OMG it's a tier list

[_____]

Ilyanna should be at the middle. Not lower middle in my opinion.

1)She comes early in the game and is available quite often through out the game. To level her up is not that difficult.

2) Thunder may be a problem in the game, but really most of the time she doesn't miss. So I think people are making a big issue about it.

3) Her speed is not much of a problem either. She tends to cap speed when she becomes a Arch Sage. She always manage to double hit particular units except Swordmasters.

4) Her caps are low compared to other Arch Sages but there is not much difference.

5) SHE ROCKS WITH REXBOLT!

So she is not the best unit but I do believe she is worthy to be in the middle.

She's overleveled, so leveling her up CAN be difficult. She gains less experience than, say, Edward or Nolan. She also has no durability whatsoever. She can't dodge, she can't take a hit, and she has lol HP.

Thunder has bad accuracy, and she's only going to get 15 speed before she promotes. You have to forge a tome to double with her on the later Part 1 chapters. Don't even get me started on the Part 3 chapters, where she's now severely underleveled.

She's 1 point off of capping it as an Arch Sage, but she's 5 points off from capping it as a Thunder Mage, and 2 points off from capping it as a Thunder Sage. She's doubling... armours? She can't double much, if anything, else.

Actually, there is. Those 2 extra Speed and 5 extra HP count more than Ilyana's 2 extra Res. Soren's extra speed is the difference between doubling and not doubling.

Maybe in 4-E-3. Otherwise, no.

[Lord Raven]

1)She comes early in the game and is available quite often through out the game. To level her up is not that difficult.

In Part I, it isn't difficult. In Part III, she comes behind par in relation to enemy units and isn't doing that well.

3) Her speed is not much of a problem either. She tends to cap speed when she becomes a Arch Sage. She always manage to double hit particular units except Swordmasters.

Sadly, not even until third tier. Ilyana will always have doubling problems except very early on.

[Florete]

You have to forge a tome to double with her on the later Part 1 chapters.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to point out that forging her a tome won't make any difference in her ability to DA since she already has enough strength to wield even Elthunder.

[Doom103]

Is this a teir list of how useful people are or stats, either way Caineghis has great stats and is useful.

idk why Reyson is top

I really don't know much about all the science behind who is better or worse, I only play a fe games once, maybe twice and I only use people I like so yeah, fill me in : D

[Lord Raven]

it's about an overall judgment of quality with a bunch of things like opportunity costs and availability and etc being factored in

Reyson is top because of high move + canto + being able to replenish four chars after promotion.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[_____]

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just wanted to point out that forging her a tome won't make any difference in her ability to DA since she already has enough strength to wield even Elthunder.

Alright. My mistake. In that case, she won't be doubling at all.

Is this a teir list of how useful people are or stats, either way Caineghis has great stats and is useful.

idk why Reyson is top

I really don't know much about all the science behind who is better or worse, I only play a fe games once, maybe twice and I only use people I like so yeah, fill me in : D

FE tier lists take availability, combat abilities, secondary abilities (like stealing and refreshing), usefulness to the rest of the team, and a whole bunch of other stuff to decide where everyone goes.

it's about an overall judgment of quality with a bunch of things like opportunity costs and availability and etc being factored in

Reyson is top because of high move + canto + being able to replenish four chars after promotion.

*Transforming?

[Doom103]

Ike should be higher than Haar, Great weapon whcih doesn't break, ranged and Ike;s stats are monstor, Ike gets better support shit I think too

[Florete]

I actually think Ike > Haar as well but I haven't argued it.

[Liz]

i dunno. Haar is pretty godly in RD. sometimes even more reliable than Ike...

[Saaji]

The reason why Haar is soo amazing is that he's among your top 5 best[probably best to be honest] units whenever he's around except for endgame, Ike is great but with the auto promotion his uses in part three is sometimes a bit tricky cause its easy to have him ram level 20 and then be forced not to do anything for the rest of part three.

[Mekkah]

Ike should be higher than Haar, Great weapon whcih doesn't break, ranged and Ike;s stats are monstor, Ike gets better support shit I think too

"Haar should be higher than Ike, axes > swords, ranged weapons before Ike gets Ragnell, and Haar's stats are monstor, Haar also can fly and has Part 2"

When saying why Character A > Character B, you don't just list a bunch of good stuff about Character A, you have to argue why Character A's good stuff matters more than Character B's good stuff.

Ike is great but with the auto promotion his uses in part three is sometimes a bit tricky cause its easy to have him ram level 20 and then be forced not to do anything for the rest of part three.

All his auto promotion does is stop him from growing past L20, but it doesn't force him to stop fighting. It's similar to FE8 Seth's higher level stopping him from growing as fast as Franz, but it doesn't mean he should be used less. Ike is still a good combat unit at L20. He's not any less entitled to kills than anyone else. Of course, since he level caps, the player may choose to give EXP that otherwise would go to Ike to other people, but this is more of an advantage than a disadvantage.

[Paperblade]

Ike should be higher than Haar, Great weapon whcih doesn't break, ranged and Ike;s stats are monstor, Ike gets better support shit I think too

Haar rapes Part 2 and the early half of Part 3 silly, also has monster stats, and can fly.

Haar also does not fall behind until 4-E-4, since has lolhammer for 4-E-1, 4-E-2 is a joke and can be 2-3 turned without trying (1 turned if you really care), and everyone doubles in 4-E-3. And in 4-E-4 he can use the Brave Axe.

[Florete]

I truly think Ike > Haar. He, unlike Haar, reliably one-rounds for almost the entire game because he doubled fairly reliably, which Haar doesn't after part 2 (and he doesn't double much in 2-E anyway).

Also, Ike has Earth affinity, so he's a support partner everyone wants. This is increasing Ike's already great durability by adding the fact that he likely won't even be hit. He also gives that durability to someone else who needs it, like Soren. +30 avoid is very nice for someone with fairly low speed like Soren.

I don't know if authority stars count in his favor, but his 3 stars are helping his team just because he's there.

Then there's the fact that Ike has 100 shots of Ettard and eventually Ragnell, so unless you throw him a Wind Edge for range before receiving Ragnell, he never has to compete with others for weapons.

Also, especially with a transfer that he can get fairly easily, he caps strength, skill, and defense fairly quickly, allowing him to get BEXP to take great advantage of his higher speed cap. Even if Haar gets that treatment, his speed cap is, IIRC, 6 lower at tier 2 and 4 or 5 lower at tier 3.

There's also the fact that Ike doesn't take a unit slot for endgame. Haar does.

Haar may have great utility as a tank and a flier, but I think Ike's combat + support + the rest of my post > Haar's tanking and utility.

[Killer Poleax]

I agree with Red Fox's post. There are times where I feel like Haar isn't doing as good as most people say he is. They're both awesome but I feel like Ike is a little better for the same reasons as Red Fox. Haar's low speed growth and speed cap brings him down a little.

Edited January 13, 2009 by KSFF2150

[Lord Raven]

Haar x Oscar gives the same benefits (durability wise) as Ike x Soren.

[Mekkah]

For that, Haar is taking away a potential Earth support from everyone not him though, while Ike is _giving_ an Earth support to other people. Also, the benefits stop when Haar flies off, like in 3-7, or whenever ledges are involved. And in Part 4, Oscar is terrified of both Micaiah and Tibarn's route, while Haar loves going to those for the same reason (the terrain in the second map).

I never thought about Ike's Part 4 being so much >>>> Haar's, and if Haar's Part 3 lead is, if there at all, not huge, and Part 2 is only 2 chapters...so yeah, I could agree with Ike > Haar.

[dondon151]

Haar's unrestricted movement in addition to his ability to solo parts of maps without danger is, in my experiences, a huge asset. He bypasses enemies, picks off troublesome units, and rescues endangered allies while being able to minimize risks to himself thanks to Canto. In terms of concrete durability, Haar is consistently better than Ike, and Ike's earth support takes a few chapters to build up until it actually makes a significant contribution to overall durability.

His role in 2-P and 2-E are paramount - in 2-E he's the only one who one-rounds the dragon masters (maybe Nealuchi can, I can't remember) and can defeat the boss in less than like... 3 rounds; in 2-P he's your most durable and your second most offensively potent unit and flies between levels unrestricted. Ike's chapters... 3-P is easy and 3-1 might be kind of difficult; he's still your best character in those chapters, though. Then Haar joins in 3-2.

Haar's better than Ike in 3-2 due to large map, he's pretty much mandatory in 3-3, he destroys everyone else in 3-4, then they're probably about even for a few maps. Haar is better in 3-7 because of swamps and rivers, 3-10 because he gets to Elincia earlier, and 3-11 because of the pitfalls, even if Ike gets Ragnell that chapter (actually most of this is the same thing as the Haar vs. Reyson debate lol). Especially in 3-4 and 3-10, even if Haar doesn't one-round enemies, his movement range is such that he gets a lot of enemies all to himself.

Part 4, Ike has his own group. Haar can go with Micaiah to help them in the desert or he can go with Tibarn to help them in the swamp (though as Mekkah pointed out, Haar likely won't be giving support bonuses this way). Ike's pretty good in his own chapters as well and probably will be giving an earth support to someone. Haar does reasonably well in 4-E-1 with sufficient speed and access to Hammer, but Ike does better in the other 4-E chapters.

Edited January 13, 2009 by dondon151

[Killer Poleax]

Oscar's not that bad on Tibarn's team. He does have limited movement in those few patches of grass in 4-2 but it's only a minor problem. Once he's past that, he's good for the rest of the chapter. 4-5, the laguz usually come to your characters anyways so movement's not a big problem here for anyone unless you're trying to chase down Izuka. Even if he's better on Ike's team, he's still good on Tibarn's team.

Edited January 13, 2009 by KSFF2150

[Florete]

Haar's unrestricted movement in addition to his ability to solo parts of maps without danger is, in my experiences, a huge asset. He bypasses enemies, picks off troublesome units, and rescues endangered allies while being able to minimize risks to himself thanks to Canto. In terms of concrete durability, Haar is consistently better than Ike, and Ike's earth support takes a few chapters to build up until it actually makes a significant contribution to overall durability.

Ike's durability (44 HP, 21 Def, 7 Res, 60 avo) at base is perfectly fine, even compared to Haar's (46 HP, 23 Def, 7 Res [but with Thunder weakness], 53 avo), who is only just beating him anyway. This is, of course, comparing them at base level, which they won't be upon joining, but it doesn't change much. They are still the most durable units on the team. The thing is, Ike has that affinity that grants him a lot more avoid, making his overall durability even better by dodging things.

His role in 2-P and 2-E are paramount - in 2-E he's the only one who one-rounds the dragon masters (maybe Nealuchi can, I can't remember) and can defeat the boss in less than like... 3 rounds; in 2-P he's your most durable and your second most offensively potent unit and flies between levels unrestricted. Ike's chapters... 3-P is easy and 3-1 might be kind of difficult; he's still your best character in those chapters, though. Then Haar joins in 3-2.

I believe you switched 2-E and 2-P up. Yes, Haar is great for those chapters; part of the reason he's top tier. However, he isn't game-breaking either; you still have units like Elincia (for offense and healing), Brom and Mordecai (for tanking), and Leanne. To be fair, Ike's first few chapters aren't tough either because of their awesome units, but I can say with confidence he's likely the best character in his first 2 chapters. By the time they join, Ike will have at least a C support anyway.

Haar's better than Ike in 3-2 due to large map, he's pretty much mandatory in 3-3, he destroys everyone else in 3-4, then they're probably about even for a few maps. Haar is better in 3-7 because of swamps and rivers, 3-10 because he gets to Elincia earlier, and 3-11 because of the pitfalls, even if Ike gets Ragnell that chapter (actually most of this is the same thing as the Haar vs. Reyson debate lol). Especially in 3-4 and 3-10, even if Haar doesn't one-round enemies, his movement range is such that he gets a lot of enemies all to himself.

In 3-2, you have to be careful of Mr. Bolting. That guy is hungry for dragons. In 3-3, yes he is awesome for burning supplies, especially the one behind the tent. In 3-4 he still has some mages to worry about, so he's not exactly perfect on his own there either. And I think there's also an enemy with a Wyrmslayer on that one. 4-5, they're rather even likely, especially with Reyson around now. 3-7, Haar flies away to pick off some Dragons, but still has to beware of the Sages around there. However, in 3-7, Ike needs to fight the BK to recruit Lehran later as well, so he's busting through after recruiting Janaff and Ulki for that. In 3-8, I'd call it Ike's since Haar's movement has been restricted. In 3-10, getting to Elincia is hardly an advantage; she can't be killed on the first enemy phase and the CRK's surround her immediately. 3-11, covering pitfalls is great, but you still have Leanne, Tanith, and Sigrun forced, as well as access to Marcia, so Haar doing that isn't so special. 3-E, I'd call it even.

Part 4, Ike has his own group. Haar can go with Micaiah to help them in the desert or he can go with Tibarn to help them in the swamp (though as Mekkah pointed out, Haar likely won't be giving support bonuses this way). Ike's pretty good in his own chapters as well and probably will be giving an earth support to someone. Haar does reasonably well in 4-E-1 with sufficient speed and access to Hammer, but Ike does better in the other 4-E chapters.

Come part 4, I think Ike's lead is more obvious. Haar is only special in Micaiah's group for the desert, but even that has Elsleep and Purges to beware of, and the Black Knight to compete with. And again, Haar giving a support isn't as easy when he's flying around over a desert unless it's with another flier or magic user.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Lord Raven]

I believe you switched 2-E and 2-P up. Yes, Haar is great for those chapters; part of the reason he's top tier. However, he isn't game-breaking either; you still have units like Elincia (for offense and healing), Brom and Mordecai (for tanking), and Leanne. To be fair, Ike's first few chapters aren't tough either because of their awesome units, but I can say with confidence he's likely the best character in his first 2 chapters. By the time they join, Ike will have at least a C support anyway.

He's destroying everyone in performance in 2-P, he's destroying most people (not stuff like Elincia and Leanne) in performance in 2-E. He's ahead of Elincia and Leanne too because he can take the entire east side to himself, while Nephenee can have a hard time surviving enemy turns and Brom is rather slow. Haar needs healing every couple turns; a Vulnerary can do to prepare for the thunder mage or Elincia's Mend/Physic... and Haar can, after attacking on his own turn, flee back and get Leanne to bring him back.

Or he can beat the chapter in a couple turns with a Hammer.

In 3-2, you have to be careful of Mr. Bolting.

IT's not that hard to count to 10 and send a hand axe that motherfucker's way.

In 3-4 he still has some mages to worry about, so he's not exactly perfect on his own there either. And I think there's also an enemy with a Wyrmslayer on that one.

If this is the one with the shitloads of cliffs, his movement >>>>>>>>> everyone else's.

3-7, Haar flies away to pick off some Dragons, but still has to beware of the Sages around there.

There are like two. Which a vulnerary use can easily fix.

However, in 3-7, Ike needs to fight the BK to recruit Lehran later as well, so he's busting through after recruiting Janaff and Ulki for that.

Haar is a candidate to ferry him. Janaff and Ulki come to Ike anyway.

In 3-8, I'd call it Ike's since Haar's movement has been restricted.

I'm inclined to agree.

3-11, covering pitfalls is great, but you still have Leanne, Tanith, and Sigrun forced, as well as access to Marcia, so Haar doing that isn't so special. 3-E, I'd call it even.

Leanne can't take a shot for shit. Tanith and Sigrun have a terrible time with attacks too; isn't there an Elwind sage nearby as well as a load of physical units?

Come part 4, I think Ike's lead is more obvious. Haar is only special in Micaiah's group for the desert, but even that has Elsleep and Purges to beware of, and the Black Knight to compete with. And again, Haar giving a support isn't as easy when he's flying around over a desert unless it's with another flier or magic user.

I actually don't think Haar needs support.

Elsleep has like two uses and he's too far away to get hit. You've also got Micaiah with humongous move to use a Restore staff or something on him, and Purges are fairly inaccurate. If you get hit by a Purge, he can still afford to use a vulnerary; in fact he can actually afford to pick off the Purge Bishop and he can do it faster than most others. Save Naesala.

Competition with the Black Knight? Pah, he has two move per turn.

[Paperblade]

Ike's durability (44 HP, 21 Def, 7 Res, 60 avo) at base is perfectly fine, even compared to Haar's (46 HP, 23 Def, 7 Res [but with Thunder weakness], 53 avo), who is only just beating him anyway. This is, of course, comparing them at base level, which they won't be upon joining, but it doesn't change much. They are still the most durable units on the team. The thing is, Ike has that affinity that grants him a lot more avoid, making his overall durability even better by dodging things.

Haar also has a better Defense growth by a good margin as well as actually getting more Avoid on level ups because of a higher Luck growth (35% Speed/30% Luck < 30% Speed/45% Luck for Avoid, albeit by a VERY slight amount).

I believe you switched 2-E and 2-P up. Yes, Haar is great for those chapters; part of the reason he's top tier. However, he isn't game-breaking either; you still have units like Elincia (for offense and healing), Brom and Mordecai (for tanking), and Leanne.

Elincia cannot attack and heal at the same time, and forced Stave equipping on healing mean she can't even counter unless I go out of my way and move someone next to her to trade. Elincia also has the misfortune of leaving the team until Part 4 after this chapter, so Haar has the advantage of EXP gained by him directly improving Part 3 performance for the GMs while Elincia... doesn't. Also, Elincia gets 1EXP for killing most enemies on the map, whereas she still gets full staff EXP, so even ignoring her leaving the team for a while it is more EXP efficient to have her heal in most situations.

Haar has more Defense than Brom as well as far superior offense and mobility. He has better offense than Mordy, although I will admit than Mordy wins Defense while transformed.

Haar can also easily OHKO Armors/Generals with the 2-3 Hammer (Marcia can ferry it) whereas Brom is borderline and needs a support or similar.

To be fair, Ike's first few chapters aren't tough either because of their awesome units, but I can say with confidence he's likely the best character in his first 2 chapters.

Titania? Oscar? Ike is locked to 1 range for the first 2 chapters since you don't have access to Wind Edges, whereas Titania and Oscar have horses (and there's only 1 single Horseslayer in both chapters combined, and it's on an enemy that doesn't move) and both START with 1-2 ranged weapons in their inventory.

In 3-2, you have to be careful of Mr. Bolting. That guy is hungry for dragons.

One enemy that does ~12 more damage to Haar than he does to anyone else, and that's if Haar doesn't have Nullify equipped (and before you mention other units might want it, I'd like to point the myriad of other flyers and Laguz we have at this point that... wait a minute, there aren't any. And the 3-P Horseslayer is pretty much the only Horseslayer in Part 3).

In 3-3, yes he is awesome for burning supplies, especially the one behind the tent.

This is a bit of an understatement. Haar's ability to fly combined with his massive durability allows him to fly around and get the crates (as well as pretty much end the chapter whenever you damn well feel like it), which is very important because this chapter is heavy on annoying to kill enemies like Halbs and SMs that no one but Mia is doubling (and Mia is being 3HKO'd by SMs or something last I checked which doesn't say much for her durability vs. anyone else) plus Generals sitting on chokepoints and thickets to slow you down and Senators to steal from and tents to get items from and a boss with a drop (Shade is a pretty useful skill at that). To add the burden of having to go burn all these crates that are often out of the way or off in a corner would just be an added burden on my team. Considering Haar is the only flyer at this point (and a damn good unit even without that), no one else you could possibly field helps more than Haar does, because he can solo the only required portion of the map, leaving the other 10 or so units fielded to go do the optional funtime stuff like get EXP and shiny items.

In 3-4 he still has some mages to worry about, so he's not exactly perfect on his own there either. And I think there's also an enemy with a Wyrmslayer on that one.

You mean the fire mages that are going to be going after the 1 range Laguz and that he can one round with a Hand Axe anyway? Haar doesn't care about Mages unless they've got powerful Thunder magic and halfway reasonable hit. Fire/Wind/lolbishops are a joke, and Haar's Res base is the same as Ike's and his growth is actually higher, and I can only remember 1 Thunder Sage for sure in that chapter, and MAYBE 3 at most (but the 2 that are maybes don't move last I checked).

3-5, they're rather even likely, especially with Reyson around now.

Canto means Haar can better set himself up for x4 refreshes and means Reyson doesn't have to move as close to the frontlines when he's untransformed if he's singing for Haar.

Haar can also use the Horseslayer OR the Hammer, which is nice because the entire southern and eastern area is a Paladin and General-fest. Ike has neither. Who needs to double when you can OHKO 70% of the map?

3-7, Haar flies away to pick off some Dragons, but still has to beware of the Sages around there.

Again: If they're not Thunder, Haar cares less than Ike does. And it's not like Haar is required to go off on the other side of the map killing Dragonmasters. Also, again, Nullify.

However, in 3-7, Ike needs to fight the BK to recruit Lehran later as well, so he's busting through after recruiting Janaff and Ulki for that.

Ike needs to be speed blessed and/or have a Speedwing to fight the BK without dying. If you're going to argue Ike getting above average Speed, then I'm going to argue Haar gets above average Speed, which is just going to shoot you to hell because Haar with above average Speed means we have a 9 Move flying fortress that doesn't die and rapes everything in sight.

Additionally, no one is going to put Mist or Rhys (or even crown'd Soren) next to Ike right after he just fought the bloody Burger King, so healing him is out of the question, which means he needs a flyer to rescue him (horsies can't get in range because lolswamp).

In 3-8, I'd call it Ike's since Haar's movement has been restricted.

"Ike wins because previously Haar had 9 Move and Ike had 7, but now Ike wins because they both have 7 move and Haar still has superior Str/Def and neither are doubling anyway because their Speed growths are crap and Ike's speed base is now unable to carry him to victory."

Haar can still fly over cliffs and canto off of lollava spots.

In 3-10, getting to Elincia is hardly an advantage; she can't be killed on the first enemy phase and the CRK's surround her immediately.

How about being able to fly further out to stop the stupid NPCs from wasting my weapon uses? They have a love of spamming the most expensive weapon they have, so if you didn't take off a Killer weapon or Brave or something they'll be using it and we'll be getting 0 EXP. There's also a distinct lack of lolsages, so Haar can actually fly out and rape everything without you crying wolf because there might be a Thunder Sage out there that does like 15 damage to him if it hits while he still has like 30HP left and everything else is doing like 5.

3-11, covering pitfalls is great, but you still have Leanne, Tanith, and Sigrun forced, as well as access to Marcia, so Haar doing that isn't so special.

Can Haar do it? Yes.

Can Ike do it? No.

Haar has an advantage, regardless of how many "other" people can do it. They're not Ike, they're unimportant for a Haar vs. Ike comparison regardless of whether or not they "can" do it. It's not like Haar is being fielded ONLY to provide his services covering up holes (if anything, it helps that Haar is far superior to all of them at this point in the game, and Leanne is frail as all hell even when transformed)

3-E, I'd call it even.

3-E enemies are, on average, lower level than 3-11 enemies, which means Haar has a better chance of doubling, plus he has a Stun proc while Ike is still stuck unpromoted.

Come part 4, I think Ike's lead is more obvious. Haar is only special in Micaiah's group for the desert, but even that has Elsleep and Purges to beware of, and the Black Knight to compete with. And again, Haar giving a support isn't as easy when he's flying around over a desert unless it's with another flier or magic user.

If anything, Ike's lead is less obvious. Part 4 enemies are not much stronger than Part 3 enemies for the first couple chapters, yet give loads more EXP. Every single chapter prior to 4-E has huge physical obstacles (4-P has the river/thickets/walls, 4-1 has walls and mountains, 4-2 has thickets, 4-3 is a desert, 4-4 has ledges, and 4-5 is a swamp) that Haar can easily fly over while unmounted people could easily be moving as slowly as 22% as many spaces as Haar (7 Move unit in desert) and at best moving 100% (indoor moving full distance without gaps factored in, since Haar gets a -2 move penalty).

Also: Haar is better for BEXP. Haar has 3 really high growths in stats that he has rather high bases in (Str/Skl/Def). Ike is only realistically going to cap Skill and maybe Str, everything else is either too high a cap or too crappy a growth. Additionally, Haar promoting gives him +2 Speed, which is potentially going to see him doubling stuff while Ike is still failing at doubling.

Ike as a BEXP unit suffers from the fact that his 2 highest growths in both tiers have very high caps (65% HP with a 65 cap: the highest of any beorc unit, and 60% Skill with a 40 cap, also the highest of any beorc unit) and that his third highest (Strength) is not realistically going to be capped until near the end of the game. Meanwhile, Haar is going to cap Strength very early into Tier 3 (20/10 or so) with Skill/Def 2-3 levels later. Skill starts 2 away from the cap and Defense 3 away.

[Florete]

Haar also has a better Defense growth by a good margin as well as actually getting more Avoid on level ups because of a higher Luck growth (35% Speed/30% Luck < 30% Speed/45% Luck for Avoid, albeit by a VERY slight amount).

That's not entirely true. Given time and level-ups is also getting supports, and Ike is getting much more avoid from supports than Haar, meaning his avoid will always be better.

Elincia cannot attack and heal at the same time, and forced Stave equipping on healing mean she can't even counter unless I go out of my way and move someone next to her to trade. Elincia also has the misfortune of leaving the team until Part 4 after this chapter, so Haar has the advantage of EXP gained by him directly improving Part 3 performance for the GMs while Elincia... doesn't. Also, Elincia gets 1EXP for killing most enemies on the map, whereas she still gets full staff EXP, so even ignoring her leaving the team for a while it is more EXP efficient to have her heal in most situations.

None of it changes the fact that she's the best combat unit you have. She can kill the early Crossbow guy on the first turn before he can attack her and stay away from the rest, so even that isn't a disadvantage for her, yet Haar still has a few Thunder Mages to worry about from both sides. "EXP effinciency" means nothing.

Titania? Oscar? Ike is locked to 1 range for the first 2 chapters since you don't have access to Wind Edges, whereas Titania and Oscar have horses (and there's only 1 single Horseslayer in both chapters combined, and it's on an enemy that doesn't move) and both START with 1-2 ranged weapons in their inventory.

Neither have as much Speed, and though Titania is arguable, I don't recall Oscar doing too well here.

One enemy that does ~12 more damage to Haar than he does to anyone else, and that's if Haar doesn't have Nullify equipped (and before you mention other units might want it, I'd like to point the myriad of other flyers and Laguz we have at this point that... wait a minute, there aren't any. And the 3-P Horseslayer is pretty much the only Horseslayer in Part 3).

Yes, there is no argument against him getting Nihil (except possibly taking Savior instead), but he can still be dealt almost 20 damage even with it, and since there are more enemies up there than lower in the chapter and he isn't actually invincible, this can leave him in a tough spot. Granted, it can do the same for Ike, except Ike is more likely to dodge it.

This is a bit of an understatement. Haar's ability to fly combined with his massive durability allows him to fly around and get the crates (as well as pretty much end the chapter whenever you damn well feel like it),

That in itself is kind of an overstatement. There are mages in almost every corner of this map, and the boss area can rape anyone that jumps in unprepared what with the two druids, the Bishop, and the other physical enemies.

You mean the fire mages that are going to be going after the 1 range Laguz and that he can one round with a Hand Axe anyway? Haar doesn't care about Mages unless they've got powerful Thunder magic and halfway reasonable hit. Fire/Wind/lolbishops are a joke, and Haar's Res base is the same as Ike's and his growth is actually higher, and I can only remember 1 Thunder Sage for sure in that chapter, and MAYBE 3 at most (but the 2 that are maybes don't move last I checked).

That's another overstatement. 15-20 damage that he isn't likely to dodge is nothing to laugh at, especially those 2 Elwind sages up the ledge that aren't likely seeing laguz action at all.

Again: If they're not Thunder, Haar cares less than Ike does. And it's not like Haar is required to go off on the other side of the map killing Dragonmasters. Also, again, Nullify.

Nullify doesn't boost his Resistance by 20. Haar actually cares more than Ike because Ike has built up a support for some great avoid by now, and Haar isn't getting any where he is. Don't forget that Sages aren't all that's out there; there are enemy dragonknight as well, and they can chip him down.

Ike needs to be speed blessed and/or have a Speedwing to fight the BK without dying. If you're going to argue Ike getting above average Speed, then I'm going to argue Haar gets above average Speed, which is just going to shoot you to hell because Haar with above average Speed means we have a 9 Move flying fortress that doesn't die and rapes everything in sight.

What about the part where Ike's speed cap is 6 higher than Haar's? (His 30 to Haar's 24) And Haar is less likely to get Speed from BEXP because he has more growths that are getting in the way than Ike. To clarify:

BEXP favors higher growths as anyone can probably assume. This means the stats with the highest growths are the most likely to go up from BEXP. Haar has three stats at 70%, and although he caps two fairly quickly, he's less likely to get the Speed he wants because of other growths either much higher or in the same area (Strength at 70%, HP at 30%, Luck at 45%, Resistance at 20%). Ike, on the other hand, generally has more evened out growths. In fact, with a transfer for Skill (It's at 56% so it isn't too unreasonable) he's already got his second highest growth capped. In fact, Speed is the most likely stat for him to get a transfer in at 78%. Not too shabby, especially considering Haar's best chance at a transfer is Strength at 7%. Anyway, Ike's Skill and Strength can both cap fairly quickly since they start close to capping. At this point, he's most likely getting HP, Speed, and Defense, possibly replacing Speed or Defense for Luck, not likely getting Resistance until another cap comes.

I hope I didn't digress too much with all of that. I don't even remember where I was planning on going.

Additionally, no one is going to put Mist or Rhys (or even crown'd Soren) next to Ike right after he just fought the bloody Burger King, so healing him is out of the question, which means he needs a flyer to rescue him (horsies can't get in range because lolswamp).

The BK moves. You can have him attack Ike on his phase and then bail.

How about being able to fly further out to stop the stupid NPCs from wasting my weapon uses? They have a love of spamming the most expensive weapon they have, so if you didn't take off a Killer weapon or Brave or something they'll be using it and we'll be getting 0 EXP.

There aren't many enemies over there for them to fight anyway. Having them fight isn't exactly bad either, since they can lose and still be safe, except Elincia of course, but she's under constant guard. Haar could fly south, but then there are four Bishops down there, one with Purge.

There's also a distinct lack of lolsages, so Haar can actually fly out and rape everything without you crying wolf because there might be a Thunder Sage out there that does like 15 damage to him if it hits while he still has like 30HP left and everything else is doing like 5

No Sages, but Bishops, and I think I recall a Sword Pally with a Wyrmslayer as well.

Can Haar do it? Yes.

Can Ike do it? No.

Point taken.

As for part 4, it's tough to argue. What Ike has is a full support built, helping him and another unit dodge practically everything, as well as doubling more consistently, especially if you factor in tier 2 BEXP and a possible transfer, while Haar still has his tanking and flier utility but isn't doubling (and therefore, one-rounding) as much. He will be better for BEXP, but that's not until later, probably endgame.

I will admit, I'm starting to lose hope in this argument. But I'm not done yet.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Killer Poleax]

65% HP with a 65 cap: the highest of any beorc unit

Reavers have a 68 HP cap.

[dondon151]

That's not entirely true. Given time and level-ups is also getting supports, and Ike is getting much more avoid from supports than Haar, meaning his avoid will always be better.

Ike will not get a support built up till 3-2 for C, 3-4 for B, and 3-7 for A. Until 3-4 or so, extra avoid reduces enemy hit rate to... an amount that will still hit Ike rather often. Haar's concrete durability is so good that there is almost no conceivable instance where he'll even be in danger of dying, bar being ganged up on by Elthunder sages.

None of it changes the fact that she's the best combat unit you have. She can kill the early Crossbow guy on the first turn before he can attack her and stay away from the rest, so even that isn't a disadvantage for her, yet Haar still has a few Thunder Mages to worry about from both sides. "EXP effinciency" means nothing.

Elincia has to take a counter from the Crossbow warrior - 2 shots of Amiti won't KO him. Elincia may be your best combat unit, but she is healing during every player phase. That also doesn't change the fact that Haar has a significant lead on everyone else.

Yes, there is no argument against him getting Nihil (except possibly taking Savior instead), but he can still be dealt almost 20 damage even with it, and since there are more enemies up there than lower in the chapter and he isn't actually invincible, this can leave him in a tough spot. Granted, it can do the same for Ike, except Ike is more likely to dodge it.

Ike has like... 10 more avo with Soren C. Haar's 25-26 def means he's getting scratched by physical units.

That in itself is kind of an overstatement. There are mages in almost every corner of this map, and the boss area can rape anyone that jumps in unprepared what with the two druids, the Bishop, and the other physical enemies.

How is this bad for Haar and good for anyone else in any way? In fact, most of your arguments are "but sages so Haar can't go anywhere near there and therefore is useless," which don't hinder Haar because not only are you admitting that Haar can do things that no one else can, but those same disadvantages apply to everyone else. Haar also one-rounds every magic user ever, so threats are immediately dispatched with a Hand Axe.

What about the part where Ike's speed cap is 6 higher than Haar's? (His 30 to Haar's 24) And Haar is less likely to get Speed from BEXP because he has more growths that are getting in the way than Ike.

What about the part where Ike will not reach his speed cap in any tier ever and Haar caps str, skl and def very early? Ike has other growths that "get in the way" of spd as well, and they "get in the way" more because those other stats don't cap early at all. And while Ike is gaining spd at 35% per level, Haar's cashing in on his +2 promotion bonus that Ike doesn't get until part 4.

Grr, I have to go now. I'll finish editing in the rest of this argument later, so please don't reply until I do.

Oops >.> I didn't read this far.

There aren't many enemies over there for them to fight anyway. Having them fight isn't exactly bad either, since they can lose and still be safe, except Elincia of course, but she's under constant guard. Haar could fly south, but then there are four Bishops down there, one with Purge.

Elincia is known for being dumb and charging into Crossbow/bow knight range, and even if she isn't, Haar comes to the rescue before anyone else.

As for part 4, it's tough to argue. What Ike has is a full support built, helping him and another unit dodge practically everything, as well as doubling more consistently, especially if you factor in tier 2 BEXP and a possible transfer, while Haar still has his tanking and flier utility but isn't doubling (and therefore, one-rounding) as much. He will be better for BEXP, but that's not until later, probably endgame.

Flier utility is where Haar beats Ike in part 4, though I'm willing to say that Ike is overall better near endgame than Haar.

Edited January 14, 2009 by dondon151

[HeroMystic]

One question:

If Jill and Zihark transitions over to the GM at 3-7, would that change their tier positions?