Snowy_One Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Too be honest, it's pretty sad that tiering for these older games is pretty dead. I mean, yea, it means the people have managed to make a list most people are satisfied with, but also that they have explored every option they deem 'acceptable' and aren't trying new ones. Course, it also means they're playing newer games as well, so that's a plus. Though I would like it if the joke entries and 'Sword Art Online' tier got removed. Just put Lyre at the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 maybe people finally realized tiers aren't useful at all save in a drafting context Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 maybe people finally realized tiers aren't useful at all save in a drafting context Um, if you read some of the more snappy posts from Interceptor, some of us have always known. Posts like one I can't bother finding about how smash was complaining things don't happen quickly enough for him and then Int saying that it's a meaningless list of characters set up for the sole purpose of letting us argue. Tiers have only really ever been useful for that. We tier for the tiering itself, not for any other purpose. Most of us don't even tier for the sake of drafting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 well it took me a long time to piece it together, but ive always been slow to the uptake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClLoulD Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 I'd say this Tier list is about 98% correct which is as high as you can really ever get it, I mean I can argue that Jill (T) should be above Mia (T) and Oscar (T) but someone else can easily disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Um, if you read some of the more snappy posts from Interceptor, some of us have always known. Posts like one I can't bother finding about how smash was complaining things don't happen quickly enough for him and then Int saying that it's a meaningless list of characters set up for the sole purpose of letting us argue. Tiers have only really ever been useful for that. We tier for the tiering itself, not for any other purpose. Most of us don't even tier for the sake of drafting. I tier tiering for tiering itself as bottom-tier. Lyre needs companions and you'll do wonderfully Narga. Now, not joking, I know that most of us simply tier for tiering itself. A tier list only has two uses, to professionals looking to improve their game and newbies with no experience. In my own personal experience Ilyana is a freaking stat-brute who gets at LEAST five stats a level, Micaiah is a speedster until she hardrams her cap, Titania only gets 1-2 stats per level-up (not kidding), and Edward is easily the strongest of the DB with constant STR level-ups. Least we don't have a community like LoL. Imagine if someone played Lyre because they liked her and people had the same attitude as LoL/CoD players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Now, not joking, I know that most of us simply tier for tiering itself. A tier list only has two uses, to professionals looking to improve their game and newbies with no experience. It's not helpful for either of those. You have to understand why they're there to understand their value, and the two are going to look for completely different things in units, anyways. A character guide or, you know, discussion are what will help people. Tiering itself is not the end, it is the means to one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I actually agree that a guide would be better... ... ... You know what? Screw it. I'm gonna start making a guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I actually agree that a guide would be better... ... ... You know what? Screw it. I'm gonna start making a guide. dont do it it wont end well for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 (edited) Oh, this is being posted in. Too be honest, it's pretty sad that tiering for these older games is pretty dead. I mean, yea, it means the people have managed to make a list most people are satisfied with, but also that they have explored every option they deem 'acceptable' and aren't trying new ones. Course, it also means they're playing newer games as well, so that's a plus. Though I would like it if the joke entries and 'Sword Art Online' tier got removed. Just put Lyre at the bottom. I actually find it strange that you would find it "sad" that tiering is basically dead since I thought you hated tiering. You may be right about one thing; it's pretty insulting to Lyre to have her in "Sword Art Online" tier. She's not that bad. No, wait. She is. I'd say this Tier list is about 98% correct which is as high as you can really ever get it, I mean I can argue that Jill (T) should be above Mia (T) and Oscar (T) but someone else can easily disagree.With how my own views and opinions in general have changed, even I can find multiple things on the list I now disagree with. I mean, if people start to care again, maybe we can get on it, but I'm not sure I see that happening. Edited October 1, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I don't hate tiering. I hate LTC tiering. Even then, I don't hate using turns as a way to measure unit quality, but people who go 'well, since the ONLY thing we care about is turncounts if we sit down and set up a shove chain and utilize a rescue-drop here, on this turn, and here, X unit can possibly shave off one turn' as well as 'you're NOT using turncounts as the method to validate your tier list? LoL. You must be stupid! Your tier list sucks and you will never, ever, make any progress on it'. I've used LTC-based arguments before. Just look at the old FE9 tier topic (the last few pages) in which I used one to argue Mia > Zihark. I just hate thinking that that is all a tier-list can be; ranking based on turncounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 Even then, I don't hate using turns as a way to measure unit quality, but people who go 'well, since the ONLY thing we care about is turncounts if we sit down and set up a shove chain and utilize a rescue-drop here, on this turn, and here, X unit can possibly shave off one turn'Never say something like this in a thread I started again, I swear to God, Snowy. (Not saying you're breaking rules or anything, it just pisses me off to no end) I would be willing to try a slightly new approach for the list if there's interest, but it would still be heavily turn-count based. This list was never "LTC," though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nflchamp Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Right, well this seems like a good time to post a minor argument. Lethe > Vika. Vika is in part 1, but her utility isn't all that great and her combat is poor even here. She's fine in 1-7 - she starts transformed. After that, getting her to transformation is probably taking too long and a poor use of grass considering her combat isn't really better than a DB scrub. Once she comes back in part 4, she's completely worthless for combat. At best she can save someone else the trouble of opening something or otherwise die for the cause. Lethe has part 2, where she helps a little clearing enemies in the way in 2-2 and can work on strike level in 2-E for however long we stay there. Part 3, she'll need resources, but can function alright. She'll probably want some of Elincia's BEXP (~3000) to get SPD to ensure doubling non-SM throughout part 3 w/ 26 SPD. If she gets the 2-E energy drop she'll be at 30 Atk and 4HKO most non-general things (2HKO mages, 3HKO SM and possibly Warriors) in 3-4 when she re-joins. Things will stay that way until 3-8, where Halbs will fall to 5HKO and Warriors are 4HKO. However, if she gets S-strike she'll be at 35 Atk. In 3-8 and 3-10 that means she'll 3-4HKO Halbs, 3HKO Warriors/Snipers/Paladins, and 2HKO SMs. At 3-11, SMs become 3HKO again and Halbs are strictly 4HKO, but that's it. If she were lucky enough to level and gain STR in addition to strike level she'll possibly 2HKO Warriors in 3-8 and 3-10 (though not 3-11 and further) and 3HKO Halbs easily. In Part 4 she'll probably go Silver army. In 4-P she'll 3HKO most non-general with 35 Atk. 37 Atk guarantees 3HKOs against non-generals. She'll also need 28 SPD or fail to double some enemies. By 4-3 she's completely obsolete unless she has SS-strike, in which case she'll generally 3-4HKO. Obviously she has cat gauge for all of this, hindering her. It's by no means a masterful performance, but it's decent enough, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 It sounds like a solid argument. I'd also like to point out that 'poor but possible' also applies to Lethe. I.E. while it may be a poor use of resources to jump her up to 'good' combat levels, it's at least possible to do so and Lethe can at least help. Won't argue that it's not-as-good as if we game the same resources to other units, but it's still better than Vika's non-existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 2, 2013 Author Share Posted October 2, 2013 I can get behind Lethe > Vika. Vika really may need to drop even more. I think we tended to overstate her actual usefulness in part 1, because really, not only is she not very good there on her own, she has to share the very limited Grass with Muarim, who is much better. And while Lethe isn't great in part 3 by any means, at least she's usable. Vika is beyond saving when she returns in part 4. Anyone opposed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I agree with Lethe over vika definetely. Vika is just trash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irysa Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Vika is your only flying unit on that swamp map. That's kinda helpful since you want to keep all the NPCs alive and without her you can't get the DK to be baited for Tormod IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Vika's contributions amount to like, 2 chapters, neither of which she's absolutely critical for (though she is definitely helpful for 1-8). Lethe isn't that great in her forced chapters either, but she does have actual time to climb out of her rut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 speaking of characters who contribute in like maybe 4 or 5 chapters, volug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottlegnomes Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 speaking of characters who contribute in like maybe 4 or 5 chapters, volug Wat. Volug has at least 5 chapters of being one of your best units. After that, he's still very solid in part 3 and can actually be used fairly well in part 4 if he gets his strike up and you're willing to give him grass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Wat. Volug has at least 5 chapters of being one of your best units. After that, he's still very solid in part 3 and can actually be used fairly well in part 4 if he gets his strike up and you're willing to give him grass. So how much babying in his 5 chapters does he need in order to be worthy of his tier position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Wat. Volug has at least 5 chapters of being one of your best units. After that, he's still very solid in part 3 and can actually be used fairly well in part 4 if he gets his strike up and you're willing to give him grass. perma-1 range is donkey dicks, he's underperforming Sothe from the getgo even ignoring the range disparity, and needing resource use simply to survive part 4 when you have about 900 options for nonresource-using part 4 units isn't in his favor in fact when youve got nailah tibarn naesala etc in part 4 who can more or less stomp maps on their own, not to mention dudes like haar and whoever you decided to pump exp into during part 3, he's just gonna be a liability, slowing you down at best and compromising strats at worst he's literally only in 6 chapters where you don't have a laguz royal on your team who he has no hope competing with, and in 2 of those 6 chapters you have tauroneo who is also lightyears ahead of him he is never a standout except in 1-5, the fire mages who derp around in the one conceivable place you want to send him in 1-6-2 only exacerbate the issue that for all his 49 HP and whateverthefuck move sothe can do the jeigan shit 10000 times better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 3, 2013 Author Share Posted October 3, 2013 So how much babying in his 5 chapters does he need in order to be worthy of his tier position?Try none. He just needs to hit stuff enough. Getting S strike by part 3, or early in 3-6, is pretty easy, and with that he's great. I could potentially see Sothe higher but not really anyone else nearby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClLoulD Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 perma-1 range is donkey dicks, he's underperforming Sothe from the getgo even ignoring the range disparity, and needing resource use simply to survive part 4 when you have about 900 options for nonresource-using part 4 units isn't in his favor All Laguz have 1 range so I don't see that as something he should be ranked down for especially as the part of the game he joins in having that 1-2 range isn't really necessary and any of the characters in those earlier chapters who have access to 1-2 range (Besides arguably Nolan) don't contribute as much as Volug. As for the needed resources, he needs none just don't use him in Part IV and with the units you have in Part IV why would you need to use him anyway? in fact when youve got nailah tibarn naesala etc in part 4 who can more or less stomp maps on their own, not to mention dudes like haar and whoever you decided to pump exp into during part 3, he's just gonna be a liability, slowing you down at best and compromising strats at worst Nailah, Tibarn and Naesala, also units who are perma locked 1-range which is the same thing that you used in your argument to put Volug down? Yet these characters can stomp maps on their own? If so that must be a disastrous turn count and inefficient playing style. he's literally only in 6 chapters where you don't have a laguz royal on your team who he has no hope competing with, and in 2 of those 6 chapters you have tauroneo who is also lightyears ahead of him The Laguz royal being Nailah? Indeed he can't compete with Nailah but that doesn't mean he just shouldn't be used, he isn't competiting for his spot in the dawn brigade because he's still very useful by your logic no one can compete with Nailah so I'll just use her and her alone in her chapters. As for the whole Tauroneo nonesense, Volug can cover a lot of ground at a much faster rate, take Chapter 6-2 for example I find him amazing in that chapter getting up to Fiona. and helping her break across that bridge. he is never a standout except in 1-5, the fire mages who derp around in the one conceivable place you want to send him in 1-6-2 only exacerbate the issue that for all his 49 HP and whateverthefuck move sothe can do the jeigan shit 10000 times better Or have units like Sothe defending the left flank whilst Volug and Jill get up to Fiona in 1-6-2 and work together to get as many of those green units out, Sothe can't compete with Volug's move and Jill has the advantage of flight + Sothe is more valuable elsewhere. Resonses in bold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 I will agree that Volug isn't a good Part 4 unit. 1 range lock + gauge+ unimpressive offense (I don't think SS Strike is reasonable for efficiency) isn't a good combination. He does significantly help clear 1-6, 1-7, 1-8, 1-E, 3-6 and 3-13 though....maybe not a Top tier unit now that I think about it. Lethe probably has a bit less temporary utility compared to Vika, but she's significantly more salvageable long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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