Efficiency Tier List?

[Quasar]

12 level ups in nearly 10 chapters is possibly even low for Lance. 3 hits and 3 kills per chapter is enough for that, assuming same-level enemies. Granted they are often a bit lower level, but that still leaves a lot of room. 4 hits and 4 kills per ch if they're around 3 levels lower than Lance.

3 hits and 3 kills sounds like a low amount, yes. Chapter one has 14 enemies and you have six offensive units. Now what? Chapter two has 20 enemies and you have ten offensive units. Now what again? Chapter three has 21+6 cav reinforcements (or 4?) and you have 12 offensive units. 11 disregarding Lugh. See where I'm going with this?

And supports out of proportion? lol what? It takes 45 turns to get to B with either Alan or Roy. in 9 chapters, that's a mere 5 turns per chapter, when the chapters take like 17 turns each. No, far from blown out of proportion, Lance will soon reach A with Alan.

Can you honestly say you'll be lining up Roy in between Alan and Lance even five times during a chapter? Unless you're suggesting he's carried which makes Lance killing that much enemies even more questionable. Even lining up Alan and Lance next to each other is kind of difficult when you're attacking things. Or are you suggesting we sandbag Alan and have him carry Roy and have him miss on Roy support by having Lance in between the two?

Soon reach A? Then even five turn per chapters isn't enough. I've never had over C Alan+Lance at this point of the game.

That's 7.5 chapters for Chad, btw. Shin doesn't join at the beginning of 9. And this is also far from unreasonable. 3 hits and 3 kills per ch assuming equal levels gets him that much, or 3.5 hits and kills per ch if they're around 3 lower. Non combat unit doesn't mean he's not fighting---he usually doesn't have anything else to do, so that is indeed what he does---it just means that's not his primary function.

Of course. It also means once shinies start appearing he has no business killing things but needs to steal them or run after chests. Also you mentioned WTA for Chad. What about WTD which is what he's having for most of the time until Shin joins.

Oh? Do tell why we should assume Marcus should be used in an inefficient manner.

It was agreed on that characters can't be dropped midgame and their performance during entire time available should be looked at. It's written on the first post of the thread.

I'm not saying Marcus shouldn't be high but Chapters 1-7 aren't enough to do it on their own. I agree they're more valuable than chapters where you have many other good units but I wouldn't say twice as valuable.

[Florete]

Jackal, I'm done. No one else is jumping in, and I know neither of us will be convinced by the other. I don't know why you won't just accept a formal debate so we can let judges decide who wins (But like I said, the only conclusion I can come to is you saying to yourself "Oh shit, I'm gonna lose." After all, what else could I come to?). I know you want to end it, but you won't even accept the best way to do so, so I don't even care anymore. Put Klein above Fir. It's come to the point where I've put too much time and stress into an internet argument, and your grasping at straws to get out of it is teeth-clenchingly annoying. So until you stop acting like a coward about it (And don't say you don't. I've seen you whine when people mention it), peace.

But don't worry, I will bring it up again. You can count on that.

By the way, RD Mia's defense growth is 40%.

[grandjackal]

Why are we using Marcus in an inefficient manner? Well for one, if someone has a point in time where they are not good, it should be considered. Otherwise, I'd probably have Klein in high as well. Klein has bad points, and so does Marcus, it should be considered.

Reikken, if you're gonna try to get Marcus to high, point out that his only real weak point is lategame offense, because I STILL see it a possibility.

Also, I could care less if Dorothy's Saul's only good support. Dorothy starts a mediocre archer and stays that way forever. Only real thing I'd get out of Saul with A Dorothy B Ellen is a mage who can get 3RKOd in Sacae. Rather minor for someone who's giving a freaking A.

Jackal, I'm done. No one else is jumping in, and I know neither of us will be convinced by the other. I don't know why you won't just accept a formal debate so we can let judges decide who wins (But like I said, the only conclusion I can come to is you saying to yourself "Oh shit, I'm gonna lose." After all, what else could I come to?). I know you want to end it, but you won't even accept the best way to do so, so I don't even care anymore. Put Klein above Fir. It's come to the point where I've put too much time and stress into an internet argument, and your grasping at straws to get out of it is teeth-clenchingly annoying. So until you stop acting like a coward about it (And don't say you don't. I've seen you whine when people mention it), peace.

But don't worry, I will bring it up again. You can count on that.

By the way, RD Mia's defense growth is 40%.

Why ISN'T anyone jumping in? No one has voiced their opinion other than Joker and I guess Sirius, even though we both want the argument to end. We've concluded what, for the third time now? Does NO ONE have ANY thoughts on this? Jesus people, if you don't speak up now, this argument will fill yet another few pages. This will just end up being the most annoying debate ever, so for fuck's sakes, someone speak the fuck up already! We've asked 3 times!

...That just makes Mia even more rediculous!

Also, I will not move them, knowing you will just bring it up again. 'Twould be senseless.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Reikken]

Why are we using Marcus in an inefficient manner? Well for one, if someone has a point in time where they are not good, it should be considered. Otherwise, I'd probably have Klein in high as well. Klein has bad points, and so does Marcus, it should be considered.

Klein's good parts <<<< Marcus's good parts. Klein isn't high tier either way.

Also, I could care less if Dorothy's Saul's only good support. Dorothy starts a mediocre archer and stays that way forever. Only real thing I'd get out of Saul with A Dorothy B Ellen is a mage who can get 3RKOd in Sacae. Rather minor for someone who's giving a freaking A.

Actually, Saul would typically be getting 4RK'd by short bow nomads. It stays that way even if you make one or two of them a NT. And then he has a good chance of having enough spd to double and one-round. If a NT grabs a steel sword, then it too is eligible for being doubled. They have too much hp/res to be one-rounded even if he does double, though.

Klein vs Fir? I've always seen Fir as significantly higher than Klein and never doubted that. That's with exp rank existing, though. So you have some kind of long-running argument? *scrolls up*

The first thing I see is

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch10a.html

This is chapter 10. Her 13 AS doubles a grand total of 2 enemy types

No. She doubles all or almost all of the fighters, by far the most common (most numerous starting out, and then there are several waves of fighter reinforcements). The zerker too. All but two of them have AS loss, and the alt weapons for those two give them a point of AS loss (hand axe). Combining all the shamans and non-ballista archers gives you 4 enemies. Then there are like 7 mercs, and everything else uses an axe except the ballista guy and the boss. One of the largest enemy types, pirate, wasn't included in that list. Over half of them have 5 AS loss. The ones that don't (poison axes) have ~11 AS.

Also..

With the Wo Dao maybe, but that's a weapon Rutger could use as well.

Indeed having Fir use it is a loss for Rutger, but that doesn't mean you pretend that she doesn't or can't use it. She benefits much more than Rutger ever would (he can double and dodge with a steel sword; he only needs it for the crit), so giving it to her is still a net positive despite the loss. The most efficient way to use her is to give it to her.

How are you getting 13 AS, btw? That's base level Fir, and a base level Fir gets 60 exp for killing a lv 10, fairly typical of ch 9.

3 hits and 3 kills sounds like a low amount, yes. Chapter one has 14 enemies and you have six offensive units. Now what? Chapter two has 20 enemies and you have ten offensive units. Now what again? Chapter three has 21+6 cav reinforcements (or 4?) and you have 12 offensive units. 11 disregarding Lugh. See where I'm going with this?

Again, you'll have to do better than this, sir.

6 offensive units in ch 1, yes. 3 of which you won't be using later (one doesn't even gain exp off them) and so have no reason to give kills. It's a similar story for the rest of the chapters.

Alan, Lance, and Roy need not all be 'lined up' at once. 3 turns of both next to Lance, and 3 turns each of Lance next just one of Alan or Roy makes for +6 support turns for each, and is spent over only 9 turns. Out of ~17. Leaving 8 turns where none of that's happening. ie the number of turns spent attacking (4+4) assuming every single attack is on player phase. He exceeds the quota very very easily.

Now to reality: Make 40% of attacks on enemy phase, and even increase non-kill attacks by 2, and you have 6 turns spent attacking. Obviously not every attacking turn is impossible to build supports on, so make even just 1 of those work for supports, and you have ~12 turns for supports. 4 of all 3 together and 4 each of one of the two = 8 support turns per chapter with each supporter. Even blank out a turn completely for no reason, and that's 7-8. 7.33. It's 85 turns to A, but also 45 turns to B Roy, after which you no longer need to care about building supports with Roy and so can focus entirely on Alan-Lance. With this, it's just over 6 chapters to reach B Alan/Roy, which would be a few turns into ch 7. Factoring in that some of the earlier chapters (1, 2) are shorter, and later ones (lol ch8) are longer puts that more at the end of ch 7. Or more likely midway through ch 7 for one (Alan) and near the start of ch 8 for the other (Roy). Which correlates pretty exactly with my own experience, btw.

Indeed Chad is not amazing at combat before Shin joins. And?

It was agreed on that characters can't be dropped midgame and their performance during entire time available should be looked at. It's written on the first post of the thread.

Oh? I see.

[grandjackal]

Klein's good parts <<<< Marcus's good parts. Klein isn't high tier either way.

Rather, it's Marcus>Klein, and I do see your point. Just go about it another way.

Seriously, his ONLY bad point is lategame offense. Go with that.

Actually, Saul would typically be getting 4RK'd by short bow nomads. It stays that way even if you make one or two of them a NT. And then he has a good chance of having enough spd to double and one-round. If a NT grabs a steel sword, then it too is eligible for being doubled. They have too much hp/res to be one-rounded even if he does double, though.

Now how is this worth dragging Dorothy around most of the game with her mediocrity?

Klein vs Fir? I've always seen Fir as significantly higher than Klein and never doubted that. That's with exp rank existing, though. So you have some kind of long-running argument? *scrolls up*

The first thing I see is

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch10a.html

No. She doubles all or almost all of the fighters, by far the most common (most numerous starting out, and then there are several waves of fighter reinforcements). The zerker too. All but two of them have AS loss, and the alt weapons for those two give them a point of AS loss (hand axe). Combining all the shamans and non-ballista archers gives you 4 enemies. Then there are like 7 mercs, and everything else uses an axe except the ballista guy and the boss. One of the largest enemy types, pirate, wasn't included in that list. Over half of them have 5 AS loss. The ones that don't (poison axes) have ~11 AS.

Also..

Indeed having Fir use it is a loss for Rutger, but that doesn't mean you pretend that she doesn't or can't use it. She benefits much more than Rutger ever would (he can double and dodge with a steel sword; he only needs it for the crit), so giving it to her is still a net positive despite the loss. The most efficient way to use her is to give it to her.

How are you getting 13 AS, btw? That's base level Fir, and a base level Fir gets 60 exp for killing a lv 10, fairly typical of ch 9.

Believe me, this has tormented me and Red for a good while.

Anyways, I forgot they have heavier weapons, but she's still not 2RKOing. I'd still consider it a danger on having her out there with her bad durability.

And the most efficient way to use the Wo Dao is to give it to Rutger, because he uses it better and there's only one. I see no reason to give it to her when he uses it better.

[Reikken]

"Marcus>Klein" is equivalent to "Klein < Marcus".

And no, I don't think Marcus is high tier if he has to be used the entire game. It doesn't make any sense at all to do, but I don't see him in high if you have to do it.

His defense is none too shabby late if he gets in on Roy/Alan/Lance support action, but bad offense is bad. I can see him being higher than he is now, though

Now how is this worth dragging Dorothy around most of the game with her mediocrity?

It's not. I'm not suggesting that she's mid tier or something. She's still low tier, just better than Wolt and the like.

Anyways, I forgot they have heavier weapons, but she's still not 2RKOing. I'd still consider it a danger on having her out there with her bad durability.

And the most efficient way to use the Wo Dao is to give it to Rutger, because he uses it better and there's only one. I see no reason to give it to her when he uses it better.

She is indeed 2RKing. She does ~10 damage per hit with an iron sword, and they have like 36 hp.

No, Rutger may be better with it than Fir is with it, but that's because he's much better to begin with. It's much more efficient to give it to Fir as she gets much more out of it. Or to put it another way,

6 (Fir w/) + 7 (Rutger w/o) > 2 (Fir w/o) + 9 (Rutger w/)

Edited August 28, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

"Marcus>Klein" is equivalent to "Klein < Marcus".

And no, I don't think Marcus is high tier if he has to be used the entire game. It doesn't make any sense at all to do, but I don't see him in high if you have to do it.

His defense is none too shabby late if he gets in on Roy/Alan/Lance support action, but bad offense is bad. I can see him being higher than he is now, though

In exchange, everyone else has to deal with their period of suck. How bad is Marcus's offense lategame compared to everyone else's bad parts? Well there is in fact a way to make up for it via slayer weapons. This doesn't account for all enemy classes, but it does help his offense on things like Wyverns, Paladins and armors. Another advantage he has is weapon rank and time. Auto A Lances, C Swords, plenty of time to build the ol' axe rank. He could virtually have any slayer he could ask for by lategame. It doesn't fix everything, but it works. Endgame he has enough speed to function there.

It's not. I'm not suggesting that she's mid tier or something. She's still low tier, just better than Wolt and the like.

Will be lower leveled than he on arrival, can help give Roy's Boys faster bonuses (three Cs are better than 2), doesn't really grow exceptionally better, Walt's got forced chapters anyways...

If she climbs, no way in hell she goes above Walt.

She is indeed 2RKing. She does ~10 damage per hit with an iron sword, and they have like 36 hp.

I still wouldn't bother, due to durability. Tad too risky, don't ya think? Not all enemies are axers, ya know. Even then, it's not like she's running them into 0's.

No, Rutger may be better with it than Fir is with it, but that's because he's much better to begin with. It's much more efficient to give it to Fir as she gets much more out of it. Or to put it another way,

6 (Fir w/) + 7 (Rutger w/o) > 2 (Fir w/o) + 9 (Rutger w/)

Doesn't stop the fact she has competition for her weapon. Who else can use the silver bow at the time Klein can? Ab-so-lu-te-ly no-one.

[Narga_Rocks]

No, Rutger may be better with it than Fir is with it, but that's because he's much better to begin with. It's much more efficient to give it to Fir as she gets much more out of it. Or to put it another way,

6 (Fir w/) + 7 (Rutger w/o) > 2 (Fir w/o) + 9 (Rutger w/)

Doesn't stop the fact she has competition for her weapon. Who else can use the silver bow at the time Klein can? Ab-so-lu-te-ly no-one.

I'm confused. Why can't Rutger use the two killing edges and just let Fir have her wo dao? It seems like a better distribution of resources to me.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

No, Rutger may be better with it than Fir is with it, but that's because he's much better to begin with. It's much more efficient to give it to Fir as she gets much more out of it. Or to put it another way,

6 (Fir w/) + 7 (Rutger w/o) > 2 (Fir w/o) + 9 (Rutger w/)

Doesn't stop the fact she has competition for her weapon. Who else can use the silver bow at the time Klein can? Ab-so-lu-te-ly no-one.

I'm confused. Why can't Rutger use the two killing edges and just let Fir have her wo dao? It seems like a better distribution of resources to me.

Because any of our swordies could use said killing edge. Marcus, Roy, Deick, Allen, Lance...

[Reikken]

In exchange, everyone else has to deal with their period of suck.

No. Marcus's period of suck is fundamentally different from that of "everyone else", like OJ or Lilina. Marcus you can use while he's good only. The same cannot be done for someone like Ray or Treck. They have to be used during their "period of suck" before they can become good (or decent). The reason it makes sense to drop Marcus later is that his suck comes after the time he's good, so it's completely avoidable. You can avoid it, so you should.

Will be lower leveled than he on arrival, can help give Roy's Boys faster bonuses (three Cs are better than 2), doesn't really grow exceptionally better, Walt's got forced chapters anyways...

If she climbs, no way in hell she goes above Walt.

He's not all that helpful in his forced chapters (1-2 damage on ch 4's cavaliers, and he may get one-rounded by them if he gets attacked? Then in many other chapters, it's so crowded with so many units on the field, he has trouble finding enough room to even get close enough to attack, or else he may be displacing another forced unit), and Dorothy has a forced chapter of her own, too.

Wolt supports are cool early on, since they'll get more hit and an extra point of def, though the supports with Wolt will be a good bit slower than the other ones (yet another support to build simultaneously) or else make them all build a bit slower; but later on they're losing atk power in exchange for def that they don't really need (they have extremely high avoid and respectable def/hp already), and also have a less manageable support. And by that I mean that it's easier to keep 2 supporters in range of someone than it is to keep 3 in range. They're probably actually worse off overall, considering how fast they max their supports normally.

And then Dorothy has other cool supports. Other than Saul, there's also Shin and Clarine. Shin normally has no real options other than Fir, so that's a huge help to him. Clarine's isn't as w1n, but still nice: she needs all the atk she can get.

Wolt is on a higher level, yes, but a lv 5 Dorothy's offensive stats are equal to those of a 6 Wolt, and her growths are better, so whatever lead he has is either negligible or doesn't last for any substantial duration. She starts beating him before promotion, but after promotion is when it's really clear. There Dorothy is beating Wolt in atk and AS by 2 points each, or more. Her offense is actually decent after promotion. Probably better than Deak's (offense, not application of offense, like in counterattacking) with similar atk/AS, more hit, and that raepswyverns thing she has going for her. A tiny lead early vs being clearly better later and having much more helpful supports is enough of a difference for Dorothy to be higher than Wolt by enough for her to be past the tier break at the bottom of low with Wolt still in that fail tier.

I still wouldn't bother, due to durability. Tad too risky, don't ya think? Not all enemies are axers, ya know. Even then, it's not like she's running them into 0's.

No. She doesn't get OHKd, and she's not soloing. You can easily ensure that she has no chance of dying.

Doesn't stop the fact she has competition for her weapon.

Indeed that is taken into account.

[Dat Nick]

Let's go back to Walt for a second.

Him being forced for 4 chapters is the only reason he's above Karel and Dorothy. This being because you can just ditch Walt later. But by the whole game logic (which I do not agree with at all as it's only purpose is to fuck over utility characters), Walt CANNOT be ditched and we have to deal with his suck longer, which cancels out the whole reason why Karel and Dorothy were put under him.

Either go the whole way with this logic or don't go anywhere with it. Marcus in High or Walt below Karel and Dorothy.

[CATS]

It was agreed on that characters can't be dropped midgame and their performance during entire time available should be looked at. It's written on the first post of the thread.

absurd

The topic title is "Efficiency Tier List." Playing Marcus for the entire game is blatantly inefficient. You people need to decide one way or the other. If you want to make up arbitrary constraints which are contrary to actual efficient play, that's cool, but if you're going to do that, then don't pretend that you're making a tier list based on efficiency. Just saying.

[grandjackal]

Firstly, I just wanna address Marcus. He can get supports, and can make up for his lategame blehness with slayer weapons, as he has all the time in the world to build up weapon rank. Even considering "inefficient" use, he can still keep steady in some shape and form. After all, using him as if he were a normal unit rather than a jeigen unit, then dumping him? That's quite of exp we just flushed down the drain. This isn't exp stealing from years of yore, this is literally just making it vanish. It's like someone dying. If we're killing people off, Walt can do this too on an extent because he can give Roy's Boys a couple Cs or possibly Bs (Lance with more durability? Sure!), then kill him off to empty the support slots AND he's been helpful in some form of earlygame, where Dorothy has not and cannot due to her severe lack of supports that want her.

I'll let you guys tug at it a bit more before we decide if the rules stops or not, but...

Fir>Klein. I just can't help btu underestimate her, but it seems there's too much rallying for her at this point. If she is to rise up though, someone will have to argue in her favor because I just am not fit for arguing in her favor clearly. However, it appears I just underestimate her earlygame, and thus I should rectify my fault. Klein is never gonna be above Fir again, until someone else makes a clear argument, because clearly I'm not fit to defend Klein either.

Red Fox, I'm sorry this one got a bit personal. So may we now put this behind us?

[Quasar]

Posting with quotes doesn't seem to work properly for me, doesn't allow posting at all. Gives a time out. That's what I get for not trying to slack for once.

Reikken>6 offensive units in ch 1, yes. 3 of which you won't be using later (one doesn't even gain exp off them) and so have no reason to give kills. It's a similar story for the rest of the chapters.

It's probable Wolt won't be used later but that's no excuse to have Marcus damage two enemies and have Alan, Lance and Roy take the rest of the map on by themselves. If you are given resources with no cost (unit slot) there is no reason for you to not use them effectively. If you have enough time to prance around killing things with only three characters you might as well have used all the characters available, clear the chapter faster and hit the next arena and use the bonus turns you just saved this way to upgrade your characters.

Reikken>Alan, Lance, and Roy need not all be 'lined up' at once. 3 turns of both next to Lance, and 3 turns each of Lance next just one of Alan or Roy makes for +6 support turns for each, and is spent over only 9 turns. Out of ~17. Leaving 8 turns where none of that's happening. ie the number of turns spent attacking (4+4) assuming every single attack is on player phase. He exceeds the quota very very easily.

Now to reality: Make 40% of attacks on enemy phase, and even increase non-kill attacks by 2, and you have 6 turns spent attacking. Obviously not every attacking turn is impossible to build supports on, so make even just 1 of those work for supports, and you have ~12 turns for supports. 4 of all 3 together and 4 each of one of the two = 8 support turns per chapter with each supporter. Even blank out a turn completely for no reason, and that's 7-8. 7.33. It's 85 turns to A, but also 45 turns to B Roy, after which you no longer need to care about building supports with Roy and so can focus entirely on Alan-Lance. With this, it's just over 6 chapters to reach B Alan/Roy, which would be a few turns into ch 7. Factoring in that some of the earlier chapters (1, 2) are shorter, and later ones (lol ch8) are longer puts that more at the end of ch 7. Or more likely midway through ch 7 for one (Alan) and near the start of ch 8 for the other (Roy). Which correlates pretty exactly with my own experience, btw.

When I decide where I end my turn support gain is probably the least priority I have. First of all I'm going to look at how many enemies can attack the character if I stay there. If it's the furthest I can go I will always go there. If it's not possible I choose the safest option closest to the throne. Let's say Alan has finished off an enemy and is slightly further behind. I'm not moving Lance next to him to say hello, I'm moving forward with the rest of the team. I guess to simplify it I'm constantly thinking "If I don't move as far as possible this time will it cost me a turn more to complete the chapter?".

I'm not going to say my experience is better than yours but I've had very different results myself. I don't have numbers to specifically back this off right now since I haven't really thought about it in that much detail when playing but I'll keep it in mind next time I play. Should also get turn counts.

Joker>Let's go back to Walt for a second.

Him being forced for 4 chapters is the only reason he's above Karel and Dorothy. This being because you can just ditch Walt later. But by the whole game logic (which I do not agree with at all as it's only purpose is to fuck over utility characters), Walt CANNOT be ditched and we have to deal with his suck longer, which cancels out the whole reason why Karel and Dorothy were put under him.

Either go the whole way with this logic or don't go anywhere with it. Marcus in High or Walt below Karel and Dorothy.

Yes, Walt>Karel>Dorothy is outdated which is exactly why I said it needs to be looked at. There are some other similiar situations currently in the tier list.

Robo Ky>I'll let you guys tug at it a bit more before we decide if the rules stops or not

Be my quest if you want to argue about the rules but I won't be participating.

[Florete]

Regardless of the fact that you've put Fir over Klein, I'd still like a formal debate if you're ever up to it to be 100% sure.

Red Fox, I'm sorry this one got a bit personal. So may we now put this behind us?

Of course. I don't hold grudges.

And I also agree with Marcus in High. IIRC, part of what makes him awesome early on is that he's flexible enough to kill when you need a kill or to just weaken when you want someone else to kill, and when everyone else is at their worst, that is very valuable.

[grandjackal]

Regardless of the fact that you've put Fir over Klein, I'd still like a formal debate if you're ever up to it to be 100% sure.

*quivers* I don't think I'm unbiased enough at this point.

I think the main reason it got to me this bad was that the argument started when I was basically a nooblet wanting to win. Guess it turns out I'm a tad too biased against the unpromoted swordy. Perhaps FEDS had a bad effect on me.

Of course. I don't hold grudges.

And I also agree with Marcus in High. IIRC, part of what makes him awesome early on is that he's flexible enough to kill when you need a kill or to just weaken when you want someone else to kill, and when everyone else is at their worst, that is very valuable.

I do too, and in fact I see no reason he shouldn't be. He can even make up for bad lategame with the fact he can basically wield any weapon he wants. Reavers, Slayers, Silvers, ranged weapons, what have you.

Anyone against Marcus in high? With how many are for it, it looks too damn likely at this point, but if anyone hsa a reasonable reason against this...

With this, I might as well return Zealot to upper mid since he's basically Marcus with better lategame durability but without the epic chapters, though I'm not 100% that his minions should follow..

Edited August 28, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Dat Nick]

I'm going to go back to the whole game rule again just for further rallying for Marcus, although I still think him in High is absurd:

Who better to look at this than Marcus himself? Obviously we are going to use Marcus a lot in earlygame. A while past his forced chapters is when he stops being THAT good and when the whole game rule just plain looks shaky: we've used Marcus, we've reaped the benefits, he's wearing out his use, and we don't lose anything by shelving him when his win wears out. But no, let's just keep fielding him for no good reason other than that we need to fuck over utility characters in a tier list.

[grandjackal]

Marcus is great early, perfectly fine midgame (he's not outdoing, but he's on par), and his only lategame problem is offense, of which is fixable. The fact his problem is fixable should be all the reason to put him in high. Someone like Walt? Nothing can solve his problem, but has the benefit of jointime, support battery and being forced anyways. Thus why he's far lower.

You be overblowing things, people.

[Dat Nick]

and his only lategame problem is offense, of which is fixable.

Uh, this is exactly what we're debating here. This is not a problem to be held against him. Unless you can think of some honest to goodness reason why Marcus should actually be played once he wears out his period of win.

oh, and if whole game performance was actually a good idea, Jeigan would be Est tier. Below est.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Joker

[CATS]

After all, using him as if he were a normal unit rather than a jeigen unit, then dumping him? That's quite of exp we just flushed down the drain. This isn't exp stealing from years of yore, this is literally just making it vanish.

"Making the exp vanish" is irrelevant to anything; exp has no worth in and of itself. Stats are what matter.

[Quasar]

oh, and if whole game performance was actually a good idea, Jeigan would be Est tier. Below est.

Let's see if it works now.

Why? Let's take Marcus instead of Jagen though. He's great for early game but why would he suddenly be so bad? It's not like he'll gain any negative utility, you don't really need to wall him or anything.

[Dat Nick]

And let's also factor in that Marcus's job is to weaken, not to kill anything: He's not sucking up that much EXP to begin with.

Furthermore, oh noes, I killed one or two enemies with Marcus. baaaaawwwww.

Why? Let's take Marcus instead of Jagen though. He's great for early game but why would he suddenly be so bad? It's not like he'll gain any negative utility, you don't really need to wall him or anything.

Erm, I don't think you're understanding my position. I'm using Jagen as an example as to why I don't buy into this whole game rule.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

and his only lategame problem is offense, of which is fixable.

Uh, this is exactly what we're debating here. This is not a problem to be held against him. Unless you can think of some honest to goodness reason why Marcus should actually be played once he wears out his period of win.

oh, and if whole game performance was actually a good idea, Jeigan would be Est tier. Below est.

No he wouldn't. Being suck at one point of time, of which is easily fixable, does not Est tier get you. He enver at one point in time fails as hard as Walt.

After all, using him as if he were a normal unit rather than a jeigen unit, then dumping him? That's quite of exp we just flushed down the drain. This isn't exp stealing from years of yore, this is literally just making it vanish.

"Making the exp vanish" is irrelevant to anything; exp has no worth in and of itself. Stats are what matter.

Except that's just EXP we made vanish. My whole team could have had better stats if we just made Marcus vanish suddenly. Using someone and then getting rid of them is throwing exp and thus stats in the trash. It's not like the piddling bit he took from being utility early on, but rather serious kills throughout most of the game. It's not stealing kills, but it's certainly making them vanish.

He doesn't seriously start sucking until lategame, of which he's STILL usable, how does this not deserve high tier even in my system?

Edited August 28, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Quasar]

Erm, I don't think you're understanding my position. I'm using Jagen as an example as to why I don't buy into this whole game rule.

What's the difference? I don't see it. Jagen in worse than Marcus in relation to enemies but so is the rest of your team.

[grandjackal]

Jeigen in FEDS is still high up regardless, and he's measured throught he game because his problem is FIXABLE. Just not in hte same way (Marcus can use whatever weapon he damn well wants, Marcus can just go bishop and keep having a form of utility).