FE9 Tier list v3

[General Banzai]

It does. Boyd and Neph are the only units that can get rid of almost all the C25 boss area by their own. Neph with Wrath and Vantage and 1-2 range>>>>that map. And she has nice offense. Also, seconding Mia moving up.

one map

[Hawk King]

^ Thats one map more than half the cast though.

The Sages definitely need to go above her though. And the Cats are all mixed up.

Upper-Mid

Mordicai

Lethe

Muarim

Mist

Callil

Tormod

Soren

Mid

Ilyana

Nephenee

Stefan

Mia

Zihark

Rhys

Volke

^ This looks good to me.

[Ema Skye]

^ Thats one map more than half the cast though.

The Sages definitely need to go above her though. And the Cats are all mixed up.

Upper-Mid

Mordicai

Lethe

Muarim

Mist

Callil

Tormod

Soren

Mid

Ilyana

Nephenee

Stefan

Mia

Zihark

Rhys

Volke

^ This looks good to me.

Yeah, I like this too. Maybe move Mordecai into high for utility reasons.

Also thoughts on Ike going down? Mono-sword user in the first few maps is cool, but he's your weakest unit due to swords sucking. Steel Sword lets him compete with Oscar and Boyd for offense, but he's weighed down by it until Lv.15, which happens after Iron forges exist. Mid-game (Ch9-17) sees a rise of lance users, hurting the mono-sword wielding lord. He promotes in Ch18, but at this point, we've got ~5 paladins (Titania, Oscar, Kieran, Astrid and Makalov, possibly Mist as well) and ~3 fliers (Marcia, Jill and Tanith), which really does limit the amount of BEXP Ike can get.

I guess not costing a deployment slot is cool, but I really don't get what he's doing over top of Astrid, Makalov and especially Tanith. Heck, I even think Mordecai > Ike makes sense due to smiting utility. Sure Astrid and Makalov join underlevelled, but they get out of their ruts quick due to horses (and Astrid has Paragon), and they pretty much are Titania the Third. when they promote (if Oscar/Kieran is Titania Jr.).

[Snowy_One]

Ike has solid stats all around, a great unique skill, an awesome sword, and is easily the fastest way to take down Ashnard. Part of the reason why the LK's are not on this list (besides tiering their one chapter of use being an immense pain) is that, on HM, it is entirely possible for Ike to beat Ashnard before they can even get close to him, rendering them useless for the one thing they're actually around for.

Course, this oddly means that Rolf > Laguz Kings if he can so much as slip in a pot-shot that makes some enemy that couldn't be 1RKO or 1HKO'ed before able.

[Ema Skye]

Ike has solid stats all around,

Yeah, when he promotes.

a great unique skill

When he promotes.

an awesome sword

Only in the last two chapters of the game

and is easily the fastest way to take down Ashnard

Being the fastest way at killing Ashnard isn't much of a title when your competitors are the weak dragons and the laguz kings who only exist for half a map.

Like it's something but I don't think it's enough.

[Narga_Rocks]

Being the fastest way at killing Ashnard isn't much of a title when your competitors are the weak dragons and the laguz kings who only exist for half a map.

Like it's something but I don't think it's enough.

Unfortunately, a lot of people see Wrath (remove Aether for Endgame) on Ike as the way to kill Ashnard because turns are valued so much, and if Mia shaving a turn from a shove can count as even so little as a tiebreak, it seems that saving a bundle of turns while Ashnard is running around slaughtering your units (or you spend turns boxing him up) is quite important to them. In other words, if he saves like 5 turns (for the sake of argument), compared to most units that you can't really prove save any turns (except like Titania and bexp'd Marcia) it seems like quite a lot.

Of course, there's the Edward/BK factor. But as I've pointed out on that list, different lists can have different rules. For argument's sake, though, if the other options to kill Ashnard suck so bad that Ike saves a massive number of turns that would auto-top him on the list, which he might considering your other option is literally only Ena (no Nasir due to saving 2 to 4 turns in 27-E by running asap) with a pile of stat-boosters until a king reaches the Berserk form, then the Edward factor rears it's head and we do some handwaving to justify lowering Ike.

[Snowy_One]

Even ignoring that, the simple fact is that EG Ike isn't that bad, especially since most of your team will simply be too weak for *major* turncount reduction until mid-game. Really, Ike's *only* 'problems' are that he's not mounted and he can't use axes. If those things were true for him, he might, very well, be the top unit in the game.

Edit:

edit: Why are Lethe and Muarim above Mordicai? Lethe's combat is never needed and turns to crap way too quickly. Muarim is in the same boat. Mordy's Smites however are useful all the way to the endgame.

While I won't argue Muarim (he joins late) Lethe is really strong when she joins and doesn't have to deal with the transform gauge issues that Mordi does. Yes, later in the game she's inferior, but that is true of ALL Laguz besides the kings, largely due to issues with transformation and/or banding. Lethe lacks power, Mordi lacks speed, Muarim is iffy both ways, and none of them upgrade from what is basically steel weapons.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Snowy_One

[-Cynthia-]

Not sure I see Morde>Lethe+Muarim, mainly because the latter two can Shove most mounted units anyway and one of them can Smite after Chapter 20. Mordecai's transform time is pretty late and his Demi Band combat isn't very good.

Ike is a weird case, ordinarily he wouldn't be a very good unit but his forced status means he ends up clearing a large portion of maps sometimes because we have to ferry him anyway (Chapter 28 comes to mind). Also yeah, Ashnard isn't necessarily forced utility because we can do it with Ena- but using Ike saves us turns and resources. He's also got quite a bit of earlygame utility which is a thing.

I moved the Sages into Upper Mid and Nephenee down to Mid for now.

[Hawk King]

While Lethe's combat is much better than Mordy's it just doesn't matter. She will spend most turns shoving and all of the kills and combat should be going to long term units like Marcia, Oscar, Kieran, Jill, and Boyd, who all have better combat than Lethe plus 1-2 range. Lethe realistically wont level up more than 1 time in a playthrough, and her combat will never improve. Then Muarim shows up 5-6 maps later, completely eclipsing her in every way.

Sure Muarim's combat is pretty good, but again, he will spend most turns shoving. He can fight if he wants but he just isn't needed to. And like Lethe he wont be gaining any LVs. There is just no long term benefits in developing them as fighters. Despite being capable of fighting they will just be shoving every turn.

Which comes to Mordy. He has Smite from the get-go. And he will be using Smite at least once on every single map he exists for. His Smiting saves turns, Lethe and Muarim's combat will NEVER save a turn.

Ike should go down, at least below Tanith.

[Espinosa]

Lethe will sometimes miss ORKOs on Soldiers in her join chapter. Just saying.

Muarim is a mean fighter... in 0% growths! Nothing special in Paladin rushes otherwise though (no Canto, forges or 2-range), but a low-maintenance midgame unit nevertheless. Could give up the Smite scroll for Ranulf in certain contexts (when a second Smiter makes no difference).

I think Stefan is too low, just above Mia and Zihark really? Two generally useless units? His offence is really damn good. Arguing Mia > Zihark still sounds like arguing Wolt > Klein to me. Sure, the latter shows up late enough to miss out on all the earlygame opportunities to help the team advance but he's quite a bit better when both are around.

[Hawk King]

Mia VS Zihark is basically a wash. Mia can potentially cut a turn from Chp 9 so thats why she gets the edge over Z.

Stefan is Swordlocked and does more damage than necessary. And by the time his damage IS necessary, the mounts, Boyd, and Nephenee will have the stats and better weapons than him (Axes and Lances > Swords). I just dont see anyone that he should go above. Plus he usually goes unrecruited. Honestly, I think Mia should be above Stefan.

I think Illyana should drop down to Mid. There should be a tier split between her and Soren. Soren can do amazing things with Vantage and a Thunder forge.

[PKL]

Is Calill only higher than the other siegers because of no investment needed? Doesn't she have trouble meeting mag benchmarks to get siege KOs on some bosses, unlike say, Soren? Also, I find Zihark is really bad. Idk, at least Mia joins at a point where she's useful.

[Espinosa]

We discussed the chapter 9 thing at length months ago. To put it briefly, even those of us who care about "shaving off turns" found it dubious that Mia plays the key role in that enterprise and how topical the contribution is to most efficiency runs while drawing attention to the large sacrifice of BEXP resources necessary for it.

The chapter 7 contribution is very real on the other hand, as Mia can add in some damage leading to a quicker rout, but she's far from the most useful contributor on that map either.

We have to first assume that Stefan is recruited in order to evaluate him. 'Superfluous' offence means a lower demand in resource consumption (e.g. lack of reliance on forges letting you forge things for characters who need it more) and shortly after he joins he can be given a Sonic Sword which is handy for one-rounding wyverns, countering people at 2-range. Even then, Stefan costs less turns than, say, Jill, a top tier unit. Not needing BEXP in order to ORKO things is quite a rarity.

Don't forget that the tier list is context-flexible meaning we can't assume that every unit available in the game can be deployed. While Stefan can be unnecessary in a full Paladin rush, he starts to matter a lot when you have just one Paladin and Titania for example. In such a context, we previously discovered Tormod is a 'don't use' unit because his added mobility 'has no impact on shaving off turns' while requiring more resources in a shorter period of existence.

[Hawk King]

If Mia does take the Bexp dump, She will then be just as good if not better than Stefan by the time he joins. Plus she can then do other things. So it's not like that resourse dump is a waste. It saves that 1 turn and adds more reliability to other future tasks. ie: killing Danomill and Makoya.

I think Soren is the best of the Sages but there were several pages of arguments to get them how they are now so I dont feel like trying to change that atm.

[General Banzai]

do complicated shove trains really make playing this game more efficient

seems to me they just make this game more of a headache

[BBM]

The thing is, unless I'm mistaken, that 1-turn in C9 also requires Boyd to shove him, and then Titania to also clear half the enemies there, and Oscar to do stuff, and a bunch of other shit. Saying she "saves a turn" implies she does so by herself, which is incorrect. And I might be wrong, but can't you also promote Boyd instead of Mia and achieve the same effect? It's a very very specific strategy and also quite conditional.

[Espinosa]

All of Boyd, Mia and Rhys have to be shoving in that strat (on the next to last and last turns), and Mia is the only one who's too light unless she promotes.

Promoting Boyd just means you can extend the rescue chain, letting Boyd takedrop Ike on the penultimate turn. Unpromoted, he's heavy enough to shove but not carry.

If Mia does take the Bexp dump, She will then be just as good if not better than Stefan by the time he joins. Plus she can then do other things. So it's not like that resourse dump is a waste. It saves that 1 turn and adds more reliability to other future tasks. ie: killing Danomill and Makoya.

The 'if' should be emphasised here as we're talking about a very generous present. A 20/4 Mia still loses 4 points of strength to Stefan, all while locked to the weakest weapon type.

Remember that 'efficiency' outside of LTC (which most people discussing here don't want to play at all) also means 'more for less', which is one of the reasons characters like FE6 Marcus define what has been as efficient. Mia pretty much represents the opposite - giving you less by taking more.

[Hawk King]

Now dont forget about bands. Thats almost a full point of STR Mia can get.

Question: Is beating the game with 5000 Bexp left in the bank considered more efficient than beating it with 500 left in the bank? And statboosters, is it more efficient to have a bunch of statboosters sitting in the convoy unused? And I guess money and items too.

If person A beats the game in 140 turns with 0 Bexp and 5000g leftover and person B beats the game in 147 turns with 4000 Bexp and 80,000g leftover, who was more efficient?

[Espinosa]

She averages 14.8 without bands so you can say I took that into account. Luck will be her sole advantage over Stefan.

Let's distinguish between efficient playthroughs and efficient units first of all. Units are essentially like resources themselves which you are free to use in any way you like. Units contributing to an efficient run will have varying degrees of efficiency (a rather different kind you can say).

A minimum turns run, even with acceptable reliability, will most likely exclude the usage of Jill, Makalov, Astrid, Tormod, all of them ranking very highly on this list (Jill being a Top even). Not giving Mia a huge BEXP dump (I'll go ahead and add we aren't obliged to give it to Boyd in the other scenario either) means it could be saved to have a better Oscar, properly train Nephenee, promote Astrid, Tormod or Makalov, all very appealing alternatives. Hell, you could have two very strong fliers wandering around those midgame maps instead of one. The BEXP dump has a weighty cost and the alternative to not giving it to Mia isn't hoarding it (even if we absolutely must shave off that one turn, why not give it to Boyd instead).

Another old argument expressed against this dubious (at best I guess) form of utility is that in a context where some units are missing, e.g. special challenge or restricted runs, drafts, where Titania is not fighting, Marcia cannot touch Ike due to being undrafted, Rhys and Boyd cannot shove, Mia's shove has absolutely no value for the positive contribution to turn count. The situational usage disappears completely.

[-Cynthia-]

Man why does everyone want to talk about Mia on this tier list all the time...

This tier list doesn't assume a specific team, so Paladin rush every map is not assumed. In cases where we're not just using all 9 Mov units, Lethe/Muarim's combat advantage over Morde is substantial.

It's not about saving BEXP in the convoy, it's about being able to use it other places. Using Calill instead of another sage means all that BEXP can go somewhere else. She also has weapon ranks which means she doesn't need Arms Scrolls.

Ilyana's performance at siege toming is close enough to Soren's that I don't think there should be a tier difference. She can be more accurate than him with some supports in play, so that's an advantage in her favor.

[Hawk King]

If we go by fixed mode for average stats, Mia starts with 70 STR points. Mia is promoting on Chp 9, so in the next 6 chapters before Stefan joins Mia can very easily get 4 LVs if not more with the Mackoya kill, a few ravens in Chp 11 and 12 and other various enemies. So LV 20/5 Mia with STR/DEF band will beat Stefan by 9LCK and 1DEF tie in MAG and RES and lose by 4HP, 3STR, 6SKL, 1SPD. And this is ignoring equiped weapons modifiers.

This is very similar, and with more LVs it only gets better in Mia's favor as Stefan begins to cap ram SKL.

My questions were meant to be completely independent of the early Mia/Boyd scenario.

edit: Soren has a huge advantage at normal combat, and does the most damage with siege tomes. He can potentially ORKO Shisharim with a Meteor tome. And allows for a 2 turn clear of Chp 25 with Vantage and a thunder forge.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Hawk King

[Snowy_One]

Here is the thing about Mia. Mia has a ton of options and many of the arguments as to why Zihark is better don't hold up since Mia can preform with similar things, except she can do so better. Rhys having trouble staying in range? How is Muarim staying in range of Zihark since he is either fighting or shoving, both of which require him to be next to other units while Rhys can use physic staves (not to mention Muarim's combat eventually becomes poor but heals are always nice)? Zihark has better avoid? Mia has vantage which works better. Mia can function with the SS (give her the magic band/dusts and maybe the other) while Zihark simply *can't* get the required MAG to make it work meaning Mia can actually have a potential 1-2 range game that Zihark is shut out from. Want to focus on turn-counts? Mia has at least one unique turn she can shave that Zihark cannot.

Really, the only things Zihark has on Mia is that, if you put *no* effort into either he's *slightly* better, but at that point you probably need to ask why you're deploying either in the first place.

As for Mia vs. Stefan, I'd say Mia is better since Stefan's only real advantage is his joining stats. Otherwise Mia flat-out curbs him once again in skills (Astra is a detriment no matter how you look at it) and flexibility. Not to mention unique turn-shaves.

And as for why people like talking about Mia... My theory is because, it's, the ultimate split of tiering philosophy. Any one of the three can be argued in any order above or below depending on what you value in a tier list. To someone favoring the paladin rush Stefan's low cost and strong start outweighs that he's easily the weakest near the endgame and has no game before 16 (he's not fighting in 15 unless you're REALLY dallying). People who value flexibility and sheer potency will favor Mia. Zihark serves as a middle ground, especially for Muarim-lovers.

[XeKr]

Man why does everyone want to talk about Mia on this tier list all the time...

Probably because there's this awkward situation where Mia was considered amazing by casual players and pretty popular in general, but was then considered terrible by 'vets' (Devdan > Mia was a memorable thing at one time), and now considered good/decent again b/c of a resource dump and maybe sometimes sorta partial credit for a single turn shave? >_>

Anyways, I agree with the opinion that Mia vs. Zihark is mostly a wash when they're both around and so Mia's potential earlier on puts her barely a bit over.

Not totally sure on Stefan. For simplicity I'd drop him merely for recruitment costs, but if this list doesn't want to go that way...I suppose I'd side with Stefan, if his stat advantage is actually meaningful against FE9 enemies (is it overkill?). That combined with the resources that could be used elsewhere might put him over the other SMs.

Edited October 12, 2013 by XeKr

[Hawk King]

Oh snowy, Mia doesnt even need extra MAG cause the only things worth using the SS on are dracos. And Astra is not always a detriment, please stop saying that.

[-Cynthia-]

This list does not include recruitment costs.

I'm really not sure about this Vantage!Soren thing. At 20/8 he gets 2HKO'd by 25 Atk which a lot of the C25 enemies reach (some of them have like 30+ Atk). He has 24% chance to proc Adept and ~20% crit? That seems unreliable.