OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

How is most of that any different from what Calill is already doing? I think you just don't appreciate Calill (V) enough. Only difference I'm seeing is that transfer Calill can crown in 4-P/1/2 without losing anything and Calill (V) has to stay unpromoted until 4-3/4/5. She's not ORKOing Levail regardless, so Micaiah purges and Calill KOs and both V and T Calill can pull that one off. This means her speed goes up a little more quickly and she has maybe 2 more magic at times than Calill (V) and reaches SS sooner, but I don't think there is a tier's difference between Calill (T) and Calill (V).

If she doubles a lot more stuff in 2-E and 3-9 with 20 speed (and probably 21 for 3-9, 22 near the end) then I could maybe see a tier difference, since she'd have more improvements and probably double in 3-E as well. I suppose doing better than she already does in 2-E and 3-9 and 3-E and 4-P/1/2 could be enough for a tier's difference, but I'm not sure.

Pardon, just I have grown a tad cynical of this list. I've just grown to assume that anyone below upper mid is only good at one point in the game/useful/niche/suck, and that it's considered too much effort to bother trying. You can see at times I'm the type that tries too hard.

...

wait

...

Lucia in endgame? Wha?

Look at level 10 Zihark

Look at base Lucia

Realize with a Talisman, I could slowplay her to promotion to make something at the mere push of a few buttons as opposed to actually having to put effort into Zihark, which means effort in *gasp* a DB member!

Realize she has Parity to nullify Aura.

Realize she has an Earth affinity and can benefit someone otherwise supportless, like Elincia or Calill.

Realize she is forced on the exp rich Tibarn's Route.

She's not in lower mid because she sucks, she's in lower mid because she's expensive and only really useful in endgame. Either way, if Zihark's part 4 is passable, so should hers.

edit:

and at least Neph is mostly 3HKOd in part 3. Calill is 2HKOd far more often, and Neph can eventually pull off 4HKO pretty frequently, I think. Also, Neph doesn't really have a period of time in which she isn't doubling.

Fair enough, but V Neph is always doubling with low weight weak weapons. I recall great weapons being a bit of a problem for her in hard. Steel greatlances anyways. Besides, base Neph has 20 speed, Transfer Calill's base. If Neph is never not doubling, Calill shouldn't have trouble in 2-E at least. On top of that, Calill with magic+ can actually ORKO some things with forged fire, like those pain in the ass generals.

[Interceptor]

Fair enough, but V Neph is always doubling with low weight weak weapons. I recall great weapons being a bit of a problem for her in hard. Steel greatlances anyways.

Giving Nephenee a Steel Greatlance voluntarily at any point in her career makes about as much sense as a submarine with a screen door. Not only does a Steel forge have higher mt than a Steel Greatlance, but a SILVER Greatlance has better mt and is unlikely to slow her down when she uses it. Even in Part 2, she has a Steel Lance via Leanne-hax for 2-2. Neph is not doing all that great in 2-E except for ledge shenanigans, but Part 3 she's doing pretty well.

[Florete]

Realize with a Talisman, I could slowplay her to promotion to make something at the mere push of a few buttons as opposed to actually having to put effort into Zihark, which means effort in *gasp* a DB member!

I think I've mentioned this before, but you really can't slowplay Lucia, she doesn't have any time. Slowplaying is getting a unit close to a level at the end of the map and capping the level off with BEXP for better gains, Lucia only has 3 base sessions before Endgame. She'd need a BEXP dump to get your desired stats, and she won't even start getting Str until 3 levels in when her Skl and Spd cap. So, if you had that kind of BEXP, she'd end tier 2 with only 21 Str, and she won't get any more BEXP potential for a while.

[grandjackal]

Fair enough, but V Neph is always doubling with low weight weak weapons. I recall great weapons being a bit of a problem for her in hard. Steel greatlances anyways.

Giving Nephenee a Steel Greatlance voluntarily at any point in her career makes about as much sense as a submarine with a screen door. Not only does a Steel forge have higher mt than a Steel Greatlance, but a SILVER Greatlance has better mt and is unlikely to slow her down when she uses it. Even in Part 2, she has a Steel Lance via Leanne-hax for 2-2. Neph is not doing all that great in 2-E except for ledge shenanigans, but Part 3 she's doing pretty well.

Oh, if it's part 3 he meant, then yeah. My bad on the not doubling deal.

[Narga_Rocks]

Pardon, just I have grown a tad cynical of this list. I've just grown to assume that anyone below upper mid is only good at one point in the game/useful/niche/suck, and that it's considered too much effort to bother trying. You can see at times I'm the type that tries too hard.

Meh. I've always trumpeted Calill's endgame over Soren and claimed that since he's never really doubling much anyway for the rest of his career he's not doing anything to put him over her part 4. I actually wonder if she (V) couldn't go over Kieran and Geoffrey, but oh well.

Look at level 10 Zihark

Look at base Lucia

Realize with a Talisman, I could slowplay her to promotion to make something at the mere push of a few buttons as opposed to actually having to put effort into Zihark, which means effort in *gasp* a DB member!

Realize she has Parity to nullify Aura.

Realize she has an Earth affinity and can benefit someone otherwise supportless, like Elincia or Calill.

Realize she is forced on the exp rich Tibarn's Route.

She's not in lower mid because she sucks, she's in lower mid because she's expensive and only really useful in endgame. Either way, if Zihark's part 4 is passable, so should hers.

She's in lower mid because we don't have the bexp to spend on her. There is no slowplaying with her. She needs to be promoted or near promotion for 4-5, and being actually promoted in 4-E-1 is important if we want her 4HKOing generals like Zihark instead of 5HKOing them. Also, having her with SS swords would help because I can't imagine her hitting 4HKO with a silver forge. (Meanwhile Mia is 3HKOing with a silver forge, go Mia!).

As Red Fox said, you have 3 bases. Both Lucia and Ulki do the same thing with a talisman, and Ulki can do it in more chapters. But even so, if you give Lucia the thing anyway then I still can't imagine dumping 3400 bexp into her at the start of 2-2 for a level, considering she'd just get hp/skl/spd anyway. Not to mention we'd only have 2425 bexp anyway and that's with leaving the volunteers alive, which isn't easy for me anyway. I can pull it off in PoR chapter 11, but that is structured very differently than this one is.

So she gets two bases, and in 4-2 she still has the whole hp/skl/spd problem. So she levels a bit in 4-2 and gets hp/skl/spd/res capped. So now we can give her mag/str/lck, though def might kick out one of those and let's hope it isn't str. Then she fights a bit and promotes in 4-5 and has 23.25 str at promotion instead of 22.5 str. Go Lucia. 7 levels later is only 25 str and just 45 mt with a Vague Katti. This 4HKOs the generals in 4-E-1. She pulls a 3HKO on nothing, considering she does not have an A support with anything right now. Even with abuse, all she could have an A with right now that gives mt is Brom/Heather/Mordy. So 46 mt 4HKOs the lot of them, assuming C Calill or something. Of course, without any bexp a 20/6 or 20/7 pulls 45 mt with a C Calill/Marcia anyway. Assuming paragon use it's probably doable with all the friendly laguz.

I could maybe see dumping 1.2 levels or something on her in 4-5, but no more than that. So assuming she stops fighting in 4-2 once she hits 18.8 or something, she could have maybe 24 str for 4-5 at level 20/1, assuming crown or some fighting in 4-5 at level 20 in tier 2. Suppose 8 levels in 4-5 (I guess paragon) and a C support and she has 47 mt in 4-E-1 with the Vague Katti. I suppose she actually pulls 3HKO on the 50hp/30def and 51hp/30def guys, so that's something. Oh, 3HKO is a huge deal because once a unit hits 3HKO and doubling they become as good an adept user as just about anybody else in 4-E, so that means she gets to compare a good proc rate to other units' good proc rates rather than a bad one against their good ones. Annoying thing is her support finally hits A in 4-E-4 or 4-E-5 when earth no longer matters. Elincia is the only one that can probably pull off an A for 4-E-2 but then Lucia doesn't get +mt. At least she'll never miss, e.v.e.r.

Oh, and innate parity means zilch in 4-E-5 when nobody really wants other skills anyway so the fact she gets it for 0 and others have to pay capacity for it is irrelevant. Really, the only things I see a use for are:

4. Celerity

3. Pass

1. Nihil/Parity (tie, because some units can't use parity well but Mia/Tibarn use Parity better than they would use nihil)

Not sure there is much else. Maybe I missed something, though.

Fair enough, but V Neph is always doubling with low weight weak weapons. I recall great weapons being a bit of a problem for her in hard. Steel greatlances anyways. Besides, base Neph has 20 speed, Transfer Calill's base. If Neph is never not doubling, Calill shouldn't have trouble in 2-E at least. On top of that, Calill with magic+ can actually ORKO some things with forged fire, like those pain in the ass generals.

Forged fire doesn't happen for Calill until 3-11. She needs 39 mt to ORKO the generals there. Some drop to 37 mt, but the distribution is:

37 mt: KOs 2

38 mt: KOs 2 more

39 mt: KOs the last 4

So with a support she needs 26 mag just to ORKO the weakest with a forged fire. Since that requires promotion, I'm thinking no. Also, xx/3 is required for 39 mt even with a support.

Anyway, I think it is time to fix some misconceptions about Neph in 2-2 and 2-E.

I suppose I shouldn't ignore 2-1, though.

29 mt with steel greatlance. 17AS

22 mt with javelin. 20 AS.

Brom has

27 mt with iron axe. 16 AS

I think a steel axe comes from a house.

30 mt with a steel axe. 16 AS.

Ignoring the volunteers (they are ORKOd by either the javelin or the steel greatlance), there are 11 enemies. Javelin doubles 7 of them.

14/32 remaining on a soldier

9/29 remaining on an archer

1RKOs a fire mage

6/30 remaining on a wind mage

The two armors only take 8 damage and take 11 from her steel greatlance hitting once 25/36 remaining and 27/38 remaining after steel greatlance

A bandit takes 10 damage and takes 12 from her steel greatlance.

The others get attacked by her steel greatlance:

18/33 remaining on two soldiers

26/40 remaining on a bandit

Boss takes 9 damage (and on enemy phase if he attacks her he might drop her to wrath range and he might take 27)

29/38 remaing, or possibly 11/38 remaining

Also, if she levels before the 17 AS enemies are dead and happens to pull the 65% chance of getting speed:

4 more enemies are doubled, though only 2 take more pain from the javelin than the greatlance.

So the two soldiers are left at 17/33 instead of 18/33. Not a big change, I suppose, considering neither Brom nor Neph can 2RKO in combination against them yet.

Anyway, in 2-2 she has 25 mt and 21 speed, probably. That's with a steel lance. She 2RKOs a lot now, and 3HKOs some of the soldiers, even. Also, 18 AS with the steel greatlance doubles one general and 3HKOs = 2RKOs. ORKOs 3 mages, though even the javelin ORKOs those guys. Aside from the generals with more def than the weak one, she either doubles and 2/3/4 HKOs meaning ORKO or 2RKO, or she 3HKOs with a steal greatlance and 3RKOs.

Let's look at one guy she 3RKOs

1x Halberdier lvl 3 (Steel Lance, stealable vulnerary)

HP 34, Atk 27, AS 18, Hit 127, Avo 47, DEF 15, RES 12, Crit 14, Ddg 11

Mordy does 23 damage, and Neph OHKOs. Actually, if Neph procs str at any point, or if you had Neph and Brom adjacent for 9 turns in 2-1 (or 8 turns and two shoves) then Neph can OHKO the thing with a steel lance. This is useful, considering Mordy will probably be first attacking a lot of enemies, and if Neph can OHKO the things, that speeds up efficiency.

Ignoring armors/generals, she doubles 18 of these things. Well, one of the armors is actually good for her to double, so 19. Only 28 enemies. Also, aside from the generals she is basically OHKOing anything Mordy leaves behind. Additionally, Nealuchi's 27 mt and massive speed means Neal + Neph kill almost everything. Only 3 out of 28 enemies survive the Neal + Neph combo attack (most of the dead enemies are actually 3HKOd by the combination, meaning Neph isn't even countered (Neal first Neph second is simply good tactics)). Lethe has 26 mt so a few more things survive (often with just 1 hp) like:

1x Halberdier lvl 3 (Venin Lance, stealable vulnerary, Turn 5, southwest)

HP 34, Atk 24, AS 18, Hit 132, Avo 47, DEF 16, RES 12, Crit 14, Ddg 11

, but there aren't very many like him. Also nothing has >20 AS, so Lethe doubles everything.

In 2-E, the armor/general swarm on the right is pointless. The map can be cleared at any time so it's all about getting the items and getting exp. Since the enemies in the west are quite similar in level to the ones on the right, and non-generals are so much easier to kill than generals, and you get the ledge bonus in the west that you don't get in the east, it seems to me if Neph is going to be fighting she'll be poking at things with a javelin from above. It's trivial to get the dracoshield and both olivi grasses if you know what you are doing, so there really isn't any advantage to clearing out the general swarm.

24 mt, 22 AS. Some bexp makes 23 AS, and making someone double now and having them make use of the bexp in part 3 > doing something different with it.

25 mt with C Brom, which should happen by now considering they are a 01 and it takes 5 adjacents in two chapters to pull it off.

23 AS fails to double...swordmasters. Aside from that, yay for doubling.

24 mt 2RKOs all the warriors. 4HKO.

25 mt 2RKOs all the 16 def halbs.

4RKOs swordmasters, so don't pelt them. 30mt with steal greatlance may not be the greatest of ideas, though, so probably don't attack them at all because of the possibility of a critcounter.

Snipers can also instablick. 2 rounds all of them, though.

ORKOs the weaker thunder sages (1 at the start and all thunder sage reinforcements)

Steel greatlance of course ORKOs the others (23 - 3 = 20 AS and they have 16), so if the opportunity presents itself...

otherwise, javelin (with brom) from above leaves them with 3hp.

Oh, and of course steel lance means 25 mt, or 26 with Brom, compared to 24 or 25 with a ledge and javelin, so the difference is mainly taking counters or not, and even that doesn't apply to some situations (bow users, mages, finishing kills).

Anyway, (T) Calill with elfire and 19 + 2 + 7 = 28 mt still only has 20 AS.

Neph probably has 21 or 22 AS just from her 2-1 and 2-2. Also, her speed growth is second at 65% and the next best is 45%. Calill has a 55% speed growth which is tied for second but the fourth best is 50% (only .05 down) and 5th best is 45% (only .1 down). Her 6th best is down at 35% (.2 down), which is the distance between Neph's speed and #3! So considering Calill has a higher base level and can probably only get two levels out of bexp and she's gone until 3-9 and 2 levels aren't even remotely guaranteed to actually get her even 22 AS? I'd say Neph can still grab that bexp and get 23 AS now and double stuff here. Also, another level or two in 2-E and she'll never have to worry about doubling non-swordmaster/pegs again.

If you decide to get (T) Calill 2 bexp levels anyway and she actually pulls off speed on both, 22 AS still doesn't double a bunch of warriors and she can't ORKO many of the promoted units anyway with 28 mt. I suppose the bexp levels might proc mag, but skill/spd/lck/res are more likely. Maybe she has 29 mt if she's lucky. So 30 or 31 mt shooting down a ledge will probably ORKO most of the 18 AS enemies, but the 19 AS enemies are still only 2 rounded anyway. Cool thing I suppose is she ORKOs the nullify general from above even with just the spd and mag transfer. Not doing it without the transfer, considering +2mag + +2spd is not happening in 2 bexp levels.

Actually, (T) Calill can do fairly well against the generals with just 20 AS considering aside from about 8 generals (that includes reinforcements) 20 AS doubles them all. And in one or two levels when she procs speed 21 AS doubles all but 3. She's only ORKOing the armors, not the generals, without a height advantage, but 30 mt ORKOs a fair portion.

Still, Neph doesn't need to beat her here to justify a tier difference, although Neph might just beat her here anyway. At least, considering the unlikeliness of (T) Calill getting to 22 AS with just two bexp levels, compared to Neph's almost sure thing at 23 AS with just 2 bexp levels. Considering (T) Calill is almost the only unit that is any good against the generals there doesn't seem to be much point in going down the east just to make Calill look a lot better than Neph.

Fair enough, but V Neph is always doubling with low weight weak weapons. I recall great weapons being a bit of a problem for her in hard. Steel greatlances anyways.

Giving Nephenee a Steel Greatlance voluntarily at any point in her career makes about as much sense as a submarine with a screen door. Not only does a Steel forge have higher mt than a Steel Greatlance, but a SILVER Greatlance has better mt and is unlikely to slow her down when she uses it. Even in Part 2, she has a Steel Lance via Leanne-hax for 2-2. Neph is not doing all that great in 2-E except for ledge shenanigans, but Part 3 she's doing pretty well.

screen door on a submarine = good times. Hopefully they'd figure out the problem at the surface, but I suppose the bureaucrats/generals might just decide to deny reality and order them to go on their mission or something and the captain would have to decide whether he'd like to be court martialed or drown. Anyway, too bad the silver greatlance only has 50 hit. Even level 8 Neph has just

24 x 2 + 15 + 15 + 50 = 128 hit.

Around 75 listed at neutral to neutral in 3-2 (lots of pallies with low 50s avo), I suppose. 87.75% true means ~77% chance of hitting twice, so it's not horribad, it's just not as good as others can do. Still, doubling is better than not doubling, so if for whatever reason she comes up 1 AS short of doubling with a steel grealance than the silver is a better choice. Of course, unless silver greatlance means a KO and forged steel does not I see no reason not to have a forged steel.

Fair enough, but V Neph is always doubling with low weight weak weapons. I recall great weapons being a bit of a problem for her in hard. Steel greatlances anyways.

Giving Nephenee a Steel Greatlance voluntarily at any point in her career makes about as much sense as a submarine with a screen door. Not only does a Steel forge have higher mt than a Steel Greatlance, but a SILVER Greatlance has better mt and is unlikely to slow her down when she uses it. Even in Part 2, she has a Steel Lance via Leanne-hax for 2-2. Neph is not doing all that great in 2-E except for ledge shenanigans, but Part 3 she's doing pretty well.

Oh, if it's part 3 he meant, then yeah. My bad on the not doubling deal.

Mostly part 3, considering it's partly the availability advantage that puts Neph so high in upper mid.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

How much are we weighing the BK's 1-9 performance?

[Narga_Rocks]

How much are we weighing the BK's 1-9 performance?

I'd have to say as much as anybody else gets for being of paramount importance in their chapter. While some might argue it's like playing in a cutscene or something, the game doesn't see it that way. It is no less a chapter than any other, and Micaiah can die from the enemies appearing out of nowhere here just as easily as anywhere else, unless you know precisely when/where they are showing up. Or just follow Vykan's video, I guess. Either way, he should easily get more credit for 1-9 than, say, Geoffrey gets for 2-3.

Edit: think about Sothe and Micaiah and the soldiers at the beginning of the game. That's a cutscene/video/whatever. If the game meant 1-9 to be seen that way then they could have just as easily made a video depicting Micaiah dancing around trees trying to hide from enemies in the dark followed by the BK showing up and killing the enemies and beating down Jarod. They didn't, whether it was money or whatever, they didn't. Therefore, 1-9 is no less a chapter than any other.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[_____]

In other words, the Black Knight is the only reason why we are able to progress past 1-9 in the game. That's pretty huge.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Ninji

[Interceptor]

In other words, the Black Knight is the only reason why we are able to progress past 1-9 in the game. That's pretty huge.

No, that's just a rebranded "Sieze argument", since the Lord is required for such things. Realistically, if we're ranking efficient game completion, the BK is required for efficiency, but only so much weight can be assigned to whatever he does here because he only has a limited footprint on turncount, for one.

[Narga_Rocks]

In other words, the Black Knight is the only reason why we are able to progress past 1-9 in the game. That's pretty huge.

No, that's just a rebranded "Sieze argument", since the Lord is required for such things. Realistically, if we're ranking efficient game completion, the BK is required for efficiency, but only so much weight can be assigned to whatever he does here because he only has a limited footprint on turncount, for one.

Which is why there is no way he should go any higher than he is now, and why I can see Neph and Laura over him pretty easily. The issue with Tibarn and Naesala is they are just around for ~4 chapters, which isn't a lot more than the BK's 2 and a half (not counting 4-3 since he's an (annoying) ally). And since BK vs. his competition is on another level than Tibarn vs. his, I'd have to say putting the BK above them is reasonable despite the small chapter differential.

edit: not that Tibarn's competition diminishes his power in his chapters, just that his footprint on turncount isn't as huge. I don't know if it is possible for Micaiah to solo the chapter without abusing her level ups, though, considering all you can give her is one robe (two robes are irrelevant if one caps anyway, or 1 hp down) and a draco. The energy drop doesn't help and the wing hasn't appeared yet. I suppose ashera icon, but that's not going to do much. Micaiah on best on a thicket has a half decent avo, but it's not enough to consistently take two attacks and live. Anyway, say it is possible for Micaiah to solo, BK should definitely reduce the turncount drastically. I'm not entirely certain about BK > Tibarn/Naesala, it's just that you have so many units that I can't imagine Naesala or Tibarn shaving off too much. For example, Elincia in 4-5 can ORKO the boss at level 11 (3HKO with amiti...yeah, g'night boss). 2 turning should be quite easy with just Elincia, though I'm not sure paragon in 4-2 gets her to level 11. Anyway, she has one turn to kill a laguz or two and get some exp. Sages use ranged meteor to KO a cat to clear the way for Elincia. As for Tibarn in 4-2, yeah, he's pretty great. Then 4-E-1 comes and he's just another dude that 3HKOs. Nice proc rate, but nothing other units can't get close to. I suppose a str proc if he can manage a level will let him ORKO a bunch of them, but still. Dragons are 3HKOd, whites are 2HKOd, but wyrmslayers exist. Also, Nolan and Shinon really do a number on deg himself, and cain and giffca exist too. 4-E-4 is just spirits and a boss, and I suppose Tibarn's move helps him get to the boss for a 2 turn with Reyson or a 1 turn with Rafiel, but still... Nailah has a chance at 40 spd, but without it I suppose Tibs helps with 2 turning ashera. 3 turning isn't too huge, though.

I don't know. Maybe Tibs/Naesala could go back above BK, but nobody else has even attempted to defend them.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

Yeah, Soren's fanbase has issues.

As for Sothe, maybe people just think that the belly shirt is really stupid or something. Also, people exaggerate Bane's badness.

His spd growth isn't very thief-like, though, and his str growth is not appropriate for his caps. A 45% str growth and a 60% spd growth would make Sothe significantly better. Maybe even cut some of his skill and give it to hp and def. Probably cut off 25% of his skill growth to make it 55% and make hp 40% and def 35%. Suddenly, Sothe would be much better, despite his caps. Also, if the transfer Sothe got a +2 hp, +1 str, +2 mag, +1 skl, +1 spd, +1 def, +2 res promotion bonus it would help too, considering Sothe did basically promote from PoR, so a direct transfer is stupid. Actually, since he insists on wearing that stupid shirt they should give him the female promotion bonuses, so +2 str/+2 def on top of his transfer stats and +3 str/+3 def for tier 3. Now he's actually pretty decent.

At least the Sothe haters have a better reason for hating Sothe than I do for hating Zihark.

Though I don't know if my reasons for hating Rhys in both PoR and RD are worse than your reasons for hating Zihark...

[grandjackal]

I think the reason people don't defend Naesala and Tibarn is because the BK does something much more important-Negate having to put effort into the DB. Tibarn and Naesala just show up and are really good people who can fly, and nothing more really. We got great people now, just they can't fly.

[Narga_Rocks]

@ Red Fox:

If you want to put up reset abused Transfer Sothe into epic tier and create a tier for Transfer Ike (possibly above epic tier) that seems like a fun place to start. Then we can all just work down the tier list. Or should I calculate what more units can reasonably cap first?

Anyway, Reyson gets skill and that's it, so Reyson could be listed as Reyson (V/T).

Haar would be the next to look at.

edit: oh, and currently there are 13 units in upper mid and only 15 in mid, instead of 12 and 16.

edit2:

Okay, Sothe in PoR, I'll calculate. I'm assuming that if his blossom growths are x/90 rather than x/100 then his band growths are (x+5)/90 as well, and that knives count as "everything else" and thus provide no adjustment.

So Sothe starts at:

20.5 hp

5 str

1 mag

7 skl

11.5 spd

5.4 luck

4.3 def

0 res

I'm just going to assume that fixed mode with blossom adds x/90 where x is the growth rate and that it adds it directly to the stats I typed.

Translating to mixed fractions with a denominator of 90 (and the (usually) improper fraction in brackets) it becomes

20 45/90 hp (1845/90)

5 str (450/90)

1 mag (90/90)

7 skl (630/90)

11 45/90 spd (1035/90)

5 36/90 luck (486/90)

4 27/90 def (387/90)

0 res. (0/90)

He has 19 levels in PoR, so going with 19x /90 where x is the growth and adding that to what I have means:

1140/90 gets added to hp

1045/90 gets added to str

190/90 gets added to mag

1330/90 gets added to skl

1235/90 gets added to spd

1045/90 gets added to lck

665/90 gets added to def

570/90 gets added to res

2985/90 hp --> 33 15/90 vs. 35

1495/90 str --> 16 55/90 vs. 18

280/90 mag --> 3 10/90 vs. 4

1960/90 skl --> 20 160/90 vs. 20

2270/90 spd --> 20 470/90 vs. 20

1531/90 lck --> 17 1/90 vs. 15

1052/90 def --> 11 62/90 vs. 14

570/90 res --> 6 30/90 vs. 9

So basically he needs 75 points to be one down in hp, or 165 points to tie.

He needs 35 points to be one down in str, or 125 to tie.

Mag is irrelevant if Sothe never touches imbue.

He can give up 160 points or 32 levels while losing .05, so since weapons don't affect anything for him he is capping skill

Spd, ha!

Luck is already an improvement, so worrying about getting 18 is silly.

Def is 208 points down, so tying is impossible but it only takes 118 or 24 boosts to pull off one less.

Res is 240 points down, again tying is impossible but 150 would be one down.

So 33 boosts for hp (15 boosts for -1)

25 boosts for str (7 boosts for -1)

24 boosts for -1 def (6 boosts for -2)

30 boosts for -1 res (12 boosts for -2)

19x2x2 = 76 boosts total (no stat can take more than 38).

hp + str makes 58, leaving just 18, meaning tie hp, str, -2 def, -2 res is possible.

Or we could say that his 60% str growth is mostrous anyway and dump more boosts into def and just 7 into str.

Unfortunately, res can't be boosted in conjunction with any of hp/str/def, so I'm giving up on that and he's going to start with 6 res.

Anyway:

So, 33 out of 38 levels need to get hp, meaning the enemies he attacks and a hp band for lots. He'll probably drop to 16 luck if he fights things like fighters and warriors, but dropping to 16 luck is no big deal really and fighting Axe Knights/Bandits/Berserkers/Fighters/Warriors for levels while holding the fighter band would mean:

12 levels with fighter band

13 levels fighting Axe Knights/etc.

Will pull off str and give 125 points towards hp.

At this point, he still needs hp, and def.

Soldier band for another 7 levels means 35 points for hp and 35 for def.

Also, fighting Soldiers, Halberdiers, Lance Knights gives hp and def.

So it's pretty easy to make a Sothe with:

35 hp, 18 str, 2 mag, 20 skl, 20 spd, 16 lck, 12 def, 6 res.

Or -2 mag, +1 lck, -2 def, -3 res

(mag drops to 2 from 3 because of all the minuses it gets while fighting enemies during levels, same with luck going from 17 to 16.)

Or you can make:

35 hp, 17 str, 2 mag, 20 skl, 20 spd, 16 lck, 13 def, 6 res.

Or -1 str, -2 mag, +1 lck, -1 def, -3 res

Def can't reach 14, since it takes 42 boosts and he can only give 38 to a single stat.

Anyway, hp can drop as well, but since his hp growth kinda sucks and his str growth is overkill, I don't see the point.

So from his bases Sothe is looking at

either: -2 mag, +1 lck, -2 def, -3 res

Or -1 str, -2 mag, +1 lck, -1 def, -3 res

Do either of those actually push him down very far? Probably below Gatrie, but if we accept Vanilla Sothe as above Mia, then surely (T) Sothe > (V) Zihark still holds true. Not sure about (T) Sothe > (T) Zihark, though.

(T) Sothe isn't that bad if you are willing to pay attention in PoR. I'm not sure how possible it is to do all this, though. Now, he's only using 64 out of 76 boosts, currently, so you could have 6 levels in the base with bands where he doesn't get the boosts to two stats from enemies, and the other 13 levels out on the field while fighting the correct enemies, be they fighter/warrior/axe knight/bandit/berserker or soldier/halberdier/lance knight, depending on what he's trying to boost.

13 x 4 + 6 x 2 = 64.

Also, if you are only raising 6 to 10 units to 20/20 it's not that bad for him to specifically need either the fighter band or the soldier band for every level.

Also, Bandit/Berserker levels can only account for 6 levels out of the 13 levels on the field otherwise res drops to 5. Of course, given how limited those types of enemies are, it's probably a minor problem compared to only fighting fighter/warrior/axe kinght/bandit/berserker/soldier/halberdier/lance knight when near a level and nothing else.

Err, checked the math, 19 boosts max for hp from bands so he needs 14 from enemies. So a max of 5 levels in the base and a min of 14 in the field, all of which have to involve +hp (which is fine with the enemies I listed). Oh, and you can add Red Dragons to the lists of eligible enemies for +(hp&def). Not sure Sothe can actually damage red dragons in PoR, though, so he'd need to be at 99 exp and enter a battle (and live).

Edited October 7, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

...since when was that decided? A PoR transfer from any mode works for any mode of RD, provided you got the easy mode glitched fixed.

Really? Oh, I thought you had to transfer files from the same playthrough. Nevermind.

[nflchamp]

...since when was that decided? A PoR transfer from any mode works for any mode of RD, provided you got the easy mode glitched fixed.

Really? Oh, I thought you had to transfer files from the same playthrough. Nevermind.

Does it even matter? We'll have to compare transfer units to both regular units and transfer units, since we can't tell which transfers will be in play in any given playthrough. As long as Transfer whoever is better than non-transfer whoever, they'll be above them. If transfer whoever is worse than non-transfer whoever, they'll be below them. Same for any other case.

No one's contributions are going to really change depending on what other characters got transfers.

[grandjackal]

Issue on Sothe PoR, wouldn't Sothe's Blossom allow him to get more points to give him greater boosts due to slower leveling speed? How does Blossom work in Fixed mode? Like, if he could manage, is it possible to actually get +2 stat ups for him?

[Florete]

Issue on Sothe PoR, wouldn't Sothe's Blossom allow him to get more points to give him greater boosts due to slower leveling speed? How does Blossom work in Fixed mode? Like, if he could manage, is it possible to actually get +2 stat ups for him?

Um...Yeah, you probably ought to look into that first. Narga was using his Blossom'd growths.

[Narga_Rocks]

Issue on Sothe PoR, wouldn't Sothe's Blossom allow him to get more points to give him greater boosts due to slower leveling speed? How does Blossom work in Fixed mode? Like, if he could manage, is it possible to actually get +2 stat ups for him?

Um...Yeah, you probably ought to look into that first. Narga was using his Blossom'd growths.

If it wasn't for his PoR speed cap I'd say the small loses would be worth it. I mean, seriously, 25 speed? An extra 11 avo thanks to the luck boost as well? And that auto-A?

25 x 2 + 16 + 15 = 81 avo in part 1.

Then he doubles 20 AS cats and at level 3 probably doubles the 22 AS cats as well. And he never stops doubling myrms or bosses in part 1.

IS really loves screwing over some of their characters. I guess they are just making up for Levin's son (provided it is Arthur or Sety) and Yuria. Or it's balance for Ike and Mia and the Royals and Haar.

And I was so mad at that boss in chapter 19 that has 20 speed and a sonic sword. Stupid IS not letting Volke promote just one chapter earlier.

[Progenitus]

How much are we weighing the BK's 1-9 performance?

I find 1-9 to be more of a storyline event than anything.

For example, say we have a unit. And he's the only unit in a given chapter (like Ike in Fe9 prologue). So we must use him to complete the game. It would be silly to put the unit in top tier because not using him means we can't beat the game.

As you add more units, you'll have more people to choose from, and thus you'll generally end up picking the units who are innately superior (e.g. Ike in 3-P vs the rest of the GMs), which is how we get to separate the top tiers from the bottom tiers, etc.

In a similar vein, no one cares if Ike has to kill Ashera/BK, or lords have to seize, etc. It's a storyline event. Or if they do care, it's relegated to being a tiebreaker at best.

I generally tend to ignore things where you're FORCED to use the unit to complete the game. BK in 1-9 feels a lot like that, due to Micaiah getting ORKO'd by basically everything, and I doubt that even a max stat Micaiah could take on 1-9 alone without a bit of luck (30 HP/10 def gets 2HKO'd by everything, and only 90 avoid in a thicket. Nevermind she's like 5-8 points away from capping HP/spd/def and liek 15 away from lck at level 20, which isn't even a level she's likely to reach). It's a different case from, say, BK in 1-E where you have plenty of units to choose from, and you take the BK along because he's so much better than a vast majority of the team, versus BK in 1-9 because you literally have no other options.

[Dat Nick]

Edward>BK if we're going to tier the BK. Because Edward is every bit as necessary to beat the game as BK.

1-P. The boss will one shot Micaiah, and he isn't afraid to move. So if Edward didn't exist, you'd never beat the game.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Interceptor]

So, does anyone else want to completely ignore that we already have guidelines for Seize-like "can't beat the game without this unit" mechanics? Go ahead, bitch, moan, complain, whatever, get it out of your system. The rest of us will just wait here, arms crossed, 'till you figure out this issue was settled years ago.

[nflchamp]

So, does anyone else want to completely ignore that we already have guidelines for Seize-like "can't beat the game without this unit" mechanics? Go ahead, bitch, moan, complain, whatever, get it out of your system. The rest of us will just wait here, arms crossed, 'till you figure out this issue was settled years ago.

Don't blame smash. The only people who responded to the 1-9 BK comment were you and Narga, and we all know smash is ignoring the two of you.

[Dat Nick]

Yes I know it's fun to lol at Smash but that offers no explanation for the Edward in 1P thing.

Oh, and beating C1 in 10 turns is pretty damn hard without Nolan, and GASP Edward, even Leo to an extent. So all three of the DB needs to move up really, as they are required to beat the game and by this logic should be higher. If just 1-9 counts for that much (you have enough overkill rapes in 1-10 anyway so his epic stands out less there) is upper middle, just imagine how much Edward's TWO chapters of being required helps.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Interceptor]

[...] that offers no explanation for the Edward in 1P thing.

You mean other than that's exactly what it explains? We disregard situations where a unit is literally necessary for beating the game.

[Dat Nick]

We disregard situations where a unit is literally necessary for beating the game.

uh

then why is the BK tiered, let alone in Upper middle? For his ONE chapter of being really epic when in this same chapter we have a ton of other kind of epic units anyway plus LolNailah, making his utility far less needed?