FE9 Tier list v3

[Zkirsche]

If Ulki is more valuable than Rolf (which he may very well be), it would have to come from his flier utility, not his combat.

Well, you could also say that the demiband has less cost than the thousands of exp we give rofl, but rofl also availability.

[Radiant Dragon]

And there's the rub. Is Ulki's flying utility worth more than Rolf's better player phase combat and availability? They're both taking a valued resource: Ulki needs the Demi Band, while Rolf needs quite a bit of BEXP.

I'd definitely say that taking the Demi Band is bigger than taking so much BEXP, due to the fact that without the Demi Band we can't really use Muarim (and to a lesser extent Ranulf, but he transforms on turn 3 so it's not as bad there), while we will still have some BEXP left for other units after Rolf gets what he needs.

I'm not sure who to go with here. It's not like Ulki can't fight at all, but what does it take for him to have good combat? Is it feasible for him to get one of our two Speedwings?

[Life]

And there's the rub. Is Ulki's flying utility worth more than Rolf's better player phase combat and availability? They're both taking a valued resource: Ulki needs the Demi Band, while Rolf needs quite a bit of BEXP.

Rolf also takes a spot away from almost anybody else who is better.

The reason why that applies here is because Rolf has no enemy phase unless you can rig the AI to attack him at 2 range (probably won't happen since AI will try for no counterattacks). Because of that, Rolf needs a really good player phase to make up for that deficit of being useless on the enemy phase.

Take Klein/Igrene/Louise/EiInnes as GBA examples. None of them have enemy phases but what keeps them from being useless is that they can almost guarantee a kill on the Player Phase, especially Klein and EiInnes. That's something that Rolf needs to do to actually be worth fielding and it's something he can't do for a very long time.

[Radiant Dragon]

Rolf also takes a spot away from almost anybody else who is better.

So does Ulki, albeit to a lesser extent. Nonetheless, this is Bottom Tier we're looking at.

The reason why that applies here is because Rolf has no enemy phase unless you can rig the AI to attack him at 2 range (probably won't happen since AI will try for no counterattacks). Because of that, Rolf needs a really good player phase to make up for that deficit of being useless on the enemy phase.

Take Klein/Igrene/Louise/EiInnes as GBA examples. None of them have enemy phases but what keeps them from being useless is that they can almost guarantee a kill on the Player Phase, especially Klein and EiInnes. That's something that Rolf needs to do to actually be worth fielding and it's something he can't do for a very long time.

This is true, which is why Rolf is Bottom tier and those guys aren't. However, Rolf does have the advantage over Wolt/Rebecca/Neimi that he can take BEXP to help him get past the stage where he has terrible combat.

[Life]

This is true, which is why Rolf is Bottom tier and those guys aren't. However, Rolf does have the advantage over Wolt/Rebecca/Neimi that he can take BEXP to help him get past the stage where he has terrible combat.

But at what cost? He's competing with Mist, Nephenee, Brom and Keiran almost immediately. Nephenee climbs out of her hole with 5 levels of BExp and she has 1~2 range. Brom's got a different set of problems but he can at least reliably 2RKO anything on the field. Keiran is on a horse with Axes. Mist just needs 10/0 to promote. And this is just Rolf in Chapter 10/11.

[Lord Raven]

Don't forget about Marcia who comes in at exactly the same chapter he does and arguably saves *many* more turns.

[Radiant Dragon]

Of course there's a cost for Rolf to take BEXP, but I wouldn't say it's more than the cost of Ulki taking the Demi Band.

If we're going to say Rolf can't get BEXP because better units want it, we might as well say Ulki can't get the Demi Band because better units want it, and throw them both in 'Unused Tier'.

Edited August 15, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

lol i was pitching that for a radiant dawn tier list

That's beside the point. Ulki's chip in his chapters is way better than Rolf's chip in his own chapters. Ulki can dodge at 1-range too. Worst case scenario, we don't give him the Demi Band and wait until Turn 5 (or a bit earlier if we want to get him attacked once or twice) and still outperform Rolf. On top of Flier utility however late it is.

Ulki's competing with Muarim/Mordecai for a Demi Band, but Rolf is competing for BEXP with Nephenee, Marcia, Kieran, Brom, Oscar, Boyd, Titania... every single unit save Rhys and Mist basically. On top of lacking an enemy phase (as opposed to Ulki who only lacks an Enemy Phase half the time, like every other laguz unit).

[Radiant Dragon]

Worst case scenario, we don't give him the Demi Band and wait until Turn 5 (or a bit earlier if we want to get him attacked once or twice) and still outperform Rolf. On top of Flier utility however late it is.

I highly question the efficiency of a strategy that waits until turn 5 to start ferrying people.

Ulki's competing with Muarim/Mordecai for a Demi Band, but Rolf is competing for BEXP with Nephenee, Marcia, Kieran, Brom, Oscar, Boyd, Titania... every single unit save Rhys and Mist basically. On top of lacking an enemy phase (as opposed to Ulki who only lacks an Enemy Phase half the time, like every other laguz unit).

@Bold: Why are we giving Titania BEXP early on? @Underlined: Rhys and Mist want BEXP too if they ever want to promote.

The difference is that Rolf taking BEXP doesn't prevent the rest of our team from also getting BEXP. Ulki taking the Demi Band prevents our Beast Laguz from using it. Assuming the player isn't using a bunch of units that need a huge BEXP dump, there's enough BEXP for a player to train a competent team that includes Rolf.

[Lord Raven]

You can easily promote Mist at 10/0 and she still has her mounted healer utility. As well as 15 magic.

In Hard Mode, there is still quite a bit of EXP but still not enough to train a bunch of pretty good units AND Rolf at the same time. Rolf simply does nothing but chip for a while unless he has a bunch of BEXP... a BUNCH. That he is taking away from every unit I listed (save Titania) anyway, only to become mediocre. Rolf's evolution is terrible -> mediocre whereas Ulki goes from mediocre -> mediocre with the resources they take from people.

[Anouleth]

Mist needs BEXP just to reach level 10 in a timely manner.

Ulki needs Demi Band just to not be a complete non-entity because he's untransformed. That's hardly being 'mediocre'.

[Radiant Dragon]

In Hard Mode, there is still quite a bit of EXP but still not enough to train a bunch of pretty good units AND Rolf at the same time.

Why not? Ike, Titania, Oscar, Boyd, Lethe, Mordecai and Kieran don't need much/any BEXP, and units like Mia, Nephenee, Zihark etc. only need a few levels. Then there are units like Mist, Marcia, Astrid etc. that need quite a bit. Not everyone needs lots of BEXP to be good.

Mind you, I have never actually tried to train Rolf, but there's so much BEXP that I can't imagine it's any less likely for him to get what he needs than it is for Ulki to get the Demi Band.

[The Wizard Of Yendor]

(Note: I've never posted in a tier list before, or even on these forums; but I've read these forums long enough for a decent understanding of how things work.)

I can understand the positions of most everyone on the list, but why is Sothe where he is, right below Volke? Honestly, I think he should drop several places, probably below Tauroneo. Here's why:

1: His bases are absolutely laughable. He tinks every enemy in his joining chapter, and gets doubled by all but the weakest ones. Things don't really get better for him later, either.

2: Due to his class, he's trickier to improve than most other garbage units. Knives can't be forged in this game, and the strongest one in the game (that you don't get for about 14 chapters, mind you) has 8 might; for most of the game, Sothe is stuck with a 2 might weapon. Stat boosting items are basically out of the question, which leaves only one out: BEXP. However, even if we spend ~1400 BEXP on him (about half of the amount we've gotten so far) to put him at 10/0, his stats turn out thus:

26 HP 10.5 Str 2 Mag 14 Skl 17.5 Spd 10.5 Lck 7.5 Def 3 Res

w/ Knife: 12-13 atk, 128 hit, 17-18 AS, 12 crit, 44-49 Avo

Now, he doesn't get doubled... but he still 7RKO's the weakest ravens, while getting 3HKO'd in return. This is including blossom, and after using up BEXP that pretty much everyone else would use better.

And as for supports? Sothe has wind affinity, and all of his support partners have better options. Nothing to see here.

So obviously, he's not a combat unit with these stats. That leaves utility purposes for him. As a thief, he can steal a few things, like late-game physic staves, but so can Volke, and Volke has more survivability and doesn't tink things until much later. There are enough chest keys to get all the important items in the game, and he shares credit for the desert items with Volke. He's not mounted, he doesn't fly, he doesn't have great move, and his 6 Con means he can't even shove well.

The only advantage he has above the people below him in his tier is availability, but availability is meaningless if you can't do anything with it. Janaff, Ranulf and Largo can become decent with resources, and Tauroneo can too. While they aren't going to save you many turns, that's almost certainly more than what Sothe does.

tl;dr: Sothe to bottom of lower-mid.

[Radiant Dragon]

I hate tiering Thieves. However, Volke isn't above Tauroneo, Janaff etc. due to his combat (which, while better than Sothe's, is still pretty bad), but due to the treasure he gets us, which Sothe does just as well.

If Sothe and Volke are going to separate, the deciding factor will have to be Volke's combat, and it just isn't good enough to warrant a split.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[aku chi]

If you're using Sothe for combat, you're doing something wrong. Sothe is where he is due to thief utility. Most important is his ability to grab items in the desert which includes the turn-saving Boots. Also important is his ability to contribute to a fast clear of Chapter 13, where all of the treasure chests must be emptied. Once you consider that not all of the Chest Keys are likely to be retrieved in an efficient playthrough, there are not enough Chest Keys to get all of the valuable treasures. Sothe might be able to steal a Physic or two, but not for long without some resources. Sothe is fine (if not too low) where he is. It is my opinion that Volke should be higher, for his better durability, better availability, better thieving, and poor but existant combat. But we've discussed the thieves several times in the past few months. They are not easy to compare with other units.

[Florete]

Although opening all the chests in Ch 13 is likely preferable, I am pretty sure the Ravens will leave if they don't have access to any remaining chests, aka if the chests are simply blocked off by your units.

[The Wizard Of Yendor]

Ah, I see now. I suppose I wasn't putting much weight on the boots or his help in 13. Thieves really are a pain.

Also, I'm a little lost on the Rolf/Ulki/Largo debate. Is Largo being argued up? Down? Or is someone else moving?

[Soren37]

(Note: I've never posted in a tier list before, or even on these forums; but I've read these forums long enough for a decent understanding of how things work.)

I'll try to be gentle, then.

I can understand the positions of most everyone on the list, but why is Sothe where he is, right below Volke? Honestly, I think he should drop several places, probably below Tauroneo.

Taur's a brick wall with Resolve and his stats. If it wasn't for MOV, I'd love him to bits. And availability.

Here's why:

1: His bases are absolutely laughable. He tinks every enemy in his joining chapter, and gets doubled by all but the weakest ones. Things don't really get better for him later, either.

Ike, Rolf, Mist, and any other unit at level 1 have laughable bases as well. Sothe's are just about the same as everyone else's.

2: Due to his class, he's trickier to improve than most other garbage units. Knives can't be forged in this game, and the strongest one in the game (that you don't get for about 14 chapters, mind you) has 8 might; for most of the game, Sothe is stuck with a 2 might weapon. Stat boosting items are basically out of the question, which leaves only one out: BEXP. However, even if we spend ~1400 BEXP on him (about half of the amount we've gotten so far) to put him at 10/0, his stats turn out thus:

26 HP 10.5 Str 2 Mag 14 Skl 17.5 Spd 10.5 Lck 7.5 Def 3 Res

w/ Knife: 12-13 atk, 128 hit, 17-18 AS, 12 crit, 44-49 Avo

BEXP is easy to manipulate. By giving lower amounts, say 1 EXP at a time, you will conserve your BEXP and gain more level ups.

Now, he doesn't get doubled... but he still 7RKO's the weakest ravens, while getting 3HKO'd in return. This is including blossom, and after using up BEXP that pretty much everyone else would use better.

And why are we letting him fight Ravens? Heck, he's part of the clean-up crew. Everyone blitzes forward, Sothe cleans up whatever's left. He can probably take down the squishier units, but other than that, no.

And as for supports? Sothe has wind affinity, and all of his support partners have better options. Nothing to see here.

Wind's...not very useful. Useful for units that have no accuracy, but the only one with that is Boyd if you went insane and left Tempest on.

So obviously, he's not a combat unit with these stats. That leaves utility purposes for him. As a thief, he can steal a few things, like late-game physic staves, but so can Volke, and Volke has more survivability and doesn't tink things until much later. There are enough chest keys to get all the important items in the game, and he shares credit for the desert items with Volke. He's not mounted, he doesn't fly, he doesn't have great move, and his 6 Con means he can't even shove well.

Oh, how this makes me laugh. Stealing items is why he's so high. Have you looked at the desert map? To low turn it for all the BEXP AND items requires both Sothe and Volke, with a lot of shoves and some RNG manipulation. Getting all of those items can give you a huge boost, especially when you get the boots. Volke and Sothe also have the best chance of finding something, with a 100% Chance.

Look at any other FE game and you'll notice that thieves are almost always higher than you think they should be. This is because of their utility. There always seems to be one desert map with hidden items, and some of the best items are only able to be stolen. So, how do you get them? Use a thief.

As for the keys, if you want every item, gotta use a thief. Also, using Sothe means that you can free up a combat unit to go and murder things dead while he steals things. Look at the chapter where you first meet Sanaki. There's about 6 chests or so. Using one character that isn't Sothe or Volke means that you have to use a combat unit each turn to grab an item, and either trade it off or convoy it. Sothe takes that position, so you can get lower turns.

The only advantage he has above the people below him in his tier is availability, but availability is meaningless if you can't do anything with it. Janaff, Ranulf and Largo can become decent with resources, and Tauroneo can too. While they aren't going to save you many turns, that's almost certainly more than what Sothe does.

Janaff-lol

Ranulf-meh.

Largo-lol

Taur-You know my opinion.

Janaff is bad in PoR, Ranulf is meh, and Largo's a high risk, high reward character. Also, his late joining time is annoying. Sothe provides more in terms of chests, stealing, and desert.

tl;dr: Sothe to bottom of lower-mid.

Nah. He's pretty good where he is.

Also, congrats on joining Serenes Forest! You have now taken your first step into debating and tier list arguing.

[Lord Raven]

I don't understand the kind of double standard you people apply to tier lists. Ulki's a drain on our resources because he competes for a Demi band but his flier utility (which barely exists as is, that flier utility blows) is better than Largo's average offense when Largo comes in. Except Ulki needs the Demi Band for consistent flier utility and he needs the Demi band for offense which you guys keep saying HES NOT GETTING whereas at least Largo makes a decent attempt at not-all-that-bad-and-does-a-ton-of-damage offense whenever he comes in.

Then we have Rolf who is doing nothing but chip in his chapters. Except wait, you shouldn't even need him to do chip when you're pumping the fuck out of your best offensive units so they can solidly 2HKO things by themselves instead of 2HKO w/ chip... and then Rolf turns into a mediocre combat unit who can only attack up to 5 times a chapter (I'm being generous, some guy beat FE9 HM in around 130ish turns on gamefaqs) when he uses those resources.

So basically, Largo > Rolf and Ulki. Hawk's flier utility sucks dick in this game. Does nobody remember the lack of Canto? They can't pick things up and then immediately move away, nor can they drop things off and move away. They stay in their spot and cannot move as soon as they do things. I know *I* forget a bunch of times when I'm playing FE9 these days. At least Marcia/Tanith/Jill/etc can cover some ground as soon as they rescue someone.

Ike, Rolf, Mist, and any other unit at level 1 have laughable bases as well. Sothe's are just about the same as everyone else's.

This is irrelevant. Ike not only gets a free level in the Prologue, but in C1 onwards he will remain on par with the enemies without too much extra support. Mist needs to heal, she's not an offensive unit (even after promotion putting her on offense is dumb unless you want to level up her sword level for the Sonic Sword or something). Rolf, however, barely does damage in his own chapter and gets killed pretty easily simply because his relative stat output is so poor, especially compared to everyone else who is fielded (and all enemy units).

As for the keys, if you want every item, gotta use a thief. Also, using Sothe means that you can free up a combat unit to go and murder things dead while he steals things. Look at the chapter where you first meet Sanaki. There's about 6 chests or so. Using one character that isn't Sothe or Volke means that you have to use a combat unit each turn to grab an item, and either trade it off or convoy it. Sothe takes that position, so you can get lower turns.

What chapter are you talking about? The one where you recruit Kieran has a bunch of pretty useless treasures, and I read a low turn guide that said that the most practical thing to get from the chests in a low-turn of C16 was Full Guard and I think the top right corner of chests.

And why are we letting him fight Ravens? Heck, he's part of the clean-up crew. Everyone blitzes forward, Sothe cleans up whatever's left. He can probably take down the squishier units, but other than that, no.

You know that Sothe has 8 base attack right? What is he cleaning up? A priest that he can't even ORKO? That's not even going into the fact that his strongest weapon will have 4 Mt for a solid half the time he's around. You only have one Stiletto between C21 and whenever they start being sold in the shops, and even then that's just 8 Mt (although effective against armors... lol). If we're argue Sothe's merit on offense, then I swear to god debating has hit a new level of low. Edited August 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

Ah, I see now. I suppose I wasn't putting much weight on the boots or his help in 13. Thieves really are a pain.

Also, I'm a little lost on the Rolf/Ulki/Largo debate. Is Largo being argued up? Down? Or is someone else moving?

Janaff has been making an upward climb recently, largely due to tertiary flier utility. Ulki can match that utility with the Demi Band so I wondered why Ulki hadn't also moved up the tier list. So we're considering if Ulki should move up, and if so: where.

[Radiant Dragon]

Ike, Rolf, Mist, and any other unit at level 1 have laughable bases as well. Sothe's are just about the same as everyone else's.

Except Sothe joins in Chapter 12, where level 1 bases simply aren't acceptable.

Also, using Sothe means that you can free up a combat unit to go and murder things dead while he steals things. Look at the chapter where you first meet Sanaki. There's about 6 chests or so. Using one character that isn't Sothe or Volke means that you have to use a combat unit each turn to grab an item, and either trade it off or convoy it.

This is false. Neither Sothe or Volke are free, so just to deploy one means we miss out on a combat unit. Further, by using a combat unit to open the chests, we can let them fight on turns where they aren't opening one, something Sothe can't do and Volke doesn't as well as combat units.

I don't understand the kind of double standard you people apply to tier lists. Ulki's a drain on our resources because he competes for a Demi band but his flier utility (which barely exists as is, that flier utility blows) is better than Largo's average offense when Largo comes in. Except Ulki needs the Demi Band for consistent flier utility and he needs the Demi band for offense which you guys keep saying HES NOT GETTING whereas at least Largo makes a decent attempt at not-all-that-bad-and-does-a-ton-of-damage offense whenever he comes in.

Why can't Ulki get the Band? As long as the cost (preventing us from using one of the Beast Laguz) is accounted for in the comparison, we can look at what he does with the Band.

So basically, Largo > Rolf and Ulki.

Obviously. Is there a point here?

Hawk's flier utility sucks dick in this game.

It still exists though, and it's something that Largo can not do. Does it make Janaff better than Largo? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to say that when also considering Janaff's availability lead and decent (although not spectacular) offense in said chapters, that it is.

[Lord Raven]

That's the problem, Ulki can match that utility with a Demi Band. People made a massive fuss about the Demi Band because it "takes away from Muarim"...

Why can't Ulki get the Band? As long as the cost (preventing us from using one of the Beast Laguz) is accounted for in the comparison, we can look at what he does with the Band.

Because that's the way everyone argues it, duh. I'd prefer arguing each unit on their own merits as opposed to saying "They can't get this because someone's better" when we're arguing their objective position on a tier list, but sadly nobody shares this view with me. I'd think the tier list's existence sorts out the order of operations for who gets what, anyway.

It still exists though, and it's something that Largo can not do. Does it make Janaff better than Largo? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to say that when also considering Janaff's availability lead and decent (although not spectacular) offense in said chapters, that it is.

Let me know a couple decent strategies that consists of the Hawks' flier utility. In other words, why weigh flier utility against Largo if it's not used or isn't effective? Edited August 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

That's the problem, Ulki can match that utility with a Demi Band. People made a massive fuss about the Demi Band because it "takes away from Muarim"...

Because that's the way everyone argues it, duh. I'd prefer arguing each unit on their own merits as opposed to saying "They can't get this because someone's better" when we're arguing their objective position on a tier list, but sadly nobody shares this view with me. I'd think the tier list's existence sorts out the order of operations for who gets what, anyway.

And Mordecai and Ranulf. Normally I'd agree with you, but when the use of one unit literally prevents us from using another, then the cost for the worse one to be used is extremely steep. Obviously, we still debate them on the merits of what they can do while they are used, but that cost lowers their position regardless.

Let me know a couple decent strategies that consists of the Hawks' flier utility. In other words, why weigh flier utility against Largo if it's not used or isn't effective?

Most any strategy that uses flier utility? The Hawks may lack canto, but that doesn't prevent them from picking up people and flying over everything.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i must comment that Ilyana has the Shade Skill so shouldn't she not be targeted by enemys as often as you'd make her out to be?

EDIT: WHOOPS EPIC SLOWPOKE MOMENT MY BAD

Edited August 16, 2011 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Florete]

It's obviously not as practical, but there are ways to get around the lack of re-move on the Hawks. If the unit being Rescued can reach at least one short of the Hawk's full movement, re-move is not needed. If they aren't flying over a mountain or something immediately, someone else can Rescue the unit and then give to the Hawk on turn 2.