) with resources gets more levels with Beastfoe as she, imo, gets more kills, she can easily 3-turn 3-12 and 2-turn 3-13 without much difficulty. Nolan, Volug, etc. become totally irrelevant for 3-12 and 3-13 because all you need is Jill (well, her and Tauroneo, Leonardo for a pegasus KO and maybe some people to shove rocks and help kill the pegasus knights, but Sothe and ZIhark can fill those roles). Just giving Jill your resources for all these chapters gives you a perfectly reliable way to get the most efficient possible turncount for DB part 3.

I still think Jill(T) should be at least above Mia in the High Tier.

It is definitely best to give Jill paragon. I'm fairly certain it gives her better levels than Beastfoe from using Jill (T) many times on hard mode, and it also allows someone else (Volug or Nolan) to make good use of Beastfoe. Admittedly, I did clear 3-6 a turn or two slow in my playthrough. I do agree, however, that Jill (T) is pretty baller.

[Vorena]

Part 4-F's maps are pretty small and Ike's not going to have troubles catching up. Ironically, Ike will be the one waiting for everyone else to pick up the Wishblade from Levail before he KOs the Black Knight to clear the chapter.

Ena and Sanaki are at your disposal in the tower. Sanaki boasts a 33 mag at base level and with the Tide boost she's resting at 38 magic and the boss has 60hp/15 resistance. You have the chance for a buying a Blizzard tome earlier in the game for 700g, or keeping Calill's meteor tome usage. So, you can KO Levail on turn one and send in Ike to KO BK on the same turn with Hammer.

Does the extra 2 defence on Jill really make that much of a difference on her durability?

Edited June 8, 2012 by Dark Pegasi

[Shadow Mir]

Ena and Sanaki are at your disposal in the tower. Sanaki boasts a 33 mag at base level and with the Tide boost she's resting at 38 magic and the boss has 60hp/15 resistance. You have the chance for a buying a Blizzard tome earlier in the game for 700g, or keeping Calill's meteor tome usage. So, you can KO Levail on turn one and send in Ike to KO BK on the same turn with Hammer.

Ena has Blood Tide which doesn't boost Magic. Otherwise, fair enough.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Vorena]

Oh, right. I was trying to remember how I KO'd Levail on the first turn. It wasn't ena, it was Micaiah with a purge tome (5 mt). With the forced promotions she'll match his resistance, and only needs a few magic after that. Either way, 2 purge uses or one purge use with a few levels of 80% magic isn't difficult to get either.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Dark Pegasi

[Starwave]

oooooook then, glad that's all cleared up (I hope)

That said, my post of 3-4 pages back was missed. Reposting in hopes that someone will answer my question

would like to question why Gareth is above Kurthnaga. Did um... Kurthnaga steal your lunch money? Why on earth is he that low? We're not on gamefaqs, so i'm disregarding the "HE BECOMES SUPER BEAST LATER ON" but Gareth is literally on usable for 2 chapters, and his opponents use magic attacks. His high defense is worthless, and he'll get preyed on his weaker Res stat. Offensively he's irrelevant. Is Blood Tide that important? Ena is forced so you might as well use her, and I don't think a second blood tide user will really make a difference.<br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">Also, did you guys forget Kurth's utility in 4-E-3? He makes it less of a nightmare in hard mode, and if you raise him up properly he can actually do passable damage (though he'll never ever double... pity). Night Tide is nowhere is useful as Blood Tide, but its got a niche (and somewhat useful early on). <br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); "><br style="color: rgb(7, 55, 2); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">My point is, if Kurth is bottom tier Gareth is sure as hell bottom tier as well. (i'd even argue that Kurth's utility in 4-E-3 alone / forced deployment makes him a candidate for bottom, but I digress. Its not the point i'm trying to make.)

[PKL]

To answer that Starwave: Kurthnage joins super late, underleveled, with bad move and no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Aside from...flight I guess but his move sucks so he cant use it well anyways. And no, black tide isnt a redeeming quality. Gareth has blood tide going for him and is probably essential for a 1 or 2 turn clear of 4-E-5.

[Starwave]

Does the tier list really take into account clearing 4-E-5 in 1-2 turns? Really that seems like a nifty trick rather than something should be relevant. I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me tbh... I'll drop if the majority of you feel that a low turn count clear for the light chapter is conducive to a good run.

BTW Kurthnaga ends up helping you out tremendously in 4-E-3 (which is arguably the hardest chapter in the game imo. He doesn't even need that much BEXP to get going, just enough to get a few attack procs in order to sufficiently damage the dragons in that chapter.) The way I see it is:

-Kurth is forced

-Kurth helps you out in 4-E-3 regardless of whether you levelled up him up or not (he can be used as a make-shit roadblock)

-Night Tide is acceptable in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2

I feel that he's on a whole other level than the likes of Oliver, Fiona, etc who can NEVER contribute without negatively impacting the team (ie taking up a character slot by using them.)

PS: I'm loving this forum's perspective on tier lists, you guys are awesome.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Starwave

[MacLovin]

Does the tier list really take into account clearing 4-E-5 in 1-2 turns? Really that seems like a nifty trick rather than something should be relevant. I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me tbh... I'll drop if the majority of you feel that a low turn count clear for the light chapter is conducive to a good run.

BTW Kurthnaga ends up helping you out tremendously in 4-E-3 (which is arguably the hardest chapter in the game imo. He doesn't even need that much BEXP to get going, just enough to get a few attack procs in order to sufficiently damage the dragons in that chapter.) The way I see it is:

-Kurth is forced

-Kurth helps you out in 4-E-3 regardless of whether you levelled up him up or not (he can be used as a make-shit roadblock)

-Night Tide is acceptable in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2

I feel that he's on a whole other level than the likes of Oliver, Fiona, etc who can NEVER contribute without negatively impacting the team (ie taking up a character slot by using them.)

PS: I'm loving this forum's perspective on tier lists, you guys are awesome.

We want to complete the game as swiftly and as efficiently as possible.

GAreth assists in this.

Kurth is only useful for Night Tide.

And Night Tide isn't that useful.

[Vicious Sal]

1339161590[/url]' post='2010898']

We want to complete the game as swiftly and as efficiently as possible.

GAreth assists in this.

Kurth is only useful for Night Tide.

And Night Tide isn't that useful.

To add to that, 4-F-3 is usually oneturned.

[aku chi]

To add to that, 4-F-3 is usually oneturned.

But clearing 4-E-3 in one turn is not something that any 'ol team can pull off, so 2-turn clears should also be considered (where maybe Kurthnaga can be helpful?).

[Colonel M]

Does the extra 2 defence on Jill really make that much of a difference on her durability?

Considering her base is average, I would say so.

Assuming she procs Def at least once, promotes, and gets the Dracoshield, she has 20 Def. Throwing both Seraph Robes seems kind of iffy, but we'll go with it for now, which boosts her HP to about 41. 41 HP | 20 Def... well at first she's 2HKOed by Tigers, but after 2 HP procs or a Def proc it becomes a 3HKO. It's slightly better than Nolan at this point, but to be fair Nolan only needs Seraph Robe / Tarvos / Dracoshield / Support to 3HKO, IIRC. He has to be about 20/1, but it's a little more solid and has a slightly lower cost at this point than Jill. Not saying that Jill can't have those resources, but it is true that she's taking quite a bit from the team if we're doing about what our friend was doing, and Beastfoe kind of slowing down the CEXP gain (slightly).

If I had my wireless bar, I would take this game for another spin and see how Jill (N) would do with his setup with training Nolan again, though I think the issue is Nolan would be left to be a prune after 1-6. I guess that's fine so long as Jill can pull all the weight, but I digress. I like Nolan a little too much despite liking Jill too.