Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Yeah, mercy on whoever's gonna take up Fir vs Klein.

As for Percival vs. Miledy. It is a pretty close call, as Miledy's bases are awesome as well, and has flight. Both are badass loners. She needs training, he needs glasses.

[Dat Nick]

his base hit isn't that much worse than Miredy. Matter of fact it's better than hers in every single way [More skill, luck, better growths in both and access to swords] if he needs glasses than goddess knows Miredy does.

And you know I hate glasses on girls.

Edited June 25, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Quasar]

As the self-appointed president of Miredy Defense Force (MDF) I feel necessary to point out that you can quite freely promote Miredy at 14-15 which is pretty realistic by the time Percival joins. You don't really lose anything as 20/20 is a bit of a far-fetched dream and gives Miredy a stat boost and swords earlier. If promoted at 15 Miredy's main loss is in SPD (17 to 20+Percival's CON for heavier weapons) and Sword skill. Luckily 17 SPD is pretty respectable at CH15 and is able to double everything, if not weighed down, that Percival can except some Mercenaries. Iron Sword is meh of course. For what it's worth Miredy's supports are better too. And that's quite sad.

[grandjackal]

Both sides have good points, and resource consumption for Miledy is rather null as A. She's more than pulling her weight when she joins, and B. She's the best user of the Elysian Whips, and you got like two or something by then anyways.

[Colonel M]

There's 3 I though.

Support thing is kind of null. Both have decent support options, but they seem a bit... unpractical, perhaps. Percival's best is probably Cecilia, and that isn't saying a whole lot. Lugh and Ellen are on Miredy's side, but at least they give her contacts (because BB hates glasses).

[Dat Nick]

How common are Killer Lances when Miredy joins? Because if she wants any real decent MT and killers not that common she's forced to use steel which makes her bad hit worse.

Edited June 25, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Colonel M]

Apparently they're buyable in her chapter, so if anything she'd have to live with a Steel Lance or an Iron Lance for a short time.

[grandjackal]

I believe they're also buyable next chapter, the desert where not only she shines greatly, but also where you get the silver card.

[Quasar]

Where on earth did you get this bad hit business? She has 109 HIT (WTT) at join with Killer Lance and 104 with Iron Lance. Percival has 114 HIT (WTT) with Killer Lance several chapters later. Miredy has more at this point.

And, uh.. I think "decent support options" is kind of an overstatement. Cecilia (...) vs. Ellen (...) and a really good support with Zeis (matching mobility and it's fast, unlike Zeis himself). I like Zeis but he's horrible. At least it's a decent choice should he be played and thinking about it it's probably the only reason to use him anyway. Lugh is 1+1 and I don't see them ever getting even a C with Miredy's mobility.

[Colonel M]

Do you really see people begging for Darkness affinity in the first place? Closest is Cecilia for Percival because God knows if you're going to put a leash on him with others like Lalum (...)

[dondon151]

I thought this Percival-Miledy argument would have been obvious.

Miledy has 3 more chapters of availability and flight and performs similarly to Percival in chapter 15 when he joins. Miledy requires a promotion item while Percival does not, but this promotion item is in extremely low demand. Miledy has flight and matches Percival's move. As for supports, they have fast supports with subpar units.

The only possible argument in Percival's favor is that his 20 AS is doubling significantly more enemies than Miledy's 17-18 AS at 15/1 or 16/1. The only enemy type that Percival is doubling while Miledy is not are mercs (which, admittedly there are quite a few on chapter 15), but Miledy only needs 19 AS to double a majority of them, so this lead will disappear shortly. On the physical side, Miledy edges out a slight durability win, 50.7 HP/15.3 def for Percival against 47.5 HP/18.7 def for Miledy. Percival is a ton better against magic (12.9 res against 6.3 res), which is considerable but not too significant.

In short, are being better against magic and a short-term advantage of doubling one enemy type superior to better physical defensive parameters and 3 maps of performance where flying utility is in high demand (not to mention flying utility throughout the rest of the game)? I personally don't think so.

Edited June 25, 2009 by dondon151

[Quasar]

Any doubts about Fa can be resolved here...just take out a few exp rank arguments. http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusion/topic/392898/1/

How did this resolve anything?

[Mekkah]

A2ZOMG's motto: if you can't paraphrase Reikken about it to prove your point, just link to something he said. :P

Edited June 25, 2009 by Mekkah

[Colonel M]

I thought this Percival-Miledy argument would have been obvious.

If it was obvious, this Tier list would've been presented, we comment on how perfect it is and close it forever. No, nothing is quite obvious really. (Course this is me joking around a bit).

Though in all honesty, I still stand by Miredy > Percival through and through.

[Mekkah]

Fir joins midway Ch9, Klein in Ch11 because B route sucks for lots of reasons (but if we're going there, Fir gets a Bartre support to work with). Okay fine, he joins either in Ch10 midway or Ch11 midway, so on average Fir has Ch9 half and Ch10 whole to build levels. She grows superfast on pirates and fighters due to being low leveled...and both Ch9 and Ch10A have a LOT of axes. So I'd say her being 6/0 when Klein joins isn't out of the question.

6/0 HM Fir

28 hp, 10 str, 15 skl, 16 spd, 8 luk, 5 def, 3 res

Iron Sword: 15 atk, 16 AS, 119 hit -- 40 avo

Steel Swrd: 18 atk, 11 AS, 104 hit -- 30 avo

Klein apparently has multiple HM versions, but I'm not feeling generous today, so I'm going with the worse one.

--/1 HM Klein

32 hp, 15.5 str, 15.5 skl, 12-13 spd, 12-13 luk, 9 def, 7 res

Iron Bowww: 21-22 atk, 12-13 AS, 118 hit -- 37 avo

Steel Boww: 24-25 atk, 12-13 AS, 103 hit

Silver Bow: 28-29 atk, 12-13 AS, 108 hit

If this was going to be easy, we wouldn't have controversy. It'll obviously be midgame win vs lategame win. Let's see by how much Klein is actually winning.

First, performance against your basic Steel Axe Fighter:

26 atk, 67 hit

35 hp, 4 def, 6 AS

Steel Sword Fir does 15x2, Iron Sword does 12x2, a 2RKO either way but Steel Sword Fir can 3HKO which has some very slight advantages, the biggest one that she can kill a weakened one without taking a counter.

Iron Bow Klein can actually ORKO if he has higher end str, and Steel Bow ORKOs always.

Defensively, both get 2HKOed, though Fir takes a lot more damage whereas Klein using a vulnerary allows him to take another hit, and Fir will also die from anything else like a Merc. The Fighter only has ~6% true on Iron Fir, and ~15% on Steel Fir, while he has ~18% on Klein. Klein takes no counters though, but also has to be shielded (but it's also easy to do that for him due to 6 mov and 2 range). And Fir can do things on enemy phase. Not against Hand Axes though.

For other factors, Klein has Longbow, and Fir has Wo Dao.

Klein can win more badly than this though. Like a 17 atk/105 hit Iron Bow Archer nearly 2HKOs (but admittedly 3HKOs) Fir at ~75%, while on Klein it is like a 4HKO at ~78%. Or a Steel Sword Merc with 20 atk and similar hit does 2HKO Fir while 3HKOing Klein.

Offensively against those, Fir can't really double Mercs yet. They have 13-14 Spd and lose 1 AS from Steel, so she might double some with Iron, but she's only doing 8x2, and they often have more than 32 hp, so that's like a 3RKO. Meanwhile Steel Bow!Klein would do 17 damage in just one hit. Archers have similar hp/def, but Fir definitely doubles them with Iron now while Klein still likely doesn't (10 AS). Of course, they will switch to Steel soon, which reduces them to 8 AS. Fir with just one more Spd can Steel double those, and Klein can now too.

Not much changes from here except lances pop up more, and in Ch13 you'll see fliers and stuff. Fir's AS will improve so that she doubles everything, but her atk simply isn't improving.

That's it for their midgame. I'll see what I can do about promoted Fir later.

[grandjackal]

While Mekkah here is putting my mind at ease, anyone think Saul should go above Ellen due to actual existing awesomeness at Sacae?

[Colonel M]

Yeh, I need a refresher: how common are Killer weapons? This situation almost reminds me of Lucius and why I hate him so much: low Luck.

[Shadow Mir]

Yeh, I need a refresher: how common are Killer weapons? This situation almost reminds me of Lucius and why I hate him so much: low Luck.

And Saul being brought up reminds me of why I hate him and Moulder so much: Low Luck.

[grandjackal]

Yeh, I need a refresher: how common are Killer weapons? This situation almost reminds me of Lucius and why I hate him so much: low Luck.

Well, they're buyable basically once you get into the seperate routes of the isles, then the bridge and at the desert.

You find one killer axe and one killer edge earlygame, and Rutger comes with his own personal killer. You have the option of a killer bow before the route split at the isles. I...forget when you get killer lances as an item you just find, if any.

as for Saul, his ice affinity fixes up any problem bad luck might have, aside from Evade which can only become decent rather than godly. Supports with Dorothy, Ellen and/or Cecilia really do kill any percent chance enemies may have on you aside from killer weapons. On average, an A Dorothy B Ellen/C Cecilia allows him safety from crit in Sacae. He doesn't get doubled by quite a handy amount, with this supports pulls 88 displayed hit (ya know, when everyone else is having trouble hitting these fuckers), and 3RKOs the most annoying and common enemy, the nomad. With those supports, he can pull off the durability of being 4RKOd by them. Without it, it's 3RKO. He can double the wyvern riders as well.

Thing about this? This is just him at base promotion. You really think he's gonna be at base promotion when Sacae rolls around?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Colonel M]

I meant Killers in particular to Saul's bad Luck stat.

I like Mouldah. His Anima affinity is hax as well as his broken Con stat. Don't forget: the Stache.

As for Saul, I'll get back to you on that.

[grandjackal]

I meant Killers in particular to Saul's bad Luck stat.

Ohhhhh!

Well lessee....

1 killer armor in chapter 8

Berserker boss in chapter 9

I believe a couple brigands with killers on Bartre's route

I know there's 3 killer lancer cavs in Echidna's chapter.

3 killer lancer cavs at the bridge.

Killer swordsman and Killer archer at Percival's returning chapter...

Gets a tad foggy, but there are actually quite a few.

I like Mouldah. His Anima affinity is hax as well as his broken Con stat. Don't forget: the Stache.

Indeed.

[Colonel M]

My head is foggy, though there are some Berserkers... hm...

I wouldn't say it's because being prone to constant crits would totally shut Saul down on climbing up. That is, if he can do well in Sacae. Though... what of Ilia? I usually assume both route's performances IMO (though some might just assume Ilias in general).

[Quasar]

Thing about this? This is just him at base promotion. You really think he's gonna be at base promotion when Sacae rolls around?

Well, the Guiding Ring is rare as hell. Lugh is probably stealing the first one for a more meaningful promotion so even if you're 20 by the time Sacae comes there's only the other ring left from the end of 14 and it's contested. Of course the same goes for Ellen.

[Colonel M]

Though he should be promoted beforehand, since C16 one can easily obtain promotional items.

[Shadow Mir]

I like Mouldah. His Anima affinity is hax as well as his broken Con stat. Don't forget: the Stache.

I don't care for his overkill Con since I don't even use tomes of C rank or higher in FE7 and FE8 due to most of them being garbage anyway. And I find that moustache ugly and repulsive.

That aside, there are those 'Zerkers in teh desert, but since Saul has full move and they don't...

Edited June 26, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin