Efficiency Tier List?

[Colonel M]

I dunno, for now just put him above or below her.

Wait... What the fuck is Shin doing up that high?

The lowest I can see him sitting is Upper Mid. Unless we're really going to throw the Sacae Route card over and over again (no offense to this, but it gets a little sickening).

Not saying you would Sirius, but someone definitely would.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The "Sacae card" isn't a terrible argument. The thing is that since we don't give a fuck about rankings in this tier list, that hurts him less but the Sacae route is still a bitch to many units and that has to be taken into consideration.

I know he's statistically decent but being stuck to Bows sucks.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Woops! Didn't notice Shin was that high. Will change that immediately, I believe he was either above or below Roy...lets go with below.

[Colonel M]

The "Sacae card" isn't a terrible argument. The thing is that since we don't give a fuck about rankings in this tier list, that hurts him less but the Sacae route is still a bitch to many units and that has to be taken into consideration.

I know he's statistically decent but being stuck to Bows sucks.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but it's a card that's brought up so many times it's to the point when you want to slap someone in the face. I mean, when that's their only argument.

Think of it like this: Shin himself isn't a detriment on his route. By now he should be promoted and he sports pretty good Avoid. He has a support with Fir and I guess there's others like Dayan and Zeiss, but I won't mention them.

As for the Bow thing, it's true and it isn't something that I can really address as a positive nor a negative. See, ranged offense is useful in certain areas (take C12 for example), and there's still Wyverns which are a bitch to take down in C13. His horse is the main thing that also helps him stay afloat. His chip damage is also very good because he doubles constantly (unlike Klein), so he makes good use of the Killer Bow for a critkill.

Of course, his Enemy Phase gets a small boost upon promotion, but I'll admit it's not much to brag. HM stats could mean he promotes a bit sooner than normal, so the lack of Enemy Phase is slightly easier to patch. No real competition for promotion either.

Thing is the Sacae Card isn't as useful on the Effeciency Tier List, and in most circumstances it shouldn't sway Shin down to somewhere like Low Tier in the first place. The difference is your team will have to accomodate the route, but it's not as hard as people make it out to be.

First off, Roy / Lance / Alan should be assumed. I wouldn't really deny Percival either. The mobile units make good work of themselves here. There's also Deak / Rutgar / Clarine, which should make this easier. Lott can add into this as 20/1 averages with a decent support spread can show - damage when hit by a Nomad. There's Echinda, Douglas, and others that can help make this easier. You can easily prepare for this. The Avoid game is hard to nash on, but really your characters shouldn't be that innacurate at that point. Oh, and Gonzales (Lv 5 one to be specific) at 20/1 and B Echinda takes like 2 damage from a Nomad too.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

No1's moving him that low and I didn't even specify where to move him. High tier is not where he should. I said that the route being harder should be considered and I did say that it hurts him less because don't care about ranking so you've stated lots of obvious stuff.

[Colonel M]

I'm just backing up how he shouldn't drop like a rock (Kuja had him pretty low beforehand). And in case someone tried to. Even so, I'd say he should be above Roy anyway since Roy can have issues doubling somewhere as easy as the Western Isles and is locked to an event promotion. Shin could have an early promo and work on Swords. There isn't a whole lot lost here anyway since he's got good bases beforehand. Also showing how adjusting to the route is pretty simple: it's only a challenge if you make it that way.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

There is no magic user in hte game that can claim invincibility

That includes Clarine.

Clarine also helps benefit plenty of awesome characters, so she is cerainly not lacking in supports

Ellen too. Saul is considerably worse off in this area, though.

I know he's statistically decent but being stuck to Bows sucks.

doesn't suck any more than being stuck to swords

Edited June 16, 2009 by Reikken

[Colonel M]

Ellen too. Saul is considerably worse off in this area, though.

I wouldn't say Ellen is walking away so well in this area either.

I can agree Ellen / Lugh being fine but from there it's iffy. Saul and Chad are too slow, Miredy has Mov issues, and Zeiss has Miredy's problem plus coming very late.

[Reikken]

Saul and Chad are too slow, Miredy has Mov issues, and Zeiss has Miredy's problem plus coming very late.

lol all of Clarine's supports aside from Rutger and Klein are +1s. And Clarine's aren't too slow and Ellen's are?

And Clarine is mounted, and her only mounted supporter is Lance. Double standard much?

And then Ellen's supporters need her more than Clarine's do.

Deak has other supports in Lot and Rutger, one of which is much better. His other supports are also better, though not with the best of units.

Rutger has other supports in Deak and Fir. Fir is admittedly a lot slower, but it also gives him atk that he sorely lacks, so it's not too bad.

Lance has much better supports in Alan and Roy.

Lugh, on the other hand, has Chad, who's hardly reliable, and that's it until way late.

Saul has like nothing

Miledy joins late and has imperfect compatability, so she needs supports that are as fast as she can get.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Reikken

[dondon151]

doesn't suck any more than being stuck to swords

Huh? Yes it does. 1 range > 1-2 range > 2 range in terms of number of enemies. The important part is 1 range > 2 range.

[Reikken]

Yes, 1 > 2 range. In terms of number of enemies. And what is that supposed to mean? Being as similar to the enemy as possible = good?

[grandjackal]

I can at least take solace in that someone agrees with me that 1 range is barely better than 2 range.

Thing about Clarine though is she doesn't need Deick. She has Klein, who by the time he shows up she'd have just gotten a C with Deick anyways. She's no problem with supports.

Another thing with Ellen is just how well is she benefitting her supporters? Her affinity is Wind, official king of garbage.

Saul does indeed have trouble support-wise.

However Reikken, just a bit more and I can be convinced, as I can see where you're coming from. However, perhaps there can be a bit of gapping between these two?

[Reikken]

Wind, king of garbage? Say what? Full offense is garbage now? Especially on units like Lugh, who are attacking much more than they are getting attacked. Do explain.

It may be garbage in FE7, where you can one-round almost everything with an iron lance, but not at all here. Indeed, there are no garbage affinities in FE6.

Additionally, a unit can't get its own affinity's support bonuses without a supporter, regardless of who it is.

[grandjackal]

Wind, king of garbage? Say what? Full offense is garbage now? Especially on units like Lugh, who are attacking much more than they are getting attacked. Do explain.

Don't tell me you actually like wind. I feel like I'm about to get blown away.

It does not boost evade and/or defense. It just makes one kill faster, but we would prefer durability. The harder it is for a character to die, the more offense he can actually pull off. Wind can actually be a detriment, as it just makes it easier for a unit to kill, which brings more enemies in which increases the risk of dying.

It may be garbage in FE7, where you can one-round almost everything with an iron lance, but not at all here. Indeed, there are no garbage affinities in FE6.

I'd say it is actually better in FE7, as the enemies blow too hard and a free power crit could at least save you money on weapon uses. Right now, it's just making a unit riskier to use.

[Reikken]

Don't tell me you actually like wind. I feel like I'm about to get blown away.

It does not boost evade and/or defense. It just makes one kill faster, but we would prefer durability. The harder it is for a character to die, the more offense he can actually pull off. Wind can actually be a detriment, as it just makes it easier for a unit to kill, which brings more enemies in which increases the risk of dying.

What the hell? If the entire game were enemy phase, this would be true. However, it's not. Defense is not inherently better than offense. (I'm not saying the reverse either.) Killing things means it's no longer there to attack anyone, and I can advance sooner. There are advantages either way.

Then note my "Especially on units like Lugh, who are attacking much more than they are getting attacked." Ranged units don't eat hits nearly as much. You have your Lances and such for tanking (and counterattacking) the bulk of enemy phase. Therefore defense doesn't matter as much as his ability to kill off those pesky enemies.

[dondon151]

Yes, 1 > 2 range. In terms of number of enemies. And what is that supposed to mean? Being as similar to the enemy as possible = good?

It's pretty important if you want to counter attack!

[Colonel M]

One problem with Lugh is he has no good durability. And offense. While Ellen does help fix the latter, she doesn't fix his major problem: the former. He NEEDS a dodging game, and only two units really offer it to him (that come early enough and within range): Ray and Chad. Notice one still comes too late still and the latter is busy picking through chests.

lol all of Clarine's supports aside from Rutger and Klein are +1s. And Clarine's aren't too slow and Ellen's are?

And Clarine is mounted, and her only mounted supporter is Lance. Double standard much?

Clarine is also a healer that's mounted. She can shorten her range easily to accomodate the situation. Ellen doesn't have this capability. Ellen's just lucky a couple of her supports are on the ground too. She isn't begging for Deak in the first place: Klein can still pop around and make a quick support. And then you mentioned Lance, which at least matches movement easily.

And then Ellen's supporters need her more than Clarine's do.

Deak has other supports in Lot and Rutger, one of which is much better. His other supports are also better, though not with the best of units.

Rutger has other supports in Deak and Fir. Fir is admittedly a lot slower, but it also gives him atk that he sorely lacks, so it's not too bad.

Lance has much better supports in Alan and Roy.

So Deak isn't necessary. Rutgar wants Clarine because it's faster, and Fir just joins much later with a slow-ass support. Granted it offers Atk, but I don't think Rutgar here is lacking in that stat by a whole lot (critkills).

And we know Lance.

Lugh, on the other hand, has Chad, who's hardly reliable, and that's it until way late.

Saul has like nothing

Miledy joins late and has imperfect compatability, so she needs supports that are as fast as she can get.

Using 3 healers is a bit much. 2 is already pushing it as is, and Lugh is Ellen's only "needing" support. I don't see any problems with Miredy in the first place, unless she's really lacking in ORKOes when she doubles that she desperately needs the B. And then the affinites don't match that well in the first place.

At least people WANT Clarine's affinity. Ellen's affinity offers Atk and Crit, yes, but we want more than that. We want durability and we want dodging capabilities.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

Yes, we want avoid and def, but we also want atk and hit.

@ pointless and wrong stuff about supports:

Lugh gets full offense (up to 3 atk, 15 crit, 15 hit) and half avoid and half crit avo (up to 7 avo, 7 critavo) thanks to Ellen. Period. Comparing Ellen to Ellen-if-she-had-another-affinity is pointless.

@ Clarine support stuff:

I'm not talking about Clarine getting supports. I'm talking about how useful her supports are to others.

And while Rutger has good offense, he is indeed lacking in atk power. It's one of the lowest on the team. When faced with enemies with good def, his otherwise impressive offense takes a big hit. Since he now needs a double crit, or can't one-round even with two crits unless he switches to a 0-crit weapon, or whatever.

Using 3 healers is a bit much. 2 is already pushing it as is

First of all, I never said anything about 3 healers.

Second of all, I strongly disagree with that statement. 1 is too few for sure. 2 or 3 is better.

And wow, considering how highly you seem to prize defense, you should be glad to have as many healers as possible.

and Lugh is Ellen's only "needing" support. I don't see any problems with Miredy in the first place, unless she's really lacking in ORKOes when she doubles that she desperately needs the B. And then the affinites don't match that well in the first place.

Saul needs it even more than Lugh does.

Miledy? Well here's the first thing that comes to mind: ch 21, wyvern riders have around 15-17 def and 46-49 hp. Miledy, with maxed str, which isn't unlikely by then, and a silver lance has 39 atk. With that, assuming an equal spread of those two stats among the enemy, she has enough power to kill in two hits... 75% of the 15-def ones (48 damage), 25% of the 16-def ones (46 damage), and none of the 17-def ones (44 damage), so about 33% of them in total. With +1 atk, 100% of the 15 def (50 dmg), 75% of the 16-def (48), and 25% of the 17-def, so 67% of them. Additionally, her hit on them ranges from about 81 (93% real) to 87 (97%). On a double attack, that's a 6% - 13.5% chance to miss at least once. Adding 10 hit increases the hit chance to near 100% real, dropping the miss chance to 0.1% - 2.5%. And then there's also +crit, +avoid, +crit avoid (lots of killer weapons flying around among the enemy).

[Colonel M]

Yes, we want avoid and def, but we also want atk and hit.

Minus the former, tell me when Lugh is short on Hit?

@ pointless and wrong stuff about supports:

Lugh gets full offense (up to 3 atk, 15 crit, 15 hit) and half avoid and half crit avo (up to 7 avo, 7 critavo) thanks to Ellen. Period. Comparing Ellen to Ellen-if-she-had-another-affinity is pointless.

B Chad offers 1 Atk, 1 Def, 10 Crit, 5 Hit, 10 Avo, 5 CEV.

Lugh doesn't mind extra offense (and Crit, for that matter), but he desperately needs Avo and Def. At least Chad can offer both at a lower support end.

I never compared to Ellen-if-she-had-another-affinity.

@ Clarine support stuff:

I'm not talking about Clarine getting supports. I'm talking about how useful her supports are to others.

So... all of a sudden Deak doesn't want more Def and Avo? Neither does Rutgar? Or Klein?

And while Rutger has good offense, he is indeed lacking in atk power. It's one of the lowest on the team. When faced with enemies with good def, his otherwise impressive offense takes a big hit. Since he now needs a double crit, or can't one-round even with two crits unless he switches to a 0-crit weapon, or whatever.

So A Clarine / B Fir?

What's so different about this set-up?

First of all, I never said anything about 3 healers.

Second of all, I strongly disagree with that statement. 1 is too few for sure. 2 or 3 is better.

And wow, considering how highly you seem to prize defense, you should be glad to have as many healers as possible.

Lawl, you most likely need 2 healers until ~C7, then it's almost pointless. Clarine can easily do the "healing" job, and Lugh can as well. Hell, if you really felt like it slap an early promotion on Lugh and BAM, healing and gaining levels easier.

Saul needs it even more than Lugh does.

Now you're dodging the point. Lugh wants it desperately. Sure, Saul can have a B Ellen, but don't you think 3-4 healers is a bit much?

Miledy? Well here's the first thing that comes to mind: ch 21, wyvern riders have around 15-17 def and 46-49 hp. Miledy, with maxed str, which isn't unlikely by then, and a silver lance has 39 atk. With that, assuming an equal spread of those two stats among the enemy, she has enough power to kill in two hits... 75% of the 15-def ones (48 damage), 25% of the 16-def ones (46 damage), and none of the 17-def ones (44 damage), so about 33% of them in total. With +1 atk, 100% of the 15 def (50 dmg), 75% of the 16-def (48), and 25% of the 17-def, so 67% of them. Additionally, her hit on them ranges from about 81 (93% real) to 87 (97%). On a double attack, that's a 6% - 13.5% chance to miss at least once. Adding 10 hit increases the hit chance to near 100% real, dropping the miss chance to 0.1% - 2.5%. And then there's also +crit, +avoid, +crit avoid (lots of killer weapons flying around among the enemy).

Likely a B as well, since A is rather unproductive (+2 Avoid, but at least +5 Crit).

I don't care if Ellen and Saul move up, just stating that the whole "support" ordeal isn't 100% intact to definition. At least you showed that A Lugh / B Miredy is fine, so moving Ellen up a bit more is cool with me. Saul seems to be the one that lacks a bit on supporting the team (Ellen, as you said, is likely his best bet. Then Yodel. >_>).

Also, noticed that a Saul / Ellen support is slow as hell too (1+1), and they're VERY unlikely next to each other.

[Duff Ostrich]

I know I'm a bit late with this, but is it worth reposting any old arguments? I have a couple saved on word documents, and in particular the Gonzales and Echidna one. Not to just focus on them, but I see Gonzales back in upper-mid tier and he's the only guy I argued who seems to be in a different place than he was before the server crash, and I do not see any argument pushing him down.

But I dont want to be obnoxious by reposting unless I need to argue it again.

[grandjackal]

I know I'm a bit late with this, but is it worth reposting any old arguments? I have a couple saved on word documents, and in particular the Gonzales and Echidna one. Not to just focus on them, but I see Gonzales back in upper-mid tier and he's the only guy I argued who seems to be in a different place than he was before the server crash, and I do not see any argument pushing him down.

But I dont want to be obnoxious by reposting unless I need to argue it again.

Uhhh, Echidna's in high, and he's in upper mid, how do you suggest he's gonna climb up such ranks, especially considering he needs to wait for a hero crest and has accuracy issues?

[Colonel M]

Uhhh, Echidna's in high, and he's in upper mid, how do you suggest he's gonna climb up such ranks, especially considering he needs to wait for a hero crest and has accuracy issues?

Echinda mode Gonzales and how he can rape and pillage Sacae with 14 Def + Supports.

Nah, just kidding. But I'm thinking that him climbing any higher seems unlikely. It's already bad that people are questioning why he's so high to begin with, but w/e.

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmm, Gonzales, he was considered high tier before right?

Upper mid sounds right. He has a lot of hit issues and problems getting supports, so when he joins he's iffier than your other units.

[Mekkah]

Shin is in both High and Upper Mid now, remove his High position.

Knock Ray down. A lot. In just the tail of Ch12 and whole of Ch13 he is hardly doing much for you, and there is no room for him in 12x.

--/1 Cecila

Aircalibur: 19.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 103.8 hit, 3.3 crit - - 30.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 7.0 def, 13.0 res, 10.0 critavo

14/0 Ray (C Lugh)

Flux: 20.9 atk, 8.8 AS, 98.1 hit, 6.8 crit - - 28.9 avo, 24.1 hp, 5.3 def, 10.7 res, 8.3 critavo

You know you need gtfo when Cecilia is owning the crap out of you. 6 hp/1-2 def is all the leading she needs, because she also has staves and horse. And she gains EXP faster than him - about as fast as Ray if he'd be 15/0, plus staves, plus :gasp: better at combat.

4 levels for Ray and 5 levels for Cecilia later (14, 14x, 15, 16), plus a Guiding Ring and some supporting, and Ray wins...

--/5 Cecilia (C Roy)

Aircalibur: 21.8 atk, 11.2 AS, 110.9 hit, 6.4 crit - - 38.6 avo, 33.0 hp, 8.0 def, 14.2 res, 13.2 critavo

18/1 Ray (B Lugh)

Flux: 27.7 atk, 13.4 AS, 111.8 hit, 11.9 crit - - 43.7 avo, 29.3 hp, 8.9 def, 15.1 res, 11.9 critavo

But then Ray likely stops building supports, while Cecilia still has at least B Percival to look forward to, so...

--/12 Cecilia (B Percival, C Roy)

Aircalibur: 24.8 atk, 12.8 AS, 122.2 hit, 12.8 crit - - 53.4 avo, 36.6 hp, 10.2 def, 16.8 res, 24.8 critavo

18/6 Ray (B Lugh)

Flux: 30.0 atk, 15.4 AS, 117.8 hit, 13.3 crit - - 48.4 avo, 32.0 hp, 9.6 def, 16.8 res, 12.6 critavo

And now it's offense vs defense again. Above doesn't consider Nosferatu though, but Cecilia's C staves vs Ray's E (maybe A vs D later or something) also has huge utility, and of course her huge move, and didn't need to be babied.

imo Cecilia > Ray

Then in lower Mid Saul is chilling for no real reason, and Lot vs Ray is your basic melee vs magic debate which I think Lot has the edge in, particulary because of joining time and supports. And Ray strikes me as more of a detriment than a help, so I'd put him below those.

[Dat Nick]

*waits for Jackal to pull out the Nosferatu card in an attempt to justify Ray>Cecilia*