FE9 Tier List

[Vykan12]

Since Rhys promotes around chapter 15 Soren has somewhat good existant offense for 4~ chapters. But then Rhys promotes 20/1 Rhys~ 20.5 Mag 12.4 AS if using forged weightless Light compared to 20/5 Soren 14.7 Mag 15.2 AS

If we're forging Rhys a tome, we can do the same for Soren to cut into the mag gap. Granted increasing Mt is more expensive than decreasing Wt, but still.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

And Soren's doubling more often plus he's got Adept. Then there's also weapon effectiveness on Soren's side while Rhys is seeing nothing of the sort.

Oh and if Soren's not doubling with his AS lead, he can switch to Elthunder and that'd be just 1 less damage than what Rhys is doing and this is without forging.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Shadow Mir]

Rhys also benefits someone with his support. A with Mia actually allows her to ORKO stuff w/o a crit. A with Ike? I make one of the most durable units in the game even more durable. Great. B Stefan? I give him 5 avoid whoop de doo.

Mia's rather sucky, and the support is one-way.

[Hexmaster44]

As proved by my rather sucky arguement in the previous topic. (Well, technically it was the original Hexmaster44, but he got deleted :( ) Now I have to restart my postcount that was 50 or so. Whoop.

[Zkirsche]

Resolve Ena prevents the game from being un-winnable, and the same applies to Nasir. It only applies to a very small percentage of playthroughs, but it still easily keeps them out of bottom tier.

Still, is it likely that the game becomes unwinnable? No. So this advantage is small. I don't think it erases the fact that Bastian can give out supports and more availability.

[-Cynthia-]

Still, is it likely that the game becomes unwinnable? No. So this advantage is small. I don't think it erases the fact that Bastian can give out supports and more availability.

Bastian doesn't give out very good supports though. Lucia is pretty unlikely to be fielded, Volke poibably won't be fielded once Bastian arrives save Chapter 27, and Makalov is probably full. Although speaking of Lucia, she should probably move up if Bastian is, since they're similar enough statistically that the same logic should apply. Frankly, neither Lucia nor Bastian are really that terrible at jointime, merely somewhat below average. I could actually see them above the hawks, a lot of their offensive problems can be fixed with forges and at least they don't have transform issues. Yes the hawks have flyer utility, but also a ballista weakness, and they don't even have Canto in 9.

Also, if Ike gets that stat screwed that we need Ena to save him we can solve the problem with stat boosters.

Edited June 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Bastian doesn't give out very good supports though. Lucia is pretty unlikely to be fielded, Volke poibably won't be fielded once Bastian arrives save Chapter 27, and Makalov is probably full. Although speaking of Lucia, she should probably move up if Bastian is, since they're similar enough statistically that the same logic should apply. Frankly, neither Lucia nor Bastian are really that terrible at jointime, merely somewhat below average. I could actually see them above the hawks, a lot of their offensive problems can be fixed with forges and at least they don't have transform issues. Yes the hawks have flyer utility, but also a ballista weakness, and they don't even have Canto in 9.

While Haar is probably a better support for him than Bastian, you can't just dismiss him that easily.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

So...No one's gonna argue against Tormod rising up?

Mkay then, how does at least above Gatrie sound?

[-Cynthia-]

So...No one's gonna argue against Tormod rising up?

Mkay then, how does at least above Gatrie sound?

What's the reason for moving up Tormod again? If it's the early promotion thing, remember that most other units should be promoting around Tormod's jointime, which makes it somewhat less impressive. It also means we have to hold onto a Seal until Tormod is level 10, Chapter 16 at the earliest and that's only with BEXP. Tormod's problem is really requiring excessive resources to be good, he's just so severely underleved at jointime.

As for Bastian supporting Makalov, he can maybe get a Makalov support, though Haar gives better bonuses,matches Mov better, and starts sooner. It's really difficult to see it as a significant positive for Bastian.

Edited June 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

Both Bastian and Haar give the same bonuses. >_>;

[Dr. Tarrasque]

As for Bastian supporting Makalov, he can maybe get a Makalov support, though Haar gives better bonuses,matches Mov better, and starts sooner. It's really difficult to see it as a significant positive for Bastian.

It's the same bonuses due to both having the same affinity and the rest is obviously why I said "While Haar is probably a better support for him than Bastian". No1 said Bastian is a better support, just that Bastian support isn't a far fetched possibility and it's still a good point for Bastian.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

What's the reason for moving up Tormod again? If it's the early promotion thing, remember that most other units should be promoting around Tormod's jointime, which makes it somewhat less impressive. It also means we have to hold onto a Seal until Tormod is level 10, Chapter 16 at the earliest and that's only with BEXP. Tormod's problem is really requiring excessive resources to be good, he's just so severely underleved at jointime.

Not really. He levels up fast and his two best supports give offense boost, so he'll have max attack boost at the end of the day. He gets a bit while it's early, along with 10% more crit if Muarim's around. Helps him suck less as we train him up.

It's the payoff we get, which is a quite balanced statistic mage, with the most strength out of all the reasonable ones, and just a tidbit less speed than Soren, so he'll be doubling as well. As promotion rolls in, he gets staffs, which is always good. However, his offense will be much greater as he can wield heavier tomes and has a full attack boosting support. Even out of all of them, he's the most durable mage. On top of that, Celerity helps increase his killzone range, and makes sure he doesn't lag behind, along with further increasing his healing range. By the time lategame rolls around, he's easily the best sage on your team.

Compare that to Gatrie, who is never good at combat, never sees action, and only has earlygame to his name as he's otherwise just some guy walking around who's kinda hard to kill (though magic easily devours him). I mean really, why is Gatrie even in lower mid? He has earlygame and that's it. At least Tauroneo has Resolve so he actually has some actual offense, and didn't need to be trained up.

As for Bastian supporting Makalov, he can maybe get a Makalov support, though Haar gives better bonuses,matches Mov better, and starts sooner. It's really difficult to see it as a significant positive for Bastian.

Uhhh...Haar and Bastian give the same boosts, and Haar is more likely to be with Mak because Mak on the first turn is always able to move out of Bastian's support radius.

Haar also doesn't suck.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Kuja

[Zkirsche]

Level 12 Resolve Ena has: 27 HP, 75 Avo, 28 Def

Ashnard: 55 Atk, 144 Hit

Berserk Ashnard: 60 Atk, 160 Hit

Resolve Ena gets OHKO'ed at high hit rates against either form (normal ashnard has 81.09% real hit against resolve Ena). I'd also like to point out that Resolve Ena doesn't double Ashanrd either.

So yeah, healping complete an unwinnable game? Ena doesn't do that.

She does, however, have transformation issues, 2 chapters of availability and 0 chance for supports. Unlike Bastian

Edited June 15, 2009 by kirsche

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Question, is Ena forced in the final chapter or C28?

[-Cynthia-]

Not really. He levels up fast and his two best supports give offense boost, so he'll have max attack boost at the end of the day. He gets a bit while it's early, along with 10% more crit if Muarim's around. Helps him suck less as we train him up.

It's the payoff we get, which is a quite balanced statistic mage, with the most strength out of all the reasonable ones, and just a tidbit less speed than Soren, so he'll be doubling as well. As promotion rolls in, he gets staffs, which is always good. However, his offense will be much greater as he can wield heavier tomes and has a full attack boosting support. Even out of all of them, he's the most durable mage. On top of that, Celerity helps increase his killzone range, and makes sure he doesn't lag behind, along with further increasing his healing range. By the time lategame rolls around, he's easily the best sage on your team.

You're not considering how many resources we actually have to pump into Tormod. Tormod is level 7 at a time when most of your team is nearing promotion, IE 17+. We can save seal for him, but promoting Tormod at 10/1 kind of screws up his lategame potential, which is the only time he becomes above average anyway. That leaves the option of pumping him with 6 or more levels of BEXP just to become competitive, which is difficult to justify.

Also, most durable?

20/1 Tormod 31 HP 17 AS 9 Def 17 Res 47 Avo

20/6 Callil 32 HP 18 AS 8 Def 17 Res 52 Avo

20/7 Soren (B Ike) 33 HP 20 AS 7 Def 18 Res 68 Avo

I think 20/1 Tormod at Chapter 20 is fairly generous myself(14 levels in 4 chapters). It's not like Tormod's closing the gap either, since both Soren and Callil end up getting more Avo from their supports than Tormod does.

Tormod has 10% more Def growth than Soren, but 15% less than Callil. Callil has 120% Avo growth, Tormod 125%, Soren 120%. So he really is never more durable, in fact he's almost always less so. He might beat Ilyana or Bastian, but that would still make him just average.

Compare that to Gatrie, who is never good at combat, never sees action, and only has earlygame to his name as he's otherwise just some guy walking around who's kinda hard to kill (though magic easily devours him). I mean really, why is Gatrie even in lower mid? He has earlygame and that's it. At least Tauroneo has Resolve so he actually has some actual offense, and didn't need to be trained up.

You're underrating Gatrie severly again. He still can 2RKO most enemies even without doubling, and his durability allows him additional Enemy Phase action over someone like Tormod. Unlike Tormod however, Gatrie doesn't require signifcant babying to be good. If we're willing to give Tormod large amounts of BEXP, Gatrie can get KW access/Speedwing/ a Seal gives him +2 AS as well.

Tormod eventually does become better than Gatrie(unless you don't BEXP Tormod at all, then he's just a waste), but it takes quite some time for Tormod to become above average considering all the resources he's been using.

Uhhh...Haar and Bastian give the same boosts, and Haar is more likely to be with Mak because Mak on the first turn is always able to move out of Bastian's support radius.

Whoops I forgot for a moment that Haar gives out a Wind, not a Thunder, he just supports with Thunder. Anyway, because of the points that everyone seems to agree wtih me on, we can't count supports as much of a + for Bastian, though compared to Ena his supports are fantastic.

Edited June 15, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Question, is Ena forced in the final chapter or C28?

She is in Endgame, yes, but i don't see that as a positive, otherwise ike should be in super top tier.

[Vykan12]

Also, if Ike gets that stat screwed that we need Ena to save him we can solve the problem with stat boosters.

Ena will nonetheless kill Ashnard quicker and by giving her resolve, I’m letting those stat boosters go to anyone, not just Ike.

Level 12 Resolve Ena has: 27 HP, 75 Avo, 28 Def

Ashnard: 55 Atk, 144 Hit

Berserk Ashnard: 60 Atk, 160 Hit

Resolve Ena gets OHKO'ed at high hit rates against either form

I suppose you’ve never tried this then. If Ena is 2HKOed, then all she needs is for Ashnard to attack her on enemy phase, then she can safely counter while in resolve hp. If she’s not 2HKOed, then attacking on player phase isn’t an issue.

(normal ashnard has 81.09% real hit against resolve Ena). I'd also like to point out that Resolve Ena doesn't double Ashanrd either.

Resolve Ena has 30 base speed while Ashnard has 27 spd. Zomg Ena needs 1-2 level-ups for that to happen, and she joins at lv --/10, meaning she’s under-levelled. A smidgen of combat or BEXP would fix that, and it’s obviously worth it given the returns (beating Ashnard over twice as fast).

She is in Endgame, yes, but i don't see that as a positive, otherwise ike should be in super top tier.

Not taking up a unit slot is an advantage, at least me and Mekkah agree on that. And how is Ike not taking up a slot making him super top tier by that logic?

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Question: When does Resolve come in? And how difficult would it be deciding whether you should use it on a different unit or save it for endgame?

Also, put Rolf in some joke tier >_>. If that's too bothersome, I'll remove it >_>.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Sirius

[Shadow Mir]

Question: When does Resolve come in? And how difficult would it be deciding whether you should use it on a different unit or save it for endgame?

You get Resolve in chapter 27.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You get Resolve in chapter 27.

Late in it right? Guess there's little opportunity cost there then.

[Vykan12]

I seem to have forgotten that Ashnard has 1-2 range, so Ena cannot in fact counter him on enemy phase >_>. I decided to look at Ena’s numbers more closely. If we give her the 2 levels she needs to double Ashnard at resolve hp, we have the following:

Ena lv --/12: 54 hp, 36 atk, 20 AS, 28 def

Resolve: 26 hp, 49 atk, 30 AS

Also worth looking at max potential Ena.

Ena lv --/20: 62 hp, 39 atk, 25 AS, 32 def

Resolve: 30 hp, 52 atk, 38 AS

Ashnard: 60 hp, 53 atk, 35 def

The good news for Ena here is that even her --/12 version is only 3HKOed, though that makes getting in resolve hp a bit tricky (you’ll need a physic user that doesn’t completely heal her). The bad news is she only 3RKOes, 4+ if you consider hp regeneration. The fully levelled Ena does manage a 2RKO even when considering hp regen, so that bodes well for her. It’s also worth considering that if you kept wrath, it allows her lv 12 self a pretty high chance to 1RKO Ashnard. Assuming 40 crit per hit, that’s a 64% chance right there.

So taking Ena somewhere between lv 12 and 20, or giving her a seraph robe, or wrath in addition to resolve will allow her to still beat the game in the event that Ike is colossally RNG screwed.

Doesn’t sound like much, but I’ll re-iterate Ena is competing with bottom tiers. Someone brought up Bastian supporting Haar as > that, but then Bastian is wasting a unit slot just to give Haar a negligible benefit, and that’s just when Bastian is in range (6 mov + shaky durability vs 9 mov + flying).

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Just to nitpick because it's going to come up eventually anyway so may as well get it out of the way fast: Bastian does not support Haar. The support we were talking about for Bastian was Makalov.

Oh and to prevent posting of what's already been posted before, there's some additional stuff above Ena in this post

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=444509

Edited June 16, 2009 by Sirius

[Zkirsche]

Ashnard's attack is too low in your comparison, Vykan. He has 55. I'd like to point out that I showed how Ashnard can beat a level 12 Ena easily. Hell, even a level 13 Ena can be killed in one hit with resolve activated.

Canto helps keep them in range of each other.

Also, you said that Nasir helps keep thje game being unwinnable, but in order to unlock Nasir, Ike can't be RNG screwed. I think Nasir should be moved down with Ena.

I also thinkg Largo should be closer to ranulf with what Vykan said.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

Whoops, I assumed Gurgurant had 18 Mt instead of 20. All that means is Ena needs more leveling to meet the minimum requirements, and she has a chapter full of laguz enemies as well as BEXP to work off of (you get tons of BEXP lategame).

[Mekkah]

From the videos I've seen, Ashnard just seems to love attacking up close (meaning the Dragons can counter him). Anyone else noticed that?