Anouleth Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Janaff's gauge is a non-issue since he transforms on turn 1, giving him 7 turns of flying utility. Ok, he can't take on huge waves of enemies without untransforming, but can Sothe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Haar costs turns to recruit if you have Jill (because she has to stay back and wont be able to help ferry Ike) and he wont see recruitment if Jill is skipped in favor of Marcia 2 turn of ravenship (chapter 12) i'm not sure that this is a usable point against haar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted September 10, 2012 Author Share Posted September 10, 2012 Thieves are always tricky to tier and I'll admit their positions are somewhat arbitrary. On one hand, Volke completely outclasses Sothe (there's nothing relevant Sothe does better), while on the other hand Volke's advantages over Sothe are almost entirely meaningless. Since we're rating units based on what they can do, not what other units do, Sothe remains pretty close to Volke since he provides about the same amount of utility. PoR isn't a great game for thieves though, since we do get a fair number of chest keys and stealing is only marginally useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Or you could look at FE4, another game with no rescue-dropping option, in which mounted units also dominate. That's also because your lord, who is necessary for completing THE ONLY CHAPTER GOAL IN THE ENTIRE GAME, is mounted. Or promotes to mounted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Volke's existence in C10 is meaningful. And while it's true that the thieves aren't stellar, Volke and Sothe aren't tiered above any great units. Haar > Sothe might be arguable, but I don't see much of a case for Gatrie > Sothe. Gatrie has a very good C7 contribution, but Sothe has an even better C15 contribution. Gatrie is kinda useful in C3, C4, C5, and C13, but Sothe is more valuable in C13, C16, C21, and C27. Gatrie is slightly less useless in the remaining chapters, but it hardly seems to be enough to put him over Sothe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) Gatrie has a very good C7 contribution, but Sothe has an even better C15 contribution. Seems to me like you're doing the opposite of what you did in the Marcia vs. Jill debate. Volke exists for the Boots and Physic, so Sothe's net worth is zero. By your logic, that should mean that they're both completely useless, right? Edited September 10, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 But you can redeem Gatrie. Might mean giving him boots, the KW, and maybe a speedwing or two, but he CAN be made to fight. The most MT Sothe could EVER have is 28 and that's with capped STR and a Stiletto. A base-level Gatrie wielding a forged steel lance clocks in at 27. Sothe's speed caps out at 20 so, even if he is used in combat, he might not double and has 33 HP and 11 DEF. Base-level Gatrie has 31 HP and 14 DEF. Level 20 Sothe with Blossom + Stilletto: HP: 32.67 STR: 16.61(+8 Stiletto) MAG: 3.11 SKL: 20 SPD: 20 LCK: 16.61 DEF: 11.39 RES: 6.33 Base-level Gatrie with Forged Steel Lance: HP: 31 STR: 12 (+15 Forged Steel) MAG: 0 SKL: 6 SPD: 5 LCK: 5 DEF: 14 RES: 0 Level 20/20 Gatrie with Forged Silver Lance: HP: 58 STR: 29 (+20 Forged Silver) MAG: 3.5 SKL: 24.5 SPD: 14.5 LCK: 12.5 DEF: 30 RES: 12 Merely holding the KW makes Gatrie have 16 DEF and 2 RES. Sothe has 56 evade (I forget if knives get a WTD against lances or not. If so that makes his evade basically 46 against a lot of enemies) and Gatrie has 15 evade. Gatrie has far more concrete durability than Sothe even when he's at his base level and Sothe is maxed out. He's got 2-3 points on Sothe as well (not sure how it works for fixed growths on this site) as well and will get a WTA against swords as well as not having to wait to get the stiletto. Unless he's given a BEXP dump I doubt he'll be doubling for long and, when he does double, he can end up dealing single digit damage... On enemies in chapter 20, WHILE HE'S AT HIS MAX LEVEL AND WITH HIS BEST WEAPON. It should be telling that Gatrie has more MT unarmed than Sothe does under ideal conditions. IMO, much more practical to simply give Gatrie the boots and let him fight. He might not kill anything without the ward, but he'll make a hell of a damage sponge and can deal some strong blows in return. Heck, why not let him take the Brave Lance if you need kills? Until you can buy Stilettos in 27 I doubt Sothe will be using one full time anyways as they're limited (Bastion and a chest in 21 are the only ways to get one before then). Sothe may have uses as a thief, but his use in combat is laughable. I might even chose the base-level Gatrie with the brave lance over Sothe even in the endgame for combat simply because I'll be guarenteed to double with that lance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Why give Gatrie the Boots when you can give it to someone like Jill/Marcia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 Why are we comparing Gatrie and Sothe's 20/20 stats again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Seems to me like you're doing the opposite of what you did in the Marcia vs. Jill debate. Volke exists for the Boots and Physic, so Sothe's net worth is zero. By your logic, that should mean that they're both completely useless, right? Only by straw-man logic. That Gatrie has some unique contributions in C7 shouldn't be neglected, both Sothe is one of only two units that can reliably get the Boots: an extremely valuable item. And there are other valuable units that Volke and Sothe can simultaneously collect (Physic, Guard, Silver Blade, and Statue Frag). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Why give Gatrie the Boots when you can give it to someone like Jill/Marcia? Why do Jill and Marcia have a monopoly on them? Besides, even though Jill/Marcia with boots > Gatrie with boots, Gatrie with boots > Gatrie without boots > Sothe with anything At least IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Jill/Marcia use them the best, so why would they not use them? Boosters should go to the unit who uses them the best, not a unit who can use them to get over an inferiority complex. Giving the boots to Gatrie will cause the player to spend more turns, with no reward other than a 8 move Gatrie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Gatrie with boots > Gatrie without boots > Sothe with anything uh, i hope you realize that this is not "gatrie w/o boots" vs. "gatrie w/ boots;" it's "gatrie w/o boots but someone else w/ boots" vs. "gatrie w/ boots" hence opportunity cost. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost if you can't grasp this concept, then it's not worth arguing with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) Janaff's gauge is a non-issue since he transforms on turn 1, giving him 7 turns of flying utility. Ok, he can't take on huge waves of enemies without untransforming, but can Sothe? The point is, Janaff's only use is being a mediocre combat unit and maybe a shovebot. Sothe gets you some neat items. Sure, if we compared them on combat only, anyone would be > Sothe except the healers but that's not what i mean. @ Dondon- how so? Edited September 11, 2012 by CR-S0I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk King Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 ^ Seriously? Giving Gatrie the boots means we cant give them to someone who makes better use of them. Snowy said, Gatrie with boots > Gatrie w/o boots. This is a true statement, but from an overall perspective it is false. Giving Gatrie boots will make Gatrie better, but it will make our team weaker in the form of turns being lost. Snowy and dondon are looking at it from different perspectives. They are both correct but dondon is more correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 That's a horrible way to look at it as it means that no item should be given to anyone who doesn't make outright optimal use of it. Does Nephenee make great use of Vantage? Yes? But we can't even talk about Nephenee + Vantage because Ike + Vantage/Wrath is better? Oh well, ALL HAIL THE LTC LIST! Is Sothe at maximum level better than Gatrie? Maybe but any amount of BEXP/CEXP given to Sothe is better spent on Marcia/Jill? ALL HAIL THE LTC LIST! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted September 11, 2012 Author Share Posted September 11, 2012 I don't think Wrath/Vantage Ike is particularly good as this list doesn't assume we care about beating the BK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Doesn't matter. Ike with Wrath/Vantage > Nephenee/Mia with Wrath/Vantage each, so both skills should go to him unconditionally unless he gets a better skill. After that I'm sure, Oscar, or Kieran, or Marcia, or Jill, or anyone listed above Nephenee and Mia would make better use of those skills, so them getting those skills is simply unconditionally not happening without throwing 'efficiency' out the window. In case I wasn't being obvious enough I find the notion of 'Giving X Y will make X better, but it will make our team weaker in the form of turns being lost.' to be a horrible notion for any tier list to have, even tier lists designed only FOR such things. 2 > 1, but 3 > 2, does that mean 2 = 1 now since both are < 3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ema Skye Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Why would Ike wants Vantage when he can have Resolve and we don't care about beating the Black Knght? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Doesn't matter. Ike with Wrath/Vantage > Nephenee/Mia with Wrath/Vantage each, so both skills should go to him unconditionally unless he gets a better skill. After that I'm sure, Oscar, or Kieran, or Marcia, or Jill, or anyone listed above Nephenee and Mia would make better use of those skills, so them getting those skills is simply unconditionally not happening without throwing 'efficiency' out the window. In case I wasn't being obvious enough I find the notion of 'Giving X Y will make X better, but it will make our team weaker in the form of turns being lost.' to be a horrible notion for any tier list to have, even tier lists designed only FOR such things. 2 > 1, but 3 > 2, does that mean 2 = 1 now since both are < 3? You truly don't understand what hypothetical test cases are. You go into a battle arena. You have Ike on one side and... let's say Boyd on the other. Ike beats Boyd. Does this mean he'll win every time? No, it doesn't. In 1000 battles, Ike may only win... let's go with 70% of the time. Now let's take this to your example. Ike uses Wrath/Vantage the best. Does this mean he always gets it? No, it doesn't. He'll just get it most of the time but there is also the the possibility of another unit getting those respective skills. Then you see who helps the team most with those skills. Happens to be Ike? So he'll get it... most of the time. Stop throwing a temper tantrum every single time someone points out your shoddy logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Now let's take this to your example. Ike uses Wrath/Vantage the best. Does this mean he always gets it? No, it doesn't. Why not? This is an 'efficiency' tier so Ike not using the skill that he's best with is pretty inefficient. That is, unless, there is a unit around who somehow makes better use of it. Then, and only then, should he not get those skills. He'll just get it most of the time but there is also the the possibility of another unit getting those respective skills. Snowy said, Gatrie with boots > Gatrie w/o boots. This is a true statement, but from an overall perspective it is false. Giving Gatrie boots will make Gatrie better, but it will make our team weaker in the form of turns being lost.Snowy and dondon are looking at it from different perspectives. They are both correct but dondon is more correct. Those statements cannot both be true. If the boots go best on the fliers and the fact that they go best on the fliers means Gatrie getting them is a team negative, then they should always BE on the fliers because anything less in inefficient. If Gatrie gives more with the boots than Gatrie does without the boots does than Sothe, then it doesn't matter what uses the boots better than Gatrie, Gatrie is superior to Sothe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Snowy, it's the principe of the fact. If you consider giving resources to say, Rolf vs Ike such as the boots, Wrath x Vantage, or other stat boosters, who will likely accomplish more with said boosters? Ike. He'd have more combat on EP, thus would kill more, thus would gain more EXP. The same goes for Gatrie vs Sothe (same scenario). Sothe can't handle the combat like Gatrie can. Now, in terms of efficiency, one strives to get the most, by using the least, in the most proper way. Why are you not accepting that units who already do more do not deserve to do it better, and more reliably? Does Gatrie!boots really provide more to the team than Marcia!Boots? Marcia will ALWAYS enter combat quicker, will always be able to carry someone else with her, and will always have the upper hand on experience because of such, no matter what efficient scenario u are in, unless you intentionally force weaker/slower units to catch up. That by principle, is inefficient, because it is using resources in a way that is not nearly as beneficial as it could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Dumb question. If Marcia is carrying someone else with her, why can't that someone else be Gatrie? Sure, he's slow, but if one boosts his speed up enough so he doubles you'll have a near-indestructable wall being carried by her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 why would she carry anyone but Ike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 You have two fliers in Marcia and Jill. Unless Ike suddenly counts as two units you can carry Ike and one more. Not to mention mounted units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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