FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

Marcia's utility before Tanith joins is extremely high, the utility of the mages before Calill joins seems fairly low according to most people's playthroughs.

[aku chi]

Marcia's utility before Tanith joins is extremely high, the utility of the mages before Calill joins seems fairly low according to most people's playthroughs.

The Falcon Knights' utility after Tanith joins is extremely high, the utility of the Sages after Calill joins is comparatively low. That's why the Falcon Knights are in High and Top tier, and the Sages are in Mid tier. But the essentials of the Marcia vs. Tanith comparison is similar to the essentials of the Soren vs. Calill comparison. Both pit a unit with more availability (and, hence, contributions) that needs resources to match the performance of a late-joining unit. Yet the tier list seems to assign a greater penalty to the resources Soren needs to match Calill's post-C20 performance than the resources Marcia needs to match Tanith's post-C18 performance. Why should this be?

Edit: Upon further thought, I see some issues with my argument. I still think Calill is too high, but I won't pursue the Falcon Knight comparison further.

Edited September 29, 2012 by aku chi

[Lord Raven]

1. Typing without punctuation doesn't make you cool.

no but it's a way of being efficient, among others

2. Do you really have to repeat everything you say over and over again like a broken record?

ah accusing others of doing something you already do, pure brilliance

I thought Ilyana wasn't even that far below soren

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Forgive me for the necropost, however, I do have a small contribution to make.

I think Largo can stand to move above Elincia. I'm doing a lot of personal experience here, but I want to try to look at the big picture. I'm on an HM playthrough right now, in which I've been using Largo. Currently he's better than my trained Boyd, in that he reliably doubles Tigers, something Boyd fails to do unless they're the 16 AS Tigers.

Currently Largo and Boyd in my run are the same level. A 20/11 Boyd has, on average, less HP, Skill, and Speed. An Average Boyd has 19.6 Speed, let's round to 20 because I'm being generous and my Boyd has 20. Largo has 21.8 Speed at the same level, let's assume 22. It's not impossible to get Largo those four levels from Chapters 25-28; in 25 he can contribute to the rout, he can take on most of the enemies in 26 while Ike/Bosskiller is rushed to Bertram's position, and Largo holds his own against most non-mages in 27. In 28, he doubles Tigers, Hawks, and low AS Dragons, as well as every Beorc that isn't the Swordmaster or the boss. With his average 23.8 Strength, he has... 49-50 effective MT with a Laguz Axe, which ORKO's anything with <18 AS, which is a lot. An average Boyd will have 51-52 effective MT, doubling anything with <16 AS. My Boyd is actually STR blessed with 28, so he's at 54 MT, still not doubling besides some slow Tigers. That does allow him to OHKO the weakest Hawks and some weaker Ravens and Cats. The thing is, Largo does it too, and if he's not OHKOing them, he's ORKOing them.

Elincia, on the other hand, has flight and staves, which is nice, but in terms of availability, she has 26, 27, and 29. None of those allow her to use her flight to the best advantages; in fact, horses fare equally well. A fully trained Mist, which is highly likely, can do everything Elincia can and not die. I have a very heavily favored Mist, but she literally did Elincia's job and more. Even a 20/1 Mist has 5 Magic on Elincia; my Mist at C28 is 20/17. Just sayin'. Plus, Mist can take a Sonic Sword or a forged Steel Sword and be just fine in combat because of her crazy awesome Avoid and highly likely Jill A adds to durability. Elincia's support options suck or are already full (see: Ike). Not that Largo's are better (he's got Muarim A in my run).

In fact I'd advocate for Elincia to move even lower considering she's just a second rate Mist with much worse combat.

[Snowy_One]

Forgive me for the necropost, however, I do have a small contribution to make.

I think Largo can stand to move above Elincia. I'm doing a lot of personal experience here, but I want to try to look at the big picture. I'm on an HM playthrough right now, in which I've been using Largo. Currently he's better than my trained Boyd, in that he reliably doubles Tigers, something Boyd fails to do unless they're the 16 AS Tigers.

I don't think there really is such a thing as a 'necrobump' for a tier topic so long as it actually has stuff to provide. Things change over time after all and new ideas and methods come forth.

While it is true that Largo has a minor speed edge on Boyd, it's by no more than two points even at max level and it ignores that there are ways to fix Boyd's speed problem; such as using speed-bands and/or a speedwing if they really get bad. Using a Speedwing on Boyd is not a poor investment either as he's around for almost the entire game so any items used on him give much greater returns.

Currently Largo and Boyd in my run are the same level. A 20/11 Boyd has, on average, less HP, Skill, and Speed. An Average Boyd has 19.6 Speed, let's round to 20 because I'm being generous and my Boyd has 20. Largo has 21.8 Speed at the same level, let's assume 22. It's not impossible to get Largo those four levels from Chapters 25-28; in 25 he can contribute to the rout, he can take on most of the enemies in 26 while Ike/Bosskiller is rushed to Bertram's position, and Largo holds his own against most non-mages in 27. In 28, he doubles Tigers, Hawks, and low AS Dragons, as well as every Beorc that isn't the Swordmaster or the boss. With his average 23.8 Strength, he has... 49-50 effective MT with a Laguz Axe, which ORKO's anything with <18 AS, which is a lot. An average Boyd will have 51-52 effective MT, doubling anything with <16 AS. My Boyd is actually STR blessed with 28, so he's at 54 MT, still not doubling besides some slow Tigers. That does allow him to OHKO the weakest Hawks and some weaker Ravens and Cats. The thing is, Largo does it too, and if he's not OHKOing them, he's ORKOing them.

I don't think anyone really disputes that Largo *can* be good. I suspect his low tier rating is more of a combination of him having a poor join time (25 meaning he has only four chapters of use) and not being really anything unique for a unit. He's just another foot soldier at best. One with a late join time.

Elincia, on the other hand, has flight and staves, which is nice, but in terms of availability, she has 26, 27, and 29. None of those allow her to use her flight to the best advantages; in fact, horses fare equally well. A fully trained Mist, which is highly likely, can do everything Elincia can and not die. I have a very heavily favored Mist, but she literally did Elincia's job and more. Even a 20/1 Mist has 5 Magic on Elincia; my Mist at C28 is 20/17. Just sayin'. Plus, Mist can take a Sonic Sword or a forged Steel Sword and be just fine in combat because of her crazy awesome Avoid and highly likely Jill A adds to durability. Elincia's support options suck or are already full (see: Ike). Not that Largo's are better (he's got Muarim A in my run).

While I don't agree with LTC playstyles, flight is very useful for them. At the least it allows Elincia to keep up with the mounted units without problem and can serve to aid in rescue-drops and is something a fully-trained Mist cannot do. Not to mention her free brave sword which gives her a definite edge on Mist. I don't know if this is the case or not, but I suspect Elincia's placement over Largo is because of her flight and the fact that healers are, largely, stat-independent.

In fact I'd advocate for Elincia to move even lower considering she's just a second rate Mist with much worse combat.

I would say that Largo is just a second-rate Boyd with worse availability and should move just as much lower.

[-Cynthia-]

Forgive me for the necropost, however, I do have a small contribution to make.

I think Largo can stand to move above Elincia. I'm doing a lot of personal experience here, but I want to try to look at the big picture. I'm on an HM playthrough right now, in which I've been using Largo. Currently he's better than my trained Boyd, in that he reliably doubles Tigers, something Boyd fails to do unless they're the 16 AS Tigers.

Currently Largo and Boyd in my run are the same level. A 20/11 Boyd has, on average, less HP, Skill, and Speed. An Average Boyd has 19.6 Speed, let's round to 20 because I'm being generous and my Boyd has 20. Largo has 21.8 Speed at the same level, let's assume 22. It's not impossible to get Largo those four levels from Chapters 25-28; in 25 he can contribute to the rout, he can take on most of the enemies in 26 while Ike/Bosskiller is rushed to Bertram's position, and Largo holds his own against most non-mages in 27. In 28, he doubles Tigers, Hawks, and low AS Dragons, as well as every Beorc that isn't the Swordmaster or the boss. With his average 23.8 Strength, he has... 49-50 effective MT with a Laguz Axe, which ORKO's anything with <18 AS, which is a lot. An average Boyd will have 51-52 effective MT, doubling anything with <16 AS. My Boyd is actually STR blessed with 28, so he's at 54 MT, still not doubling besides some slow Tigers. That does allow him to OHKO the weakest Hawks and some weaker Ravens and Cats. The thing is, Largo does it too, and if he's not OHKOing them, he's ORKOing them.

Well I might add that Boyd usually has 2 more Spd than his averages- he is the prime candidate for the Chapter 2 Speedwing and all. Largo's offense is quite impressive though.

Elincia, on the other hand, has flight and staves, which is nice, but in terms of availability, she has 26, 27, and 29. None of those allow her to use her flight to the best advantages; in fact, horses fare equally well. A fully trained Mist, which is highly likely, can do everything Elincia can and not die. I have a very heavily favored Mist, but she literally did Elincia's job and more. Even a 20/1 Mist has 5 Magic on Elincia; my Mist at C28 is 20/17. Just sayin'. Plus, Mist can take a Sonic Sword or a forged Steel Sword and be just fine in combat because of her crazy awesome Avoid and highly likely Jill A adds to durability. Elincia's support options suck or are already full (see: Ike). Not that Largo's are better (he's got Muarim A in my run).

In fact I'd advocate for Elincia to move even lower considering she's just a second rate Mist with much worse combat.

Elincia's position is mostly a product of her being able to use the Rescue staff to lower our turncounts a little bit. A promoted Mist does have the same Mov, but Elincia's flight gives her a slight Rescue staff edge in Final. I would agree that Elincia isn't very good outside of this specific use though, so it's a tough comparison.

[Zkirsche]

Also we don't have to dump BEXP into Elincia for that MOV, whereas we do for Mist.

[Snowy_One]

Too be fair, I don't disagree with your grounds for wanting Largo to be higher up on the list (even if Elincia joined with all her stats capped, she's only around for two chapters after all), but the tier list at the moment assumes the player is going for as low a turn-count as can be managed. If it was not, Largo would likely be a bit higher up and Elincia would be lower (You have Mist, Rhys, and the sages already healing and Tanith, Marcia, Jill, and Haar for fliers).

[ClLoulD]

I agree with bringing Largo up over Elincia for a few reasons. Elincia get's her own brave sword which is nice but she never get's the strength she needs to back it up even when she has a capped strength (20), if this was at chapter 20 or so then yes I she would be pretty useful but it isn't. Largo isn't that durable granted but Elincia if she doesn't kill something and then get out of the way (which isn't always possible with canto) then I have to bring all my other characters around her to guard her, furthermore Largo isn't receiving bonus damage from snipers and ballista's. Ok but Elincia's main usefulness is healing and rescuing but we have Mist for that and we have probably already invested a lot of experience in Mist for the BK fight and the longer contribution she has made in the previous 20 chapters, so why would we bring Elincia as well? If we need another healer at any point just keep a staff on Soren or Ilyana or someone.

Just my opinion, don't hate.

[Snowy_One]

Speaking of which... Why is Mia below Zihark? I'm not going to get into a fight about if Mia's offense/flexibility is superior to Zihark's AVO supports, but I am curious. Namely because neither swordmaster does something truly amazing for turn-count reduction, but Mia can offer help for reducing turncounts before Zihark joins while Zihark can end up costing us turns by waylaying a Laguz, can cost us BEXP, and after joining doesn't do anything really exceptional for turncount reduction that Mia couldn't also do.

[Espinosa]

Zihark can be recruited on turn 1 (he recruits himself), all you need is Mordy and another unequipped unit to lure in a Myrmidon away from Mordecai.

Mia has more strength issues in comparison and requires a load of BEXP to be useful past her join chapter. Sure, she might help shave off a turn, but so can Boyd, and the opportunity cost of training Mia is very high.

[Chiki]

I don't think training Mia has any opportunity cost: you're free to do what you want in Chapter 8. Opportunity cost compared to Zihark anyway.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Olwen

[Snowy_One]

Does it matter? Even if she's shaving off one more turn, unless Zihark can provide a similar reduction, Mia will be better. Also, Mia's STR problems can be fixed with a band, support, or energy drop. While the first and last may be costly, they are less important than the vantage scroll and possible wrath/guard it would take Zihark to do the same and, while Muarim's support may be good and all, does it actually do anything for reducing turncounts?

What I'm basically saying is that, well... Let's assume Mia saves 1 turn on average while Zihark saves 1.1 turns for being *slightly* better than her at best. Mia joins several chapters earlier and it's unclear if Zihark can really make any contributions in his chapter, but I'll be gracious. Mia gets 4 chapters before Zihark joins, so by endgame she'd save us ~22ish turns while Zihark saves us 19ish turns. Now, I obviously don't expect them to save 1 turn every chapter just by being there, but for all intents and purposes, anything Zihark can do Mia can do as well, so if Mia can't shave a turn off, it's unlikely Zihark would be able to either.

But isn't Zihark stronger and have more avoid? Well... Yes. However, there are some caviots to that. 1) Yes, Zihark DOES have more STR, but it's only by 3 points average... and that's assuming Mia wasn't leveled at all since her joining. This is fixable with a energy drop. Yes, they are valuable, but you get two. This means that no one unit is screwed out of a drop by Mia taking one. Mia can still take one and someone else can get the second. As for his avoid, Zihark NEEDS his supports. If, for any reason, Muarim, Ilyana, or Brom are not played or are out of range Zihark's avoid advantage vanishes. So of Zihark's two primary advantages, one is fixable (if costly) and the other is situational.

As for Mia's advantages, her earlier join time simply can not be competed with by Zihark. Mia has a MUCH better skill than Zihark as well. On it's own vantage allows for at least the potential to crit a foe before an attack on the EP or kill a weakened foe, and that doesn't change that it combos well with Adept, wrath, guard, and potentially resolve. Yes, Zihark can take the vantage scroll when it comes, but that doesn't come till 14 (as opposed to Mia's 13) and he still needs the corresponding scroll if he wants any combo other than Vantage/adept. Additionally, Mia can get even more attack if Rhys is in play. You can argue that's unlikely, sure, especially for LTC. But it's still not IMPOSSIBLE.

So it seems to me that Mia's primary problem (her STR) is fixable and doesn't screw a unit out of a drop and may even end up with more attack than Zihark (if Zihark's +2-3 STR is really that important, than Mia being able to get +2-3 with her supports should like-wise be important). Meanwhile, Zihark's requirements to compete on the same level involve a non-replacible scroll that could easily be more valuable than the drop, two if a different combo is needed, and after all that, his primary 'edge' over Mia is in avoid. Even then, only when he's in range of Muarim or Ilyana (and if he can be in range of Ilyana, Mia can be in range of her as well). And that doesn't change that Mia joins earlier and, as a result, can help shave turns off before Zihark even exists.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Vorena]

A few things in your argument have a couple of issues. Despite there being energy drops available, the fact you have to sink it into a unit to make them on par with another character is not a very convincing argument. The bottom-line for it is using up a resource to mitigate an advantage another character has does not reduce that advantage. The only thing that is reasonable to diminish a strength is to use another characters strength as a counter.

And as it is, the only advantage Mia has over Zihark are supports, earlier recruitment, and free vantage. I consider their stats to be so close generally except strength that they are fairly negligible. A 2-3 point lead in strength is fairly significant as it can turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO, etc. A little boost in skill only affects things like luck by at max 4% of something. However, the early advantage has to be considered. How much is Mia actually going to be doing? My recent normal mode play-through, she wasn't providing much assistance until much, much later. Her damage output is so low along with other defenses that she needs to be feed experience to catch-up to what Zihark is already going to be like at chapter 11. Not sure how much usage it is to debate vantage. Its there, but the uses for it hard to gauge (imo) since its not often an enemy will be left a OHKO hp meter on enemy phase and that it will necessarily target Mia.

I find Zihark to be slightly better due to have virtually no training requirement unlike mia who will require some annoying care for a number of chapters before its really negligible whether you use Zihark or her. Early recruitment advantage isn't all that great since she needs to be feed kills to level up. Vantage too isn't too much of a strength, but there. And supports are generally in Zihark's if only slightly.

I guess the short of it is like what Espinosa said. Mia requires a training cost that diminishes her early chapter join time.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Erika the Explosive One

[Chiki]

Personal experience doesn't mean much. My record hard mode playthrough had Mia in the top 5.

[Vorena]

We are making generalizations about something which is really dependent upon a lot of factors. Personal experience is vital component for backing up some arguments and quickly making rough estimations to help in discussion. For example, saying Mia is going to be level 20 by the time Zihark shows up can quickly be debunked because we know the only way that would be remotely possible is a heavy investment in boss KOs, Bexp, etc. How would you know that unless you had some prior experience Okay, well... knowing the upper and lower extremes of a character's level is easier to spot, but its usually by experience that one can get a more accurate gauge of what is a reasonable guess at a character's level for a given chapter. One who has attempted a specific scenario has more relevant personal experience than other does. Anyway, personal experience shouldn't necessarily be belittled too much as there are times where it is valuable.

But, back to the situation above for my "experience" in normal mode was primarily used as an emphasis on Mia's earlier training investments which if are apparent in normal mode are more apparent in hard mode. That was really the only sort of point I wanted to take away from that.

"My record hard mode playthrough had Mia in the top 5. "

No idea what purpose this is suppose to serve o.0

[Snowy_One]

A few things in your argument have a couple of issues. Despite there being energy drops available, the fact you have to sink it into a unit to make them on par with another character is not a very convincing argument. The bottom-line for it is using up a resource to mitigate an advantage another character has does not reduce that advantage. The only thing that is reasonable to diminish a strength is to use another characters strength as a counter.

Erm, not 'On Par'. 'Better'. Zihark has only two primary advantages on Mia, those being his natural STR and his avoid. Mia has superior join time, supports, and skills. Zihark's advantage in STR can be, for all intents and purposes, negated though. Mia's supports and join time can't be negated in return by Zihark.

And as it is, the only advantage Mia has over Zihark are supports, earlier recruitment, and free vantage.

Those aren't minor advantages you know. Mia's supports are pretty huge, her earlier recruitment allows for her to help shave off more turns than Zihark (as I pointed out. Even if Zihark's minor advantage shaves off .1 turns more on average than Mia, her join time gives her a notable lead in turns saved.), and her skill set is not only harder to duplicate (requiring Zihark to take two skills for anything other than vantage/adept, but vantage coming after the energy drop.) but is easily one of, if not the, best skill combos in the game that doesn't involve a mastery.

I consider their stats to be so close generally except strength that they are fairly negligible. A 2-3 point lead in strength is fairly significant as it can turn a 3HKO into a 2HKO, etc.

Mia can manage up to a +4 attack from her supports with Rhys and Ilyana. If she's given an energy drop or a band, this puts her at 26 MT assuming she caps. The most Zihark can get is 25 and that's assuming he supports Brom who isn't exactly the best (Brom is lower-mid, Rhys and Ilyana are both mid). Otherwise it's 24 MT for Zihark at best. It seems to me that Mia has the edge in 'potential strength' no matter how you cut it.

A little boost in skill only affects things like luck by at max 4% of something.

Normally I would agree with you, but Mia is one of the VERY few characters who can manage a 100% hit rate with gamble (before avoid) with a weapon. Check it. A forged SS has 105 hit and Mia can get up to 25 hit from Rhys/Ilyana for 100 and her luck and SKL tack on an extra 75 or so (max level) which totals up to 205 or 102 after gamble is activated. Yes, the enemy has their own AVO and you won't always have these weapons and such, but Zihark with the same weapon and level comes in with only 93 hit when it's activated. So, if either SM tries to gamble (they're really the only way it can be useful except for maybe Largo) Mia will have an edge. Otherwise, you're right.

For example, saying Mia is going to be level 20 by the time Zihark shows up can quickly be debunked because we know the only way that would be remotely possible is a heavy investment in boss KOs, Bexp, etc. How would you know that unless you had some prior experience Okay, well... knowing the upper and lower extremes of a character's level is easier to spot, but its usually by experience that one can get a more accurate gauge of what is a reasonable guess at a character's level for a given chapter. One who has attempted a specific scenario has more relevant personal experience than other does. Anyway, personal experience shouldn't necessarily be belittled too much as there are times where it is valuable.

I generally assume all units have equal right to an equal number of resources before it becomes 'favoritism' in debates. Ergo, it doesn't matter if we're talking Oscar or Rolf in a 10-man team, each has an equal claim to 1/10th of the Bexp undisputed. If Oscar doesn't need the BEXP or can give a VERY good return for going above that threshold, that's a point in his favor while Rolf, who doesn't give a good return and may not do so well without Bexp making it so he 'needs' the Bexp would simply not get any credit for his investment and get penalized (both him and Oscar get the same negative, but Oscar gets more than enough benefit to overcome it) for going over.

And obviously PE isn't *useless*. When it comes down to actually playing the game, if Titania is at the top of the tier list but just isn't getting the stat-ups, you'd be a fool to keep her on the team after a certain point in the game. And if we didn't have people experimenting around we'd be stuck in strategies of just 'walk through the path and make it to the exit'. This is the disharmony between the tier list and the game as well as the tier-list paradox. PEMN but PEME. Usually this tier list tries to assume fixed, but not only do I dislike fixed personally, but it seems to me just assuming characters will be at their average stat and not being stupid should be more than enough to counter it.

[ClLoulD]

"Zihark NEEDS his supports. If, for any reason, Muarim, Ilyana, or Brom are not played or are out of range Zihark's avoid advantage vanishes."

"Additionally, Mia can get even more attack if Rhys is in play. You can argue that's unlikely, sure, especially for LTC. But it's still not IMPOSSIBLE."

Is Mia really worth bringing a unit like Rhys in over someone else? Muarim can at least contribute something. Look at how much trouble we have to go through to make Mia "better" than Zihark an energy drop as well as bringing in Rhys who most people dump because he's a temporary unit at best.

[Chiki]

No idea what purpose this is suppose to serve o.0

You were judging Mia with your personal experience, and I'm judging her with mine. Personal experience is crucial am I right?

Put Mia in the top tier now! Personal experience means all!

[Snowy_One]

"Zihark NEEDS his supports. If, for any reason, Muarim, Ilyana, or Brom are not played or are out of range Zihark's avoid advantage vanishes."

"Additionally, Mia can get even more attack if Rhys is in play. You can argue that's unlikely, sure, especially for LTC. But it's still not IMPOSSIBLE."

Is Mia really worth bringing a unit like Rhys in over someone else? Muarim can at least contribute something. Look at how much trouble we have to go through to make Mia "better" than Zihark an energy drop as well as bringing in Rhys who most people dump because he's a temporary unit at best.

Here is the thing. Rhys performs the same basic role as Mist until she promotes as a healer and, while post promo, Mist can serve as a pony express, Rhys can still serve as a healer which is a job that isn't really stat-dependent. If Rhys gets a physic staff keeping him deployed and at least doing something, even if it's just slapping band-aids on papercuts, is entirely possible without it being a true threat to Rhys. And, if Mist isn't deployed (very possible in non-LTC runs), Rhys is the natural go-to secondary.

Muarim, however, has to compete with Lethe, Mordi, and every other fighter unit for continued deployment and, if he doesn't get exp, he loses his ability to fight. Even if he does he will have issues due to the fact that Laguz are basically equipped with eternal steel weapons while Beorc can upgrade to silver and whatnot and, if Muarim/Ilyana/Brom isn't deployed for any reason, Zihark's AVO lead simply goes away. Mia's STR problems can still be fixed though and she still has the superior join time and skill-set.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Snowy_One

[-Cynthia-]

Here is the thing. Rhys performs the same basic role as Mist until she promotes as a healer and, while post promo, Mist can serve as a pony express, Rhys can still serve as a healer which is a job that isn't really stat-dependent. If Rhys gets a physic staff keeping him deployed and at least doing something, even if it's just slapping band-aids on papercuts, is entirely possible without it being a true threat to Rhys. And, if Mist isn't deployed (very possible in non-LTC runs), Rhys is the natural go-to secondary.

Muarim, however, has to compete with Lethe, Mordi, and every other fighter unit for continued deployment and, if he doesn't get exp, he loses his ability to fight. Even if he does he will have issues due to the fact that Laguz are basically equipped with eternal steel weapons while Beorc can upgrade to silver and whatnot and, if Muarim/Ilyana/Brom isn't deployed for any reason, Zihark's AVO lead simply goes away. Mia's STR problems can still be fixed though and she still has the superior join time and skill-set.

If Rhys is using a Physic staff, he's probably not within support range of Mia. That's part of the problem with the Rhys support- he's not really good at combat so he's unlikely to be on the frontlines with Mia. The other problem is that unit durability is so high it's often questionable whether we even need one healer, let alone two.

I don't see why Zihark necessarily 'needs' his supports anyway, Mia and Zihark have nearly identical durability without either having supports in play, so that's hardly a point in her favor. If we're going on support likelihood, Zihark wins because Muarim is the best unit on both their support lists.

[Snowy_One]

If Rhys is using a physic staff he can be most anywhere. The staves allow Rhys's healing range to be determined by his magic so as long as he had one it is very unlikely that he will be unable to stay close to Mia because of 'having to heal someone else'. And, even if unit durability is high, unless all the slots on a team are filled there is little reason not to deploy Rhys, Mist, or a healer. Even if the entire focus of getting to the goal is elsewhere the only penalty that is suffered by deploying those units is that you may use up a few staff uses. And it's not that Zihark 'needs' his supports. It's that he only has two advantages over Mia and one of those advantages can not only be fixed, but be reversed. As for Muarim, as I said, Muarim, even if he is higher-tiered, has to compete with the other Laguz and every normal fighter unit for a spot. Rhys just has to deal with Mist and/or take a spot that wouldn't be used normally to build and offer his support to Mia. And if Muarim isn't played Zihark risks losing ALL his advantages because Mia can close the STR gap and Zihark's avoid lead will be gone and surmounted by vantage/something combo. If Rhys isn't played Mia can still take a drop to manage to close the STR gap between her and Zihark and still has the better skill set. The only advantage Zihark really has at that point is that one non-Mia unit can take the drop as opposed to two non-Mia units. Even THEN that doesn't change that the bands exist and Mia can take an STR one to ease her problems.

[Espinosa]

I guess Rhys is more likely to be in range of Mia than he is in range of, say, Titania. But still, the most likely scenario is Rhys moves in to heal somebody, getting in Mia's range and giving her +1/2/3 attack, and then if Mia wants to make use of that advantage, she can't move out of Rhys's support range; otherwise, she loses it.

If we argue Mia vs Zihark, why not compare Mia w/ Energy Drop vs. Zihark w/ Energy Drop? Zihark doesn't mind the extra strength at all, often facing WTD and swords being the weakest weapon. Also, since Mia isn't a OHKOing machine (she'll often crit but still fail to kill), you're overestimating the value of Vantage during an enemy phase. Zihark's Adept gives him a higher likelihood of one-rounding an enemy when doubling, so he's more reliable for combat purposes than Mia is.

Also when we talk about Mia shaving off a turn, it means Mia takes whatever combat experience she can from chapters 7 and 8, and then uses up most of your BEXP to promote (!) for chapter 9, allowing her to provide 2 additional Shoves for a 6-turn completion with Marcia recruited. This deprives Marcia, Kieran and other possible candidates for BEXP (Jill, Tormod et al) of their claim on BEXP for many chapters ahead. The opportunity cost is therefore very high, and not every player will feel obliged to 6-turn chapter 9 (and if one does, Boyd might seem like a more reliable investment and he's had plenty of opportunities to level up by now).

Finally, Rhys is competing for a unit slot just as much as any Laguz or combat unit; being a healer gives him no privilege when the relation between enemy attack and your defence isn't very threatening. Efficient completion of certain map objectives (including optional ones besides completion) may put Rhys into a position where fielding him deprives you of an additional mounted unit, shover or unit with other non-negligible utility. Meanwhile, Muarim boasts highly competent combat right off the bat when joining the party and can Shove/Smite until doomsday.

[Snowy_One]

I guess Rhys is more likely to be in range of Mia than he is in range of, say, Titania. But still, the most likely scenario is Rhys moves in to heal somebody, getting in Mia's range and giving her +1/2/3 attack, and then if Mia wants to make use of that advantage, she can't move out of Rhys's support range; otherwise, she loses it.

The same applies to Zihark and Muarim. But unlike Muarim, Rhys does not need to be in any particular position to heal once the physic staves come along. It is very feasible for him to simply stay close to Mia (it's not hard to predict where you will use her) and still heal or, if he REALLY needs to be away from her, to end close to wherever Reyson will canto to hurry back to her. Muarim does not have this luxury.

If we argue Mia vs Zihark, why not compare Mia w/ Energy Drop vs. Zihark w/ Energy Drop? Zihark doesn't mind the extra strength at all, often facing WTD and swords being the weakest weapon. Also, since Mia isn't a OHKOing machine (she'll often crit but still fail to kill), you're overestimating the value of Vantage during an enemy phase. Zihark's Adept gives him a higher likelihood of one-rounding an enemy when doubling, so he's more reliable for combat purposes than Mia is.

All that does is revert it to the same basic situation of 'Mia with no energy drop vs. Zihark with no drop' meaning, Zihark's base STR is higher, but Mia can surpass him with supports. However, there is a difference. Namely, Mia's STR is no longer as 'low' as it was before removing a lot of concerns about her damage that people may have had.

Also, adept really isn't all that amazing. When Zihark joins he has only a 13% chance (or so) of it being activated and it caps out at 29% at 20/18 or 19 depending on luck. Adept on its own won't be doing Zihark many favors. On average about 1 out of every 5 attacks will have adept activate for him. There is no guarentee as to what's happening on those attacks though. Yes, it *might* push a 3HKO foe into killable range, but it also might activate for a 4HKO foe and do little to nothing or activate on a counter of a 2HKO foe he already was doubling. Adept isn't useless, but it's in no way 'reliable' without vantage to aid it.

Vantage doesn't directly affect Adept, I know, but it does ensure that the unit gets a strike before the enemies first attack. This increases the chance that the adept will actually matter (killing a foe before taking/dodging a hit) than before. Vantage/wrath, however, remains the best skill combo for a swordmaster by far.

Also when we talk about Mia shaving off a turn, it means Mia takes whatever combat experience she can from chapters 7 and 8, and then uses up most of your BEXP to promote (!) for chapter 9, allowing her to provide 2 additional Shoves for a 6-turn completion with Marcia recruited. This deprives Marcia, Kieran and other possible candidates for BEXP (Jill, Tormod et al) of their claim on BEXP for many chapters ahead. The opportunity cost is therefore very high, and not every player will feel obliged to 6-turn chapter 9 (and if one does, Boyd might seem like a more reliable investment and he's had plenty of opportunities to level up by now).

Something tells me that this isn't exactly true at all and is a bit more of fanciful imagining to decry Mia and praise Zihark. Why? Well, simply put, just by using Mia for the chapters before Zihark joins she will be offering contributions and it takes a VERY jaded player to see her as a detriment to the team but at the same time seeing Zihark as offering better. Zihark's 'lesser' cost is countered by his lack/cost of potential and flexibility. However, anything Zihark can do after his join time, Mia should be more than capable of doing as well providing someone didn't hamfist her into weakness to worship the ground Zihark walks on.

Finally, Rhys is competing for a unit slot just as much as any Laguz or combat unit; being a healer gives him no privilege when the relation between enemy attack and your defence isn't very threatening. Efficient completion of certain map objectives (including optional ones besides completion) may put Rhys into a position where fielding him deprives you of an additional mounted unit, shover or unit with other non-negligible utility. Meanwhile, Muarim boasts highly competent combat right off the bat when joining the party and can Shove/Smite until doomsday.

Meanwhile using Muarim also means potentially depriving the team of a useful mounted unit, shover, or unit with non-negligable utility. The same standard applies to him that you're trying to slap Zihark with. Except Muarim either has to band (making him weaker) or wait and be outright restricted to shoving until his gauge fills/refills AND has to put up with Laguz perma-steel weapons regardless of what he does. And Muarim's untransformed speed is comparable to or worse than Ilyana's at similar levels, only gets 2 from banded transforms, so he seems FAR from certain to be a sure-in. He has a moment of shine in the mid-game when he joins, then gets outclassed by practically every other unit who can upgrade to better weapons and isn't quite as slow as him.

[Espinosa]

The same applies to Zihark and Muarim. But unlike Muarim, Rhys does not need to be in any particular position to heal once the physic staves come along. It is very feasible for him to simply stay close to Mia (it's not hard to predict where you will use her) and still heal or, if he REALLY needs to be away from her, to end close to wherever Reyson will canto to hurry back to her. Muarim does not have this luxury.

True, but Zihark can hit things harder than Mia without Muarim (or any other support partner) around.

Sure enough he does. Rhys has finite Physic range, and with 6 promoted move the distance between him and your mounted unit with Boots increases substantially. It's not entirely unlikely that we're Sealing Rhys since he levels quite slowly and a BEXP investment into him is not a very profitable decision.

If Rhys's support with Mia activates, that means Mia didn't advance very far. While there are some situations where Mia might have something to do close to one's starting position, they shouldn't occur too often in efficient play.

Reyson might also have better things to do than help glue Rhys to Mia.

All that does is revert it to the same basic situation of 'Mia with no energy drop vs. Zihark with no drop' meaning, Zihark's base STR is higher, but Mia can surpass him with supports. However, there is a difference. Namely, Mia's STR is no longer as 'low' as it was before removing a lot of concerns about her damage that people may have had.

Mia with her supports following her around + a drop vs Zihark may not be such a fair argument. How about I propose we argue Mia with basic weaponry against Zihark with a Steel sword forge (and later Silver forge)? Except I won't propose anything of the kind.

Let's remember that Zihark and Mia are foot units, ones we're not (or shouldn't be) terribly dependent on for fulfilling most chapter objectives. They clear the way, wander off in another direction or shove once or twice. Bosskilling isn't so bad that we want to drag an additional unit for this purpose.

Also, adept really isn't all that amazing. When Zihark joins he has only a 13% chance (or so) of it being activated and it caps out at 29% at 20/18 or 19 depending on luck. Adept on its own won't be doing Zihark many favors. On average about 1 out of every 5 attacks will have adept activate for him. There is no guarentee as to what's happening on those attacks though. Yes, it *might* push a 3HKO foe into killable range, but it also might activate for a 4HKO foe and do little to nothing or activate on a counter of a 2HKO foe he already was doubling. Adept isn't useless, but it's in no way 'reliable' without vantage to aid it.

29% is close to 1/3 of all attacks. When doubling, Zihark has a 50% chance to activate Adept. Paired with a killer weapon/Vague Katti/forge with crit, Zihark's chances of one-rounding an enemy he fails to double normally skyrockets. Mia has nothing of the kind.

Vantage doesn't directly affect Adept, I know, but it does ensure that the unit gets a strike before the enemies first attack. This increases the chance that the adept will actually matter (killing a foe before taking/dodging a hit) than before. Vantage/wrath, however, remains the best skill combo for a swordmaster by far.

How many Swordmaster skill combos do you know? There's not exactly a whole lot of choice. Vantage/Wrath is no doubt effective but still leaves you at risk of death (considering you've already lost more than half of your HP)

Something tells me that this isn't exactly true at all and is a bit more of fanciful imagining to decry Mia and praise Zihark. Why? Well, simply put, just by using Mia for the chapters before Zihark joins she will be offering contributions and it takes a VERY jaded player to see her as a detriment to the team but at the same time seeing Zihark as offering better. Zihark's 'lesser' cost is countered by his lack/cost of potential and flexibility. However, anything Zihark can do after his join time, Mia should be more than capable of doing as well providing someone didn't hamfist her into weakness to worship the ground Zihark walks on.

Most of Mia's contributions involve a substantial investment. At base, Mia's not doing a whole lot; maybe just chip at some enemies in chapter 7 and help save the villages in chapter 9. The more you want from Mia, the larger investment you have to make, and you never get much for your bargain. Zihark certainly isn't somebody worth worshipping, but he's better than Mia when both exist.

Meanwhile using Muarim also means potentially depriving the team of a useful mounted unit, shover, or unit with non-negligable utility. The same standard applies to him that you're trying to slap Zihark with. Except Muarim either has to band (making him weaker) or wait and be outright restricted to shoving until his gauge fills/refills AND has to put up with Laguz perma-steel weapons regardless of what he does. And Muarim's untransformed speed is comparable to or worse than Ilyana's at similar levels, only gets 2 from banded transforms, so he seems FAR from certain to be a sure-in. He has a moment of shine in the mid-game when he joins, then gets outclassed by practically every other unit who can upgrade to better weapons and isn't quite as slow as him.

But Muarim is all three in one product! He has the mobility of a mounted unit with the Demi Band, shoves and is good for smiting when you get the scroll, and his utility is one of the reasons to use him. Banding Muarim deprives him of 1 AS and 3 Mt. It's no disaster and he's still doing great in midgame at base level, combat wise and being in the right places at the right time. He shouldn't run around untransformed getting into enemies' range, I'd argue.

Are you saying Ilyana will be 20/9 when Muarim joins? Possible certainly, but I doubt any other decision taken in a playthrough where this happens can be taken seriously. Also, you're welcome to switch a unit out any time they're not contributing much on a particular map. Muarim's midgame combat and lategame utility (there can never be too much shoving) is unique and you get it at absolutely no cost, whereas Ilyana has many competitors who do some of the stuff with certain benefits she lacks. Soren has Adept much like Zihark, for instance; Tormod gets extra movement and could work on staff rank for Rescue, and Calill has great bases and requires no Arms Scrolls for siege tomes.