FE9 Tier list v3

[aku chi]

20/1 Soren/Ilyana are still 2HKO'd by the Tigers flanking Muarim at good accuracy, and are not getting Muarim into OHKO range without significant amounts of BEXP, a Fire forge and a Speedwings.

They can be dropped such that only one of those Tigers can attack the Sage. I think a Raven might also be able to attack, hence the need for the extra durability, but I'm not sure (actually, the Raven could undoubtedly be lured away if he was an issue). The Sage's 6 mov might be needed for that safer drop position I'm talking about. I'm positive that a 20/1 Soren can safely be dropped on turn 3, and I'm pretty sure that trying it with an unpromoted Mage is just asking for trouble.

Calill is NOT just siege utility. She has better offense than a 20/2 Soren at base (equal magic but better AS unless Soren gets a forge) until his higher magic growth surpasses hers (and she can take a lowly contested Spirit Dust). If Ilyana can double reliably without a Speedwings, I'm fine with her > Calill, but if she can't... Her non-doubling chip just isn't very helpful, and if she's not being fed kills she'll need considerable amounts of BEXP to keep up levels wise.

Calill can ORKO at 1-2 range, that is true. But that isn't relevant if she can't get to any enemies with her 6 mov. Soren and Ilyana face the same problem. After Chapter 20, they might be able to get a 1-2 range attack on turn 1 if they're lucky, but then they're too far behind to do anything except siege or use staves. Chapter 25 is the most likely showcase for their 1-2 range combat, because the Paladins have crappy mov and it's a rout chapter, but it's also a chapter where siege magic and healing are very valuable. Calill might be able to contribute with 1-2 range attacks for a secondary objective (getting treasure) in chapters 20, 21, 24, and 27, but only if the group she's with is all <=7-mov. And while Calill (and Soren and Ilyana) can ORKO, so can a bunch of other units with better movement and durability. The unique utility they offer is siege magic and (in Soren and Ilyana's cases) staff use.

[Radiant Dragon]

They can be dropped such that only one of those Tigers can attack the Sage. I think a Raven might also be able to attack, hence the need for the extra durability, but I'm not sure (actually, the Raven could undoubtedly be lured away if he was an issue). The Sage's 6 mov might be needed for that safer drop position I'm talking about. I'm positive that a 20/1 Soren can safely be dropped on turn 3, and I'm pretty sure that trying it with an unpromoted Mage is just asking for trouble.

I have to try the strategy myself to be sure. It would work, but only if we have enough BEXP to promote a Sage and a flier while still having enough BEXP to spread amongst the rest of the team. I remember you mentioning trying this in a draft playthrough, where spreading EXP isn't an issue, but I'm curious if it works in a regular playthrough as well. Either way, there are a multitude of ways to complete this chapter and a multitude of units to drop in front of Muarim if you don't want to just let a flier kill him for some reason, so the mages can't claim much credit here.

Calill can ORKO at 1-2 range, that is true. But that isn't relevant if she can't get to any enemies with her 6 mov. Soren and Ilyana face the same problem. After Chapter 20, they might be able to get a 1-2 range attack on turn 1 if they're lucky, but then they're too far behind to do anything except siege or use staves. Chapter 25 is the most likely showcase for their 1-2 range combat, because the Paladins have crappy mov and it's a rout chapter, but it's also a chapter where siege magic and healing are very valuable. Calill might be able to contribute with 1-2 range attacks for a secondary objective (getting treasure) in chapters 20, 21, 24, and 27, but only if the group she's with is all <=7-mov. And while Calill (and Soren and Ilyana) can ORKO, so can a bunch of other units with better movement and durability. The unique utility they offer is siege magic and (in Soren and Ilyana's cases) staff use.

As long as we're clear on that point, and people aren't going to start claiming that Calill is only good for throwing around siege tomes.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Going off-road for a bit to bring up a semi-moot point but still.

Mordecai>Lethe? I'm curious as to why. Lethe has doubling and Mordecai doesn't. She also auto-transforms and doesn't need to waste a turn to use the Laguz Stone. Both become useless lategame but Lethe IMO has a better start. I'm willing to provide more if anyone wants me to do so or argue the claim.

[Florete]

I'd sooner say Mordecai wins for Smite. +2 move to any unit, including mounted units. It keeps him useful all game.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

If that's all he's better for then I don't see why he'd still be above Lethe.

[Florete]

If that's all he's better for then I don't see why he'd still be above Lethe.

It may make some quick clears possible, a utility Lethe just doesn't have (also note that she can't Shove Jill or male Paladins). From what I recall, Lethe misses the ORKO on enemies fairly fast, as well as being cursed by all the other Laguz issues (gauge, no 1-2 range). Mordecai has decent combat when he gets there but also has something else to keep him useful all game, or at least until you get the Smite Scroll and give it to Muarim.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

You can also argue that Mordecai has the same issues with being a Laguz but I do agree on the other points.

[Radiant Dragon]

You can also argue that Mordecai has the same issues with being a Laguz but I do agree on the other points.

Except Mordecai can Smite everyone even untransformed, so his gauge is less of an issue. As for whether his Smiting makes him better than Lethe's immediate combat, I'm not sure. I'm inclined to say yes, though.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[aku chi]

Haar > Geoffrey?

Geoffrey's only advantage over Haar is a little Speed. Haar flies, has an availability lead, has better attack, and offers some unique utility as your most durable flier.

Chapter 24: Geoffrey isn't a PC here. Haar can help out in a variety of ways. He can contribute to the main charge to Arrive: he doubles (and ORKOs) more than half of the enemy units at base, including the tough Wyvern Riders/Knights. He could also head north or west to visit the houses for treasure. Haar's great durability will allow him to tank some Ballista attacks without the Full Guard (he still needs to be careful in the west, like everyone).

Chapter 25: Geoffrey has poor movement here and is not rescuable, so he's effectively trapped at the bottom of the trail. This is arguably Haar's best chapter. As the most durable flier, this puts him in an excellent position to rescue/drop someone at the top of the trail or just head up there himself to take care of business. Haar still doubles most of the enemy units, and can ORKO many more with a Brave weapon (of which he can wield 2 at base).

Chapter 26: Haar has no real mobility advantage here, so both Haar and Geoffrey will contribute to the same role. Let's compare their stats, assuming Haar's gotten 3 levels in Chapters 23-25 and Geoffrey's gotten 1 level in Chapter 25:

Haar - Level 14

48.95 HP, 22.8 Str, 8.15 Mag, 20.8 Skl, 18.05 Spd, 12.45 Lck, 21.35 Def, 10.6 Res

Geoffrey - Level 12

43.65 HP, 18.5 Str, 9.25 Mag, 17.55 Skl, 19.55 Spd, 12.2 Lck, 21.45 Def, 9.45 Res

Both units double all Warriors, Generals, Wyvern Lords, and Sages. Geoffrey can double a couple more Halberdiers and Paladins. Geoffrey might fail to 2HKO some Generals and Wyvern Lords, even with a Silver Lance forge. Haar probably needs an Arms Scroll to wield Silver weapons, but if he gets it, he can 2HKO everything. Haar can also pull off more 1-2 range 1RKOs thanks to a 4 Att advantage over Geoffrey (3 Str and 1 Mt).

Chapter 27: Again, Haar has no mobility advantage. Both units can either charge up the center or try to help get some treasure. The enemies are similar to those in chapter 26, though Geoffrey might be able to double a few more enemy types if he gained a few levels in Chapter 26 (especially if the Knight Ward was involved).

Chapter 28: Being the most durable flier, Haar is an excellent candidate to Rescue/Drop Ike over the trees. Geoffrey can be some help clearing out the starting area, or contributing to a non-flier clear of this chapter.

Endgame: This chapter is all about Ike, but Haar and Geoffrey can both be a help clearing out enemies. It's hard to say whether Geoffrey's Speed lead (which might be very large with a level lead and Knight Ward use) is more important that Haar's attack lead here. The enemies are mighty fast here, but Haar can wield a Brave weapon to pull off some 2HKOs.

This comparison seems pretty clear-cut. Haar is clearly more valuable in chapters 24, 25, and 28 and approximately equally valuable in chapters 26, 27, and Endgame.

[Radiant Dragon]

I agree with most of what you said, but I question Haar being the most durable flier, since Jill should have comparable Defense (especially if she got a Dracoshield, although she loses HP by quite a bit) and Jill and Marcia have much more avoid. They also won't be doubled by Swordmasters, for what that's worth.

[Zkirsche]

I've been advocating Haar > Geoffrey for a while, so I'm in agreement. Especially when Haar contributes for nearly twice as long as Geoffrey (considering Geoffrey does virtually nothing in chapter 25 and neither in endgame, it's 5 vs 3 chapters), and when you see Haar flying, it's fairly obvious that, at the very least, they should be in the same tier.

[aku chi]

I agree with most of what you said, but I question Haar being the most durable flier, since Jill should have comparable Defense (especially if she got a Dracoshield, although she loses HP by quite a bit) and Jill and Marcia have much more avoid. They also won't be doubled by Swordmasters, for what that's worth.

Jill can be pretty durable, but she needs to be ~level 20/13 to match Haar's base durability (due to his HP lead). With a Seraph Robe (which is more realistic and more helpful than a Dracoshield), Jill can almost match Haar's base durability at 20/9, which is pretty impressive. I question if Jill can realistically reach those levels by Chapter 23 (especially 20/13). Haar's defensive growths are a little better, as well.

Marcia and especially Tanith lose Defense and HP really hard to Haar. They certainly don't have enough to avoid to be relied on, especially without supports - as is the likely scenario whenever drops are considered. They do have a resistance lead, which is worth something in Chapter 25. I like to use one of the Falcon Knights to lure and kill Gromell.

Regarding being doubled, it takes a while before any enemy threatens to double base Haar, and Haar can generally gain enough Speed to avoid being doubled by every enemy except, perhaps, a Swordmaster or two in Endgame.

[Radiant Dragon]

Fair enough, my point was only that Haar's durability lead isn't as large as you implied.

[Kaoz]

Jill can be pretty durable, but she needs to be ~level 20/13 to match Haar's base durability (due to his HP lead). With a Seraph Robe (which is more realistic and more helpful than a Dracoshield), Jill can almost match Haar's base durability at 20/9, which is pretty impressive. I question if Jill can realistically reach those levels by Chapter 23 (especially 20/13). Haar's defensive growths are a little better, as well.

While neither of us used Jill, both Anouleth and myself had our mounted units at around 20/09 at that point, so that should be doable at least.

[aku chi]

Fair enough, my point was only that Haar's durability lead isn't as large as you implied.

I didn't intend to imply that Haar's durability lead was large (over Jill). But unlike Geoffrey, Haar does have a meaningful advantage over all of the other units that share his movement. Geoffrey is filler - good filler - but filler nonetheless. A trained Oscar is likely to best Geoffrey in every way (while a 20/9 Oscar doesn't quite match Geoffrey's base Defense, a support with Ike makes him effectively invincible). Only a very well-trained Jill can match Haar's durability, so he has his uses even in an optimal deployment setting (chapters 25 and 28). And if Jill isn't trained, Haar's durability advantages are even more important.

While neither of us used Jill, both Anouleth and myself had our mounted units at around 20/09 at that point, so that should be doable at least.

It's certainly possible, and probably realistic for units like Oscar or even Kieran. But Jill joins at a lowly level 8 near the end of Chapter 12, so it takes a lot more to get Jill to 20/9. We probably want to Bexp dump and promote Jill by Chapter 17, so then she needs to gain 8 levels in ~7 chapters. That seems somewhat reasonable, though 20/13 seems out of reach.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Jill can be pretty durable, but she needs to be ~level 20/13 to match Haar's base durability (due to his HP lead). With a Seraph Robe (which is more realistic and more helpful than a Dracoshield), Jill can almost match Haar's base durability at 20/9, which is pretty impressive. I question if Jill can realistically reach those levels by Chapter 23 (especially 20/13). Haar's defensive growths are a little better, as well.

Marcia and especially Tanith lose Defense and HP really hard to Haar. They certainly don't have enough to avoid to be relied on, especially without supports - as is the likely scenario whenever drops are considered. They do have a resistance lead, which is worth something in Chapter 25. I like to use one of the Falcon Knights to lure and kill Gromell.

Regarding being doubled, it takes a while before any enemy threatens to double base Haar, and Haar can generally gain enough Speed to avoid being doubled by every enemy except, perhaps, a Swordmaster or two in Endgame.

Jill has few contenders for the Seraph Robe, in all honesty. Ike wants the first one because he won't max HP otherwise (or at least cone within two points, which he needs to defeat Burger King). Jill's contenders for the second robe are Mist, Soren, Ilyana, and Rhys, because they have low HP and low durability. Mist is the strongest of the four but she also has a killer group of supports because of her Water affinity, which gives her Defense and Avoid. Soren and Ilyana can utilize their 2-range to avoid counterattacks. Rhys should have Titania support by now and his HP is better than Mist's at any rate. So really it's Mist or Jill. Jill will use it better overall with more durability especially when she promotes and flies off on her own, while Mist will be with the rest of the party healing as necessary, and once she promotes she'll have little issue with that because of her movement and Jill support.

[Shadow Mir]

Haar's great durability will allow him to tank some Ballista attacks without the Full Guard (he still needs to be careful in the west, like everyone).

What? Two Iron Ballista hits (and there are three of those on this map) kills him.

Rhys should have Titania support by now

Never mind the move difference between Titania and Rhys, as well as the fract that Titania doesn't want to support Rhys.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Bearissoslow]

I'm not positive on ballista stats, but considering the fact that he has 20 Defense at base, I'm thinking that you forgot that the Full Guard negates the bow advantage.

[aku chi]

What? Two Iron Ballista hits (and there are three of those on this map) kills him.

My bad, Haar does just barely get 2HKOed by the Ballistae in this chapter without the Full Guard. So he can only tank one hit. With the Full Guard, they barely scratch him, but that's not much of an accomplishment.

[Radiant Dragon]

I'm not positive on ballista stats, but considering the fact that he has 20 Defense at base, I'm thinking that you forgot that the Full Guard negates the bow advantage.

Notice how the quote specifically said 'without the Full Guard'.

[Bearissoslow]

Notice how the quote specifically said 'without the Full Guard'.

Illiteracy kills.

[Anouleth]

WRT Haar vs. Geoffrey:

Geoffrey has good growths, but poor bases. Generally, in order to perform as well as your other paladins, he needs to take a few levels of BEXP, but it's quite cheap since he has Paragon, and with the Knight Ward, he has a great 50%STR/85%SPD/45%DEF growth spread and it doesn't take a lot of BEXP to make him start doubling some of the faster enemy types like Paladins that elude Haar. So I don't think it's realistic that Geoffrey would be sitting at his base level, or close to it, when Chapter 26 starts.

Jill has few contenders for the Seraph Robe, in all honesty. Ike wants the first one because he won't max HP otherwise (or at least cone within two points, which he needs to defeat Burger King).

Who cares about killing the Black Knight?

Jill's contenders for the second robe are Mist, Soren, Ilyana, and Rhys, because they have low HP and low durability.

Mist has awful combat and will never be durable, the same go for Rhys and Ilyana. Soren has decent combat, but unlike Jill, he has a paltry 6 move, so even if in theory he was a durable character, he still wouldn't be able to expose himself to multiple enemies, and he doesn't take counter-attacks anyway. All of these are horrible choices for a Seraph Robe.

Rather, the main canditates for Seraph Robes are Marcia and Tanith, who don't have great durability but do need to be able to go into dangerous situations. I think that those are much more serious competition against Jill.

[Life]

I don't see why that Seraph Robe should be going to Jill instead of Marcia. I mean, Marcia's sporting 50 Avo, 32 HP and 14 Def at level 20/1 (Laguz Lance and Heavy Spear drop her Avo by a bit and both are in play by Chapter 17). In comparison, Jill's got 41 Avo, 36 HP and 17 Def at the same level in the same chapter. Jill's growths are (marginally) better than Marcia's and Marcia caps her Spd at 28 at level 20/16. Jill's going to be sitting at 25 Spd at 20/20 but that's not necessarily bad. Jill's concrete defensive lead is going to start becoming more noticeable as the game goes on.

My point is, why does this robe go to Jill instead of Marcia or Tanith (as Anouleth mentioned)? Marcia probably uses it better than Jill to escape 3RKOs (25 Atk is a 3RKO and there are some enemies who actually hit that value in Chapter 17 along with WTA on Marcia if she's using a lance). Same with Tanith. Why does Jill get the second Robe?

[aku chi]

WRT Haar vs. Geoffrey:

Geoffrey has good growths, but poor bases. Generally, in order to perform as well as your other paladins, he needs to take a few levels of BEXP, but it's quite cheap since he has Paragon, and with the Knight Ward, he has a great 50%STR/85%SPD/45%DEF growth spread and it doesn't take a lot of BEXP to make him start doubling some of the faster enemy types like Paladins that elude Haar. So I don't think it's realistic that Geoffrey would be sitting at his base level, or close to it, when Chapter 26 starts.

Fair enough, but with a similar amount of Bexp, Haar will still maintain a notable Attack lead (better base, better growth, better cap, and Axes) to 2HKO at range and will double most foes that Geoffrey does except Paladins and Snipers, many of whom Haar can 2HKO with a Brave weapon (also, Paladins don't exist in Chapter 27). And this Bexp-filled Geoffrey really only shines in Chapters 26 and 27. Haar performs better in Chapters 25 and 28 alone, in addition to having decent performances in his other 4 chapters. The Speedwings are also an option (though, I maintain, an unneeded one) to bring Haar up to speed.

I don't see why that Seraph Robe should be going to Jill instead of Marcia. I mean, Marcia's sporting 50 Avo, 32 HP and 14 Def at level 20/1 (Laguz Lance and Heavy Spear drop her Avo by a bit and both are in play by Chapter 17). In comparison, Jill's got 41 Avo, 36 HP and 17 Def at the same level in the same chapter. Jill's growths are (marginally) better than Marcia's and Marcia caps her Spd at 28 at level 20/16. Jill's going to be sitting at 25 Spd at 20/20 but that's not necessarily bad. Jill's concrete defensive lead is going to start becoming more noticeable as the game goes on.

My point is, why does this robe go to Jill instead of Marcia or Tanith (as Anouleth mentioned)? Marcia probably uses it better than Jill to escape 3RKOs (25 Atk is a 3RKO and there are some enemies who actually hit that value in Chapter 17 along with WTA on Marcia if she's using a lance). Same with Tanith. Why does Jill get the second Robe?

I'm not sure if anybody has argued that Jill should always (or usually) get a Seraph Robe. I simply pointed out that Jill would need one to match Haar's durability at a reasonable level. If she doesn't get it, Haar's durability is more valuable.

[Anouleth]

Fair enough, but with a similar amount of Bexp, Haar will still maintain a notable Attack lead (better base, better growth, better cap, and Axes) to 2HKO at range and will double most foes that Geoffrey does except Paladins and Snipers, many of whom Haar can 2HKO with a Brave weapon (also, Paladins don't exist in Chapter 27). And this Bexp-filled Geoffrey really only shines in Chapters 26 and 27. Haar performs better in Chapters 25 and 28 alone, in addition to having decent performances in his other 4 chapters. The Speedwings are also an option (though, I maintain, an unneeded one) to bring Haar up to speed.

Why should we give Haar and Geoffrey an equal amount of BEXP? Does this look like Stalinist Russia to you? Geoffrey levels up twice as fast as Haar and has triple the speed growth. It's questionable if the benefits from bexping Haar outweigh the costs - it isn't questionable with Geoffrey.