Efficiency Tier List?

[Tangerine]

If you weren't hostile towards the idea, this argument would have never happened. If you honestly believe that people are entitled to their methods of doing tier lists, THEN ENTITLE THEM TO IT.

When did I tell anyone to stop doing it? I said I personally didn't see the point and was interested in contributing myself. YOU said that WE should stop doing ranked tier lists. Seriously guy, come on.

[Florete]

It isn't silly. Forcing you to make use of units you wouldn't normally use is a great idea.

You can't be serious. That's not anything close to a "good idea," it's an absolute absurdity. The game forces me to use characters I don't actually want to use. That's utterly retarded and inefficient and it doesn't reflect the way a person would normally play if they just want to beat the game.

Nino moves from bottom to above garbage like Wallace. Not really a significant boost.

Rewarded for something that gives no benefit other than this reward. This rank assigns its own value to something that is otherwise meaningless, and this is reflected in your list. Whether it's significant or not is secondary, the fact that it can be used as an advantage is dumb.

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? I picked a random higher tier unit as an example and you're going to jump on me because I didn't list every unit in the game?

The point is, early promotion does not make the game a cakewalk like you suggested. That's a load of horse shit. The second best unit in the game failing to double unless he's at a high level should be obvious proof of that.

I shouldn't have even put the Alan part in there, but that doesn't change the fact that your earlier statement, which this current argument stems from, was wrong.

Most units should never be raised with doubling those enemies in mind, because most units will never double them until end game. I'd rather be better for the harder parts of the game and worse for endgame than worse in the harder parts and great in endgame.

And then who will you have at Endgame? You need someone who is able to fight. Percival is only one unit and you've already gimped your other Top/High tier units by promoting them too early.

[Tangerine]

You can't be serious. That's not anything close to a "good idea," it's an absolute absurdity. The game forces me to use characters I don't actually want to use. That's utterly retarded and inefficient and it doesn't reflect the way a person would normally play if they just want to beat the game.

The ranks aren't for people who just want to "beat the game". That should be fairly obvious to anyone.

Rewarded for something that gives no benefit other than this reward. This rank assigns its own value to something that is otherwise meaningless, and this is reflected in your list. Whether it's significant or not is secondary, the fact that it can be used as an advantage is dumb.

And I think unranked tier lists are dumb. Does that make me right? I'm not going to try to change your opinion of the ranks.

And then who will you have at Endgame? You need someone who is able to fight. Percival is only one unit and you've already gimped your other Top/High tier units by promoting them too early.

Rutger, Fir, Echidna, Percy, Gonzales, Lance, Shin, Thany, Tate and Miledy all hit that 20 AS mark even with early promotion. Promoting at level 13-15 isn't going to hurt your end game that much, but it's going to help your early/mid quite a bit.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Moribalken

[Florete]

The ranks aren't for people who just want to "beat the game". That should be fairly obvious to anyone.

So you understand that ranks aren't for everyone. How then, can you even say this:

And I think unranked tier lists are dumb.

?

You're not making much sense. At this point it seems like you're disagreeing with unranked lists simply to disagree, like Crash and his hatred of Priscilla. Let me point you to this again:

It's also retarded as hell how you seem to think there's a point in tiering with ranks but no point without. In the end, neither one has any point except to entertain those discussing and doing the tiering. Tier lists are not character guides, they don't cure cancer, and they don't get America out of its financial crisis. They are, in the end, arbitrary and pointless tools of entertainment, much like the games they are based on.

Does that make me right? I'm not going to try to change your opinion of the ranks.

Don't go throwing "opinion" around too lightly here. Whether or not tier lists should reflect rankings is opinion, however, what I said on the matter about how rankings give reward to otherwise useless attributes and hinder you in terms of game completion was hard fact since the ranks themselves are nothing more than stars and letters. They don't actually help you in any way, and this is why we've abandoned them here.

Rutger, Fir, Echidna, Percy, Gonzales, Lance, Shin, Thany, Tate and Miledy all hit that 20 AS mark even with early promotion. Promoting at level 13-15 isn't going to hurt your end game that much, but it's going to help your early/mid quite a bit.

Then that's an advantage for those characters. This is not going to make the game a cakewalk like you suggested since everyone you mentioned aside from maybe Percival and Miledy have some kind of issue (Fir and Rutger have relatively low Str, Thany and Tate aren't very durable, etc.). Or, so you don't think I'm taking you out of context:

If you're not taking funds and EXP into account, everyone can and should promote early. This makes the game a breeze for the most part.

It doesn't make the game "a breeze" either.

HOWEVER, even IF it did make the game a breeze...So what? We still tier FE8 and 9 despite how easy those games are, and they already lack ranks.

[Tangerine]

You're not making much sense. At this point it seems like you're disagreeing with unranked lists simply to disagree, like Crash and his hatred of Priscilla. Let me point you to this again:

It's also retarded as hell how you seem to think there's a point in tiering with ranks but no point without. In the end, neither one has any point except to entertain those discussing and doing the tiering. Tier lists are not character guides, they don't cure cancer, and they don't get America out of its financial crisis. They are, in the end, arbitrary and pointless tools of entertainment, much like the games they are based on.

The thing is I don't actually think they're dumb, I just didn't see the point originally. I was using it as an example; I THOUGHT the following sentence would have made that much obvious. Guess not.

Don't go throwing "opinion" around too lightly here. Whether or not tier lists should reflect rankings is opinion, however, what I said on the matter about how rankings give reward to otherwise useless attributes and hinder you in terms of game completion was hard fact since the ranks themselves are nothing more than stars and letters. They don't actually help you in any way, and this is why we've abandoned them here.

And that isn't a bad thing for some people; some people WANT the challenge. I think ranked runs themselves are fun and much more of a challenge when you get into them. I ultimately dislike them because of how time consuming they are, however. I don't have the time to plan out my teams and moves anymore.

Who cares if the ranks restrict you? That's the point. Some characters are better in a ranked run than they are in a non-ranked run and vice versa.

Then that's an advantage for those characters. This is not going to make the game a cakewalk like you suggested since everyone you mentioned aside from maybe Percival and Miledy have some kind of issue (Fir and Rutger have relatively low Str, Thany and Tate aren't very durable, etc.). Or, so you don't think I'm taking you out of context:

I may have exaggerated a bit when I said it'd be a breeze, but it certainly makes it quite a bit easier.

Anyway, I need to go out for a while. I'll reply to whatever's here when I get back/tomorrow, if it has something to do with FE6. I'm not going to bother replying to any arguments about ranks and the he-said-she-said BS anymore; I already pretty much hijacked the topic with that, and I apologize for it. It'd be best to get back on topic than to keep that up.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Moribalken

[Florete]

The thing is I don't actually think they're dumb, I just didn't see the point originally. I was using it as an example; I THOUGHT the following sentence would have made that much obvious. Guess not.

So you're saying you do see the point now? Well you haven't done a whole lot to show that.

And that isn't a bad thing for some people; some people WANT the challenge. I think ranked runs themselves are fun and much more of a challenge when you get into them. I ultimately dislike them because of how time consuming they are, however. I don't have the time to plan out my teams and moves anymore.

I can't think of a single person I've met who actually likes playing with ranks over normally. I'm sure they exist, but I highly doubt there are enough to act like ranks is the better way to tier units.

In fact, in the past, it was the assumption that tiers took ranks into account that made a lot of people hate tier lists and the people involved. I'm sure I could find some of those posts for you.

Who cares if the ranks restrict you?

Lots of people on this board do. I have a feeling that most people who aren't even involved in tiers do as well.

That's the point. Some characters are better in a ranked run than they are in a non-ranked run and vice versa.

Sometimes that's fine. But then we get to previously mentioned things like Dart and Nino and how ranks affect them in ways that shouldn't actually reflect character usefulness and only do because it's a ranked run, not because what the character is able to do actually helps or hurts ranks.

To put this in a different way, take units like Kent and Sain. What they can do with relatively good offense, decent defense, and high mobility helps the Tactics rank more than most others. In this way, what they are able to do actually helps ranks in the end as well and thus would be reflected in the list. Same idea for Priscilla and Serra. What they do helps both the team and the rank. However, Nino's contribution is only a plus because it helps a rank. She's being rewarded for something that doesn't really have any value. How Nino helps the rank is not something that is actually related to character usefulness. It makes catching up a good thing in its own right when it should really be just that; catching up. It's like being sick from school for a week, doing all the work in one day and getting a higher grade because you did it all at once, when the kid who was actually there the whole time is technically at the same level but now has less reward for it.

I may have exaggerated a bit when I said it'd be a breeze, but it certainly makes it quite a bit easier.

And that doesn't matter.

[grandjackal]

For fuck's sakes, do we have to continue with being butthurt? Let's move on, before we get a brain hemmorage. Also Mori, knock it off. If you continue with this, I'll report you for trolling, because that's how it surely seems to me.

Anyways, Ellen and Saul now? You guys continue with that, I'm trying to keep out of arguments until they're more finalized.

[Vykan12]

For more narrow-minded retardation, see here.

[Tangerine]

For fuck's sakes, do we have to continue with being butthurt? Let's move on, before we get a brain hemmorage. Also Mori, knock it off. If you continue with this, I'll report you for trolling, because that's how it surely seems to me.

Anyways, Ellen and Saul now? You guys continue with that, I'm trying to keep out of arguments until they're more finalized.

Considering I'm the one that said I WOULD stop responding to anything involving the rank argument, I don't see how I'm the troll. I could keep arguing as long as them if I wanted to; the difference is I don't mind being the one to stop it. Your first sentence pretty much sums it up.

For more narrow-minded retardation, see here.

Is it wrong that when I was clicking that link I expected to see your profile on the other end?

Edited November 21, 2009 by Moribalken

[grandjackal]

Considering I'm the one that said I WOULD stop responding to anything involving the rank argument, I don't see how I'm the troll. I could keep arguing as long as them if I wanted to; the difference is I don't mind being the one to stop it. Your first sentence pretty much sums it up.

FE6 ranks are a joke and we only do ranked tier lists for the games that have ranks available. A tier list for us is pointless, though plenty have tried.

Your words, you think FE6 ranks are a joke apparently, so you came in here to bash us for not doing a ranked list?

You sir...

Is it wrong that when I was clicking that link I expected to see your profile on the other end?

Are trolling so hard right now.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Tangerine]

Your words, you think FE6 ranks are a joke apparently, so you came in here to bash us for not doing a ranked list?

You sir...

Are trolling so hard right now.

Yeah, FE6 ranks are a joke. That's kind of why I was interested in getting involved with this. These are ALSO my words from the topic:

I could see the merit of an unranked list for FE6 at least. It'd probably be more faithful to the idea of a ranked run than an actual FE6 ranked run.

Maybe if you stopped picking and choosing what you're going to believe I said you wouldn't be butt hurt.

[grandjackal]

Your words, you think FE6 ranks are a joke apparently, so you came in here to bash us for not doing a ranked list?

You sir...

Are trolling so hard right now.

Yeah, FE6 ranks are a joke. That's kind of why I was interested in getting involved with this. These are ALSO my words from the topic:

I could see the merit of an unranked list for FE6 at least. It'd probably be more faithful to the idea of a ranked run than an actual FE6 ranked run.

Maybe if you stopped picking and choosing what you're going to believe I said you wouldn't be butt hurt.

Here's an idea: Start your own topic of a ranked tier list.

Am I a genius or what?

[Tangerine]

Am I a genius or what?

No, because you're COMPLETELY missing the point. FE6 ranked is a joke. This efficiency tier list is a more effective way to tier FE6 overall. I don't know what's so hard for you people to understand.

[BigMeatyClawz]

Am I a genius or what?

No, because you're COMPLETELY missing the point. FE6 ranked is a joke. This efficiency tier list is a more effective way to tier FE6 overall. I don't know what's so hard for you people to understand.

Isn't that what EVERYONE else has been saying? If I had any doubts about you being a troll there gone.

I started to respond to your next post, but realized everything I was saying had been said before so I'll stop feeding the troll.

Edited November 21, 2009 by oval

[Tangerine]

Isn't that what EVERYONE else has been saying? If I had any doubts about you being a troll there gone.

No, people were arguing with me because they got defensive over nothing and thought I was insulting the way they tiered when I had been saying the ENTIRE TOPIC that I was interested in doing it myself after having the Tactics/Combat cleared up. Everyone was so bullheaded and oblivious that they didn't even try to see what I was saying after that. It was more a mixture of my own poor choice of words and their hostility though.

[Florete]

Sometimes continuing to feed the troll is okay. This time I think it would be better to stop, though.

I mean, I could continue, but this just isn't fun anymore.

Rutger for Top of top pl0x.

[Vykan12]

No, people were arguing with me because they got defensive over nothing and thought I was insulting the way they tiered when I had been saying the ENTIRE TOPIC that I was interested in doing it myself after having the Tactics/Combat cleared up. Everyone was so bullheaded and oblivious that they didn't even try to see what I was saying after that. It was more a mixture of my own poor choice of words and their hostility though.

You are unbelievably dense. Do you realize anything you write?

We could tier them based on story contributions if we wanted.

Sound like a better idea than this, actually.

A tier list without ranks is a joke to me, but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea.

And I think unranked tier lists are dumb.

Insults

RD brought in a bunch of casual FE fans who really shouldn't be arguing tiers in the first place. The FE7 tier community is of much higher quality.

Eliticism

I said I personally didn't see the point and was interested in contributing myself.

Contradicting yourself

Then you have the audacity to act as though we’re the only ones acting hostile, or if you are as well, that we instigated it. If you have any decency, how about you read through some of the tier lists on Serenes before spewing your opinion about how unranked lists make no sense and what have you?

[Tangerine]

Sound like a better idea than this, actually.

..Pretty sure both of us were kidding around there. They seemed to realize it. "Sounds like a better idea than THIS", as in what we're doing now. Just thought I'd point that out for you because you've proven unable to see anything at anything but face value.

And I think unranked tier lists are dumb.

Seriously? I pretty much SAID I didn't mean that in the exact same post, though I did have to point it out earlier. The fact that you're calling me dense when you're completely oblivious to what's going on around you is making me laugh uncontrollably.

Eliticism

LOL. Look at the post I was replying to. If you're going to call me elitist, you're calling everyone involved in this discussion elitist.

Contradicting yourself

Uh, no.

And the tier list was only a joke to me before I realized both this and the FE7 tier list had the same rules and I just misunderstood the rules for the FE7 one.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Moribalken

[grandjackal]

Isn't that what EVERYONE else has been saying? If I had any doubts about you being a troll there gone.

No, people were arguing with me because they got defensive over nothing and thought I was insulting the way they tiered when I had been saying the ENTIRE TOPIC that I was interested in doing it myself after having the Tactics/Combat cleared up. Everyone was so bullheaded and oblivious that they didn't even try to see what I was saying after that. It was more a mixture of my own poor choice of words and their hostility though.

Poor choice of hostile words, where hostility breeds hostility.

Now if you have no problem with it, fine. However, just do relax ok? Just ask "So how does this work exactly?", instead of entering in with the tone of someone who seems more intent in trolling than just generally curious.

So now that we have that cleared up (I hope), may we move on?

EDIT: WOW, guess not!

Edited November 21, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Narga_Rocks]

Sound like a better idea than this, actually.

..Pretty sure both of us were kidding around there. They seemed to realize it. "Sounds like a better idea than THIS", as in what we're doing now. Just thought I'd point that out for you because you've proven unable to see anything at anything but face value.

And I think unranked tier lists are dumb.

Seriously? I pretty much SAID I didn't mean that in the exact same post, though I did have to point it out earlier. The fact that you're calling me dense when you're completely oblivious to what's going on around you is making me laugh uncontrollably.

It isn't so easy as stating you are joking about something or you don't mean it. It is like saying: I hate your guts ;) or I hate your guts or things like that. Once you say the words, they can't easily be taken back. Sticking something in strikethrough or putting a smiley (or winky) face after an offensive comment, or just typing the words and hoping people will read between the lines and try to determine whether or not you really mean it to sound so offensive... I guess I can understand from your perspective we are blowing things out of proportion, but from our perspective hurtful things were said (and some of us may have then responded in kind, and if that is so I'm not defending it (they can defend themselves)).

And the tier list was only a joke to me before I realized both this and the FE7 tier list had the same rules and I just misunderstood the rules for the FE7 one.

I suppose I can almost give you that one. If you operate under the assumption that the tier list just cares about 610 turns, and that is cake with almost any team, it would seem difficult to actually rate units to how they contribute to something that anyone can accomplish.

I'm tempted to argue that this is where you stop and consider whether or not your understanding of what we are doing is logical. Surely we didn't get to 78 x 20 posts with such a simple premise. So coming for clarification is understandable, but coming for clarification while operating under your assumptions and making statements based on the (logically incomplete) understanding is asking for trouble. Especially with uncareful wording.

But it is the internet. I think lots of us don't stop to think about whether or not something we think we know even makes sense. Of course, just because some of us don't, that doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't either.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

We could tier them based on story contributions if we wanted.

Sound like a better idea than this, actually.

..Pretty sure both of us were kidding around there. They seemed to realize it. "Sounds like a better idea than THIS", as in what we're doing now. Just thought I'd point that out for you because you've proven unable to see anything at anything but face value.

For the record, I wasn't joking. And I'm pretty sure when YOU gave your reply you were, in fact, referring to the tier list, since that same post included:

I just don't see the point in a tier without ranks. You can just do whatever you want. For the record, I do think the tier lists for any of the FE games without ranks is a joke.

You may have changed by now, since you've already said you see the point in a tier list without ranks, but it doesn't look as though that's what you meant before, which is what you're claiming.

[Tangerine]

It isn't so easy as stating you are joking about something or you don't mean it. It is like saying: I hate your guts ;) or I hate your guts or things like that. Once you say the words, they can't easily be taken back. Sticking something in strikethrough or putting a smiley (or winky) face after an offensive comment, or just typing the words and hoping people will read between the lines and try to determine whether or not you really mean it to sound so offensive... I guess I can understand from your perspective we are blowing things out of proportion, but from our perspective hurtful things were said (and some of us may have then responded in kind, and if that is so I'm not defending it (they can defend themselves)).

In the first situation it would have been obvious to anyone who wasn't getting stupidly defensive that I was joking. For the second part, what I did wasn't the same as your examples. I was using THAT as an example to make my point. That me believing the tier list is dumb doesn't actually make it dumb for other people, not that I think the tier list is actually dumb.

I suppose I can almost give you that one. If you operate under the assumption that the tier list just cares about 610 turns, and that is cake with almost any team, it would seem difficult to actually rate units to how they contribute to something that anyone can accomplish.

I'm starting to wonder what you're even doing here. I'm impressed by how much you differ from the rest of the people in this discussion; you know what's actually going on.

For the record, I wasn't joking. And I'm pretty sure when YOU gave your reply you were, in fact, referring to the tier list, since that same post included:

No, I really wasn't.

You may have changed by now, since you've already said you see the point in a tier list without ranks, but it doesn't look as though that's what you meant before, which is what you're claiming.

Because at the time I thought all of the lists were using the same rules. What I HADN'T yet realized was that I misunderstood the rules for the FE7 list. I realized that pretty quickly, but nobody seemed to want to let go.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Moribalken

[Vykan12]

Because at the time I thought all of the lists were using the same rules. What I HADN'T yet realized was that I misunderstood the rules for the FE7 list. I realized that pretty quickly, but nobody seemed to want to let go.

Quit trying to play so innocent. If you managed to offend Red Fox, Cyrus, Dondon, FE3player, myself, and probably others who are only lurking here, it wasn't just a misunderstanding on your part. You clearly insulted the way we ran tier lists here (among other things), so instead of deflecting all the time, just admit it and move on.

[grandjackal]

I'll put it this way even. If you don't move on, we'll just choose to ignore you. After all, you already derailed the topic once, we don't have to tolerate it again.

So, the current discussion was Saul and Ellen. Was it that quickly shot down?

[Shuuda]

Alright you guys, quit it. It's too early in the morning for me to wade through all this shit to see who's trolling and who's being a retard. So the next that crosses the line will get a warn.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Shuuda