OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

Alright, list has been edited. Look it over and approve.

Now we wait.

[Radiant Dragon]

Just curious, but is there anything Sothe's thief utility gets us besides Beastfoe, some Master Seals, the Brave Bow, Matrona and the Desert treasures? I'm not trying to say he shouldn't get much credit, since these items (Except Matrona and maybe the Brave Bow, since Shinon and Rolf have Silencers and Leonardo has his Prf weapon. Might be nice for Astrid, I suppose.) are all pretty useful, but I can't think of anything else.

Edit: Also, are Volke and Stefan's better Speed and Critical really worth a whole tier difference over Renning?

Edited May 11, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Florete]

Just curious, but is there anything of not Sothe's thief utility gets us besides Beastfoe, some Master Seals, the Brave Bow, Matrona and the Desert treasures? I'm not trying to say he shouldn't get much credit, since these items (Except Matrona and maybe the Brave Bow, since Shinon and Rolf have Silencers and Leonardo has his Prf weapon. Might be nice for Astrid, I suppose.) are all pretty useful, but I can't think of anything else.

He'll likely be responsible for a good number of the Chest items in part 1, including Energy Drop, Thani, 3k Gold, Seraph Robe, Speedwing, etc.

Edit: Also, are Volke and Stefan's better Speed and Critical really worth a whole tier difference over Renning?

Probably not. Such has been brought into question recently.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Shadow Mir]

Alright, list has been edited. Look it over and approve.

Now we wait.

Why is Transfer Brom still not combined with his normal version? Am I missing something?

[Radiant Dragon]

He'll likely be responsible for a good number of the Chest items in part 1, including Energy Drop, Thani, 3k Gold, Seraph Robe, Speedwing, etc.

True enough, although the Speedwings and Vantage can easily be gotten by a unit with a Chest Key (maybe Volug, Vika or an Ilyana that's ferrying Celerity to the GMs).

I didn't know Sothe got us Thani, though. Doesn't he have to clear out the top quickly to clear a path for Laura and get the Energy Drop?

[Florete]

Why is Transfer Brom still not combined with his normal version? Am I missing something?

Mid tier hasn't had a lot of examining lately. Just another area that may need cleaning up.

True enough, although the Speedwings and Vantage can easily be gotten by a unit with a Chest Key (maybe Volug, Vika or an Ilyana that's ferrying Celerity to the GMs).

I didn't know Sothe got us Thani, though. Doesn't he have to clear out the top quickly to clear a path for Laura and get the Energy Drop?

Of course. I was basically listing off the items we want to acquire but we don't have enough Chest Keys to get everything, and that's where Sothe comes in.

Yeah, Thani likely wouldn't be on that list now that I think of it. Again, I was listing off good Chest items, Thani being one of them.

[Radiant Dragon]

Of course. I was basically listing off the items we want to acquire but we don't have enough Chest Keys to get everything, and that's where Sothe comes in.

Yeah, Thani likely wouldn't be on that list now that I think of it. Again, I was listing off good Chest items, Thani being one of them.

Makes sense. I usually use Sothe as the one to pilfer everything, which leaves me with a bunch (2 or 3) Chest Keys at the end of Part One I don't know what to do with, which is why I immediately thought we had an excess of Chest Keys.

[Dark Sage]

If it makes you feel better I was half-thinking after the first post since it was starting to get late. The first post alone looked kind of bland with my wording (for some reason I make things with word definitions up when I'm tired). Besides, I'm a Tyrant. I can accept a little Rage Fox here and there.

Regardless, Sothe's contributions are good enough for Top Tier if we combine more than just his combat. I think his Thief properties also help make the difference here. The problem is what the hell to do with Volug still since I don't think Volug loses by an entire tier either, but I can't even suggest anything since I've never seriously used him (God now I feel like Snowy).

@Bold: Trust me Colonel, you're already better miles ahead better than Snowy when it comes to Volug since you're at considering him into Top Tier.

Speaking of which, I also support Sothe moving to Top Tier for all the reasons that've been stated (Excellent Part 1, passable Part 3, thief utility and movement traits, forged knives). And I hate Sothe.

[Anouleth]

Why is Transfer Brom still not combined with his normal version? Am I missing something?

Forget that. Brom just needs to drop like the sluggish rock that he is.

Brom < Edward.

Both Brom and Edward have a 'clutch' chapter where they are one of the 2 or 3 units at your disposal, and thus must be used to complete the chapter. However, there is a small distinction in that while Edward is clearly superior to Micaiah in 1-P, the difference between Brom and Nephenee is not so obvious due to her superior offense against his superior durability.

However, there is another key distinction. Edward will continue to be useful in later chapters, in at least 1-1 and 1-2, and has some potential to be useful even later on in the game as a serious long-term unit. Brom has no light at the tunnel. He is almost immediately outclassed by the arrival of Lethe, Mordecai, Lucia, and Nealuchi, and Nephenee will develop a lead on him in Part 2. He will also generally be last billing for Leanne's attention. All of these characters have significant offensive advantages, and some of them are also durable enough that Brom's high durability is not a significant advantage. They all also move further. Once Part 3 arrives, Brom is essentially obsolete. He is stuck in a flawed class with crap bases and a horrible growth spread. Even characters like Soren can eventually be induced to double and have some use. Brom cannot. He has a useless 22 speed cap, and what's more, it takes him forever to reach it.

Edward has a similar starting chapter, but is actually useful in later chapters. Brom is not.

[Interceptor]

Better watch out Colonel, there's a new Tyrant in town.

Alright, list has been edited. Look it over and approve.

Sothe does not belong in Top, not even the newly-expanded one with its discounted cover charge.

I realize that saying this has no impact on the tiering, as you do whatever you feel like in the end. But after this mockery of a discussion, where you inflated the importance of things that agreed with your end-game and minimized the factors injurious to it, I thought it worth at least reminding the thread that there are people who object to Sothe in Top for good reason, despite your furious attempts to pretend that they don't exist and/or matter.

Also, keep in mind the main reason I keep arguing about "unique qualities" is because this is how Interceptor interpreted a Top Tier unit (with a bonus of being good out of the box). At least something to that extent.

Just to be clear, that's nothing but my opinion. I think that Top/High provides a useful firebreak between units that are more or less unequivocally exceptional, and those that are flawed and/or have some significant opportunity costs to consider.

I find it incredibly odd that the same train of logic that got Mia into high tier (plow her with highly contested resources because she uses them well) is not getting Titania into top tier. Of course, Interceptor has a convenient reason for that; that is, he has some arbitrary criterion that prevents units who require resources from entering top tier, yet he makes an exception for Haar. And then, when confronted with the fact that an unwinged Titania still dominates the game, which is his reason for why Haar is top tier, he chooses to attack my playthrough instead of actually contesting that point. Furthermore, the arguments of Ike not being a great unit have only been addressed with comments along the lines of "go make your own maximum efficiency tier list." If anything, the simple fact that Titania can help us exceed our expectations of efficiency on this tier list should put her into top tier.

If I ever attacked your playthrough, you would know, I assure thee of it. I don't have a problem with your run, which was very impressive on its own merits. What I have an issue with, are the conclusions that you draw from it, with regard to this tier list. Now, you see no difference between those two things, which is sad and might require therapy, but it's important to be clear here, at least for those here who aren't hyper-defensive about our work.

I consider the Haar flight exception to be nothing but common sense, seeing as how we don't even have someone who can "sort of" fly, like we do for various things Titania is capable of doing. With respect to Titania specifically, my objection to her placement in Top comes down to the idea that I think that her best performance is being afforded the cost of her base parameters. In other words, the stat-boostered, BEXP abused, world-destroying Titania is being ranked as if she had the resource footprint of the niche Titania that doubles little, Hammertimes much, and fades late into the game.

Reasonable people can disagree about the best way to use Titania, but that discussion hasn't actually happened yet.

On a different subject: I haven't the time to pick apart what has been said elsewhere, but I think it's worth pointing out that attributing costs to forges doesn't really make much sense. They are not a scarce enough resource. What you can do with the gold that you don't spend on forges for people, has hardly any effect on the game at all. There is more than enough gold to provide for ample forges for people, as well as buying vital things like Physic staves etc. So while Sothe doesn't belong in Top, it's not because of the cost of his forged knives, since even though they are expensive, we can afford them easily without hurting anyone else.

smash once made a post in this thread where he went chapter by chapter and listed various things that you could buy to make forges unaffordable, and I wish I had saved the link, since the things he was forced to buy were so nakedly useless for efficient play that it ended up proving the opposite of the point he wanted to make in the first place.

[Junkhead]

And Dheginsea doesn't deserve to be in Epic. The guy doesn't move.

Then 3-13 Archer, the suicidal maniac takes forever to show his suicidal "epicness". By the time he does Ike will be dead on the floor or something.

I can tolerate Zelgius up there, for beating Skrimir with a freaking Iron sword.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Soul

[Florete]

Sothe does not belong in Top, not even the newly-expanded one with its discounted cover charge.

I realize that saying this has no impact on the tiering, as you do whatever you feel like in the end. But after this mockery of a discussion, where you inflated the importance of things that agreed with your end-game and minimized the factors injurious to it, I thought it worth at least reminding the thread that there are people who object to Sothe in Top for good reason, despite your furious attempts to pretend that they don't exist and/or matter.

Unfortunately, Sothe cannot be both in Top and out of Top. It's got to be one way or the other. Someone is not going to have it the way they want it. Deal with it.

[Interceptor]

Unfortunately, Sothe cannot be both in Top and out of Top. It's got to be one way or the other. Someone is not going to have it the way they want it. Deal with it.

As if the issue was about the logistics of placement, or of people getting what they want. Do think of this solider as someone who bites on feints like a ferret a chasing shiny object?

If you ask for your changes to be looked over, don't be surprised when someone does exactly that. You might even have to "deal with" the fact that someone disagrees with you, or questions your impartiality.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Interceptor

[Florete]

As if the issue was about the logistics of placement, or of people getting what they want. Do think of this solider as someone who bites on feints like a ferret a chasing shiny object?

If you ask for your changes to be looked over, don't be surprised when someone does exactly that. You might even have to "deal with" the fact that someone disagrees with you, or questions your impartiality.

I've had to deal with people disagreeing with this list for over two years. And guess what? If I hadn't made these changes, there'd just be a different group of people disagreeing. So what makes you so special? Oh, I get it, your ability to attack me by saying I just ignore the people who disagree and pretend they don't exist. Real mature, Interceptor.

And for the record, I do ignore you whenever you talk about Sothe. I've learned that nothing you say regarding him can be taken seriously.

In the end, if Sothe really doesn't deserve Top, then I'm sure he'll be dropping again in time as long as this topic is active.

[Zkirsche]

What I personally don't understand is why Sothe jumped over Volug when Volug is quite obviously better for when they both are around but actually stays good for much longer and an earth support is always helpful to boot. The main issue I guess woukd be 1-2 range, but surely winning everything else is superior?

[Interceptor]

In the end, if Sothe really doesn't deserve Top, then I'm sure he'll be dropping again in time as long as this topic is active.

Sothe's placement isn't really an issue, it's just one possible permutation of an ordered list of names. The value of the tier list is the discussion it generates, to the extent that there is actually back and forth.

I've had to deal with people disagreeing with this list for over two years. And guess what? If I hadn't made these changes, there'd just be a different group of people disagreeing. So what makes you so special? Oh, I get it, your ability to attack me by saying I just ignore the people who disagree and pretend they don't exist. Real mature, Interceptor.

And for the record, I do ignore you whenever you talk about Sothe. I've learned that nothing you say regarding him can be taken seriously.

You complain about being criticized for ignoring people who disagree, and then -- with no apparent sense of irony -- proudly wear on your sleeve the fact that you do exactly that, immediately after giving yours truly a bite-sized lecture on maturity. Well, your inconsistency is no business of mine. Just know that, while I appreciate the heartfelt concern that must have spawned your unsolicited advice, I've been "dealing with" petulance since before you knew what this sentence means.

I expect that you will stick your fingers in your ears and hum nursery rhymes, I will lampoon your biased behavior, and we'll see which of us tires of it first.

[incognit0]

Yeah I don't agree with Sothe > Volug. Sothe does have significant contributions in 1-3 and 1-4, and beats Volug in 1-8, but in 1-E and 1-7 Volug contributes more. Then you need to factor in how hard Volug can own Sothe in part three (likely being your other main fighter besides Nolan/Jill), plus the fact that Volug can make significant contributions in part 4 (specifically 4-3 where he can move through the desert) where even RFOF admitted that Sothe's utility is close to zero.

[Florete]

What I personally don't understand is why Sothe jumped over Volug when Volug is quite obviously better for when they both are around but actually stays good for much longer and an earth support is always helpful to boot. The main issue I guess woukd be 1-2 range, but surely winning everything else is superior?

I guess that is still to be decided. I jumped him over Volug because people seemed to still be skeptical about Volug in Top but wanted Sothe in Top.

You complain about being criticized for ignoring people who disagree, and then -- with no apparent sense of irony -- proudly wear on your sleeve the fact that you do exactly that, immediately after giving yours truly a bite-sized lecture on maturity. Well, your inconsistency is no business of mine. Just know that, while I appreciate the heartfelt concern that must have spawned your unsolicited advice, I've been "dealing with" petulance since before you knew what this sentence means.

I expect that you will stick your fingers in your ears and hum nursery rhymes, I will lampoon your biased behavior, and we'll see which of us tires of it first.

I never denied ignoring anyone. I just pointed out that that is, apparently, your only defense. And hey, it's true. What choice do I have? If I didn't "ignore" people the list would never change because there would always be someone who disagrees. You, especially, never move. If that's all you have in response, you might as well save yourself the time and do something more useful. If it leaves me to be as mature as you, okay then.

[Zkirsche]

I jumped him over Volug because people seemed to still be skeptical about Volug in Top but wanted Sothe in Top.

I thought one of the reasons Sothe was going up was that they should be in teh same tier, I did not see any arguments calling for Sothe > Volug, and as much as I hate it when matters are agreed upon but never acted upon, changing stuff without discussion is just as illogical.

[Florete]

True, but what about Titania? She jumped a good few places as well.

[Interceptor]

I never denied ignoring anyone. I just pointed out that that is, apparently, your only defense. And hey, it's true.

Nobody accused you of denying it, I just pointed out that your attempt to take the moral high ground resulted in your stepping knee-deep into a mud puddle and falling flat on your face.

What choice do I have? If I didn't "ignore" people the list would never change because there would always be someone who disagrees.

I am a bit taken aback that the steward of the FE10 tier list seems to think that tiering requires unanimous consent, and that the impossibility of perfect agreement requires ignoring people.

You, especially, never move.

Except when I do, which has happened dozens of times in this thread on issues both great and small, a fact that's fatal to your assertion. One wonders why you even bother to claim something that's so obviously wrong.

[Florete]

Nobody accused you of denying it, I just pointed out that your attempt to take the moral high ground resulted in your stepping knee-deep into a mud puddle and falling flat on your face.

I did not fall on my face.

I am a bit taken aback that the steward of the FE10 tier list seems to think that tiering requires unanimous consent, and that the impossibility of perfect agreement requires ignoring people.

...Huh?

First I think tiering requires unanimous consent, then I ignore people. Which one do you think I am doing?

Also allow me to say that I do not see it as "ignoring" anyone (except you on Sothe). I merely used that term because you said so first. I take everyone into account, but in the end not everyone will agree. You seem to see it as "ignoring," I see it as "Sorry, you lose this one."

Except when I do, which has happened dozens of times in this thread on issues both great and small, a fact that's fatal to your assertion. One wonders why you even bother to claim something that's so obviously wrong.

Oh, really? Please refresh my memory on these, because I don't happen to recall you budging an inch on any "great" matters and I couldn't care less about small ones. You have been, as far as I recall, the most stubborn person in this tier list, possibly barring smash.

[Zkirsche]

True, but what about Titania? She jumped a good few places as well.

Her rise was well discussed and agreed upon. I don't even think there was one major comparison between Volug and Sothe.

[Florete]

Put Sothe back under Volug for the time being, but it isn't set in stone until we get a closer comparison.

[dondon151]

Yeah I don't agree with Sothe > Volug. Sothe does have significant contributions in 1-3 and 1-4, and beats Volug in 1-8, but in 1-E and 1-7 Volug contributes more. Then you need to factor in how hard Volug can own Sothe in part three (likely being your other main fighter besides Nolan/Jill), plus the fact that Volug can make significant contributions in part 4 (specifically 4-3 where he can move through the desert) where even RFOF admitted that Sothe's utility is close to zero.

I can't really say that Volug contributes more on 1-7, because Sothe is kind of forced to go recruit the LEA (of which Muarim at least does a pretty decent job saving turns himself because he wrecks the boss). We're delving into slippery slope territory here, but I just want to point out that Sothe is actually doing something here that aids completion of the chapter and isn't like running off into a group of enemies and taking the EXP for himself or something. 1-E is mostly Volug's business, though.

The other thing that I'm concerned about is that Volug is very good to have around, but he's not ever really excellent due mostly to laguz flaws. A good portion of his part 1 ends up being self-improvement in the form of fighting a lot of enemies to gain strike WEXP. He takes 2 turns to get going in 3-6 and otherwise does pretty well, but consider that Sothe can do things starting turn 1 and Nolan/Jill can already do quite a bit in that timeframe. He likewise requires a startup period in 3-12, which can be completed very quickly with Nolan/Jill. He can kill Ike pretty reliably in 3-13, but that requires at least 4 turns whereas other strats do the same thing in 2-3 turns.

In part 4, he lacks 2-range, which already puts him at a disadvantage compared to a lot of beorcs, even if his offense is really good.

In a world where Volug exists on his own (like in my 0% growths playthrough), he would probably be worthy of top tier. But right now, he just isn't a dominating force like Sothe is at any point in the game, and in absolute terms he probably doesn't save as many turns as Sothe does in general.