OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

Eddie...actually being something other than medicore? Don't make me laugh!

A defense even lousier than the argument of "he isn't Zihark"! So substantial, thank you for playing.

Way to jump the gun there. But then again, if you wouldn't hype something like there's no tomorrow, you might get somewhere. As I see it, this attempt at hype will be as futile as pretty much every last one of your other attempts at hype...

Edward starts having trouble doubling as early as 1-1. And it takes him a while before he stops getting weighed down by wind edges and steel swords.

[tehnikhil]

Cool, thanks :D. This board sure is a lot nicer than gamefaqs XD. Anyways, I am kinda wondering now, why is Kurth>Lethe and then Calill>Soren?

Kurth will be giving def and pissy attack for his 5 chapters, and no one really needs the def. Lethe on the other hand actually is mildly useful for her chapter 2 chapters. Yes, she sucks for part 3, but at least she has use for 2 chapters, unlike Kurth. I dunno actually when his def is useful. He may serve as a wall in 4e3, but you are trying to rush that kinda anyways, so using him as a wall doesn't work too well anyways.

As for Calill, wouldn't Soren have a major level lead by the time Calill comes to the GM's? I mean, Soren doesn't suck like Kurth so much the can't get to level 15ish come 3-11. Calill may at best get to 10 at that time assuming she gets paragon for 3-9. She does make getting nullify easier, but I still don't think that is enough to say that she is better than soren for that 1 thing. She may become better when they are both 3rd tier, but thanks to them both being pretty undereleveled (callil for sure, and maybe Soren), and the fail of mages, they will both have a hard time doubling and Calill's 2/4 endgame dominance doesn't seem enough to beat soren

[_____]

A defense even lousier than the argument of "he isn't Zihark"! So substantial, thank you for playing.

I'll say it again.

You said that Edward was similar to Zihark after you gave him quite a bit of favoritism (Don't even try to say that a Dracoshield, a forge, and a decent amount of BEXP when we don't have enough for that isn't favoritism). That was the lousy argument, not mine.

I wasn't talking about Edward vs. Calill.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

I'm trying to process the whole argument in my head, but...exactly how much BEXP are you giving Edward? This is not FE9, where you have shittons of BEXP laying around; Part I BEXP is incredibly limited, and if Eddie taking more BEXP actually does make everyone worse, that's hurting the efficiency of the team. Heaven help you if he gets the Dracoshield, because then you have to argue why him getting it is > other people getting it, as several people can see a substantial durability increase from it.

Let's not even get started on supports.

You do realize all I'm giving him is kill favoritism early on to help get through pre 1-6-2 part 1 faster, right? That is literally it. Everything else is a fucking second thought that holds no goddamn bearing on the main argument, and I apologize that it devolved into that. No shield, no whatever, just kill favoritism for helping quickly burn through part 1. Not BEXP favoritism, just kill favoritism. Is that so hard to understand?

Totally makes up for Eddie actually able to be something other than mediocre.

France, good sarcasm isn't easy. If you lay it on too thick, people get turned off by the sneering mockery. If you use too little, your posts are bland and boring. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker, or a pickpocket. When you do it correctly, people won't be sure if you were serious at all.

(Futurama is the greatest show ever)

I always was too asshole-ish with sarcasm. Youre right, I should improve.

Ninji, I can understand. but for some reason, the argument just turned into Zihark, because to move any DB these days, you have to measure them to Zihark for some reason.

Edited October 9, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

A defense even lousier than the argument of "he isn't Zihark"! So substantial, thank you for playing.

I'll say it again.

You said that Edward was similar to Zihark after you gave him quite a bit of favoritism (Don't even try to say that a Dracoshield, a forge, and a decent amount of BEXP when we don't have enough for that isn't favoritism). That was the lousy argument, not mine.

I wasn't talking about Edward vs. Calill.

I don't get this focus on a forge. Besides, I'd give one to Zihark too. In fact, Edward gets an iron forge in early part 1, Zihark needs a steel forge in part 3 just to compete with Ed's Caladbolg (once Ed's str growth finally starts working, so by 3-12), which was free. If you want to start assigning debt to forges, I'd have to say Zihark is more in debt there, since the steel forge costs more than the iron forge. Also, Ed doesn't need a draco to compete defensively in 3-12. Check their stats.

Just do a comparison with Z at level 8 or 9 after 3-6 and Ed at 18/5 or something. Ed gets Nolan, since Nolan benefits more from +def than avo and Leo and Aran aren't likely to be in play at the same time as Edward (And A Ed give Nolan an extra point of def 2 chapters earlier than Aran gives it to Nolan, so that might help in 1-8 and 1-E anyway). Zihark can have Jill or Volug or even Nolan as well, since Ed and Zihark aren't likely to be in play at the same time. Then give neither the dracoshield, or make the comparison with each having it. I suppose Ed probably scarfed up some of the bexp in part 1 to go from 20 exp to 35 exp or something at times just to get closer to the next level, but we can easily do the same thing for Zihark or let Z have paragon. Considering we have other units that can make use of paragon too, I'd say there is no relative debt to bumping up Ed's exp a little since we do the same for Zihark. Compare their stats. HP are similar, def is similar (Z probably wins if he supports Jill, otherwise Ed might win since Z didn't support +def, depends on the levels you use in your comparison), avo is similar (Ed wins by a couple with Caladbolg and A Nolan vs. Z with B Jill, and Z with B Volug/Nolan probably wins by a bit. In 3-12 Z can possibly pull off an A, but an A Jill still loses to Ed and Caladbolg, I think, so it's just the A Volug/Nolan that would cause a 13 or so gap. Again, it depends on the specific levels given to each.).

I'm not sure where the massive favouritism you are complaining about is coming from. Zihark's part 1 certainly justifies the massive difference in their positions, but that's really the only reason. It's a big reason, of course, since Z is good in part 1 and Ed is very much not good at times. But that's why there is such a difference between Z and Ed.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Even with the 3-12 crown I don't see any godmoding by Taur in 3-12 and 3-13. He's really no better than Nolan in 3-13, and Volug is probably still better. Also, Zihark and Volug in 3-12. Really, it's just 1-6-1 and 1-6-2. Except he's still kinda slow moving in 1-6-1, though he doesn't have to ever take less than full move to prevent dying. Still, he's really good in 1-6-1, but Zihark/Sothe/Volug are nothing to sneeze at there, and even Micky is useful on armors, whether it's the ones in the north east to get the hammer for someone or the ones in the west. In 1-6-2, he's part of the 2 turn clear, but that's not the only way to do the chapter. You can also have him and another unit blocking the bridge in the south while Volug and Jill carrying Sothe go up north and save Fiona then Sothe draws the boss from the east and counters on enemy phase and Jill and Volug can gang up on the poor thing while Sothe steals paragon for fun (I know it drops). Anyway, he's good, and his ORKOing and not dying are better than the other units and he's capable of cutting turns in 1-6-2 and in 1-6-1 while he's not the only guy routing it would probably take longer without him, he's not quite pulling a BK. Tier gap is justified, though you could try to move him above Heather I suppose.

Tauroneo is as much of a part of the easy button strategy as the BK is. During 1-6-1 and 1-6-2, no one else can one round everything and survive the waves of enemies, so his movement is your fastest movement. While you can do an alternate strategy for 1-6-2, this makes as much sense as not letting the BK lead the division Nailah isn't in in 1-E; that'd be ignoring the easy button. During 3-12 and 3-13, he's not godmoding, but he's still one of the best units on your team with almost no resources, barring a crown which no else really wants anyway. Even though he might be =< Nolan & Volug at this point, those two units are High and Top tier and required resources to be effective. After part 3, Tauroneo still has use on the 4-2 route even if he's not going to endgame where he can contribute and speed things up.

For the BK on the other hand, in 1-E, he's always going to be trailing Nailah, so his kills are restricted to cleaning up the 2-range enemies Nailah doesn't get. He's doing a great of it, but I don't think that can be called better than Taur's 1-6-1/2 win. In 3-6, he comes in at the end of turn 5, when Sothe/Volug/Miccy/Jill hit and run/Nolan/partners/anybody else you bothered to use have likely advanced farther than the BK can make up since he's going through 4 cost swamps.

[Narga_Rocks]

Kurth will be giving def and pissy attack for his 5 chapters, and no one really needs the def. Lethe on the other hand actually is mildly useful for her chapter 2 chapters. Yes, she sucks for part 3, but at least she has use for 2 chapters, unlike Kurth. I dunno actually when his def is useful. He may serve as a wall in 4e3, but you are trying to rush that kinda anyways, so using him as a wall doesn't work too well anyways.

Dunno. I like Lethe, but she's not super amazing in 2-E. 2-2 she's helpful for the 7 turn clear, and I'm not sure what Kurth does. On the other hand, Kurth probably turns a fair number of 2HKOs into 3HKOs and 3HKOs into 4HKOs in the dragon chapter, and that's a good thing since there are a fair number of dragons. Also if you want two blood tides in 4-E-4 it's probably useful to have Kurth hang around with Gareth to give Gareth more res.

I don't have too much detail on Kurth and Lethe, though, so I'll hope someone else justifies it better.

As for Calill, wouldn't Soren have a major level lead by the time Calill comes to the GM's? I mean, Soren doesn't suck like Kurth so much the can't get to level 15ish come 3-11. Calill may at best get to 10 at that time assuming she gets paragon for 3-9. She does make getting nullify easier, but I still don't think that is enough to say that she is better than soren for that 1 thing. She may become better when they are both 3rd tier, but thanks to them both being pretty undereleveled (callil for sure, and maybe Soren), and the fail of mages, they will both have a hard time doubling and Calill's 2/4 endgame dominance doesn't seem enough to beat soren

I should probably just find you a few posts about it, but the main idea involves:

Calill actually gets to fight laguz in 4-5, and will likely double tigers

Soren never really doubles much of anything unless you give him a speedwing (in tier 3) and paragon, whereas despite the level difference Calill's speed is just that much better that she'll still double things he doesn't.

Calill gets access to Rexflame so for 10 or so uses before 4-E-3 she can actually double things she normally couldn't even with her natural speed lead.

Calill can double without Nasir in 4-E-4 and doesn't require someone to bless a ranged tome just for Soren to be good. And even then, someone would have to trade out Soren's ranged tome after he uses it otherwise he can't counter and spirits might attack him (tinking, mostly, but they still went uncountered).

Calill is way better against auras, and one of your better units against the cover tile ones, possibly only losing to Tibarn with Parity, though she does of course need Nasir.

Basically, Soren is typically no more than part of the clean up crew in part 3 since he KOs things others leave behind. His meh-ness doesn't turn his availability lead into a win. Calill achieves more than meh-ness in the end. Also, Calill being able to meteor the boss of 2-E turning a 5HKO for Elincia into a 4HKO means Elincia doesn't need to stun to KO the boss. Of course, with 4 shots at it she usually does stun the boss as long as she is on neutral or better, but assurance is good when failing to KO results in possible death. That's probably more than anything Soren does in part 3. Oh, and while Haar can take a speedwing in 2-E and ORKO the boss, hammer will still have a pretty hefty miss chance and Haar will need to hit twice. I'm not sure if Calill turns hammer into a OHKO, but even if it doesn't there is still Elincia.

[_____]

Have I ever mentioned that I loathe arguing with you? ;-;

Being pithy does wonders.

I don't get this focus on a forge. Besides, I'd give one to Zihark too. In fact, Edward gets an iron forge in early part 1, Zihark needs a steel forge in part 3 just to compete with Ed's Caladbolg (once Ed's str growth finally starts working, so by 3-12), which was free. If you want to start assigning debt to forges, I'd have to say Zihark is more in debt there, since the steel forge costs more than the iron forge. Also, Ed doesn't need a draco to compete defensively in 3-12. Check their stats.

I was complaining about how Edward was getting the BEXP, Shield, and forge, while Zihark gets nothing. That's all.

Just do a comparison with Z at level 8 or 9 after 3-6 and Ed at 18/5 or something. Ed gets Nolan, since Nolan benefits more from +def than avo and Leo and Aran aren't likely to be in play at the same time as Edward (And A Ed give Nolan an extra point of def 2 chapters earlier than Aran gives it to Nolan, so that might help in 1-8 and 1-E anyway). Zihark can have Jill or Volug or even Nolan as well, since Ed and Zihark aren't likely to be in play at the same time. Then give neither the dracoshield, or make the comparison with each having it. I suppose Ed probably scarfed up some of the bexp in part 1 to go from 20 exp to 35 exp or something at times just to get closer to the next level, but we can easily do the same thing for Zihark or let Z have paragon. Considering we have other units that can make use of paragon too, I'd say there is no relative debt to bumping up Ed's exp a little since we do the same for Zihark. Compare their stats. HP are similar, def is similar (Z probably wins if he supports Jill, otherwise Ed might win since Z didn't support +def, depends on the levels you use in your comparison), avo is similar (Ed wins by a couple with Caladbolg and A Nolan vs. Z with B Jill, and Z with B Volug/Nolan probably wins by a bit. In 3-12 Z can possibly pull off an A, but an A Jill still loses to Ed and Caladbolg, I think, so it's just the A Volug/Nolan that would cause a 13 or so gap. Again, it depends on the specific levels given to each.).

Alright...?

I'm not sure where the massive favouritism you are complaining about is coming from.

That would be two quotes up, sir.

Zihark's part 1 certainly justifies the massive difference in their positions, but that's really the only reason. It's a big reason, of course, since Z is good in part 1 and Ed is very much not good at times. But that's why there is such a difference between Z and Ed.

I know. Jackal wasn't even contesting that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Have I ever mentioned that I loathe arguing with you? ;-;

Being pithy does wonders.

Me or him?

I was complaining about how Edward was getting the BEXP, Shield, and forge, while Zihark gets nothing. That's all.

Which were his second thoughts that he should probably not mention since he's usually not serious about them and since they aren't well justified just end up damaging his overall argument.

I'm not sure where the massive favouritism you are complaining about is coming from.

That would be two quotes up, sir.

Something of mine? Where?

Zihark's part 1 certainly justifies the massive difference in their positions, but that's really the only reason. It's a big reason, of course, since Z is good in part 1 and Ed is very much not good at times. But that's why there is such a difference between Z and Ed.

I know. Jackal wasn't even contesting that.

Just saying, it ain't Zihark's part 3 and 4 that are putting him where he is. Ed doesn't need extra stuff to compare decently in late part 3 and in part 4.

[grandjackal]

As a note, I should probably clarify. He has ways to compare to Vanilla Zihark (AKA, Zihark with no resources aside from those he gets naturally). Since Vanilla Zihark is already pretty damn good, that is where I was going. Obviously, Zihark with favoritism is better, but since when did mini-Zihark with a friend hurt anybody?

[_____]

Am I really that confusing? >_<

Me or him?

You, of course. You write so much. DX

Which were his second thoughts that he should probably not mention since he's usually not serious about them and since they aren't well justified just end up damaging his overall argument.

So, we agree?

Something of mine? Where?

No, what I said above that.

Just saying, it ain't Zihark's part 3 and 4 that are putting him where he is. Ed doesn't need extra stuff to compare decently in late part 3 and in part 4.

But we were talking about Part 1 only...

Edited October 9, 2009 by Ninji

[Narga_Rocks]

Which were his second thoughts that he should probably not mention since he's usually not serious about them and since they aren't well justified just end up damaging his overall argument.

So, we agree?

Draco for Ed and not looking at draco on Z for comparison purposes? Forge for Ed and nothing for Z? Lots of bexp after capping to boost other stats? I'd have to agree with you on disagreeing with that.

Something of mine? Where?

No, what I said above that.

About those other ideas? Yeah, I suppose.

Just saying, it ain't Zihark's part 3 and 4 that are putting him where he is. Ed doesn't need extra stuff to compare decently in late part 3 and in part 4.

But we were talking about Part 1 only...

I think France is talking about all of it. But yeah, Edward isn't coming close to anything Z is doing in part 1, it's starting 3-12 when he's actually close enough for Ed to be considered "comparable". In 3-6 he's no longer losing horribly, but in 1-E and earlier it's not pretty. Like, really not pretty.

[grandjackal]

*facedesk* So you people are telling me the reason Eddie can't go above Calill is because he doesn't compare to Zihark?...

Do you see why I hate this game now? It baffles me why I always come back to argue it. All I'm saying is with kill favoritism, Eddie can help speed up the process of part 1 prior to Zihark and friends showing up. Calill can't speed up her parts. The goddamn end. Do I need to fucking bold this to get the point across?

Edited October 9, 2009 by France

[_____]

Draco for Ed and not looking at draco on Z for comparison purposes? Forge for Ed and nothing for Z? Lots of bexp after capping to boost other stats? I'd have to agree with you on disagreeing with that.

I think France is talking about all of it. But yeah, Edward isn't coming close to anything Z is doing in part 1, it's starting 3-12 when he's actually close enough for Ed to be considered "comparable". In 3-6 he's no longer losing horribly, but in 1-E and earlier it's not pretty. Like, really not pretty.

Alright.

*facedesk* So you people are telling me the reason Eddie can't go above Calill is because he doesn't compare to Zihark?...

Do you see why I hate this game now? It baffles me why I always come back to argue it.

Who said that, exactly?

[charmander6000]

Wow I leave for two days and all this is posted...

Why are you comparing Edward with massive favouritism to Zihark when you really are trying to compare Edward to Calill? It means nothing. I can do the same with Meg/Nolan and get similar results.

[Narga_Rocks]

*facedesk* So you people are telling me the reason Eddie can't go above Calill is because he doesn't compare to Zihark?...

Do you see why I hate this game now? It baffles me why I always come back to argue it.

I believe I already told you why Calill > Edward. Dark Fire is superior to swords that could be lifted by poodles. I suppose your Jedi idea was decent, but you have to know that everyone has a little pyro inside them. Naturally people will lean towards that.

Anyway, do some Calill vs. Edward in part 4 comparisons. I'm not sure what else to say. Edward's stumbling block has always been part 1, so that's really what you need to overcome, unfortunately, but honestly there is no way to make Edward look good in part 1 from 1-5 on. So while I'm not sure how much good the part 4 comparison is going to do for you, it's somewhere to start. Also, numbers for 1-1. Focus on offence. Let other people bring up defence and figure out a way to mitigate the effect afterwards. Mitigation is superior to pretending it isn't there or is never a problem. So I'm not certain how good his offence is but focus on Nolan attacks something on enemy phase since he's the big tank, what does Ed do? Also, on the first turn there are 2 points to tank, and Leo/Micaiah aren't doing it. Later there are again two spots to block, etc. Personaly I'd try to glaze over 1-3. 1-2 you tried earlier but nobody responded. Maybe build on that but in more general terms. Also, less snippy about making Micaiah able to OHKO. Snippiness doesn't always work. This appears to be one of those times.

[grandjackal]

*facedesk* So you people are telling me the reason Eddie can't go above Calill is because he doesn't compare to Zihark?...

Do you see why I hate this game now? It baffles me why I always come back to argue it.

I believe I already told you why Calill > Edward. Dark Fire is superior to swords that could be lifted by poodles. I suppose your Jedi idea was decent, but you have to know that everyone has a little pyro inside them. Naturally people will lean towards that.

Anyway, do some Calill vs. Edward in part 4 comparisons. I'm not sure what else to say. Edward's stumbling block has always been part 1, so that's really what you need to overcome, unfortunately, but honestly there is no way to make Edward look good in part 1 from 1-5 on. So while I'm not sure how much good the part 4 comparison is going to do for you, it's somewhere to start. Also, numbers for 1-1. Focus on offence. Let other people bring up defence and figure out a way to mitigate the effect afterwards. Mitigation is superior to pretending it isn't there or is never a problem. So I'm not certain how good his offence is but focus on Nolan attacks something on enemy phase since he's the big tank, what does Ed do? Also, on the first turn there are 2 points to tank, and Leo/Micaiah aren't doing it. Later there are again two spots to block, etc. Personaly I'd try to glaze over 1-3. 1-2 you tried earlier but nobody responded. Maybe build on that but in more general terms. Also, less snippy about making Micaiah able to OHKO. Snippiness doesn't always work. This appears to be one of those times.

THANK you!

Now we're getting somewhere. Step by step.

I think we went over 1-E numerous times.

1-1. Eddie could be doubling for this chapter if we gave him the favoritism beforehand. I say if you improve faster, you deserve more. Only 3 enemies he can't double. The archer, who is to the left and sort of out of the way, the hand axer, and the boss. 20 HP, 14 Mt, 5 Def, 35 avoid, 11 crit, 33 hit. Neutral bio, he has 99-97 hit, making him the most accurate person on your team. Accuracy might mean little, but in a map as surgical as this, I'd love to not miss. Nolan has 104 hit with Steel, 99 with the handy. His hit is around 80-78. The fighters have 25 HP and 6 Def, meaning he does 8x2 damage. This is leaving them with 9 HP. Nolan has 23 Mt with the steel axe, meaning he does 17 damage. Awful damn similar. Either way, Leo would need Nolan, but do note Miccy. They have 1 Res, base Miccy has 10 mt with Light. Eddie can chip, and Miccy can kill, or vice versa. Soldiers have 8 Def, 22 HP. He does 6x2 damage. Nolan does 15. Not similar, but both 2RKO. The bosses, the hand axer has 92 hit. meaning he reduces him to 57 hit. Eddie is the only one who can bring numbers down this low, neutral bio brings it down another 10, meaning that luck is on your side with he 2RNs. This allows him to attack him with more impunity. 7 damage to the guy. If Eddie got a level and got speed, he doubles this guy, and 2RKOs. Otherwise, reduces him to 19 HP. Nolan with a hand does 14, reduces to 5. Then Leo kills, and miccy can choose to attack the boss or heal Nolan. She would do 7, reducing him to 18 HP. Nolan with steel would do 17 damage, which is enough to reduce him to 1 HP, 3 with a handie if he got lucky and got extra speed to double Nolan. Now why would I have ANYONE but Eddie kill the boss? He benefits the most, and also means I can have Miccy flee the next turn without having to trade it to Eddie. This possibly allows an extra escape for the BEXP, and frees us the trouble to trade him out the next chapter. Basically offensively comparable to Nolan. I notice this little weird effect. You know when peple say "he's borderline doubling, so he might not"? Well it's sort of the opposite here, he might double more. I say this, because Eddie's the only one who possibly can double at this point. Why shouldn't I try for it, basically? I get more benefit out of it than not. In fact, if he can get a speed level this chapter? He can double the hand axer and the boss, and he 2RKOs both. Considering he can crit, it's possible he can just ORKO the boss. Nolan can't, Leo can't, Miccy can't. Only Eddie. Speaking of which, there is an alcove a space down and left from the boss, so Miccy can sacrifice safely if there was a space behind Eddie taken, not that it would matter since if she can get there, she should be escaping.

Speaking of which, Eddie has 11 crit, enemy dodge is 6. He is pulling 5s. Basically anything he lands a crit on, he ORKOs. Not even Nolan can do that, because he just doesn't have the crit. No one but Eddie does, meaning Eddie is the only one who can possibly ORKO.

Durably? Well granted he's getting 2HKOd, but Miccy is getting OHKOd, Leo shouldn't get attacked. Levels do not fix either of these. If you wanna complain, we can give Miccy the draco, she's no longer OHKOd, and can even take a shot from the boss himself. If I give the shield to Eddie though, he can take another shot from the boss. Clearly, Miccy getting the shield is more important. But either way, that idea that Eddie gets in Wrath health is wrong. It never happens unless he takes a shot from the bronze archer (8 damage, leaves him with 12 HP, takes a shot from the boss and has 1 HP, can possibly Wrath the boss). He otherwise has 35 avoid to work with. It fluctuates from 74-57 around here for him. Since he has the highest avoid, this would mean that he gets the ability to say "I benefit from good bio where no one else does". Or at least not as well. Ridiculous I guess...But who else can dodge at times? Not reliably, but none have as good chances.

Either way, he's probably getting the boss kill here. He could easily get 2 levels here.

1-2 was discussed.

1-3, well depends on his level. Level 9 he doubles all but one soldier with a javy, myrms, and the boss. Thing is, a speed level and he can double the former two. But the thing I wish to focus on is what he's doing. To the right is a fighter with the door key. Eddie doubles him with 16 Mt with Iron, 9x2 damage to his 27 HP. This means next shot, he can kill without facing a counter. Eddie has 40 avoid at that level, the enemy has 99 hit. 59 hit. A bush drops it to 49, gives Eddie +1 Def, so 7 defense with 23 HP. 17 damage, reducing it to 6. That's below 1/3, and there are no other enemies in the area. That is if he hits. Others can go left. Archers have 22 Mt. They'd do 15 damage to him, and he has a wing edge. I take an herb, I can counter with Wrath. How do I do this safely? Well after that, he can go south for where the wall juts out and stay noth of it. Still in the hedge, and only 1 archer can reach him. He attacks, Eddie double Wrath counters with 16 mt to his 8 Def and 23-24 HP, the same scenario with the fighter. Important key here is that he is near the left side once again, and is at Wrath with a ranged weapon. I don't see Nolan doubling with Wrath crit. Miccy Sacrifice with 16 health brings him to 16 HP (she would be left with 1 HP), and now we draw out the boss. He can with Wrath, but I suppose the point is that it helps keep him useful while maintaining Wrath health. It helps him have greater offense than usual. Since afterwards it's rather chokepoint heavy, defending Eddie shouldn't be a problem. Also, that boss chip does 3 damage, plenty of leeway for Thani-bomb *glares*

1-4 I'm sure has been done to death, but let me put it this way. Realistically, Eddie can get to level 10, for 24 HP and 7 def, +1 from Nolan support along with more hit for Wing Edge and Hand Axe. Cats have 18 mt, doing 11 damage. Yup, 3RKO from cats. Cats are doubling Aran for 7x2 damage. So the durability lead is more than luck, Eddie can actually take some cats. Eddie with 15 speed and 10 Str isn't weighed down enough to be doubled by cats, doing 19mt, which would be 11 damage. 4RKO, but can crit. He can afford to if he's weakened a cat, because he can take 3 shots. Even if he crits the next, he won't OHKO, so he doesn't have to worry another shot.

Tigers he can double (well, some), but steel weighs him down and he doesn't double their 10 AS with his 13 AS. He's doing 9 damage, and they bring him down to 17 damage, reducing him to 7 HP, 8 with support. That's 1/3 HP, he Wraths. He won't OHKO, doing 27 damage to their 41-39 HP. 12-14 HP down. Miccy at level 5 could thani bomb that supportless. Weaker ends, Light can suffice if Sothe's around, but otherwise Thani is enough. Actually, iron is more effective anyways. 6x2 damage, when put to wrath health that's possibly 18x2 damage. This leaves them with 3-5 HP. So yeah, Wrath's not always bad on him

1-5 is pretty much a free-for-all. Level 12 Eddie though (laguz chapter) has 25 HP, 7+1 Def. 20 damage and lower 3RKOs him, which is 7 enemies on the map. At this point, the thought of Eddie not doubling consistently should vanish from your mind.

But that's 1-6 by them and we know the story from there...

Edited October 10, 2009 by France

[BigMeatyClawz]

This Eddie hype is boring stuff to read for a lurker like me so I'm gonna bring up something I think is odd with the list.

Middle (15)

Mist

Marcia

Heather

Tauroneo

Brom

Rhys

Caineghis/Giffca

Muarim

Skrimir

Tanith

Kieran

Geoffrey

Calill

Soren

Lower Middle (15)

Edward

Lucia

Volke

Stefan

Tormod

Rolf

Leonardo

Nealuchi

Nasir

Ilyana

Ena

Makalov

Sigrun

Danved

Vika

Why is their a 16 person tier gap between Manith and Sigrun? In 3-11 they'll both be ferrying units and occasionally attacking things they double. 24 speed doubles 15 more enemies out around 50. 2 of those are Dragoknight who she 2RKOs with a Wyrmslayer. One is a mage so she ORKOs it as opposed to Taniths 2RKO(unless she leveled and proc'd speeed). The other 12 are Paladins who she'll be ORKOing with the horseslayer. 3-E they both want to stray away from the main group and go after Paladin reinforcements to the Northwest and West. Tanith double the North reinforcements and Sigurn doubles both sides minus one Paladin on the West because she probably didn't promote yet.

4-P 26 speed double most of the Paladins and neither gets that until promotion so Sigrun has a good chance(2 levels in two chapters), and Tanith most likely needs a crown at level 19. So again a Sigrun win especially if the Horseslayer is still lying around. 4-3 and 4-E are probably going to Tanith because 26 speed is no where near doubling in those Chapters and Taniths superior growths and Str lead actually begin to matter. They have about the same durability throughout their careers and will likely be supporting each other for WaterxEarth haxs.

In the end Sigrun gets ~3 chapters she wins in(3-11, 3-E, 4-P) one she ties/loses (4-3) and a ~2 chapter loss in Endgame. I'd like to see them a little closer even if Tanith is still over Sigurn.

[grandjackal]

Nevermind we have no reason not to crown Sigrun immediately.

I've brought this up time after time, apparently the only reason is Tanith's speed growth, which...Doesn't ever really take into effect. If it were Transfer Tanith then we'll talk, but I agree with Tanith being too high.

[nflchamp]

Nevermind we have no reason not to crown Sigrun immediately.

I've brought this up time after time, apparently the only reason is Tanith's speed growth, which...Doesn't ever really take into effect. If it were Transfer Tanith then we'll talk, but I agree with Tanith being too high.

We could just crown Tanith immediately, too. Then we get a character that's better than Sigrun that actually has growths to get somewhere.

[tehnikhil]

Okay, well since no one really has much of a reason to justify why Kurth>Lethe (or are too busy with the Edward thing), I am going to bring up a few quick points. If someone bothers debating me, I may try to bring up some stronger points that require me researching some stats.

I am going to talk about why Lethe's part 2 performance>Kurth's endgame

Like Narga said, you are trying to get that 7 turn count in 2-2. You need all the people with good move you can get here. Lethe can take out light to medium units in one round, or at least severely damage them. Of course, she isn't doing Lucia/Mordy/Neal work here, but she is still doing a great job fighting. Neph is still being weighed down by teh steel greatlance, and Brom has low move. Leanne is a heron, so she is auto-hax. Heather is a theif and doesn't have good attack, but may be able to be the cleanup crew for Lethe's weakening. Although I am not 100% sure about this, I am pretty sure that Mordy comes with olivi grass for Lethe to smoke if she needs a few. She will probably only need 1 or 2 due to how short the chatper is though, whiel Mordy will take 1 or 2 also because he will be getting more action, and actually has a good transform gauge.

In 2-E, it is one of those many "use every man" maps that are in this game (especially part 2). Obviously, Lethe will be one of those people used. I am not saying that she should be gaining exp here, but what she can do is soften enemies up (since they will probably be strong enough to resist her) and let guys with potential like Neph, Brom, Marcia, and Calill get the kills. Mordy will be blocking off the left wall, and he may go ahead and smoke the olivi grass that you can find next to the barrels on the left side of the map a few squeares above the Nullify general (that approx area). Everyone else will be clearing out the inital force, and then probably go down and face the onslaught of generals. Of course, I am not sure abotu the Max bexp limit on this map, but you sure aren't trying to mow through enemies as much as get people with potential CEXP in this map (Haar flies down with a hammer and stomps Ludvek whenever he wants to), so people like Neal and Lethe are great utility because they can weaken enemies and let the 4 that I mentioned earlier get the kills (Haar/Elincia will be killing enemies without help).

As for Kurth...

Kurth isn't goin to do much. It is, in a way, measuring the throwaway units (Lethe, Taureno, Geoffery, etc) with each other by how useful they are in their chapters where they are actually good. Kurth would not be a throwaway unit if he came earlier, but since he is only getting 5 chapters of action at best, he doesn't serve much use. We all know how Geoffery and Taureno are awesome in their chatpers befroe you get rid of them due to having superior units, and that is why they are so much higher than Lethe and Kurth. I already said that Lethe can help with training weaker guys with potential by weaking foes and she helps clear that 7 turn rush. By endgame, you will have 3rd tiers with hax stats and mastery skills, so Kurth isn't seeing how he can be useful. 4e1, you are having you strongest (str/def) frontliners beating up on the generals, while kurth is doing piss damage to them.

4e2 is all about getting that wishblade, and doin some minor training. THe only thing is, all the 3rd tiers have reached their potential and therefore don't need outside help (Neph is great at 3rd tier for example, while at 2nd tier, she is lagging behind for a little). Ike will smash the BK into the next century with a hammer whenever you desire it.

4e3, yes, we all know that ena/kurth/heron make an awesome wall and all, but remember that you are trying to get a low turn count. Since this isn't a rout map, but instead a kill dheg map, you can rush this map quickly. You have 5 royals to work with (griffa included). You can do kill and dragons just fine.

4e4/4e5, Kurth and snacky are being dropped for Nasir and Gareth. Even if you keep Kurth in for 4-4, everyone is rushing up to try and catch up to Lehran, so Kurth can't keep up. It is pretty inevitable that your 5 royals (you shoudl be takin the highest stat guys who are reasonable to train into endgame) will tear him apart. 4e5, he may find some use here thanks to his night tide, but due to lack in levels, he is getting killed by Ashera. Gareth can stand on wardwood/drink pure waters to stay alive. His main use is that night tide. I am not 100% sure on this, but I heard that a capped lion can take out one of ashy's auras in 1 round if they have 1 or 2 blood tides. That is where Gareth is being useful. No one is desperate for defense right here assuming you are bringing in some of the optimal people.

So... yeah... that is why I think Lethe>Kurth

Edit: Oh, and that note, since we all love blood tide for 2 chaters more than night tide for 5, I would also say that Gareth>Kurth

Edited October 11, 2009 by tehnikhil

[Shadow Mir]

Oh, and that note, since we all love blood tide for 2 chaters more than night tide for 5, I would also say that Gareth>Kurth

I'd say that Gareth's only really helping for one map.

[tehnikhil]

That means Kurth only is for 4. Also, that 1 map>Kurth's defense boost for 4 maps. Not only that, but if you decide to have the dragons to attack the auras (maybe finishing blow), Gareth will do more damage than Kurth will.

[Shadow Mir]

That means Kurth only is for 4. Also, that 1 map>Kurth's defense boost for 4 maps. Not only that, but if you decide to have the dragons to attack the auras (maybe finishing blow), Gareth will do more damage than Kurth will.

I fail to see why you're inflating the importance of 4-E-5. And I said that Gareth was only really helping for one map since he's not really doing anything notable in 4-E-4. At least Kurth's helping block off dangerous dragons in 4-E-3. And Gareth does have durability issues, as you yourself admitted.

[grandjackal]

That, and it's not like Night Tide is useless. I dunno about you, but +5 Def and Res is always welcome to me.

Anyways so it doesn't get side tracked, can it be agreed that Eddie to mid above Soren isn't out of the question, even if not necessarily Calill?