OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Well I did think up a way to put Neph's Wrath to good use, problem is how it's done. Do tell me if perhaps I'm off my rocker, as I'm not 100% solid on this, but do tell me what ya think.

Basically it involves Oscar. Both get negligeable hit for it (never hurt anyone I guess), but the important part is the avoid, due to wind being an avoid booster. A C is 12 avoid off the bat. Level 7, that's 72. A B, that's 24. Level 10, that's 89-90 avoid. AKA, close to Mia with Ike's numbers. It's considered Oscar gets crowned at some point anyways, Crowned as soon as he hits the speed cap is 72+24 avoid, 96. 23 Str I'm gonna guess isn't good, but 26 speed at that time is perfectly fine. In fact, it's good for a good while. You might be wondering if I'm suggesting Adept for Oscar, since we are likely to have 2. Nuh-uh, Neph will be putting it to better use. However...

With this sort of avoid on supports, one can move out of range and take hits to lower their HP. They then huddle up, one with Adept and the other with Wrath. So my question is, who uses Wrath better? I'd say Neph I guess, due to class crit bonus.

Here's my question really. How much is it worth to keep Oscar held back? Going with Titania he still has meh offense, and even a support with her is rather meh in avoid (sort of like Soren with Ike). It doesn't help his offense to support her, not by any means. That, and she isn't dependent on him for supports (aside from flyaway missions, why would you have Haar stray far away? He gives more acc, both would love it for their axes, he'd LOVE to be tankeier. There's Ranulf as well). However, with Neph he and she get almost Mia with Ike numbers avoid, and are among your second best adept users on the team, along with the fact that they can now put Wrath to good use if used correctly. I'd say Oscar held back to basically help himself and another become killfaces is better than him being a dingleberry at Titania's side.

current

Upper Middle (12)

Elincia

Tibarn

Naesala

Micaiah

Nephenee

Laura

Jill

Oscar

Mordecai

Black Knight

Ranulf

Aran

Boyd

Narga's (and kinda Kirsche's, too, considering I think my only change from what he said 3 or 4 pages ago is stating I haven't a clue what to do with Jill) proposed

Upper Mid

Elincia

Micaiah

Nephenee

Laura

?Jill?

Black Knight

Tibarn

Naesala

?Jill?

Oscar

Mordecai

Ranulf

Aran

Boyd

Assuming none of my suggestions are applied, do you have issues with Nephenee's spot below Micaiah and above Laura? Or Oscar's spot above Mordy and below Jill?

Or if they are applied, with Neph > Laura/BK/Tibs/Naesala > Oscar?

Also, @all, I really want help with Jill. I suppose it only matters if Red Fox of Fire is willing to implement the changes, because Neph > Laura > Jill > Oscar doesn't really need any changes.

Also, does anybody actually disagree with Laura > BK > Tibarn > Naesala > Oscar? (with Jill somewhere between Laura and Oscar)

@Narga-No way would I say Neph can beat Mia's eventual durability, but she does have ways to win out early in the least. Just wanted to clear that up.

I'm just saying that any wins she may have in 3-2 are minor and end soon enough. Even without Mia x Ike (provided, of course, no Neph x Ike in the comparison in which Mia doesn't get Ike)

Edited September 30, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I could see Miccy and Neph above Eli actually.

I could see Jill above Tibarn really. Not sure about the BK.

And right, perhaps I should add that Neph has better range?

[Original Alear]

Yeah, he's definitely great in 2-E, I never denied that. And in 3-4, I believe the two Sages on either side of the west ballistae are both Thunder, though one could be Fire. And why would Haar still have Cancel? He's one of the worst members of the team to use it. Losing no capacity from it means nothing when so many units can use it better/need it more.

The only characters I have survival issues with on the GM are characters who I'm not attacking first with (mist, rhys) unless they have a high hit chance and will kill w/out a counterattack. It's useless for helping them survive a hit, since it only activates on attacks (i.e. cancel won't help you survive the first hit unless you have vantage).

I guess I could see putting it on Boyd, since he attacks a lot and doesn't have good defense and thus has a lot to gain from canceling an enemy counterattack during player phase, but I've never actually had him at risk of death so I don't see the point.

[Ether]

I could see Miccy and Neph above Eli actually.

I could see Jill above Tibarn really. Not sure about the BK.

And right, perhaps I should add that Neph has better range?

I'm not sure about Neph yet,but I agree that Micky should go above elincia.

[RPGslave]

I would definitely like to suggest Jill to move down and Meg to (possibly) move up.

First of all, base stats:

Meg (base level 3): 21 HP, 10 Strength, 7 Skill, 8 Speed, 8 Luck, 10 Defense, 5 Resistance.

So how does she compare?

Base Aran has 3 HP, 5 Skill, 2 Speed, and 1 Defense on her. Aran is considered useful because he is has out-of-the-box tank utility. Meg's HP and defense are comparable to his, it's the speed that hurts her. But at the same time, she starts at level 3 and has a 65% speed growth, so she will quickly tie Aran's speed and beat it. It will hurt her against the laguz, but I don't think any tigers double her, and the cats won't be doing much damage. Her defense growth isn't as high, but her HP growth is higher than his and so is her resistance. If I remember correctly, Meg is a water affinity, so her supports help her weak points and water affinities are high in demand.

My point: If Aran can be used immediately due to his defense and be useful because of it, so can Meg because her defense isn't much worse.

Now lets compare her to Jill, shall we?

Base Jill has 3 HP, 1 Strength, 5 Skill, 7 Speed, 6 Luck, 3 Defense, and 6 Resistance over her.

However Meg is only level three and could probably have leveled enough to lessen some of these leads. Jill also won't be able to double due to being weighed down by axes, and the skill and luck lead still doesn't give her too reliable of hit rates. However I definitely want to point out the HP and defense difference; there barely is any! Jill has comparable defenses to a level three unit! Sure she has higher resistance, but Jill still has to avoid the thunder mages in 1-6:1. Due to the general accuracy of the chapter 1 enemies, her speed and luck leads won't help her dodge much either. And look at that strength! Base Aran (who is exactly HALF of base Jill's level) matches her strength! That's pathetic! How much does flying/canto do for a front-line unit who has iffy offense/defense? I know the seraph robe will come up, so I'll just say that Aran can make good (if not better) use of it as well.

My point: Jill has comparable physical defenses to base Meg, has the same strength as base level Aran (who is half her level), has some accuracy issues, and has a speed lead that won't help her double due to AS loss.

So if Meg has comparable defenses to these two units who are considered good/decent DB units, is Meg's part one really that bad? If her HP/defense compare so closely to Aran's, can she not be used as an alternative tank? I believe she can be, even if only for a few chapters. Would this not put her above Astrid, who is the most fragile unit in Geoffrey's knights who also can't deal very much damage?

I suppose Aran's place could change depending upon this, but that wasn't my primary intent.

Feel free to rip this to shreds (pardon all spelling/grammatical errors, I'm sleepy). XD

Edited October 3, 2009 by RPGslave

[Anouleth]

I would definitely like to suggest Jill to move down and Meg to (possibly) move up.

First of all, base stats:

Meg (base level 3): 21 HP, 10 Strength, 7 Skill, 8 Speed, 8 Luck, 10 Defense, 5 Resistance.

So how does she compare?

Base Aran has 3 HP, 5 Skill, 2 Speed, and 1 Defense on her. Aran is considered useful because he is has out-of-the-box tank utility. Meg's HP and defense are comparable to his, it's the speed that hurts her. But at the same time, she starts at level 3 and has a 65% speed growth, so she will quickly tie Aran's speed and beat it. It will hurt her against the laguz, but I don't think any tigers double her, and the cats won't be doing much damage. Her defense growth isn't as high, but her HP growth is higher than his and so is her resistance. If I remember correctly, Meg is a water affinity, so her supports help her weak points and water affinities are high in demand.

For a start, Meg is a Heaven affinity, so she only provides +hit. This is only really useful for Meg if she wants to use Wind Edges, which she doesn't because she'll have substandard strength by the time she gets a support going. In addition, nobody in the DB wants Heaven - the only person I can think of with hit issues is Aran, and by the time they get a support formed, Aran's Skill will have caught up.

So, base Aran vs. base Meg. Well, Meg's base 8 AS is awful - she gets one-rounded by some of the tigers in 1-4 in HM (since some of them have 12AS), everything else 2-rounds her, and her lack of decent 2-range means she will either be stuck on Wind Edges (deals 6 damage vs tigers, 8 damage vs cats, 60% hit rate), or she gets counterattacked and possibly killed. Aran is also doing badly, but nothing is one-rounding him, and if he switches to a Javelin, he deals better damage with better accuracy. He'll also probably level-up quite early in this chapter since he gained some exp in 1-3, and probably gain STR/SKL/DEF, increasing his lead.

See, Aran's growths are simply better distributed than Meg's. She has marginally higher HP, higher speed, higher luck, and higher resistance. Well, Aran's ridiculous defense makes up for his slightly worse HP, Meg's never fast enough to double anything due to a bad base and a bad cap, her luck is pretty useless since she's never fast enough to dodge-tank, and mages really aren't that scary. Compared to Aran's monstrous leads in Defense and Strength, her growths are awful, so she's never going to catch-up to him.

My point: If Aran can be used immediately due to his defense and be useful because of it, so can Meg because her defense isn't much worse.

It's that 8 base speed that makes her worse.

Now lets compare her to Jill, shall we?

Base Jill has 3 HP, 1 Strength, 5 Skill, 7 Speed, 6 Luck, 3 Defense, and 6 Resistance over her.

However Meg is only level three and could probably have leveled enough to lessen some of these leads. Jill also won't be able to double due to being weighed down by axes, and the skill and luck lead still doesn't give her too reliable of hit rates. However I definitely want to point out the HP and defense difference; there barely is any! Jill has comparable defenses to a level three unit! Sure she has higher resistance, but Jill still has to avoid the thunder mages in 1-6:1. Due to the general accuracy of the chapter 1 enemies, her speed and luck leads won't help her dodge much either. And look at that strength! Base Aran (who is exactly HALF of base Jill's level) matches her strength! That's pathetic! How much does flying/canto do for a front-line unit who has iffy offense/defense? I know the seraph robe will come up, so I'll just say that Aran can make good (if not better) use of it as well.

You say that Jill has comparable defense to a level 3 unit... but she has 3HP, 7SPD and 3DEF lead?

For a start, Jill is never going to be doubled if she doesn't want to. Meg needs to level up quickly and gain speed just to avoid being doubled by half the stuff in 1-5. Jill is also much more mobile - she can fly up and engage the Pegasus Knights in 1-6-1 and ferry Tauroneo to the boss in 1-6-2. Her offense is better as well, since she's got Axes. She will also end up better since she has better growths.

My point: Jill has comparable physical defenses to base Meg, has the same strength as base level Aran (who is half her level), has some accuracy issues, and has a speed lead that won't help her double due to AS loss.

Jill has far better physical defense than Meg, since she doesn't get doubled. I don't get why you think she has accuracy issues - an Iron Axe only loses out to a Iron Sword by 10 hit, and Jill has higher skill anyway. In addition, she can also be given the Energy Drop since she's the second best canditate for it after Nolan.

So if Meg has comparable defenses to these two units who are considered good/decent DB units, is Meg's part one really that bad? If her HP/defense compare so closely to Aran's, can she not be used as an alternative tank? I believe she can be, even if only for a few chapters. Would this not put her above Astrid, who is the most fragile unit in Geoffrey's knights who also can't deal very much damage?

Astrid can run around and take potshots in 2-3, even if she's fragile. Meg is also fragile, but her potshots suck due to Wind Edges being fail. And lol at Meg tanking. Aran can be used as a tank only because of his growths - his base stats are simply not good enough to tank with.

I suppose Aran's place could change depending upon this, but that wasn't my primary intent.

Feel free to rip this to shreds (pardon all spelling/grammatical errors, I'm sleepy). XD

Why should it? You're entire argument was 'Meg is comparable to Aran and Jill, therefore Meg up'. Since you have not established that Meg is comparable to Aran or Jill, everyone stays where they are.

[RPGslave]

I figured the Meg up wouldn't fly, but I was mostly looking for Jill to move down. I should probably only focus on the things I think are possible. >_>

I was mostly trying to show that Jill's offense/defense suck at base and compare her to Aran by using Meg as a medium. It didn't work. >_>

...And I just woke up, so I'm gonna stop before I mess up again. XD

As for your post, I'll concede the points to you. I don't know why I decided to bring Meg into my "bring Jill down!" agenda when a direct Aran comparison would have been better (and easier).

[Narga_Rocks]

I figured the Meg up wouldn't fly, but I was mostly looking for Jill to move down. I should probably only focus on the things I think are possible. >_>

I was mostly trying to show that Jill's offense/defense suck at base and compare her to Aran by using Meg as a medium. It didn't work. >_>

...And I just woke up, so I'm gonna stop before I mess up again. XD

As for your post, I'll concede the points to you. I don't know why I decided to bring Meg into my "bring Jill down!" agenda when a direct Aran comparison would have been better (and easier).

I still can't see Oscar > Jill. I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just anti Oscar or something. But she's good in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2, okay in 1-7 and 1-E, good in 3-6 and 3-13, okay in 3-12, underleveled in 4-P/1/2, promotion admittedly only gets 27 speed but by 4-E-1 she should be better than Oscar again. So she's just okay in 1-7 and 1-E and 3-12, inferior in 4-P and 4-3 (I'm thinking going with Micaiah is best for her) to what Oscar does in 4-1 (and I suppose the things in the southeast of 4-4 have to die anyway, as well as the 3 waves of reinforcements before turn 10 in the east just under the ledge). But since Oscar isn't likely doubling much either, they are probably not that different, he's just got earth for avo. Then once she gets her speed up she's better in 4-E, and has access to forged axes whereas he just has forged javelins and bows for 2 range. And she has access to hammers and pretty good luck and decent skill so she should hit most of the time. Neither have access to wyrmslayers for dragons, but she still has axes, though he could have a forged Silver Bow if you get him from C to A. Then she's doubling spirits and he's only doubling thunder, and she's way better on auras.

Also, she has good timing to get resources like a robe at a lower cost than he can, though he might be able to get a draco easier than she could. As for the drops, he probably has an easier time getting the 2-E drop than she does getting the 1-2 drop. Not sure if either of them are good enough candidates to be compared with something, though. Still, she's a great candidate for a robe and I don't think the things he has a chance at help him enough. A robe for him only results in 3 higher hp in part 4, but I suppose it means 3 things capped at level 17 and 2 at level 16 and while he's not guaranteed to get str/lck/def on each of his 3 level ups from 17 to 20, it's a pretty good chance of getting 3 in either str or def and 2 in the other, which could possibly result in capping tier 2 str and ending tier 2 with 20 or 21 def. Still, he can bexp stuff even without the robe so it's probably only +3hp, +1 str, +1/2 def that he gets out of the robe outside of part 3, and he's only really benefitting a lot from the robe in part 3 until he hits an A level support with someone. So I'm going to suggest that the item for which he's got the best chance of getting is an energy drop, except even that is questionable since he has a decent chance of capping tier 2 str with just bexp anyway, whereas the robe on Jill is not wasted until 20/20/~14 anyway.

Also, she's a good candidate for paragon with her growths/caps and being underleveled, whereas Oscar isn't going to get much out of paragon in part 4. 35% str growth and 30% def growth and a higher level aren't doing him any favours in the comparison with her 45% str growth and 35% def growth and probably 3 levels for every 2 of his, or something like that.

[Interceptor]

In my opinion, the 1-2 Energy Drop is Volug's to give up. He's one of the few units that actually gets an effective durability increase from the Drop, considering that it allows him to OHKO Fire Mages instead of just ORKO'ing them. It also serves to make him a rather decent lategame unit, for a laguz anyway. His chances of levelling up in Part 3 are good even in terms of low-turn count clears.

[Narga_Rocks]

In my opinion, the 1-2 Energy Drop is Volug's to give up. He's one of the few units that actually gets an effective durability increase from the Drop, considering that it allows him to OHKO Fire Mages instead of just ORKO'ing them. It also serves to make him a rather decent lategame unit, for a laguz anyway. His chances of levelling up in Part 3 are good even in terms of low-turn count clears.

Yeah, Jill faces steeper competition for the 1-2 drop than Oscar does for the 2-E drop, though I'm sure Oscar's competition for that is pretty fierce anyway.

I do like Volug getting 3 mt out of it and being able to OHKO fire mages in 1-5, considering I have him attack a fire mage and kill it in 1-5 on his way towards Jill. Based on his averages, SS strike at level, say, 23 for 4-E (probably too low, but it's a whole number on average) means 49 mt and 32 speed. Actually, if he can pull that off in 4-3/4/5 that's great since 49 mt and 32 AS means ORKOing all the warriors and halbs except, like, 2. Also, ORKOs the sniper reinforcements in the east, though misses the warrior by 3hp. (Mist kill, yay!)

Back to part 1, 28 mt means 1HKOing mages until 1-6-2. Too bad 3 out of 4 fire mages have 1 hp left there. Also, 1 out of 5 mages die in one hit in 1-7, and it's an elfire mage.

Also, he goes from 3HKO to 2HKO on lots. Like, fighters and soldiers in 1-7. Also, 4HKO to 3HKO on armors (5HKO to 3HKO on one).

In 1-8, 4/5 HKO to 3/4 HKO on bandits (some aren't doubled, though). 4HKO to 3HKO on dracos. 3HKO to 2HKO (ORKO) on soldiers. OHKO on two wind mages (please tell me at least one is in the west, please).

In 1-E, ORKOs the 14 AS warrior. S strike means 33 mt instead of 30 mt, and 33 mt OHKOs 4 out of 6 mages. Also, even a +mt support only means 32 mt and that doesn't OHKO those things, but would allow energy drop!Volug to OHKO all the mages. Even a C support does that.

Not sure if that qualifies him as doritos, though, since I haven't looked much at the others.

[-Cynthia-]

I do think Jill's overall performance might be slightly overrated, I don't really see what would put her over Tibarn and Aran under IMO. Here's how I would restructure Upper Mid:

Micaiah

Laura

BK

Elincia

Tibarn

Naesala

Jill

Oscar

Nephenee

Mordecai

Ranulf

Aran

Boyd

Edited October 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Narga_Rocks]

I do think Jill's overall performance might be slightly overrated, I don't really see what would put her over Tibarn and Aran under IMO. Here's how I would restructure Upper Mid:

Micaiah

Laura

BK

Elincia

Tibarn

Naesala

Jill

Oscar

Nephenee

Mordecai

Ranulf

Aran

Boyd

That's a fairly large number of changes.

Micky/Laura > Elincia. The Micky part has been mentioned, though.

BK > Elincia.

Laura, Jill, Oscar > Nephenee.

I suppose I could see Micky > Elincia and Laura > Nephenee, but not the rest. I think I agree with royals remain > Jill, though.

[grandjackal]

Oi, quick question.

Y'all said 3 levels of BEXP is a fair bump, correct? That is if it can be afforded.

If so, I think Soren's got hope yet. Oh well, if not it isn't like the world ended. Besides, the thing I'm thinking of is probably too damn expensive anyways.

Hell, BEXP bump has been all the rage in FE9. I suppose if it can work there, it can work here too.

Edited October 4, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

Oi, quick question.

Y'all said 3 levels of BEXP is a fair bump, correct? That is if it can be afforded.

If so, I think Soren's got hope yet. Oh well, if not it isn't like the world ended. Besides, teh thing I'm thinking of is probably too damn expensive anyways.

Where? Maybe someone (even me) did, but we may have been speaking of a specific situation, like Neph in 2-E where the only other candidates are Haar and Brom, really, except they don't go from not doubling to doubling in 2-E (or 3-3). And even with ~40 enemies left alive in 2-3 it's still taking most of the bexp to do it. Any other time I'm not sure how justified it is to do more than just slowplaying. Well, I suppose you could dump the 1500 from 2-E onto one character in 3-9, but that's not even a level. Not even half a level for anyone over 20/10. Ulki is probably the next best example of a unit taking a lot of bexp and maybe being able to justify it. He's still taking ~four ninths of our bexp to get 2 levels, but he gets tear (61.56% or 64% in two hits) out of that. I'm not quite sure what Soren can say.

Anyway, to give Soren 3 levels at any one time in HM would basically prevent the slowplaying of anyone else under 90 exp or prevent a 2 or 3 level dump on any other character (it prevents one of the other, not both, so if you want to go without the option of dumping on another character then above 80 could still be done for all, maybe even 75). That's a tall mountain for Soren's gains to climb over in order to justify it. I'm not saying it's impossible for all units, considering I think Ulki is capable of climbing that mountain, but I'm not seeing how it would be possible for Soren.

Hell, BEXP bump has been all the rage in FE9. I suppose if it can work there, it can work here too.

FE9 bexp in HM is akin to FE10 bexp in NM. They aren't similar at all in this game's HM. Giving a bexp dump to give a unit 3 levels in that game is almost dirt cheap (depending on the units' starting level and what chapter it is, of course). Giving a unit 3 levels in this game's HM is like giving a unit 8 levels or something in that game.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Well it really depends. Here's the thing.

20/10 Soren takes BEXP. His magic, Skill and some other stat (I think it's resistance) should be max. This leaves his 3 highest stat growths. These would be HP, Speed and Luck. Str and Def are a 10% margin. It's the speed really.

See, if he gets 3 levels of BEXP, he has the speed to double after a crown (this is where I said it would get expensive as you can tell). 3 HP and Luck also don't hurt by any means.Even luckier though is if he proc'd speed, a 75% occurance. You could still give him 3 BEXP levels to max speed if you wish, but you could just give him 2, a lot easier to swallow. After a crowning, he has 24 speed. This is enough to double quite a bit throughout part 3, and unlike other crowners, he can maintain his own level, thanks to staffs giving static exp. I don't think I need to spell it out, but I might as well.

35 HP, 14 Str, 29 Mag, 25 Skill 24 Speed (25 if luck was on your side and willing to shell out a bit more), 15 Luck, 14 Def, 25 Res. 65 Hit, 63 avoid, 12 crit.

Why Soren now? Well, no one can just be bumped and become double awesome aside from Ulki as stated. Rolf can't as it's too risky and could proc into skill. Mia is good no matter how you slice it, she doesn't give a shit. Everyone else would be even more expensive except for Boyd and Mist. Boyd would just proc the stats not speed, of which is what he desperately wants, and Mist...Won't ever amount to anything anytime soon anyways, as she's basically a healer that can take a shot.

It might cut into the slowplay BEXP, but I could see it far cheaper in BEXP as compared to Ulki, though clearly a Satori is cheaper than a Crown.

I guess it really depends on his supporter at this point. If it's Ike, he has avoid that's not quite Mia epic but still quite wonderful (due to Darknes giving avoid and fire not, it helps make up for his loss in speed and luck gained avoid), and an offense boost regardless thanks to Dark affinity, which apparently Ike would like. Another option is Oscar, though the clear problem there is move.

On top of this, he has gained staff utility.

If it's too expensive though, let me know. Guess it also really depens on when he hits level 10, or when he hits his caps really.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well it really depends. Here's the thing.

20/10 Soren takes BEXP. His magic, Skill and some other stat (I think it's resistance) should be max. This leaves his 3 highest stat growths. These would be HP, Speed and Luck. Str and Def are a 10% margin. It's the speed really.

See, if he gets 3 levels of BEXP, he has the speed to double after a crown (this is where I said it would get expensive as you can tell). 3 HP and Luck also don't hurt by any means.Even luckier though is if he proc'd speed, a 75% occurance. You could still give him 3 BEXP levels to max speed if you wish, but you could just give him 2, a lot easier to swallow. After a crowning, he has 24 speed. This is enough to double quite a bit throughout part 3, and unlike other crowners, he can maintain his own level, thanks to staffs giving static exp. I don't think I need to spell it out, but I might as well.

35 HP, 14 Str, 29 Mag, 25 Skill 24 Speed (25 if luck was on your side and willing to shell out a bit more), 15 Luck, 14 Def, 25 Res. 65 Hit, 63 avoid, 12 crit.

Why Soren now? Well, no one can just be bumped and become double awesome aside from Ulki as stated. Rolf can't as it's too risky and could proc into skill. Mia is good no matter how you slice it, she doesn't give a shit. Everyone else would be even more expensive except for Boyd and Mist. Boyd would just proc the stats not speed, of which is what he desperately wants, and Mist...Won't ever amount to anything anytime soon anyways, as she's basically a healer that can take a shot.

It might cut into the slowplay BEXP, but I could see it far cheaper in BEXP as compared to Ulki, though clearly a Satori is cheaper than a Crown.

I guess it really depends on his supporter at this point. If it's Ike, he has avoid that's not quite Mia epic but still quite wonderful (due to Darknes giving avoid and fire not, it helps make up for his loss in speed and luck gained avoid), and an offense boost regardless thanks to Dark affinity, which apparently Ike would like. Another option is Oscar, though the clear problem there is move.

On top of this, he has gained staff utility.

If it's too expensive though, let me know. Guess it also really depens on when he hits level 10, or when he hits his caps really.

He needs 25 speed. It's just reality. 25 speed is because 24 stops doubling halbs/warriors in 3-5 and 3-8. Actually, starting in 3-10, for some enemies he needs 26 so 3 levels even if he starts at 25. Gats just needs 1 or 2, usually. Also, the more turns spent healing are more turns we aren't getting much benefit from the crown, considering we already had two healers, but we made a guy (Soren in this case) that can ORKO stuff, and we didn't have very many of them before.

http://www.feplanet.net/index.php?fep=games%2F10%2Fcharacters%2Faverages&id=45&key=5

So 20/10 has 19.75 speed. It's actually only a 57% chance of having 20 speed, and 20/11 has 20.1 and a 68% chance, which is usually where we start assuming. Well, I think a little over 60% is where we start assuming.

Still, let's give him 20 speed.

Speed is tied for second but only .1 over str/def. .35 is 1.4x .25. So I'm not convinced that his chance of getting speed goes beyond 75% with bexp. So lets say 4 levels to get 23 speed. Possibly 5 levels if he only has 19 speed at 20/10.

Anyway, 20/14/1 Soren with 25 speed. After taking 4 levels and a crown. Also, 3000 + 3100 + 3200 + 3300 = 12600 bexp. That's quite a chunk.

You never said when this is happening, by the way. That much in 3-4, for example, is a little nuts.

Also, 25 speed and 15 luck means 50 + 15 + 15 = 70 avo base, or 100 with A Ike (come 3-7). He'll need 3 levels before getting a good chance at increasing it.

level 10 Mia has 30 speed (72%) and 19 luck (73%) so 60 + 19 + 15 + 15 = 109 with B Ike, and 117 with A Ike, though probably 118 or 119 thanks to more luck by 3-7. Also, in 3-4 it'll only be 90 avo vs. 109 avo.

That's pretty significant when you consider at level 10 she's already ~the same concrete durability as 20/14/1 Soren, and with her growths and lower level it'll just get worse for him.Also, that eventual 18 or so avo lead makes a huge difference. Take 40 listed vs. 22 listed. 32.4% true vs. 9.9% true. Or 30 listed vs. 12 listed. 18.3% true vs. 3% true.

The first example makes him >3x as likely to get hit, the second he's >6x as likely. Frankly, I don't think I'd be willing to stick him in the paths of enemies.

Which is the entire point of crowning someone to make a ORKO machine. Also, we only have 10350 in 3-4. Even if you drop the 3300 because we got lucky twice and pulled off 23 speed before the crown, that's still 9300 bexp, leaving us with 1050. Also, getting 23 laguz to live in 3-P isn't easy. So we could have 750 or so. That is a very large chunk of change, and still doesn't actually guarantee 25 speed after promotion. Before promotion, it's probably about even money whether we'd get 21 or 23, and 22 is probably more likely than either. So he needs to wait for us to get another 2250 so that he can take it all to get 23 speed before promotion and 25 after (back to xx/14/1). So he could take most of our 3-4 bexp too in order to pull off 25 speed, and the crown goes unused in 3-4, which given Gatrie's move I suppose isn't so bad.

Still, it mostly comes down to the vast amounts of bexp that Soren is taking and the crown. The key point behind the issue with the crown is lack of enemy phase use of our new ORKOer and the times he's healing to try to build levels to pull off 26 speed in time.

[Florete]

Moved Black Knight and Micaiah up. Wasn't quite sure what to do elsewhere (Laura specifically), so I'll leave that until I get up.

Also, I'd like to put the transfer versions of certain characters on the list (the ones it actually affects, of course). Discuss that as well while I sleep.

Would you mind making breakfast also?

[grandjackal]

I'll be honest in that I have generally no clue when this will happen. My best guess I would venture would be around 3-5, 3-7 a rough estimate? That's basically 6-7 chapters, and he's one of the lower leveled mercs. I don't see why or how he couldn't gain 5 levels at least in that time.

I can basically agree with the top half of your post, but I do wanna say one thing. He is assumed to get a speed on the next level, which would vastly reduce the amount of BEXP he'd need. If you go the cheap-ass route, he'd only need 2. Otherwise the 3 as said. Even that said, with all that time, he could be level 11 and like halfway to the next level.

However, there IS one thing I have a beef with you about in that post, and that's durability. One thing I'm learning about mages is how versatile they are, and Soren happens to have things going for him. First off, offense.

First thing you seem to forget is that Mia's meatier offense is in melee. She has range, but she has to deal with proccing Adept. Soren? Well even with basic thunder, he has 32 mt, +1 ATK from support is 33, +2 if it's an A with Ike it's 34. Fire would be 34-36.

Chapter 3-7

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Hand Axe)

HP 42, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 125, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Crossbow)

HP 41, Atk 28, AS 20, Hit 155, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

1x Warrior lvl 11 (Crossbow)

HP 42, Atk 28, AS 21, Hit 156, Avo 58, DEF 16, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 37, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 123, Avo 53, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Short Spear)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 109, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

2x Halberdier lvl 10 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 139, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 134, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14

1x Halberdier lvl 11 (Killer Lance)

HP 38, Atk 29, AS 20, Hit 135, Avo 55, DEF 20, RES 14, Crit 45, Ddg 15

3x Swordmaster lvl 10 (Steel Blade)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 126, Avo 63, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Wyrmslayer)

HP 34, Atk 29, AS 24, Hit 133, Avo 63, DEF 17, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Storm Sword)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 114, Avo 64, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 16

2x Axe General lvl 11 (Short Axe)

HP 39, Atk 35, AS 17, Hit 116, Avo 50, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Lance General lvl 11 (Short Spear)

HP 40, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 111, Avo 52, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Sniper lvl 9 (Steel Bow)

HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 138, Avo 54, DEF 17, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 14

1x Sniper lvl 11 (Steel Longbow)

HP 38, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 122, Avo 56, DEF 18, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 16

4x Wind Sage lvl 10 (Elwind, one has Thunder secondary)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 8, Ddg 12

1x wind Sage lvl 11 (Elwind)

HP 33, Atk 28, AS 18, Hit 136, Avo 48, DEF 12, RES 18, Crit 8, Ddg 12

2x Thunder Sage lvl 11 (Elthunder)

HP 24, Atk 26, AS 18, Hit 124, Avo 49, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 19, Ddg 13

1x Thunder Sage lvl 10 (Elthunder)

HP 33, Atk 26, AS 17, Hit 123, Avo 46, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 19, Ddg 12

1x Thunder Sage lvl 12 (Elthunder)

HP 34, Atk 26, AS 19, Hit 124, Avo 51, DEF 12, RES 18, Crit 19, Ddg 13

2x Fire Sage lvl 10 (Elfire)

HP 33, Atk 27, AS 18, Hit 132, Avo 49, DEF 12, RES 17, Crit 8, Ddg 13

2x Dragonmaster lvl 11 (Steel Poleax)

HP 41, Atk 38, AS 19, Hit 113, Avo 51, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 13

1x Dragonmaster lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 34, AS 18, Hit 127, Avo 48, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 12

2x Bishop lvl 7 (Physic)

HP 29, Atk --, AS 16, Hit --, Avo 51, DEF 10, RES 21, Crit --, Ddg 19

1x Bishop lvl 8 (Physic, Mend)

HP 29, Atk --, AS 16, Hit --, Avo 52, DEF 11, RES 21, Crit --, Ddg 20

Even supportless, he's still doing good with basic non-forge thunder alone. With a support, he could easily destroy anything on this map. Even mages succumb to supported basic thunder Soren, save for one of them. Hell, I forge a thunder to 6 mt (+3 increase) and he could one-shot wyverns supportless. With a support, only needs +1. What's so special? 2 things. 1. Does not require forging to pull off this offense, save if you wanna be fancy and one shot some wyverns for the lulz. 2. DOES NOT REQUIRE PROCCING. He needs not adept, he needs not wrath, he just is badass. No skills required. Oh, he DOES have a skill though, the lovely Flare. It doesn't help him OHKO things outside of mages and bishops, but he can with some if you forge a fire a little bit. With it, he could destroy Halberdiers in one shot quite easily. Flare is pure skill percentage. and he has 25%. Since outside of swordmasters he doubles all but 1 dude with a crossbow (if we went cheap), he has about a 37.5% chance. This only really matters towards halbs and magical bastards though. Still, one shotting is better than not. Mia is great, but she DOES require a forge and skills here. Granted I might have gicen Soren something a bit more expensive, but in exchange there's several things he doesn't even need anymore. On top of this, he can counter more things due to better range. Not only does he have range all the time, he is gonna kill what he counters. Mia needs to land crits to do this, and I'd rather not depend on dumb luck when I don't have to.

Defensively? Well like I said earlier, Mia's meatier offense is in melee, so most of the time she's stuck with it. You can't forge wing-edges, so she royally sucks with them. Since this is later than 3-4, she might have about 3, 4 more luck? Not even that? About a 10-20 avoid lead with the same support. Certainly noticeable, outside the fact their concrete durability is actually sort of similar (at that point in time). She also has vantage, but that is a percent based skill. It's not garunteed to go off every time. In fact, it only matters the first time. Based off her speed, it has a 30% chance of happening. However, Soren's Flare is 37.5%, as not only does he have a nice chance of popping one off, but since he's doubling and doesn't effect the first strike, he has more chances. Not only that, but this is also helps him recover actual health. It just saves Mia from a possible chance if perhaps she Crits, an Adept helping her chances further. Soren can just heal when he hits. This means a healer is free to heal someone else, and he made up for a time he didn't dodge. Speaking of avoid, hers is indeed better. Do tell though, who gets any closer? Only ones who come to mind is Oscar and Neph. I don't think they have this kind of offense backing them up either. Besides, Ike and Oscar are both Earth. Is it not fair to say one can have the other? Both basically benefit just as equally, though I'm sure Oscar would love more avoid over hit, but then again giving Ike more avoid is lollerskates.On top of this, like I said, Soren has better range. He just flat out does. This means he never has to take counters on player phase, as he can choose his battles. This also means if he does get hit, he can not only try to siphon HP out of the guy who hit him, but he can try with his next target. So in reality, he has 2 37.5% chances to get back lost heath, or a 55.25% chance. If my math is off, it's not THAT far from that number.

In fact, he doesn't even need to do this to recove rhealth. Why? Staffs. Yes, another form of utility the crown gives him. He can heal up some bloke with it if he's injured. However, nifty thing about staffs is if you're injured, they heal the user. So if he gets hurt, he can try to Flare it out of some fucker (even his own attacker), or just heal some dude and come the next player phase he doesn't even have to worry about it. I don't remember Mia just being able to do that. Speaking of which, staff utility helps him out in another way-leveling. Even in tier 3, a heal staff use nets him experience. Even tier 3, he's still leveling at the rate a staff user could+whatever combat he can rustle up. Actually...Didn't you guys say you get a form of Physic at some point? I'd find it hard to argue with 14 range on the sucker. Staffs ain't a cure-all to the problem, but he does have the ability to retain some form of leveling speed despite being tier 3. With he time he's got, I would think it only seems worse than it actually is.

Say what you will, but I can't find this worse than what Calill does.

Oh, should also add. What skill would Soren want, if any? How about Counter?

Transfers? Ike for murder tier and Soren for lol tier. 25 magic base (lol, Rhys's cap), insta maxed skill and res for instant slowplay BEXP use that gets Mag (2 levels later...), HP, Speed and/or Luck (and, once magic caps). Hell, speed caps and he has 20, dangerously close to doubling even earlygame. He could cap that soon too, then nothing but HP, Luck and Def/Str. Granted it's too bad Archsage caps suck royal dick, but..Jeez he'd be awesome all the way up until.

EDIT: For Oscar and Neph, I meant to say Oscar would prefer Soren's offense boost. Still though, Soren's avoid>Mia's hit for Oscar.

Edited October 4, 2009 by France

[Anouleth]

Transfers? Ike for murder tier and Soren for lol tier. 25 magic base (lol, Rhys's cap), insta maxed skill and res for instant slowplay BEXP use that gets Mag (2 levels later...), HP, Speed and/or Luck (and, once magic caps). Hell, speed caps and he has 20, dangerously close to doubling even earlygame. He could cap that soon too, then nothing but HP, Luck and Def/Str. Granted it's too bad Archsage caps suck royal dick, but..Jeez he'd be awesome all the way up until.

Well, it depends on what transfers you allow (speed transfer for Haar?), but I don't think Soren would go up that much. In fact, he'd go down - since Titania and Oscar will be on base 23 speed, they're doubling most of the stuff in 3-P while he isn't.

[Florete]

You bring up an interesting point. Do we assume, for tiering transfer versions of characters, that everyone around them got a transfer or not? This really only affects team-exclusive comparisons (DB vs. GM, etc.), but does anyone think it will change things?

EDIT: Yeah, that was wrong.

Edited October 4, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Zkirsche]

Couldn't we create a seperate tier list for discussing characters which have been transferred?

[Narga_Rocks]

I'll be honest in that I have generally no clue when this will happen. My best guess I would venture would be around 3-5, 3-7 a rough estimate? That's basically 6-7 chapters, and he's one of the lower leveled mercs. I don't see why or how he couldn't gain 5 levels at least in that time.

I can basically agree with the top half of your post, but I do wanna say one thing. He is assumed to get a speed on the next level, which would vastly reduce the amount of BEXP he'd need. If you go the cheap-ass route, he'd only need 2. Otherwise the 3 as said. Even that said, with all that time, he could be level 11 and like halfway to the next level.

Are you getting that we need him to have 23 speed before promotion? At level 11 he is basically going to have 20 speed. At level 10 he might have 20 speed. There is more variance than that, obviously, but going on the most likely scenario, that's what we get. He needs 23 speed before promotion or it ain't helping anything. You showed 3-7 where enemies have 20 speed or less (mostly) but what about 3-5 or 3-8? Then in 3-10 where a bunch have 22 speed now?

Even if you get him to level 11 he still needs 3 or 4 levels, because there is no way that speed (only 1.4x #4 and #5 growths after mag/skl/res cap) is guaranteed to go up 3 times. I can't imagine the probability of procing speed going above 75% when it is that close to str/def.

Sure, he could be halfway from level 11 to level 12 whenever we decide, but he's still swallowing over 10000 bexp, more than half for a long time.

However, there IS one thing I have a beef with you about in that post, and that's durability. One thing I'm learning about mages is how versatile they are, and Soren happens to have things going for him. First off, offense.

Also, the more turns spent healing are more turns we aren't getting much benefit from the crown, considering we already had two healers, but we made a guy (Soren in this case) that can ORKO stuff, and we didn't have very many of them before.

I already acknowledged that he can ORKO stuff. And by "stuff" I mean like Gatrie, where he (and Soren with ridiculous amounts of bexp before promotion) can ORKO anything we feel like. The thing is once 26 speed is necessary Soren is less likely to proc speed in 2 levels than Gatrie is in one, and 60% was already not reliable enough for me to accept the statement that he ORKOs all the 22 speed guys in 3-10 and 3-E. Also, in 2 levels Gats has an 84% chance of getting at least 1 speed point (assuming we crowned him at 23 speed) so that's good. Soren has ~72.5% in 3 levels. So I'll accept a +1 after 3 levels. Point is, he may not get 2 or 3 levels that quickly, especially if you don't crown him until 3-7.

First thing you seem to forget is that Mia's meatier offense is in melee. She has range, but she has to deal with proccing Adept. Soren? Well even with basic thunder, he has 32 mt, +1 ATK from support is 33, +2 if it's an A with Ike it's 34. Fire would be 34-36.

I'm not comparing his offence to Mia. I'm comparing him to Gatrie.

Even supportless, ....I don't have to.

What's the point? I get that (mostly) with Gatrie too. He didn't need 10000 bexp to do it, and he can stand there on enemy phase and do this to 5 guys while Soren does it to 1 dude on player phase and 1 or 2 on enemy phase. Soren has slightly better move than Gatrie, but only because of lower cost movement. On normal ground, it's the same, so Soren barely has an advantage there. Of course, being shoveable by almost anything is a good advantage, but it's still not going to make up for Gats' durability.

Defensively? Well like I said earlier, Mia's meatier offense is in melee, so most of the time she's stuck with it. You can't forge wing-edges, so she royally sucks with them. Since this is later than 3-4, she might have about 3, 4 more luck? Not even that? About a 10-20 avoid lead with the same support. Certainly noticeable, outside the fact their concrete durability is actually sort of similar (at that point in time).

I'm not sure you got that other post. I did make an adding mistake, but still. More avo, no crits from halbs (didn't mention that earlier) less crit from swordmasters.

Also, her hp and def will be better. If you go with a xx/14/1 Soren in 3-7, she should be level 15 by then easy. 39hp/16 def. vs. 36/15. Also, an avo lead to make at least a ~9 avo difference. But don't forget what happens in part 4. In part 4 thanks to an early crown Soren drops back to 2HKO range from things while she jumps to 4HKO from those things, or 5. The things that 3HKO her will generally have single digit listed hit rates on her, too. Even 3-E she promotes and goes like that. Basically, I'm not convinced it is safe enough to let him go into a crowd and come out.

She also has vantage, but that is a percent based skill. It's not garunteed to go off every time. In fact, it only matters the first time. Based off her speed, it has a 30% chance of happening.

Which also reduces her chance to get hit. Furthering the avo lead. She vantages and if she crits or does something else she's good. I did calcs before, but in tier 2 on neutral she reduces the chance to be hit about 14%. So like 10 drops to 8.6 or so. On best it's more significant, like 10 drops to 7.2. Or something. It's been a while and I'm not recalculating.

However, Soren's Flare is 37.5%, as not only does he have a nice chance of popping one off, but since he's doubling and doesn't effect the first strike, he has more chances. Not only that, but this is also helps him recover actual health. It just saves Mia from a possible chance if perhaps she Crits, an Adept helping her chances further. Soren can just heal when he hits. This means a healer is free to heal someone else, and he made up for a time he didn't dodge. Speaking of avoid, hers is indeed better. Do tell though, who gets any closer? Only ones who come to mind is Oscar and Neph. I don't think they have this kind of offense backing them up either. Besides, Ike and Oscar are both Earth. Is it not fair to say one can have the other? Both basically benefit just as equally, though I'm sure Oscar would love more avoid over hit, but then again giving Ike more avoid is lollerskates.On top of this, like I said, Soren has better range. He just flat out does. This means he never has to take counters on player phase, as he can choose his battles. This also means if he does get hit, he can not only try to siphon HP out of the guy who hit him, but he can try with his next target. So in reality, he has 2 37.5% chances to get back lost heath, or a 55.25% chance. If my math is off, it's not THAT far from that number.

Soren has better range until 3-10. Then he stops doubling since he needs 26 speed and won't have it. He may have it for 3-E, except now Mia is promoted and no longer relies on procs for one range anyway, and the avo gap just jumped and the comparison of concrete durability took a paradigm shift. Anyway, then comes 26 speed Soren into part 4 and aside from some generals in 4-1 he's never doubling anything ever again.

However, I suppose Oscar + Soren isn't bad, really. I've already said that Oscar probably benefits from water and dark about evenly, next best is fire and next is light/wind. This is because the biggest thing to give him would be more mt, next is more durability, and next is more hit for short spears and similar items. (So applying numbers say water/dark is a 5, fire is a 4, light/wind is a 3, if more mt is worth 3, durability 2, and hit 1. Heaven is a 1 on that scale. I guess earth is a 2 and so is thunder.) Soren has less move than Boyd and no bonds with Oscar, but I suppose it's not so bad because if you give him all that bexp and the crown you might as well make him more durable. I'm not sure whether the enemies would rather attack the less durable unit (Soren) or the unit that returns less damage to them (Oscar). If they'd attack Soren, it's an okay pairing, because stuff dies and screw Oscar's mobility and need for bonds. If they attack Oscar more frequently, it's not going to be the best use of all the bexp and the crown we gave to Soren. Anyway, Titania and Boyd miss out, but if Titania didn't get a wing then I say screw Titania. Boyd I suppose isn't high enough for us to care either.

The other thing to consider is that Mia x Ike can exist alongside crowned Gatrie and Crowned Haar, Soren can't. It's one of the reasons that Mia and Gatrie are so great, since they can be great and exist (at their peak) concurrently. Soren takes what makes two units great and makes one unit great. Actually, Soren takes what makes 3 characters great (bexp on Ulki thrown in) to make one character great.

I'm not going to run numbers on chance to die, especially since Soren can miss a flare on the first hit but flare the second and get less hp out of it, or if he's attacking weakened enemies might get one or two out of it. Various factors that complicate the matter, but he may approach her durability thanks to flare. But that only really lasts until around 3-10 when he may stop doubling or mid 3-11 early 3-E when she promotes.

Also, before promotion, like in 3-4 when they could both have a B, she is going to be quite a lot more durable with Ike than Soren with Ike, considering 30 speed vs. 20 speed. So his time period where he approaches the power of the Ike x Mia pairing with his own Ike x Soren pairing is basically like 3-7 and 3-8 and 3-11. That's pretty limited.

In fact, he doesn't even need to do this to recove rhealth. Why? Staffs. Yes, another form of utility the crown gives him. He can heal up some bloke with it if he's injured. However, nifty thing about staffs is if you're injured, they heal the user. So if he gets hurt, he can try to Flare it out of some fucker (even his own attacker), or just heal some dude and come the next player phase he doesn't even have to worry about it. I don't remember Mia just being able to do that. Speaking of which, staff utility helps him out in another way-leveling. Even in tier 3, a heal staff use nets him experience. Even tier 3, he's still leveling at the rate a staff user could+whatever combat he can rustle up. Actually...Didn't you guys say you get a form of Physic at some point? I'd find it hard to argue with 14 range on the sucker. Staffs ain't a cure-all to the problem, but he does have the ability to retain some form of leveling speed despite being tier 3. With he time he's got, I would think it only seems worse than it actually is.

Except when you crown someone you probably want them destroying stuff, not doing what Mist and Rhys can do anyway. I said it before, any turn he spends healing is a turn where our ORKOing crowned beast is not ORKOing. Also, if you want that self-healing from the staff he gives up an enemy phase because he can't use his magic to counter. So that's a player phase and an enemy phase in which our crowned wonderboy isn't killing stuff. Also, it's a turn in which either Soren needs walling or Ike needs to go hide or Ike misses his support. That's kind of annoying. Also, letting him use our ~10 use physic between 3-2 and 3-10 is foolish considering you just gave him an Ike support and a crown so he clearly has way more durability than Mist/Rhys so he should be mending or healing if we really need him to heal rather than kill something. And again, it's like 10 uses or something and we don't get another until 3-11 (end of 3-10 when we steal, but effectively 3-11). That's not an effective way of distributing resources.

Anyway, I'll give him maybe one self heal a map and 1 or 2 heal/mend of other units. Anything more than that is likely putting the crown to waste. I'm still not seeing 3 levels by 3-10, so he's got a chance of pulling 26 speed in 2 levels, but it's only 57.75%, which, by the way, is less than Mia with Adept + steel blade for proc rates, forget the critforge. I suppose he can take skills to try to get a higher rate of killing when he misses out on the speed, but that's now Ike support, crown, 10000 bexp, and skills. Basically taking what makes 3 amazing characters, or 2 amazing and 2 pretty good (if we spread skills a bit more), and making one. Also, this one guy blows a few turns every map to heal other units rather than kill something because he's trying to level enough to restart doubling.

Say what you will, but I can't find this worse than what Calill does.

I'm thinking his opportunity cost might be too high for him to do all this, but if he could ORKO for most of part 3 for cheap then it would be better than Calill actually doubling stuff in part 4.

Oh, should also add. What skill would Soren want, if any? How about Counter?

I don't think counter is a good idea. He has flare. In order to activate counter, he'd need to be attacked. But before 3-10 when he is already doubling things he ORKOs anyway, so all counter does is prevent him from recovering as much hp if he flares on the second hit. Like, he takes 10 damage, enemy takes 5, and suddenly instead of recovering all 10 he only recovers 5, or some such thing.

If you have a resolve kicking around you can now take what makes 4 characters great (crown for Gatrie, Ike support for Mia, bexp for Ulki, resolve for Mordecai) and make 1 character super great. I suppose it is possible that not one of those 4 characters are going to be deployed. Considering he is already ORKOing stuff, the only thing for skills is to boost mobility or defence, so celerity or pass or something for mobility, resolve or cancel or vantage + cancel or something for durability. Again, though, more things focused onto one character.

Transfers? Ike for murder tier and Soren for lol tier. 25 magic base (lol, Rhys's cap), insta maxed skill and res for instant slowplay BEXP use that gets Mag (2 levels later...), HP, Speed and/or Luck (and, once magic caps). Hell, speed caps and he has 20, dangerously close to doubling even earlygame. He could cap that soon too, then nothing but HP, Luck and Def/Str. Granted it's too bad Archsage caps suck royal dick, but..Jeez he'd be awesome all the way up until.

Except all those GMs get better, too. If we were to put in the transfer units then it would look like this:

Game Breaking Tier:

Ike with hp/str/skl/spd/def (gets close to all of those in PoR, though hp needs a robe. Without robe, gets to 53 with some band usage, so robe caps)

Top Tier:

blah blah

Anyway, a point was brought up that with a transfer unit the others have transfers too. Well, that's not really a problem. See, the original tier list would be as is, but in addition to the non-transfer units, you'd also get the transfer versions added to the list. So transfer Soren would be compared against the non-transfer units and he could rise over some of the non-transfer GMs and units that can't get transfers, but other transfer units might then jump above him.

For example, say:

Tanith

Kieran

Geoffrey

Calill

Soren

So all those units can get transfers. Maybe it would look like this after:

Tainth (T)

Kieran (T)

Tanith

Soren (T)

Kieran

Calill (T)

Geoffrey (both)

Calill

Soren

In that example, Transfer Soren moves above some units, because the transfer version of Soren is simply better than the non-transfer versions of Calill/Geoffrey/Kieran, but not the non-transfer version of Tanith.

The transfer version of Calill is maybe not better than the vanilla version of Kieran but she is better than Geoffrey, so she moves above Geoffrey but not Kieran.

Geoffrey's transfer gets him nothing, since he needs 8 speed in 9 levels and KW only gives him 85%, so since he's probably not getting it each level we don't give it to him. Anyway, Transfer Geoffrey = Vanilla Geoffrey, so nothing happens.

Transfer Kieran is better than normal Tanith, so he jumps ahead of her and Transfer Soren.

Transfer Tanith is better than Transfer Kieran, so she jumps above him.

Anyway, I'm not saying that is where they end up, just using it as an example of how it would work. Soren (T) could be quite a few places higher than Soren, but it is theoretically possible he wouldn't jump above any units' transfer versions (if say Calill (T) > Soren (T)) and yet could jump above 3 or 4 non-transfer units (like in the example where he's above C/G/K.) It would be a small change, but not drastic. Or maybe after analysis it's decided Soren (T) is better than the other units (T) versions, well then he'd be above those too.

[Florete]

Couldn't we create a seperate tier list for discussing characters which have been transferred?

I personally like the idea of comparing transferred versions to non-transferred versions, and not every character would have a separate "transfer" slot anyway, so a separate tier list would probably see a lot of the same things.

Hell, this would make for some interesting debates. Something like Jill (transfer) vs. Zihark, with the specific transferred stats decided on before the debate starts (Meaning no "Spd only has a w/e% chance of capping in PoR, so she only gets it however many times" stuff).

Anyway, a point was brought up that with a transfer unit the others have transfers too. Well, that's not really a problem. See, the original tier list would be as is, but in addition to the non-transfer units, you'd also get the transfer versions added to the list. So transfer Soren would be compared against the non-transfer units and he could rise over some of the non-transfer GMs and units that can't get transfers, but other transfer units might then jump above him.

Yeah, which is why I mentioned that it would only affect separate team comparisons. If we do Zihark (transfer) vs. Mia (transfer) do we assume Jill/Titania/Ike/etc. got transfers as well or not? It's very possible that could change things since that comparison would be based not only on performance vs. enemies, but performance compared to their team becomes a big issue as well.

Anyway, I'll put some separate transfer slots on later today and we'll see how things go from there. If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to speak up.

[Narga_Rocks]

Hell, this would make for some interesting debates. Something like Jill (transfer) vs. Zihark, with the specific transferred stats decided on before the debate starts (Meaning no "Spd only has a w/e% chance of capping in PoR, so she only gets it however many times" stuff).

This is why I have to go with Int on this one. Fixed mode. Using their base points as well. Band usage would need some arbitration, it could be argued a character can't get all their levels with a band that gives str. On the other hand, we could just apply bands as they maximize the number of stats that cap in fixed mode and ignore whether or not some character can reasonably get a band that gives str for 18 of 26 level ups, or whatever. Then there is the modifications from the weapon in use and also from the enemies being attacked. It would still be kind of hard to arbitrate that way. Maybe your original everything >30% chance or whatever it was is more reasonable.

Anyway, a point was brought up that with a transfer unit the others have transfers too. Well, that's not really a problem. See, the original tier list would be as is, but in addition to the non-transfer units, you'd also get the transfer versions added to the list. So transfer Soren would be compared against the non-transfer units and he could rise over some of the non-transfer GMs and units that can't get transfers, but other transfer units might then jump above him.

Yeah, which is why I mentioned that it would only affect separate team comparisons. If we do Zihark (transfer) vs. Mia (transfer) do we assume Jill/Titania/Ike/etc. got transfers as well or not? It's very possible that could change things since that comparison would be based not only on performance vs. enemies, but performance compared to their team becomes a big issue as well.

Didn't think of it like that. Still, Mia and co. mostly compete with their own teammates. The list has some things like Boyd below Aran and Oscar below Jill, but Zihark is below Nailah and with just str, skl, spd, I'm not seeing Zihark > Nailah since all he's getting is +4 avo and he doesn't need the brave sword against as many enemies since a forged iron/steel will kill more things than before. Also, I suppose he doubles 20 AS cats at base level and in just 1 or 2 levels will most likely be doubling the 22 AS ones. 70% is so high we should almost just assume he's getting 26 speed after one level. (91% after two levels, heck he's got a 49% chance of getting 2 points after 2 levels.) But I suppose that if Oscar (T) is worse than his (T) counterparts by more than Oscar (P) is compared to his (P) counterparts, but Jill (T) is greater than her (P (new characters) and T) counterparts by more than Jill (P) is compared to her (P) counterparts then that would be a big enough deal that we can't just look at how much better Oscar (T) does against his enemies than Oscar (P) does.

Most (T) characters, though, aren't going to jump ahead of other (T) characters if the plain version isn't above the other plain version.

Or, Gatrie (T) is not likely to be > Titania (T) even if he's above Titania (P).

I'm not sure what to say, really.

I suppose Jill (T) and Oscar (T) are guaranteed to exist (either in alternate realities or the same reality) because they are being compared, but the other (T) characters may or may not exist. There are only so many units that can reach 20/20, so just because Oscar (T) exists, it doesn't mean that Nephenee (T) will also exist. She might exist, because clearly there is a PoR save that has been transfered, but she isn't guaranteed to exist.

It could be like comparing Zihark to Janaff. Gatrie may or may not be in play, so Janaff may or may not be more important. Also, Titania may or may not be there. So same thing with transfer characters. Oscar (T)'s value increases relative to a team of all (P)s, but may only stay about the same as (P) vs. (P) when compared to a team of all (T)s, so on average his value to the team increases, just not to as valuable as Oscar (T) vs. GM (P) would be. Maybe halfway there, or something. And then in part 4 the comparison can be direct. Not sure if that helps or makes it more complicated.

[Sol Hiryu]

I just wanted to ask something for clarification. Assuming you guys are going to tier transferred people, shouldn't it factor in the actual difficulty of those units reaching those caps in PoR? Assuming its normal mode (you guys did say that, right? Or was I imagining it?), a core team of around ten units should be able to reach 20/20 and cap.

This also brings up the point of a unit's chance to cap their stats. Are you assuming averages for them, or using favorable chances for them to cap those stats? If so, pretty much all of the GMs would probably rise, and more of the late-game PoR units wouldn't really change. This is the one thing that I feel that you can't really compare fairly; obviously, it's a no-brainer to get a Transfer!Ike and rape the game with him, but it's quite another when it's someone like Haar, whose chances of getting a good transfer are pretty low.

I propose that the transfer debate topic be revived and the whole thing looked at more in depth, because it's obvious that other units are going to get transfers more easily than others will.