FE9 Tier list v3

[Espinosa]

Tormod adds nothing to reliability.

There's also things like convenience. It's more convenient to have one unit with miniscule risk of death ORKOing everything on the map at 1-2 range than having 2 mounted units try rather hard to rid the map of the enemies in the same number of turns, followed by a foot unit and 2 dedicated healers (I'm making the situation up but you get the idea) working hard to keep them alive, with another 2 mounted guys rescuedropping the healers so that they can continue to function. In that comparison, the first unit will be the most valuable one by far, even if 5 other units achieve the same thing just as reliably if you strategise enough (actually, a real example of this is Narron in TearRing Saga - might not shave off any turns but he still breaks the game).

Don't forget that the tier list is something drafters are supposed to consult (otherwise few people would be interested in one), and in draft context there's only one dude who has Marcia and he might not have the other optimal options; the rest still aren't freed from the challenge of shaving off turn with whatever they've got.

[Chiki]

My personal opinion is that 2 or more units are more "convenient" than one.

You have no counter argument to that. This is why I think tier lists can only be based on objectivity.

[Espinosa]

My personal opinion is that 2 or more units are more "convenient" than one.

You have no counter argument to that. This is why I think tier lists can only be based on objectivity.

A self-sufficient one-man army is more convenient than anything else. Hence the uber status characters like Seth, Haar and Sigurd get.

[Chiki]

A self-sufficient one-man army is more convenient than anything else. Hence the uber status characters like Seth, Haar and Sigurd get.

To you maybe, but not to others. I think using Oscar and Kieran together is more convenient than using, say, Jill. The rest of the world may disagree with me, but that doesn't make--my opinion--it false. When it comes to terms like "convenient," no side is right or wrong: we can only agree to disagree.

It's like debating between whether an action is good or evil. You can't know if an action is good just because the rest of the world says it is. America said it was good to enslave black people 300 years ago; see where that led us?

How can we base tier lists on things like that?

I'm probably taking this too far, but I think we can only base tier lists based on numbers and hard, solid facts.

[Life]

I'm not arguing that Zihak is better than Mia, I'm arguing that giving Mia BEXP and Zihark nothing then saying "Mia is better than Zihark" is favoritism.

Snowy explained my point rather poorly but not incorrectly.

There is no reason to not give Mia BExp in Chapter 8. She gets to a point where she lays Ike-level hurt on even Knights (Armourslayer is essentially locked on her). Considering that Chapter 8 is a self-improvement chapter and a good Mia is better than a mediocre Mia, Mia will have a retarded level lead on Zihark by the start of chapter 11, even considering the Chapter 10 pacifist route and not sinking a part of THAT BExp into Mia.

"But Zihark deserves the same amount of BExp as Mia!"

No, he doesn't. CommunistFE can be found in ROM Hacks. Here, we give units resources if they can use them well. And giving Mia ~350 BExp in Chapter 8 is worth a lot more than the same ~350 BExp on Zihark in Chapter 12. Namely, Mia's performance has a noticable rise and Zihark's doesn't. Throw in the fact that Mia is now closer to promotion than Zihark and any argument about Zihark being better gets tossed into a dumpster.

[Chiki]

Sorry, Mia > Zihark and all but your argument is just plain ignorant.

Mia will have a retarded level lead on Zihark by the start of chapter 11

It's an incredible exaggeration to think the level lead would be large unless you were going for the 6-turn on Chapter 9 something.

The game isn't a Mia solo. Oscar, Boyd, Ike, Soren, Ilyana etc. are around too.

http://fea.fewiki.ne...=zihark&game=9e

http://fea.fewiki.ne...ter=mia&game=9e

Level 10 Zihark is almost same statistically as a level 14 Mia. 1 point of def and 2-3 points of speed--big deal.

The only thing that puts Mia above Zihark is the Chapter 9 6-turn and the fact that she's one of two units that can pull it off.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Olwen

[Shotguner159]

Snowy explained my point rather poorly but not incorrectly.

There is no reason to not give Mia BExp in Chapter 8. She gets to a point where she lays Ike-level hurt on even Knights (Armourslayer is essentially locked on her). Considering that Chapter 8 is a self-improvement chapter and a good Mia is better than a mediocre Mia, Mia will have a retarded level lead on Zihark by the start of chapter 11, even considering the Chapter 10 pacifist route and not sinking a part of THAT BExp into Mia.

"But Zihark deserves the same amount of BExp as Mia!"

No, he doesn't. CommunistFE can be found in ROM Hacks. Here, we give units resources if they can use them well. And giving Mia ~350 BExp in Chapter 8 is worth a lot more than the same ~350 BExp on Zihark in Chapter 12. Namely, Mia's performance has a noticable rise and Zihark's doesn't. Throw in the fact that Mia is now closer to promotion than Zihark and any argument about Zihark being better gets tossed into a dumpster.

I'm not saying Zihark deserves the same amount of BEXP as Mia, nor am I saying that Zihark is better than Mia. What I am advocating is comparing the two when they've been given an equal amount of resources, as otherwise the equation is wonky. BEXPed Mia is obviously better than Base Zihark, and BEXPed Zihark is obviously better than a Mia that hasn't been given BEXP. When given equal amounts of BEXP, which is better? Answer: Mia, since she was given the BEXP when it became available, and is much improved, whereas Zihark has had his BEXP doing nothing for four Chapters, then isn't that much better when he does use it.

[Espinosa]

To you maybe, but not to others. I think using Oscar and Kieran together is more convenient than using, say, Jill. The rest of the world may disagree with me, but that doesn't make--my opinion--it false. When it comes to terms like "convenient," no side is right or wrong: we can only agree to disagree.

It's like debating between whether an action is good or evil. You can't know if an action is good just because the rest of the world says it is. America said it was good to enslave black people 300 years ago; see where that led us?

How can we base tier lists on things like that?

I'm probably taking this too far, but I think we can only base tier lists based on numbers and hard, solid facts.

We can debate anything as long as we have played the game and have good understanding of it. If you feel that Oscar and Kieran trained together is better than just one of them being in use (or Jill), then I might not have anything to say on the matter if you're not willing to put any effort into supporting that idea. Are they participating in a rescue chain that demands Paladin's promoted weight? Is one arriving while the other one is killing stuff on the way? Are they both in range of a ballista, making Jill a poor substitute? A promoted flier with Full Guard is qualitatively as good as any Paladin, sometimes shovable more easier (Marcia/Tanith), but also with advantages in cases of terrain, which is plentiful in this game.

You seem to assume that there's one particular way of playing the game right, or are indifferent to other possibilities, so it doesn't help when "but that's my opinion!" is about all you say on the subject.

The only thing that puts Mia above Zihark is the Chapter 9 6-turn and the fact that she's one of two units that can pull it off.

Ilyana, Soren?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Espinosa

[Narga_Rocks]

Ilyana, Soren?

Can I assume it requires a 7 move unit somehow?

[Snowy_One]

A bit delayed due to my having gone out, but Tormod's main advantage over Ilyana and Soren is his extra move, but does that really matter? The main point to using the sages seems to be the siege tomes, but those have a huge range on their own. Soren and Ilyana can effectively hit up to something like 15-17 squares (I forget the exact amount of move sages have post-promo) away in just one movement. Does Tormod's extra 2 move really add all THAT much? Especially since it seems that one of the key points to using Muarim is smiting which could add the extra two movement to Soren/Ilyana/Calill for at least one turn.

[Espinosa]

Can I assume it requires a 7 move unit somehow?

Well, does it? I don't think that's the case.

The contribution spoken of here is a 6-turn clear, lowest with Marcia recruited. Titania can rout the south early enough, but Ike has to stay close to the starting position, waiting until Marcia arrives, which slows down the completion. The turns Marcia costs to be recruited, she returns to you manyfold during the run; hell, in chapter 12 alone.

The problem is basically the following: assuming Ike stands at the point of Marcia's movement range and she self-recruits on turn 4, Ike gets picked up by Marcia, who full-moves towards the seize point, where Oscar takes Ike and full-moves further. Now, someone needs to drop Ike on the ground so that he can seize on turn 6. If Boyd is unpromoted (the usual situation for chapter 9 in most plays), the only one left to do it is Titania who is probably in that exact area as she was routing the Myrm/Soldier reinforcements over there anyway. Now, if Ike is dropped on turn 5 by Titania, he is approximately 12 squares away from seize (maybe 11, not entirely sure but it's either one or the other). If he full-moves on last turn, he's still 6 squares away.

What this means is Ike needs six shoves. That's quite a lot, but you can shove him on the turn he's dropped, and then on turn 6 when he's refreshed, ready to move but still not too far away from your shovers. Taking weight into account, you have two people capable of shoving Ike - Boyd and Rhys. He's still 2 squares short, needing another shover. What do? Olwen dumped most of his hard-earned BEXP into Mia, giving her just enough weight to be the third shover, letting Ike seize on turn 6. This is the contribution we've been mentioning.

However, promoted Soren and Ilyana also have the right weight to do the same. Ilyana probably isn't promoting before chapter 9 even if you rigged her levels furiously in chapter 8 (not sure how early you can recruit her; I never push myself much in that chapter and wait until the end after Titania's routed the enemies in the western portion of the map), but Soren exists for a long enough time to do so.

The other way is promoting Boyd, which lets Titania pick up Ike from Oscar's embrace, move forward and let Warrior Boyd drop Ikey. Needless to say, Warrior Boyd rapes the game quite a bit when promoted this early, quite a bit more than Mia with her swords and lack of 2-range.

Which gets me to the next point, should we give credit to Mia for cutting a turn with two Shoves? Why aren't we giving credit to Rhys for the same exact two turn-saving Shoves he does without asking for a single point of BEXP? Maybe we ought to punish Mia for it, as promoting her just for two Shoves is an expensive investment that deprives us of an early Warrior Boyd or an early Sage Soren (who is sure to remain in use with siege tomes and boss chip and Muarim-slaying and what not). I think Olwen's also digging Mia for her giving Ilyana +15 hit, +1 attack, +1 defence (namely the former for more reliable sieging) in the very specific kind of playthrough he continues to argue from.

[Chiki]

We can debate anything as long as we have played the game and have good understanding of it. If you feel that Oscar and Kieran trained together is better than just one of them being in use (or Jill), then I might not have anything to say on the matter if you're not willing to put any effort into supporting that idea.

so it doesn't help when "but that's my opinion!" is about all you say on the subject.

But I don't have to put effort into supporting this particular idea. The term you're using is "convenience." Let's go ahead and make that even simpler: your claim is that it's easier to use Jill than Oscar and Kieran together, am I right?

But if I told you, for the sake of argument (which I am doing right now--I agree that Jill is "easier" to use than Oscar and Kieran for the same reasons you do) that I think it's easier to use Oscar and Kieran than it is to use Jill, you would have no option but to agree to disagree. There is absolutely no counterargument you can make towards my personal preference, which is purely subjective. When we use the term "ease," it isn't based on numbers nor solid hard facts. It's based on your personal opinion--which is just as valid as mine. The reason I keep repeating "that's my opinion!" like a parrot is because two differing subjective opinions are equally valid. The Pope's views and Hitler's views are equally valid because neither are dictated by the laws of nature.

You can use the counterargument that it's easier because it's one less unit (which is a number) but it's your opinion that the process of using one unit is easier than using two units. I can easily envision an opposite scenario in which a person simply thinks that it isn't easier.

But I can't envision a world without the laws of physics, without sodium having only one outer electron, etc. This is the entire point I'm trying to get across.

You seem to assume that there's one particular way of playing the game right, or are indifferent to other possibilities

No, I've mentioned Boyd instead of Mia and I've also mentioned Hawk King's attempt from chapter 1 to 12. I think you should recognize those as well.

Ilyana, Soren?

It's almost impossible to train Soren up to par in Chapter 8 because he has shit for avoid and he's fragile. Mia, on the other hand, can actually become decently durable with plenty of bexp.

And Soren is really tough to train on hard mode even before bexp.

Why aren't we giving credit to Rhys for the same exact two turn-saving Shoves he does without asking for a single point of BEXP?

Never said we shouldn't.

Maybe we ought to punish Mia for it, as promoting her just for two Shoves is an expensive investment that deprives us of an early Warrior Boyd or an early Sage Soren (who is sure to remain in use with siege tomes and boss chip and Muarim-slaying and what not).

Warrior Boyd is just as valuable as Swordmaster Mia; neither cut any turns after 9.

in the very specific kind of playthrough he continues to argue from.

I think you're starting to get moody and it's clouding your judgment. Let me show you a post that you made which I replied to:

http://serenesforest...dpost&p=2247673

I mention that Boyd/Soren can just as easily replace Mia/Ilyana.

All I am advocating is that Mia should be just slightly above Zihark. That's all.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Olwen

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be said that this tier list is not based upon the so-called "perfect" playthrough before people catch on. If this were actually a minimum turn count list it would look very different. This list analyzes unit effects on low turns with high reliability combined with a non-specific team, high tier units are more likely to be used, but will not necessarily be in play. It seems to me that under a wide variety of conditions Tormod's +2 Mov over the other Sages would be relevant, getting in range to heal or to be in regular combat, or get into siege tome range is made easier by Celerity. Considering how mounted units are often lauded for their mobility and armors often getting reductions because their mobility is poor, ignoring Tormod's movement lead over the other Sages seems illogical.

If Mia can only cut one turn before Zihark joins that seems like a very situational advantage, given the number of resources required. Zihark's supports and Adept usually give him more reliable durability and offense, so that's something to consider. Not saying Mia> Zihark isn't possible, but the fact that the BEXP dump would stop us from using the BEXP on other units seems like a relevant factor to me.

[aku chi]

"But Zihark deserves the same amount of BExp as Mia!"

No, he doesn't. CommunistFE can be found in ROM Hacks. Here, we give units resources if they can use them well. And giving Mia ~350 BExp in Chapter 8 is worth a lot more than the same ~350 BExp on Zihark in Chapter 12. Namely, Mia's performance has a noticable rise and Zihark's doesn't. Throw in the fact that Mia is now closer to promotion than Zihark and any argument about Zihark being better gets tossed into a dumpster.

You're assuming your conclusion. Mia gets Bexp and Zihark doesn't because Mia is better. Therefore, Mia is better than Zihark. If you're so confident that Mia is more valuable than Zihark, compare them when they both receive the same resources. (See this post and surrounding conversation for evidence of the rigor of this approach.)

No, he isn't. You just said yourself that you use the bexp in chapter 8 in chapter 8. When chapter 12 comes around, all's square.

It's only "all square" if Mia's contributions in chapters 7-11 are exactly offset by the resoures she received in those chapters. In the case of Mia receiving all of our pre-C9 Bexp in order to make possible a silly C9 LTC clear, this is obviously not the case. That massive Bexp dump is much more valuable than Mia's potential contributions in chapters 7-11 (especially since Boyd can take the same Bexp and be almost strictly more valuable). In the case of your modest 350 Bexp bump in C8, it is debatable whether that is offset by Mia's potential contributions.

There is literally no reason to consider giving Zihark in chapter 12 equal bexp to what Mia got in chapter 8, because Mia actually did something with it in chapters 8 to 11.

Of course there is, I explained it in the linked post above. It enables us to engage in a rigorous comparison - even if it's unrealistic.

Or to look at this another way, the opportunity cost of giving Mia bexp in chapter 8 is that others in chapter 8 can't use it. But do they need it? Interceptor scorched all the enemies in chapter 8 while still getting Mia to level 10 or something with bexp. In other words, they don't need it. So the op cost of giving Mia bexp in chapter 8 is rather low ...

You have this exactly backwards. The opportunity cost of giving Mia Bexp in C8 includes saving the Bexp for later use (on Marcia and/or Jill, for instance). The opportunities for alloting pre-C8 Bexp is a superset of the opportunities for alloting C11 Bexp. Therefore, the opportunity cost of pre-C8 Bexp cannot be lower than the opportunity cost of C11 Bexp.

I'm glad you brought up the economic concept of present value/future value, but I'm baffled how you think it aids your claim that Bexp given to Mia in C8 is less costly than Bexp given to Zihark in C12. C7 Bexp has a higher value than C11 Bexp because it can be used for the exact same purposes of C11 Bexp - and more! That means that the opportunity cost of giving Mia 350 Bexp in C8 is greater than the opporunity cost of giving Zihark 350 Bexp in C12. Instead of considering costs, you inverted the analysis to try to prove that Mia must receive greater benefits from pre-C8 Bexp than Zihark, because she has more time to make use of the investment. This is very likely true, but would be revealed more intuitively in a Mia vs. Zihark comparison where each unit received Mia's optimal resource bundle. Contributions to completing the game are seen. Costs are not seen. We must do our diligence to ensure that we are properly accounting for resource costs. Mia can make contributions before Zihark joins, and those should absolutely be factored into a comparison between the two units, but it is absurd to claim that Mia can take Bexp before Zihark joins without paying an opportunity cost.

Which gets me to the next point, should we give credit to Mia for cutting a turn with two Shoves? Why aren't we giving credit to Rhys for the same exact two turn-saving Shoves he does without asking for a single point of BEXP? Maybe we ought to punish Mia for it, as promoting her just for two Shoves is an expensive investment that deprives us of an early Warrior Boyd or an early Sage Soren (who is sure to remain in use with siege tomes and boss chip and Muarim-slaying and what not). I think Olwen's also digging Mia for her giving Ilyana +15 hit, +1 attack, +1 defence (namely the former for more reliable sieging) in the very specific kind of playthrough he continues to argue from.

I agree that this particular potential contribution of Mia's is very silly. Mia shoves somebody twice en route to an efficient clear. That isn't worth a whole lot. It also reveals the absurdity of the "turns saved" metric. Who is "saving" this vaunted turn in C9? Mia? Well, Rhys and Boyd are just as important in their ability to shove Ike. Ike himself is pretty important for recruiting Marcia and having some movement of his own. Oscar is pretty darn important - he carries Ike part of the way. So does Marcia. Or how about Titania, who carries Ike furthest and clears >50% of the enemies in the map to boot. I guess they all share credit for this vaunted saved turn. But their contributions aren't all equal, of course. Titania is doing most of the work to clear the chapter. Rhys, Boyd, and Mia are just shoving a couple times.

I also want to mention that this particular contribution of Mia's is irrelevant if we choose not to recruit Marcia.

[Chiki]

It also reveals the absurdity of the "turns saved" metric

We're just asking Mia to be above Zihark. That isn't much to ask so I don't see the big deal.

This list analyzes unit effects on low turns with high reliability combined with a non-specific team, high tier units are more likely to be used, but will not necessarily be in play.

Using Mia for 2 shoves is perfectly reliable. It has nothing with just low turning--it's efficiency too.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Olwen

[Espinosa]

Using Mia for 2 shoves is perfectly reliable. It has nothing with just low turning--it's efficiency too.

It's not about reliability. Let me emphasise the parts in his post in bold that you didn't stop your attention on:

This list analyzes unit effects on low turns with high reliability combined with a non-specific team, high tier units are more likely to be used, but will not necessarily be in play.

Without Oscar, a 6-turn is impossible. Without Titania, the party might spend extra time in the area near the boss (those Myrm reinforcements are real fast man). With Oscar and Titania both in play, a promoted Mia still doesn't shave off a turn if Rhys and Boyd aren't there to Shove. And aku chi already mentioned the scenario where Marcia isn't recruited, presumably because we want a run without Marcia (that can still be efficient within its arbitrary restraints) or because she's being drafted by another player.

A shove is "reliable" enough, sure, it won't miss, but there's not a whole lot of occasions where Mia shoving Ike is of great benefit (chapter 16 could be another such occasion but a crapload of units at that point can shove unpromoted Ike, just go ahead and pick one), and only one extremely specific occasion (with an extremely high opportunity cost) where it matters.

[Refa]

It seems a bit counterintuitive to not assume that all of your Chapter 9 units are in play when you can deploy all of them. You can make an argument for not using them, like say Oscar, but I'm sure he can do his Rescue thing either way.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Refa

[Chiki]

There's no reason not to use Titania or Oscar though, as both are ranked very highly. Boyd is very likely to be in play, and so is Rhys because he's a good healer. You don't even have that many units in Chapter 9 to choose from.

The only reason I want Mia slightly above Zihark is because of her potential and nothing more.

[Espinosa]

There's no reason not to use Titania or Oscar though, as both are ranked very highly. Boyd is very likely to be in play, and so is Rhys because he's a good healer. You don't even have that many units in Chapter 9 to choose from.

The only reason I want Mia slightly above Zihark is because of her potential and nothing more.

In draft context, it is unlikely that all of Oscar, Boyd and Rhys (I think Titania drafted for everyone is the standard though) will be in play, so it's still a very specific situation. I'm pretty sure a perfectly unrestricted run can field every single unit at one's disposal though, there's no competition for any slot.

As for Mia's "potential" it's either two Shoves after chewing on most of your BEXP that's available before chapter 9 OR saving the Talisman village; two mutually exclusive contributions in one single chapter where Mia can do something of note before Zihark and does some of the same things more reliably and with less of an investment.

[Narga_Rocks]

You have this exactly backwards. The opportunity cost of giving Mia Bexp in C8 includes saving the Bexp for later use (on Marcia and/or Jill, for instance). The opportunities for alloting pre-C8 Bexp is a superset of the opportunities for alloting C11 Bexp. Therefore, the opportunity cost of pre-C8 Bexp cannot be lower than the opportunity cost of C11 Bexp.

I think you mess up oppportunity cost. Remember, best alternative forgone? It doesn't include saving it for later use unless you think Marcia isn't getting enough bexp from what you earn in chapters 8 to 11 (since she mainly needs it for chapter 12, maybe unless you are going for ridiculous turns that Cynthia isn't allowing anyway). Now, if you think saving it for Marcia instead of using 350 on Mia is the "best alternative forgone", then fine. Do you? Also, what do you mean "cannot be lower than the opportunity cost of c11 bexp?" That bexp can go to Mia or Zihark. If you dump 400 bexp on Zihark in chapter 12 (not 11, btw, as Zihark is still an enemy during the base, yes?), then you can dump 400 on Mia instead. The op. cost is whatever it is. The cost for c8 could be lower or higher or whatever depending on what you think the best use of it in chapter 8 is.

I'm glad you brought up the economic concept of present value/future value, but I'm baffled how you think it aids your claim that Bexp given to Mia in C8 is less costly than Bexp given to Zihark in C12. C7 Bexp has a higher value than C11 Bexp because it can be used for the exact same purposes of C11 Bexp - and more! That means that the opportunity cost of giving Mia 350 Bexp in C8 is greater than the opporunity cost of giving Zihark 350 Bexp in C12.

That's the most insane thing I've heard in a while. Higher in c8 than in c12? You are saying that it is a lower op cost to save 350 bexp from chapter 8 all the way to 12, and not use it until then, than it is to just give it to Mia? Best alternative forgone. The op. cost is the SAME. Whatever you do with that 350 bexp in chapter 8, whether you give it to Mia or save it for Zihark, the best alternative is whatever the best alternative is. It doesn't change. How does nobody get something this basic? Let's say, for example, that the best alternative is to save that 350 bexp until chapter 10 base when you can give it to Marcia. The op cost for that 350 bexp to go on Mia or Zihark is the same. The difference between them is that Mia's profit is much much higher because she actually does something with it for 4 chapters.

Instead of considering costs, you inverted the analysis to try to prove that Mia must receive greater benefits from pre-C8 Bexp than Zihark, because she has more time to make use of the investment. This is very likely true, but would be revealed more intuitively in a Mia vs. Zihark comparison where each unit received Mia's optimal resource bundle.

So I'll bring up Mia and Geoffrey again. Do you think if Mia gets 1000 bexp during her life until chapter 25, that Geoffrey is entitled to 1000 bexp before you can make any comparison to Mia? I find that nuts. This "each unit gets optimal resource bundle" thing is stupid. That's all I'm trying to say.

Contributions to completing the game are seen. Costs are not seen. We must do our diligence to ensure that we are properly accounting for resource costs. Mia can make contributions before Zihark joins, and those should absolutely be factored into a comparison between the two units, but it is absurd to claim that Mia can take Bexp before Zihark joins without paying an opportunity cost.

Where did I ever say it's free? Granted I suggested the cost is negligible, but for those that weren't happy with it I proposed a compromise where Zihark gets a portion of Mia's bexp but not the whole thing because of the cost of saving that bexp for chapters.

And If you think I inverted PV/FV, then you need to re-read what I said. Or I'll try to reword it. Mia is the bank. You'll notice that Zihark's 500 bexp doesn't earn you interest or anything. Mia earns you interest because she uses it. This would be a completely different story if you could earn interest on bexp held from chapter to chapter. Which would be awesome, btw. I don't get how you think this is inverting when Mia is the 500 now, and Zihark is the 500 in 4 chapters. We know from PV/FV that money now is better than money in the future, and so giving Mia 500 bexp is worth the investment because she gives us 500(1+i)⁴ value for that 500, whereas Zihark gives us 500 value for that 500. The cost is the same exact number, 500. To use it early it gives bigger gains. That much is also intuitive from the playing of the game. "Mia can make contributions before Zihark joins, and those should absolutely be factored into a comparison between the two units..." So we are agreed. Now, if I have indeed inverted the concept, why don't you show me how you think it should be done properly so I can tell you how you are wrong?

[aku chi]

Now, if I have indeed inverted the concept, why don't you show me how you think it should be done properly so I can tell you how you are wrong?

Have you stopped beating your wife?

I think you mess up oppportunity cost. Remember, best alternative forgone? It doesn't include saving it for later use unless you think Marcia isn't getting enough bexp from what you earn in chapters 8 to 11 (since she mainly needs it for chapter 12, maybe unless you are going for ridiculous turns that Cynthia isn't allowing anyway). Now, if you think saving it for Marcia instead of using 350 on Mia is the "best alternative forgone", then fine. Do you? Also, what do you mean "cannot be lower than the opportunity cost of c11 bexp?" That bexp can go to Mia or Zihark. If you dump 400 bexp on Zihark in chapter 12 (not 11, btw, as Zihark is still an enemy during the base, yes?), then you can dump 400 on Mia instead. The op. cost is whatever it is. The cost for c8 could be lower or higher or whatever depending on what you think the best use of it in chapter 8 is.

If we're comparing the opportunity cost of Mia (or anyone) getting 350 Bexp in C8 and Zihark (or anyone) getting 350 Bexp in C12, the former cannot be less than the latter. Mia's Bexp must come from Chapters 1-7. Zihark's can come from chapters 1-7 or it can come from chapters 8, 9, 10, or 11. Bexp from these later chapters is strictly less valable than Bexp from chapters 1-7 because C1-7 Bexp can be used in all of the ways C11 Bexp can be used - and more.

Concerning the opportunity cost of 350 Bexp in C8, I don't know what it precisely is. It might be giving more to Boyd or Oscar, it might be saving it to give to Marcia. It might even be giving it to Jill. Whatever the case may be, the opportunity cost of 350 Bexp in C12 must be lower, because we now have more total Bexp to give to their most valuable recipients. We've already given the Bexp to, for instance, Boyd or Oscar or Marcia, or saved it for Jill. So the next best use might be giving it to Kieran or giving more to Marcia/Jill, or saving it for Astrid/Makalov.

That's the most insane thing I've heard in a while. Higher in c8 than in c12? You are saying that it is a lower op cost to save 350 bexp from chapter 8 all the way to 12, and not use it until then, than it is to just give it to Mia? Best alternative forgone. The op. cost is the SAME. Whatever you do with that 350 bexp in chapter 8, whether you give it to Mia or save it for Zihark, the best alternative is whatever the best alternative is. It doesn't change.

I agree. But if we give Zihark 350 Bexp in C12, it can be from the less valuable C11 and/or C10 Bexp cache. Capiche?

So I'll bring up Mia and Geoffrey again. Do you think if Mia gets 1000 bexp during her life until chapter 25, that Geoffrey is entitled to 1000 bexp before you can make any comparison to Mia? I find that nuts. This "each unit gets optimal resource bundle" thing is stupid. That's all I'm trying to say.

Both units getting one or the other's optimal resource bundle is a fine approach when comparing units with similar availability and similar (enough) optimal resource bundles. It is a poor approach when comparing units with very different availability and/or very different optimal resource bundles. (I would not recommend it in a Mia vs. Geoffrey comparison. I would in a Mia vs. Zihark comparison.) No matter the comparison approach, Mia must be penalized for the resources she receives in excess of Geoffrey. Likewise with Zihark, if you so choose to compare them with different resource bundles.

Where did I ever say it's free? Granted I suggested the cost is negligible, but for those that weren't happy with it I proposed a compromise where Zihark gets a portion of Mia's bexp but not the whole thing because of the cost of saving that bexp for chapters.

You contradict yourself: "The op. cost is the SAME. Whatever you do with that 350 bexp in chapter 8, whether you give it to Mia or save it for Zihark, the best alternative is whatever the best alternative is. It doesn't change." But, as I explained above, an amount of Bexp given later is necessarily less valuable than the same amount given earlier.

And If you think I inverted PV/FV, then you need to re-read what I said. Or I'll try to reword it. Mia is the bank. You'll notice that Zihark's 500 bexp doesn't earn you interest or anything. Mia earns you interest because she uses it. This would be a completely different story if you could earn interest on bexp held from chapter to chapter. Which would be awesome, btw. I don't get how you think this is inverting when Mia is the 500 now, and Zihark is the 500 in 4 chapters. We know from PV/FV that money now is better than money in the future, and so giving Mia 500 bexp is worth the investment because she gives us 500(1+i)⁴ value for that 500, whereas Zihark gives us 500 value for that 500. The cost is the same exact number, 500. To use it early it gives bigger gains. That much is also intuitive from the playing of the game. "Mia can make contributions before Zihark joins, and those should absolutely be factored into a comparison between the two units..." So we are agreed.

All else being equal, Bexp used earlier is more valuable than Bexp used later. Don't you see: that also increases the opportunity cost of using Bexp earlier! C1-7 Bexp can make Boyd or Oscar more valuable in chapters 8-11 (and more). C11 Bexp cannot. C1-7 Bexp can be used in all of the ways C11 Bexp can be used, but the reverse is not true. Therefore, C1-7 Bexp is more valuable than C11 Bexp - it has a higher opportunity cost. If Mia takes 350 of the former and Zihark takes 350 of the latter, we pay a higher opportunity cost in the former scenario. (But, I repeat myself.)

But all else is not equal when we consider the value of Bexp when used. The recipient of the Bexp determines the value of the investment. Would you agree that it is more valuable to give Rolf X Bexp in C9 instead of saving that X Bexp to give to Marcia in C10? Of course not - that would be absurd. But that conclusion would be warranted from your naive application of PV/FV. If I'm understanding your application correctly, Bexp given earlier provides a greater investment than Bexp given later by virtue of it being given earlier. What a unit can actually do with the Bexp is not considered in your analysis.

[Life]

You're assuming your conclusion. Mia gets Bexp and Zihark doesn't because Mia is better. Therefore, Mia is better than Zihark. If you're so confident that Mia is more valuable than Zihark, compare them when they both receive the same resources. (See this post and surrounding conversation for evidence of the rigor of this approach.)

Why should they get equal resources? The BExp on Mia in Chapter 8 goes a lot farther both in the short and long run than it does sitting in the convoy until Zihark shows up. In the now, Mia's stock rises in Chapters 8/9 due to having an immediate impact on her performance in forced chapters. And in the future, she has similar stats to Zihark but is much closer to promotion than he is, making her the more attractive option.

Even with equal resources, the only thing Zihark can do is close the level gap and take a very slight statistical advantage on Mia. Mia's existance until Zihark's appearence is still worth more.

[Narga_Rocks]

If we're comparing the opportunity cost of Mia (or anyone) getting 350 Bexp in C8 and Zihark (or anyone) getting 350 Bexp in C12, the former cannot be less than the latter. Mia's Bexp must come from Chapters 1-7. Zihark's can come from chapters 1-7 or it can come from chapters 8, 9, 10, or 11. Bexp from these later chapters is strictly less valable than Bexp from chapters 1-7 because C1-7 Bexp can be used in all of the ways C11 Bexp can be used - and more.

Um, dude, Mia can get bexp from chapters 8, 9, 10, 11, in addition to what she got from 1-7. If you want to give Zihark "Mia's optimal resource bundle", by definition it needs to be c1-7 bexp because that is where Mia's 350 came from.

Concerning the opportunity cost of 350 Bexp in C8, I don't know what it precisely is. It might be giving more to Boyd or Oscar, it might be saving it to give to Marcia. It might even be giving it to Jill. Whatever the case may be, the opportunity cost of 350 Bexp in C12 must be lower, because we now have more total Bexp to give to their most valuable recipients. We've already given the Bexp to, for instance, Boyd or Oscar or Marcia, or saved it for Jill. So the next best use might be giving it to Kieran or giving more to Marcia/Jill, or saving it for Astrid/Makalov.

Again, Mia can get that bexp, too.

I agree. But if we give Zihark 350 Bexp in C12, it can be from the less valuable C11 and/or C10 Bexp cache. Capiche?

But it can't be from c11 or c12, because Mia can take it, too. If you give Zihark 300 bexp in chapter 12, and you didn't save it from chapter 7, then giving 300 bexp to Zihark means you should give 300 more bexp to Mia.

Both units getting one or the other's optimal resource bundle is a fine approach when comparing units with similar availability and similar (enough) optimal resource bundles. It is a poor approach when comparing units with very different availability and/or very different optimal resource bundles. (I would not recommend it in a Mia vs. Geoffrey comparison. I would in a Mia vs. Zihark comparison.) No matter the comparison approach, Mia must be penalized for the resources she receives in excess of Geoffrey. Likewise with Zihark, if you so choose to compare them with different resource bundles.

If they were to show up in the exact same chapter, I wouldn't complain about giving them the same bexp and compare them then. But they don't. Mia appears earlier. Whatever you choose to do with the chapter 1 to 7 bexp is a completely separate problem from what you do with the chapter 8, 9, 10, or 11 bexp. You can't give Zihark chapter 11 bexp if you aren't willing to give Mia the same deal.

You contradict yourself: "The op. cost is the SAME. Whatever you do with that 350 bexp in chapter 8, whether you give it to Mia or save it for Zihark, the best alternative is whatever the best alternative is. It doesn't change." But, as I explained above, an amount of Bexp given later is necessarily less valuable than the same amount given earlier.

Then on that we differ. The op cost is the same because it is the same bexp. You either save it for Zihark or spend it, therefore it is the same cost. You can't give Zihark new bexp without considering giving new bexp to Mia. This is the problem with not saving bexp for a guy. New bexp, more for all your units. Not just the new ones.

All else being equal, Bexp used earlier is more valuable than Bexp used later. Don't you see: that also increases the opportunity cost of using Bexp earlier! C1-7 Bexp can make Boyd or Oscar more valuable in chapters 8-11 (and more). C11 Bexp cannot. C1-7 Bexp can be used in all of the ways C11 Bexp can be used, but the reverse is not true. Therefore, C1-7 Bexp is more valuable than C11 Bexp - it has a higher opportunity cost. If Mia takes 350 of the former and Zihark takes 350 of the latter, we pay a higher opportunity cost in the former scenario. (But, I repeat myself.)

But all else is not equal when we consider the value of Bexp when used. The recipient of the Bexp determines the value of the investment. Would you agree that it is more valuable to give Rolf X Bexp in C9 instead of saving that X Bexp to give to Marcia in C10? Of course not - that would be absurd. But that conclusion would be warranted from your naive application of PV/FV. If I'm understanding your application correctly, Bexp given earlier provides a greater investment than Bexp given later by virtue of it being given earlier. What a unit can actually do with the Bexp is not considered in your analysis.

I'm pretty sure I'd rather give Marcia 900 bexp than give Rolf 1000 bexp. Also, the interest rate is dependant on the unit. The interest rate isn't the same for each unit. Remember, the interest rate is defined by the return on investment. When you do PV/FV you go with inflation at a minimum or you can try to use what you'd earn at the bank, but this is FE. Each unit gives a different return. Rolf gives little on the investment, therefore the interest rate is small. Heck, we'd be comparing more like 990 bexp for Marcia compared to 1000 bexp for Rolf. I don't see how that's wrong. Rolf gives us something, and therefore giving him a small edge in bexp value for that 1 chapter makes sense. Except your example was bad and you should feel bad. You can't give Mist or Rolf bexp in chapter 9. They appear after you click start. A better comparison would be Rolf vs Nephenee or something. Neph gets bexp in chapter 11 base, Rolf in chapter 10 base. But would I rather give Neph 900 bexp or Rolf 1000? Obviously the former. So basically, Rolf gives us value for chapter 10, however small, and that needs to be accounted for somehow. I believe the simplest way is to give the later unit less bexp in the comparison.

[aku chi]

We seem to be doing a very bad job communicating with one another. Let's try to identify our initial point of diagreement.

Do you agree or disagree with the following:

300 Bexp earned completing chapter 7 is more valuable than 300 Bexp earned completing chapter 11.

[Narga_Rocks]

We seem to be doing a very bad job communicating with one another. Let's try to identify our initial point of diagreement.

Do you agree or disagree with the following:

300 Bexp earned completing chapter 7 is more valuable than 300 Bexp earned completing chapter 11.

I don't believe you can compare them so easily. Your point is that you can spend bexp earned in chapters 1 to 7 in anywhere from chapter 8 until final, and so it is worth more than bexp that can be spent from chapter 12 until final since there are more options. Or I think that's what you are saying. But that reasoning is flawed because the cost is defined by best alternative forgone and not the number of alternatives. If the best way to use 300 bexp is to save it until chapter 12 or later, then they have equal cost because you are saying the best use is the exact same, hence same cost.

If the best use of chapter 1-7 bexp is to spend it in chapters 8 to 11, then I can see how an argument could be made that it is more valuable. After all, you can't use chapter 11 bexp in chapter 11 base. Or 8, 9, 10. And putting 300 bexp on Marcia in chapter 10 clearly has higher returns than 300 bexp on Marcia in chapter 12 simply due to Marcia having more time to use it. But what if we aren't putting it on the same unit? 300 bexp on Marcia in chapter 10 or 300 bexp on Jill in chapter 13? You can't put that bexp on Jill any earlier, so you earned 300 bexp in chapter 9 and put it on Marcia, and earned 300 bexp in chapter 12 and put it on Jill. Now, let us further assume that those are the second best uses of that 300 bexp. So now the value of the chapter 9 bexp is 300 on Marcia, and the value of the chapter 12 bexp is 300 on Jill, provided we instead use the 600 bexp the best way possible. Now let us assume that you aren't giving that 600 bexp to Marcia and Jill because you want to place that bexp on the best possible place. Are we then to assume that the 300 bexp on Marcia is more valuable than the 300 bexp on Jill simply because Marcia came earlier? Of course not. We have to determine if 300 extra bexp for Marcia for chapters 10 to F is worth more or less than 300 bexp on Jill for chapters 13 to F. So although it is possible for chapter 7 bexp to be more valuable than chapter 11 bexp, it is also possible for this not to be the case.