OMG it's a tier list

[Baldrick]

@Jack Frost: I'm not really qualified to theorycraft RD, but I'm like 99% sure Nolan and likely some others would do just as well combat-wise given the same amount of resources Jill gets. The only reason she's singled out is because she combines 1-2 range with flight, making her adept at shaving turns off. If we do not care about turns beyond meeting the BEXP thresholds, there's no justification for putting her in top tier.

As far as I can tell, there's simply no market for more perfectionist tier lists. The capacity for discussion falls as knowledge increases, and more to the point, people eventually get bored and new blood isn't coming in. There has been a movement towards tiering attractive to novices, and part of that is rejecting arguments that aren't so intuitive. Most tier listers are more interested in engaging debates rather than "solving" the game through a logical yet arbitrary standard. At least, that's my view of it.

@snowy: what do you think of my standard? It won't allow units who haven't already proved themselves to escape to the bench.

@banzai: i agree it's bizarre. If I were to make a tier list he'd be the biggest mover (admittedly, i believe most of the other p4 and other low-availability units are reasonably placed in this list)

[shadykid]

As far as I can tell, there's simply no market for more perfectionist tier lists. The capacity for discussion falls as knowledge increases, and more to the point, people eventually get bored and new blood isn't coming in. There has been a movement towards tiering attractive to novices, and part of that is rejecting arguments that aren't so intuitive. Most tier listers are more interested in engaging debates rather than "solving" the game through a logical yet arbitrary standard. At least, that's my view of it.

people who don't like tier lists aren't going to like them if you make it "more accessible", because they don't actually care about who's the best/they just complain that their favorite character isn't top tier

[-Cynthia-]

Nolan doesn't do quite as well because he doesn't double as easily as Jill. As pointed out before, 20/9 for Nolan to double Tigers, 20/5 for Jill. This Spd difference also allows Jill to double more 3-12 enemies and have better offense against Ike in 3-13. What Nolan probably wants is a Speedwing, but I would argue that the Speedwing is a much more hotly contested stat booster than the Seraph Robe.

Zihark and Sothe (and Edward I guess?) get 2HKO'd by Tigers with or without stat boosters. Volug doesn't really benefit from more HP, I guess he might be some competition for the Dracoshield or Energy Drop. The other DB units have too many issues to be more than chip in Part 3, it's too inefficient to get someone like Aran or Leonardo going and the payoff isn't very good.

[Baldrick]

I've noticed a lot of people describe their style as 'casual efficiency': not going full steam but not wasting time either. As a general rule, they wouldn't be interested in an efficiency tier list.

Not to mention newbies who might be put off if they have to read hundreds of pages to keep up.

I don't know how it will go but I don't appreciate the implication you're either interested in strict efficiency or completely superficial. :/

[Redwall]

That's not a penalty, that's just one unit being better than another.

Of course that's a penalty--just because it is a natural set of consequences doesn't preclude it from being a penalty. </semantics>

It's obvious enough after just using Caeda to see that forging some MT on her Wing Spear will be well worth the investment. You don't need foresight, you just need to see that the game throws a lot of mounts and armors at you.

Obvious to whom? The Wing Spear forge certainly wasn't obvious to me when I first played H5--nonetheless, I still would have supported putting her at the top of top if someone had told me how much a forge would pay off. Let's not forget that obvious things like feeding Marcus boss kills are only obvious now because of a good deal of collective experience and thinking.

What's the point of continuing to do [tier lists] the way they were? [...] In my opinion, taking an approach with a wider scope is a good place to start. Make tier positions stand on their own.

Because the older way of doing things is less arbitrary:

Tier debating is obviously full of things that cannot be quantified to specificity, like the worth of availability [...] etc. All of that stuff is a mess in any kind of tier list, but the inability to nail down precise specifics is not fatal because there is an over-arching goal that all of those things tie into, like S-ranking or minimizing turn counts. [...] This is the first kind of subjectivity.

The second kind of subjectivity is the definitional sort, that's not directly anchored to the ranking goal. Or in other words, the arguments that are conducted purely with dueling opinions, the ones leave an aftertaste of bullshit in your mouth. See: any argument about [...] whether <ill-defined imaginary player> would do <XYZ>, or the "likelihood" of some event that is not the result of the RNG.

The non-perfect player guideline [that is qualitatively no different from what you, RFoF, are now proposing] in this list is a subjective factor of the second kind, masquerading as one of the first. It has elements that can be adjudicated in terms of the tier list goals in at least some minimal fashion [...] But it also has elements where you just have a potential clash of opinions on the definition of something, with no obvious way to resolve it.

[XeKr]

Re: What Jill needs (actual FE discussion):

20/1 Jill usually needs around +20 effective Hp (typically something like +14 Hp, +2 Def) through boosters or transfers to barely be 4hko'd by the hard hitting stuff in 3-6, most (like 80% or something) of the time. Iirc she also needs +2 Spd to reliably double Tigers to orko with Beastfoe. This (apparently) lets her snowball for the rest of the game. Regardless of the precise numbers, I think Jill is way better than her current position even if not using the optimal resource allocation for the optimal turncounts. Moreover, relative to her competition, she is the only flier, is not a Laguz, and has the best Spd/Def combination of the relevant cast. I’m fairly certain this is near consensus by now; this was even mentioned by some earlier posts, I’m just drawing attention back to it. I’d also put Jill (T) in top and Jill (N) in high, at least.

Btw I agree with dropping Volug as well.

Re: philosophy of resource allocation

Yet another tiering discussion derailing to philosophy. I wonder why that is…

Efficiency (imo) works as a framework because it encourages optimization and sometimes evokes elegance in planning, which strategists (FE is a strategy game, right?) can appreciate. It inherently imposes constraints on many things, notably (in this case) resource allocation. One can introduce additional subjective/arbitrary factors like “intuitiveness” to address stuff like resource allocation, but personally, I don’t see the point. It’s messy, and efficiency is already sufficient.

There are admittedly valid arguments to the contrary (many have been offered recently in this and other topics). I’m just offering a reason why appealing to the “average/common/casual/basic knowledge/intuitive” player is perhaps incompatible with the present tiering logic. Whereas any tiering standard is certainly possible to use to rank characters, it still at least should remain logically self-consistent. One may find that difficult in an “intuition-based” list. (in fact, is that not mostly what sparked the explosion of posts?)

Vagueness for the sake of discussion is whatever. Deliberate inconsistencies under the dishonest pretense of rational arguments and “helping” novices is just silly, and more problematic.

(okay, I admit I’m curious. Do people actually believe there to be an audience for a “novice” tier list, particularly for 5+ year old games? All recent expeditions, even for more recent games, have suggested otherwise. Note that many of us efficiency/LTC people did not post much at all in the recent FE13 list and it still died quickly.)

Don’t let me stop you though. >_> I like this kind of excited discussion. To read, if nothing else.

Edited October 6, 2013 by XeKr

[Dark Sage]

@Jack Frost: I'm not really qualified to theorycraft RD, but I'm like 99% sure Nolan and likely some others would do just as well combat-wise given the same amount of resources Jill gets. The only reason she's singled out is because she combines 1-2 range with flight, making her adept at shaving turns off. If we do not care about turns beyond meeting the BEXP thresholds, there's no justification for putting her in top tier.

@bolded: precisely! This tier list has always rewarded all these qualities and therefore, since Jill fulfills all three with great effect, she should be very high up. We have always tiered beyond the BEXP thresholds, although somewhat vaguely tbf. However if we are no longer doing so, then this list needs to change a lot to make it logically consistent.

I honestly don't know what RFoF is even tiering for anymore. Apparently low turn counts are good but they can't be too low? What's the limit? It just seems arbitrary and confusing, especially for new people.

As far as I can tell, there's simply no market for more perfectionist tier lists. The capacity for discussion falls as knowledge increases, and more to the point, people eventually get bored and new blood isn't coming in. There has been a movement towards tiering attractive to novices, and part of that is rejecting arguments that aren't so intuitive. Most tier listers are more interested in engaging debates rather than "solving" the game through a logical yet arbitrary standard. At least, that's my view of it.

The reasons why tiering is dead are numerous. Some are just not interested in debating anymore (Interceptor, Narga), some hate the members of the tiering community (Paperblade, smash) and often for good reason, and some just do not give a fuck (most people). Trying to appeal to new blood is mostly a fool's errand; most of the people who don't care aren't going to care regardless of what you do simply because they aren't interested in tiering period. In an attempt to make things appeal more to a very small niche, you risk alienating the few people you do have left.

Now I don't particularly care to argue pure LTC lists, which is why I stay out of Jushiro's tiers for example. But it's one thing to make everything pure LTC and another to make things a mess of inconsistency.

[dondon151]

It doesn't need to be +6 (maybe it does for the best turn counts, but not for the weapon to function well). It's obvious enough after just using Caeda to see that forging some MT on her Wing Spear will be well worth the investment. You don't need foresight, you just need to see that the game throws a lot of mounts and armors at you.

it is not even entirely obvious to players that forging MT on effective weaponry is worth the investment. it costs you upwards of 7000G per forge, and most people don't like to spend money even if they have a ton of it (or they can, like, forge marth's rapier, which is a waste of money). one can spend only a couple thousand G on iron forges that are modestly strong and have way more uses than an effective weapon. recall that it was not immediately obvious in FE11 that forging effective weapons was the single most gamebreaking mechanic in that game.

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: What's the point of continuing to do them the way they were? No one wants to anymore. Everyone who used to participate in them is gone or bored with them and you're much more likely to find people who hate the way they were done. If the tier list is gonna continue to exist at all, it needs to change. In my opinion, taking an approach with a wider scope is a good place to start. Make tier positions stand on their own.

welcome back to 2009, folks.

no tier position stands on its own. every tier position has to be argued to where it currently stands. there is nothing about tiering that is obvious.

but look. you've raised two problems here. one is that interest in tiering has been declining recently. the other is that tier positions are not obvious enough. how are these grievances reconcilable? a tier list in which the positions are obvious will naturally stifle activity. you can't have it both ways!

so your proposition, to me, seems to be this: let's discard our body of knowledge and start over again from the tiering dark ages, when people didn't care about playing the game faster. let's ban all of the veterans from participating in a tier list, because we know that their participation ultimately leads to its stagnation. let's ban all participants in the tier list from quoting arguments made by the veterans, because what the veterans say is far from obvious. let's force people to reinvent the wheel.

it could very well be that we as a community have outgrown the need for tier lists. the community will only get better at playing fire emblem, but never worse - this is a one-way street.

Edited October 6, 2013 by dondon151

[General Banzai]

(Note that many of us efficiency/LTC people did not post much at all in the recent FE13 list and it still died quickly.)

To be fair, it only died when it became clear that the person running the tier was simply applying maximized resource allocation to the tier, with the only thing making it "casual" being turn counts weren't relevant

it could very well be that we as a community have outgrown the need for tier lists. the community will only get better at playing fire emblem, but never worse - this is a one-way street.

This is 100% true

But a "casual" tier list shouldn't be made to "foster discussion", rather to provide a functional utilitarian use for new players

it's why in my original arguments about the need for a casual tier, I suggested that the ranking within each tier (high, mid, etc) shouldn't be a variable, rather than differences between whole tiers. This is actually to deliberately squash the need for discussion. There should be a full-standing, widely agreed-upon list that new players can look at at a glance and understand who will make their gameplaying experience the easiest

Edited October 6, 2013 by General Banzai

[BBM]

the community will only get better at playing fire emblem, but never worse - this is a one-way street.

No way, I was better at FE last year, because I used to actually play it.

[General Banzai]

No way, I was better at FE last year, because I used to actually play it.

the community is more than one person

[Espinosa]

If you look at certain fighting games, there's a definite decrease in reaction ability, creativity and other valuable assets as time goes by (watch Jang Iksu play Tekken Tag for example - way ahead of his time). Not sure how FE compares, because it's not the community itself that changes much but rather specific members. If they're tired of FE or are too busy to keep playing, there will be no movement up, and maybe nobody would notice the change anyway because people don't seem to have much trouble playing the same way they did 10 years ago (same with any other RPG series tbh).

[Redwall]

I think what dondon meant was that the collective knowledge base can't get "worse," not that peoples' decision-making skills won't degrade.

[Samias]

Moving away from tiering philosophy itself...

I think a case for Jill moving up despite wanting a lot of the DB boosters is that while the DBs are full of competent units for part 1, come part 3 a lot of who WAS good suddenly is not so hot. Volug, Zihark and Sothe go from competent to struggling between 1-E and 3-6, due to Volug's poor exp growth and gauge management needs, Zihark's poor durability and Sothe's bad caps and inability to promote. Tauroneo's mobility in the next few chapters is severely hindered, and we lose Nailah, Tormod, and Muarim in the transition as well. This means in part 1 you're going to have to train someone who is a growth unit who is also durable, and our top two picks are Nolan and Jill. Nolan is good, doesn't require as many resources and had better availability in the most crucial part 1 chapters, but Jill is the only flier on the team, has the bonus of not being weak to bows, and while she does need a seraph robe to help her bad HP base, she kind of snowballs in usefulness, especially if she has either paragon or beastfoe attached in 3-6. While vanilla Jill is probably not going to end up in top tier because arguably she needs a lot of extra boosters beyond the seraph robe (I disagree but I don't play strict LTC either), what is really stopping Jill (T) from reaching top tier? She basically gets a free energy drop, dracoshield, secret book and speedwing. A 13 strength, 17 speed and 13 def base is nothing to scoff at, even if Nolan gets a strength lead. I personally think Jill is able to get some self-improvement levels without an instant promotion in the 1-6-1 rout, as she can easily mop up all the pegasus knight reinforcements in the map's far corners. Assuming the pegasi roll 13 AS or lower and 24 HP (and they should iirc), Jill (T) will ORKO them with a plain hand axe at base and take a pittance of damage in return. In 1-6-2 she's probably going to be the Tauroneo taxi service, but that's also a point in her favour as unique utility. Optionally you might just choose her to rush up north with Volug to save Fiona's sorry butt but so long as Volug has resolve I don't think he really has trouble handling it himself. Afterwards, she can take one of the seals and then slap on Paragon. She misses 1-7 which would have been amazing for her, but her flight in 1-E allows to zoom up to the top of the ledges either helping herself or ferrying someone else. I think given the investment in part 1, she easily becomes a top tier unit by part 3 where the DB's quality dips immensely due to the sudden increase in enemy unit strength.

As for Volug's usefulness, he basically requires you to strip off Resolve from Tauroneo and possibly take the energy drop and Adept from Zihark, and if he doesn't see enough combat to get S strike in part 1 he's going to drop off hard in part 3. If we think Paragon and a bunch of boosters on Jill is unintuitive, using Volug effectively compared to Sothe requires you to know that you're going to strip off the freebie skills off of other units.

[PKL]

Now that I've thought more on it, I do see how Jill(T) is Top Tier even without her resources. I mean, 13 str 17 spd 15 def bases and that becomes 15 str 18 spd 17 def with an insta promotion. She also doesnt need to promote right away so she can get 1 or 2 levels in 1-6 for more stats. And there's definetely almost no competition with Jill's resources. The Robes aren't exactly contested, the Energy Drop could be put to use by Volug, but Jill flies and has potential to become one of our best units, while Volug can only really use it well shortterm. I guess it could be transferred over to the GMs for Oscar or someone with slight str issues but Jill can make use of it sooner than the other Energy Drop candidates. She only really faces compettion from Nolan for the Dracoshield early on. A Steel Axe forge and Beastfoe and those resources can allow her to be a beast in 3-6 (not 2HKO'd by strongest Tigers, OHKOs cats and doubles tigers and flies unlike Nolan) and all that laguz exp she will get there will help her get even stronger so that she can cut a turn in 3-12 by going down the Ravine after a boots and eventually resulting in Ike falling to her. The difference those transfers do for Jill is ridiculous. So, Jill(T) with boosters = almost Haar. Jill (T) with no boosters = really good unit anyway.

Edited October 6, 2013 by PKL

[shadykid]

Now that I've thought more on it, I do see how Jill(T) is Top Tier even without her resources. I mean, 13 str 17 spd 15 def bases and that becomes 15 str 18 spd 17 def with an insta promotion. She also doesnt need to promote right away so she can get 1 or 2 levels in 1-6 for more stats. And there's definetely almost no competition with Jill's resources. The Robes aren't exactly contested, the Energy Drop could be put to use by Volug, but Jill flies and has potential to become one of our best units, while Volug can only really use it well shortterm. I guess it could be transferred over to the GMs for Oscar or someone with slight str issues but Jill can make use of it sooner than the other Energy Drop candidates. She only really faces compettion from Nolan for the Dracoshield early on. A Steel Axe forge and Beastfoe and those resources can allow her to be a beast in 3-6 (not 2HKO'd by strongest Tigers, OHKOs cats and doubles tigers and flies unlike Nolan) and all that laguz exp she will get there will help her get even stronger so that she can cut a turn in 3-12 by going down the Ravine after a boots and eventually resulting in Ike falling to her. The difference those transfers do for Jill is ridiculous. So, Jill(T) with boosters = almost Haar. Jill (T) with no boosters = really good unit anyway.

no rant about a redhead dragon rider fetish, I am disappoint

[Florete]

(although on another note, ignoring strategic discoveries and innovations because "nobody likes it" is dumb and hypocritical. When did that reasoning stop us before? Everyone who hates the way they're done are still probably going to hate the way it's done and you're likely not going to attract back former tier debaters or people who haven't paid attention before. So basically all you'd be doing is just making the list inconsistent in the name of making it more appealing to people when the most likely result is not a single person is going to care or be attracted back).

I guess we'll just have to try and see, eh? Be a doomsayer all you want, but unless we give it a shot and play it by ear, we'll never know how things can turn out.

Hi people in this thread, be more civil thank you. No need for anyone (that includes you) to get pissy, it just derails this shit. Do I have anything to say about the whole argument(s)? No, but this is getting less about tier list and more about throwing arguments. Never tough I would be the one to ask people to be more civil...

This is not your post to make.

Of course that's a penalty--just because it is a natural set of consequences doesn't preclude it from being a penalty. </semantics>

Units are not penalized for another unit being better, and this is a pointless discussion.

Obvious to whom? The Wing Spear forge certainly wasn't obvious to me when I first played H5--nonetheless, I still would have supported putting her at the top of top if someone had told me how much a forge would pay off. Let's not forget that obvious things like feeding Marcus boss kills are only obvious now because of a good deal of collective experience and thinking.

It was obvious to me the first time I played H5 (which was my 2nd time playing the game at all). When I saw how many mounts/armors I was facing and the kind of damage the Wing Spear could do, it seemed only logical to give it more power.

@bolded: precisely! This tier list has always rewarded all these qualities and therefore, since Jill fulfills all three with great effect, she should be very high up.

I never said Jill shouldn't go up, in fact, I agreed with that. What was in discussion was how much.

I honestly don't know what RFoF is even tiering for anymore. Apparently low turn counts are good but they can't be too low? What's the limit? It just seems arbitrary and confusing, especially for new people.

Because this is a problem we've never had with tier lists before. Nope, definitely not something that was complained about and drew people away.

Now I don't particularly care to argue pure LTC lists, which is why I stay out of Jushiro's tiers for example. But it's one thing to make everything pure LTC and another to make things a mess of inconsistency.

There's a place for pure LTC, and that is fine. But that applies to a much more limited subset of players and isn't what I want to aim for.

it is not even entirely obvious to players that forging MT on effective weaponry is worth the investment. it costs you upwards of 7000G per forge, and most people don't like to spend money even if they have a ton of it (or they can, like, forge marth's rapier, which is a waste of money). one can spend only a couple thousand G on iron forges that are modestly strong and have way more uses than an effective weapon. recall that it was not immediately obvious in FE11 that forging effective weapons was the single most gamebreaking mechanic in that game.

Please, don't ask me to recall anything about knowledge in FE11, because all I ever had I got from just playing the game twice.

welcome back to 2009, folks.

You don't have to be here.

no tier position stands on its own. every tier position has to be argued to where it currently stands. there is nothing about tiering that is obvious.

I will not say you're wrong, but it can definitely be made more obvious. I'd rather have the tier list not need to be accompanied by a full character guide.

but look. you've raised two problems here. one is that interest in tiering has been declining recently. the other is that tier positions are not obvious enough. how are these grievances reconcilable? a tier list in which the positions are obvious will naturally stifle activity. you can't have it both ways!

By "declining recently," you mean "dead," right?

Hey, if we get to that point where all the tier list positions seem so natural that there's nothing left to discuss, is that really a bad thing?

so your proposition, to me, seems to be this: let's discard our body of knowledge and start over again from the tiering dark ages, when people didn't care about playing the game faster. let's ban all of the veterans from participating in a tier list, because we know that their participation ultimately leads to its stagnation. let's ban all participants in the tier list from quoting arguments made by the veterans, because what the veterans say is far from obvious. let's force people to reinvent the wheel.

Or we can be optimistic, try to work with something new, and see where it takes us. If you don't want to be a part of it, you don't have to click on the topic.

it could very well be that we as a community have outgrown the need for tier lists. the community will only get better at playing fire emblem, but never worse - this is a one-way street.

Of course this is true. So why is my idea necessarily "going back to the dark ages"? Making things simpler doesn't mean we can't keep our head on our shoulders and remember that certain things from the past, such as Jagens being bad and Ests being good, are just wrong. We're smarter, so things are inevitably going to be different. We just have to put our knowledge to use in a new way.

[PKL]

Is Ike(T) really better than Titania just because of the transfers? I fail to see how you could ever transfer move and hand axe forges. Sure, he has ragnell eventually, but before that happens, Titania has been owning so much...as for where Jill(T) should be...I think above Nailah for starters. Wait a second...why are Ulki Janaff higher than Jill?

[Dark Sage]

Wow really? If you don't like it, don't click it? That's like the laziest, most anti-intellectual argument you can present in favor of your proposal.

[General Banzai]

Another question, why's Bastian a whole tier below Renning

[Florete]

Is Ike(T) really better than Titania just because of the transfers? I fail to see how you could ever transfer move and hand axe forges. Sure, he has ragnell eventually, but before that happens, Titania has been owning so much...as for where Jill(T) should be...I think above Nailah for starters. Wait a second...why are Ulki Janaff higher than Jill?

I can see Titania > Ike(T), but I don't think it's so clear-cut. Ike(T) really comes out just smashing everything, while Titania needs a bit of help (Speedwing) and Hand Axe forges aren't even available until, like, 3-7?

Nailah, Ulki, and Janaff may stand to go down. Nailah is pretty high considering how long she has and Ulki and Janaff just have the problem of all the general annoyances of using Laguz.

Wow really? If you don't like it, don't click it? That's like the laziest, most anti-intellectual argument you can present in favor of your proposal.

Sometimes, life sucks. In those situations, I say the same thing: deal with it.

I can't please everyone. That's a fact of life. Adhering to the previous audience for tier lists no longer works, so I'm switching things up. If you can't be part of the new audience, I'm sorry, but you might just have to accept that it isn't for you.

Another question, why's Bastian a whole tier below Renning

What would make the gap close? Renning is a much more capable fighter and all Bastian really has on him is superfluous staff botting and 4-5 where he isn't even very good.

[General Banzai]

What would make the gap close? Renning is a much more capable fighter and all Bastian really has on him is superfluous staff botting and 4-5 where he isn't even very good.

Is 11 HP, 4 speed, and 7 def with -4 MT and -1 availability really worth an entire tier placement higher

Not to mention Bastian's ability to have bonkers offense in 4-F-3, which I mean isn't that much but the point is that these differences aren't really substantial enough for an entire tier difference

[Florete]

Is 11 HP, 4 speed, and 7 def with -4 MT and -1 availability really worth an entire tier placement higher

Not to mention Bastian's ability to have bonkers offense in 4-F-3, which I mean isn't that much but the point is that these differences aren't really substantial enough for an entire tier difference

5 Spd*

And 11 HP and 7 Def is pretty big. Plus you failed to mention Renning's +3 Move and Canto. And Hammer time in 4-E-1. And Wyrmslayer against those enemies Bastian is so good against.

Sounds like a tier gap to me.

[-Cynthia-]

The Speed is pretty big- Bastian can't double the enemies in 4-E(1) whereas Renning can double the sages/bishops and most of the generals (gets more generals with a Spd proc).

[Ema Skye]

Renning has bonkers offense too, with Hammers in 4-E-1 and Wyrmslayers in 4-E-3.

Not to mention Brave Sword/Axe to kill Auras better than Bastian does because Auras have 50 Res as opposed to 35 Def.

wrt to Titania vs Ike: Ike has the lead in 3-P and 3-1 imo. But if Titania can get the 1-F or 2-3 speedwing (her only competition is Nolan/Haar, and there's two speedwings making it pretty likely that she gets one), then I feel like she outclasses Ike for a while. For sure until Ragnell, possibly a bit after depending on the value of movement.

I think the idea of Titania > Ike T makes sense, though the opportunity cost of the speedwing could also keep Ike T > Titania.