FE9 Tier list v3

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

So 411 BEXP a unit by Ch10 is being accepted as fair?

[-Cynthia-]

I'd really like to see some numbers on Ulki before making a decision, though I'm leaning towards Rolf>Ulki.

kirsche brings up a good point than Janaff only needs the Demi Band after the first 4-5 turns, there's no reason not to use fully tranformed Janaff since he transforms turn 1. And if Janaff is taking the Demi Band for only the second half of the map(more or less), the strain on the other possible laguz isn't as bad.

[Sol Hiryu]

Ulki is in such a far worse boat than Janaff that I'm surprised that he's even above Nasir or Ena.

First off, we'll start with stats.

Base Ulki (No Demi Band): 41 HP, 28 Atk, 15 AS, 60 Avo, 18 Def

That doesn't seem too bad until you realize that Ulki starts off with only 5 gauge. If we decide to put the Demi Band on him...

Base Ulki w/ Demi Band: 41 HP, 25 Atk, 14 AS, 58 Avo, 16 Def

That AS of his is atrocious in both forms. He can double a decent amount of stuff that starts on the map he joins in, but that's assuming everyone else doesn't kill them by the time he transforms, if he's forgoing the Demi Band. He won't be able to double any of the reinforcements, and even gets doubled by the ravens. His Def is good for taking a few hits, although his offense will start to really suffer after this chapter. And his Spd growth (60%) isn't even high enough proportional to his EXP gain, due to high base level. I'd say Rolf easily > Ulki.

Although I have a question for clarification. When a laguz unequips the Demi Band, does it reduce their gauge to zero and revert them in that turn? I'm unsure on where I heard it.

EDIT: Was looking at the wrong chapter information. Oops.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Eltoshen]

kirsche brings up a good point than Janaff only needs the Demi Band after the first 4-5 turns, there's no reason not to use fully tranformed Janaff since he transforms turn 1. And if Janaff is taking the Demi Band for only the second half of the map(more or less), the strain on the other possible laguz isn't as bad.

I've mentioned this earlier in the topic but apparently people were too busy ignoring me?

[Progenitus]

We all know Ulki and Janaff are terrible, with their garbage offense and middling durability and laguz issues. The question is if they're still better than Rolf, who needs a lot of resources just to get mediocre offense.

[Sol Hiryu]

I'm going to reference a post Tino made in the first tier list topic here. Scroll up if you need context about it. True, it's not exactly about this whole thing with the hawks, but it does mention the one problem with the Demi Band.

In my eyes, either Janaff is holding on to the Demi Band and not using it until he's about to shift back, or another laguz will have to come up to him before that and trade it to him, wasting their player phase if they're not by an enemy. There's a lot of problems associated with both reasonings.

True, it can be said that they all take it away from each other. However, the big problem with it is if Janaff holds onto the Demi Band and doesn't use it until he's about to run out of gauge. In that time frame, you could have had Mordecai or Muarim, if either one of them are being played, using it and immediately helping to push the team forward. Lethe too might appreciate wanting to do the same thing Janaff is doing. I'd obviously put more weight on the former situation, and the cost of Janaff just holding onto the band and not using it if other laguz are in play is very large.

Having just tested it, a transformed laguz does in fact untransform upon the Demi Band being taken off via trade, their gauge reduced to zero. This makes the latter situation just as bad, because then a laguz unit will have to deprive themselves of the rest of the chapter just to make sure the laguz who took it can have active player/enemy phases. So yes, the strain on the other laguz is just as bad, if not worse.

---

Also, getting back on topic about Rolf's leveling after Chapter 11...is it possible that we can all at least agree he's around Level 13 around Ch. 16? I mean, even if all he did was chip enemies in Ch. 11, Ch. 12 is nothing but ravens that give him incredible EXP, and I can easily imagine him getting a level, if not two from it.

Ch. 13 has actual beorc enemies with a lot of chokepoints, but he can also help pick off any of the ravens (chipping or actual killing) with help from Astrid and getting another level from it. This would put him about Level 12, or maybe 13 if he somehow got a level in Ch. 11.

Ch. 14 comes, and I'm not sure how well he's doing there, even though it's easy to block off the bridges and have him snipe. He'll more than likely make Level 13 here if he was still 12 the previous chapter, but I think Level 14 might be pushing it a bit.

And then, of course, comes the desert chapter where almost no one levels due to going for max BEXP, assuming we're doing that. This places Rolf either at Level 13 or 14 going into Chapter 16.

Of course, that's just doing a very quick runthrough of the chapters in my head, and I'm probably not remembering some maps correctly.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Dat Nick]

@ smash: yeah, but as you can clearly see, Janaff/Ulki are not exactly low maintenance. They need some form of favoritism/resources if they're ever going to stop sucking.

[-Cynthia-]

@ smash: yeah, but as you can clearly see, Janaff/Ulki are not exactly low maintenance. They need some form of favoritism/resources if they're ever going to stop sucking.

Really all Janaff needs is the Demi Band for the last 4 turns or so, beyond that he really doesn't need anything at all. Rolf on the other hand, needs a lot of BEXP, forges, a favorable support set, walled off on a lot of maps etc. It's a lot worse.

I put Rolf above Ulki for now.

Edited September 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Anyone think Shinon can move above the Janaff? His earlygame utility is hax and if Rofl isn't in play, he can make good use of the bows around which he practically has a monopoly over in the next few chapters which are filled with fliers. He also has the brave bow and wtf awesome growths to help his offence.

Not to mention he's more likely to support someone (Gatrie) than Janaff is.

[Dat Nick]

Really all Janaff needs is the Demi Band for the last 4 turns or so, beyond that he really doesn't need anything at all.

uh no

he's 2RKOing stuff without the demi and 3RKOing with it

"lol Demi Band" does not magically solve all of Janaff's problems. He needs more strength. A lot more.

[grandjackal]

Anyone think Shinon can move above the Janaff? His earlygame utility is hax and if Rofl isn't in play, he can make good use of the bows around which he practically has a monopoly over in the next few chapters which are filled with fliers. He also has the brave bow and wtf awesome growths to help his offence.

Not to mention he's more likely to support someone (Gatrie) than Janaff is.

Pretty much ALL of the reason he's up there is because of earlygame. When he returns, he's bound to be quite worse than Rolf, who Janaff seems to have some form of a case against.

Unless earlygame can score Shinon some levels...

[Sol Hiryu]

Really all Janaff needs is the Demi Band for the last 4 turns or so, beyond that he really doesn't need anything at all. Rolf on the other hand, needs a lot of BEXP, forges, a favorable support set, walled off on a lot of maps etc. It's a lot worse.

Er, no offense, but did you read my post at all? The issue of Janaff getting and using the Demi Band for around the last four turns is problematic in itself, especially if there are other laguz in play. And once again, the Demi Band will make his offense problems worse. Sure, he won't have to worry about gauge when he's attacking/getting attacked, but when his 2RKOs start going into 3RKOs and even 4RKOs, that brings up the whole thing of his enemy phase not being productive at all.

No one is denying that Rolf needs BEXP in the beginning to get started, but I think you're paying too much attention to it. Narga made a good post a few pages back about he actually doesn't take as much BEXP from the others as you might think. A lot of your characters will need a forge at one point at another, and penalizing Rolf because of that is a bit awkward.

All Rolf really wants is Rhys, as even a B will give him what he wants. It's the more favorable one since they're both backliners, and Rhys really doesn't care because all of his supports are one-sided. Rolf could get a B Marcia, but that's probably only if she doesn't want Kieran for some reason. Not really that hard.

Getting walled off? Chapters 12 through 17 are completely filled with chokepoints, with the exception of 15. I'd see your point if the maps were a lot more open, but as it is, it's easy enough to have characters block off the bridge without knowing it.

[Dat Nick]

To capitalize on previous points:

Why is everybody saying Rolf's consumption of resources is such a big deal anyway? Rolf takes as much resources as Boyd. Actually less since Boyd is able to get BEXP for longer and Boyd gets more kills due to being 10x better at fighting. Yet nobody cares that Boyd's eating resources, and yet it's considered a mortal sin when Rolf gets any kills or BEXP whatsoever. I fail to see how Rolf consumes any more resources than High/Top tiers that are, in actual statistical terms, taking a lot more of the same resources than he is, and yet he's getting penalized for it while nobody else is.

I mean really, you people make it sound like we're soloing maps with Rolf and giving him every shred of BEXP we have. Fact of the matter is we're not giving him any more than any other unit on our team, and nobody ever uses "consumption of resources" as a point against Ike or Boyd or Oscar or whatever whereas it's almost always used as a point against Rolf.

btw Bastian sucks and everything but is there really a tier difference between him and Lucia?

Edited September 16, 2009 by Joker

[Sol Hiryu]

That's a good question, one that I've been wondering myself. Being level one, he takes a lot less BEXP to get to the point where we want him, and then you can just forgo giving him any of it at all until after Ch. 15 or 16, depending if you want to push him to promotion before 18.

Now, if Rolf needed anything besides BEXP and a forge, then I would say he needed a lot of resources to get to the point where he is now, but...the fact is, he doesn't. Yes, he does need more BEXP at the start, and even that amount is offset by the fact that you get a lot more in the next few chapters, especially if he uses none of it. There's also the fact that he can also make full use of any of the growth bands available, which do help.

Going over this whole topic, I kinda feel like the general feeling is that if you're not a upper mid unit and haven't been since the beginning, any consumption of resources takes away from them and automatically makes you low/bottom. That's changed since then, but then you have people going "but I could have given that BEXP to Ike/Boyd/Oscar/Mist". But that's just me.

---

Back on topic, I feel that the top half of Low is kinda odd.

As of right now, it's like this:

Low

Janaff

Shinon

Elincia

Rolf

I don't know where the Janaff > Shinon comparison is, but I'd like to look at it. Rolf is already comparable to Janaff if trained, and the poor hawk's offense will not even improve all that much over the next few chapters.

However, I'm unsure of Rolf's position regarding Shinon and Elincia. The former has great early game utility, while the latter has three chapters of being a flying healer. I'd like to think that Rolf might have a case against Shinon, but I'm unsure about Elincia, due to healing utility and all that. All this means is that Janaff just might have to drop if he's not as useful as the other two below him.

ETA: When did Lucia move up? I don't recall any arguments about that. o.o

Edited September 16, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

To capitalize on previous points:

Why is everybody saying Rolf's consumption of resources is such a big deal anyway? Rolf takes as much resources as Boyd. Actually less since Boyd is able to get BEXP for longer and Boyd gets more kills due to being 10x better at fighting. Yet nobody cares that Boyd's eating resources, and yet it's considered a mortal sin when Rolf gets any kills or BEXP whatsoever. I fail to see how Rolf consumes any more resources than High/Top tiers that are, in actual statistical terms, taking a lot more of the same resources than he is, and yet he's getting penalized for it while nobody else is.

I mean really, you people make it sound like we're soloing maps with Rolf and giving him every shred of BEXP we have. Fact of the matter is we're not giving him any more than any other unit on our team, and nobody ever uses "consumption of resources" as a point against Ike or Boyd or Oscar or whatever whereas it's almost always used as a point against Rolf.

btw Bastian sucks and everything but is there really a tier difference between him and Lucia?

I thought we decided he did take more BEXP than everybody else to catch up. If 411 BEXP a character is accepted as fair share in Ch10

[grandjackal]

One thing I should note is by the time Shinon returns, Rolf SHOULD be destroying him pretty badly...if it counts.

[Sol Hiryu]

Make no mistake, he actually does take more than his fair share if you're only using a team of 10 units, but I think the actual issue is that some people are blowing it way out of proportion.

IIRC, all he takes is ~738 BEXP total to get to level 9. By that point, assuming max BEXP or close to it, you should have around 2800 to 3000 of it. Some of it has probably been used on a few units here and there, which is alright. This is assuming that we're giving this to him in the beginning of Chapter 11, since 10 is just total stealth and he should have no reason to be there.

Edited September 17, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Dat Nick]

I thought we decided he did take more BEXP than everybody else to catch up. If 411 BEXP a character is accepted as fair share in Ch10

We're not showering Rolf with BEXP to get him to "catch up". We're giving him what's available for him without favoritism.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I thought we decided he did take more BEXP than everybody else to catch up. If 411 BEXP a character is accepted as fair share in Ch10

We're not showering Rolf with BEXP to get him to "catch up". We're giving him what's available for him without favoritism.

I didn't mean to say we were showering him with BEXP, but it doesn't make sense to say he only takes an equal share.

[Soren9934]

shinnon is only decent dearly game.

in which case he takes kills and prevents other units from then,

janaff needs to be loved a little demi band doesn't help all his issues

soren needs to be a little high tier he isn't a rapiest but he IS useful since callil is only it for 10 chapters

[grandjackal]

shinnon is only decent dearly game.

in which case he takes kills and prevents other units from then,

janaff needs to be loved a little demi band doesn't help all his issues

soren needs to be a little high tier he isn't a rapiest but he IS useful since callil is only it for 10 chapters

Shinon DOES have great growths though.

When Boyd kills someone, he takes a kill from the rest of the team, when Oscar kills someone, he takes a kill from the team, when Ike-

I don't even know what you're trying to say about Janaff.

Soren kinda sucks prior to Calill's eistence, of which is at least exceptional.

[Soren9934]

my point about taking kills is that shinon gets say 3-4 points for it as opposed to oscar getting 20 exp for taking a kill making him to much of a fe 11 jagan(but with growths) early on and to weak when u get him back, if your dedicated he is useful but

[Eltoshen]

my point about taking kills is that shinon gets say 3-4 points for it as opposed to oscar getting 20 exp for taking a kill making him to much of a fe 11 jagan(but with growths) early on and to weak when u get him back, if your dedicated he is useful but

but what?

It's not like Shinon is killing everything. His kills don't obstruct your other characters from leveling up.

[Sol Hiryu]

Shinon is in the interesting position of being the only mercenary early game that disappears entirely until Chapter 18. Gatrie at least comes back several chapters before that.

Regardless, Shinon is pretty much forced onto every map that has him available early-game, and it's obvious that using him is > not using him. While I think it can be honestly argued that whatever he kills he takes away because he doesn't exist for a long time after he leaves, he still contributes positively to each chapter he's in because his player phase offense easily trumps everyone's but Titania's.

[Rodykitty]

I thought we decided he did take more BEXP than everybody else to catch up. If 411 BEXP a character is accepted as fair share in Ch10

We're not showering Rolf with BEXP to get him to "catch up". We're giving him what's available for him without favoritism.

I didn't mean to say we were showering him with BEXP, but it doesn't make sense to say he only takes an equal share.

Why not? It's favortism to give him more, isn't it?

Besides the whole Rolf ordeal shouldn't be about him catching up with other characters He obviously can't do that with favortism. It's whether him + fair share of BEXP then having to work to level up is better than the late game failures.