FE9 Tier list v3

[Chiki]

On what basis do you give value to bexp?

[Narga_Rocks]

On what basis do you give value to bexp?

op. cost. Everything has an opportunity cost, because if you give unit A some bexp/skill/uncommon weapon, it could've gone to unit B, C, or D. So the "value" of bexp would then be the cost of not giving it to the best option, say B. Unless you give that bexp to B, because then the value would be giving it to second best, say C.

[aku chi]

On what basis do you give value to bexp?

In this tier list: how valuable it is to completing the game efficiently. Imagine two efficient playthroughs. Suppose that in the first playthrough, we have access to some chunk of Bexp, but in the second playthrough we do not have access to that same chunk. The value of that Bexp chunk is however much the first playthrough is more efficient than the second. Opportunity cost is a related concept. While value as defined previously results from giving the Bexp chunk to the most optimal recipient(s), opportunity cost is a way to evaluate the value that we lose by giving the Bexp to certain recipients. The opportunity cost is the value we would have received had the Bexp chunk gone to its next best alternative(s).

I don't believe you can compare them so easily. Your point is that you can spend bexp earned in chapters 1 to 7 in anywhere from chapter 8 until final, and so it is worth more than bexp that can be spent from chapter 12 until final since there are more options. Or I think that's what you are saying. But that reasoning is flawed because the cost is defined by best alternative forgone and not the number of alternatives. If the best way to use 300 bexp is to save it until chapter 12 or later, then they have equal cost because you are saying the best use is the exact same, hence same cost.

I was insufficiently precise: the value of 300 C7 Bexp is at least as great as the value of 300 C11 Bexp. In almost all cases, the value will be greater.

If the best use of chapter 1-7 bexp is to spend it in chapters 8 to 11, then I can see how an argument could be made that it is more valuable. After all, you can't use chapter 11 bexp in chapter 11 base. Or 8, 9, 10. And putting 300 bexp on Marcia in chapter 10 clearly has higher returns than 300 bexp on Marcia in chapter 12 simply due to Marcia having more time to use it. But what if we aren't putting it on the same unit? 300 bexp on Marcia in chapter 10 or 300 bexp on Jill in chapter 13? You can't put that bexp on Jill any earlier, so you earned 300 bexp in chapter 9 and put it on Marcia, and earned 300 bexp in chapter 12 and put it on Jill. Now, let us further assume that those are the second best uses of that 300 bexp. So now the value of the chapter 9 bexp is 300 on Marcia, and the value of the chapter 12 bexp is 300 on Jill, provided we instead use the 600 bexp the best way possible. Now let us assume that you aren't giving that 600 bexp to Marcia and Jill because you want to place that bexp on the best possible place. Are we then to assume that the 300 bexp on Marcia is more valuable than the 300 bexp on Jill simply because Marcia came earlier? Of course not. We have to determine if 300 extra bexp for Marcia for chapters 10 to F is worth more or less than 300 bexp on Jill for chapters 13 to F. So although it is possible for chapter 7 bexp to be more valuable than chapter 11 bexp, it is also possible for this not to be the case.

I believe you have erred here. I will try to demostrate this using your example.

Suppose that the 300 C12 Bexp did not exist. The only (relevant) Bexp we have is the 300 we have in C10. If we are playing efficiently, we will use this Bexp in the way that helps us complete the game most efficiently (it's optimal use). This might be to give it immediately to Marcia. It might be to give it to Jill in C13. Assuming those are the two best options, the second best option is the opportunity cost of that 300 Bexp.

Now let's add back in the 300 C12 Bexp. Suppose, as you have, that the optimal way to distribute Bexp is to give 300 to Marcia in C10 and give 300 to Jill in C12. Let's consider the opportunity cost of those distributions. When considering the opportunity cost for giving Marcia 300 Bexp in C10, we cannot ignore the fact that we will receive another 300 Bexp in C12. Whether or not Marcia gets the C9 Bexp, that 300 C12 Bexp will exist. As per our assumption, the best use of the C12 Bexp is to give it to Jill. The opportunity cost of the C9 Bexp then, is giving 300 more Bexp to Jill, or giving it to some other unit. Likewise, when giving Jill the 300 Bexp from C12, we've already given Marcia 300 Bexp. The opportunity cost of the C12 Bexp is giving 300 more Bexp to Marcia, or giving it to some other unit. Under no circumstance can the opportunity cost of C12 Bexp be higher than the opportunity cost of C9 Bexp.

It's the marginal costs that matter when considering the opportunity cost of Bexp. I've made this mistake myself, in the past.

[Narga_Rocks]

I believe you have erred here. I will try to demostrate this using your example.

Suppose that the 300 C12 Bexp did not exist. The only (relevant) Bexp we have is the 300 we have in C10. If we are playing efficiently, we will use this Bexp in the way that helps us complete the game most efficiently (it's optimal use). This might be to give it immediately to Marcia. It might be to give it to Jill in C13. Assuming those are the two best options, the second best option is the opportunity cost of that 300 Bexp.

Now let's add back in the 300 C12 Bexp. Suppose, as you have, that the optimal way to distribute Bexp is to give 300 to Marcia in C10 and give 300 to Jill in C12. Let's consider the opportunity cost of those distributions. When considering the opportunity cost for giving Marcia 300 Bexp in C10, we cannot ignore the fact that we will receive another 300 Bexp in C12. Whether or not Marcia gets the C9 Bexp, that 300 C12 Bexp will exist. As per our assumption, the best use of the C12 Bexp is to give it to Jill. The opportunity cost of the C9 Bexp then, is giving 300 more Bexp to Jill, or giving it to some other unit. Likewise, when giving Jill the 300 Bexp from C12, we've already given Marcia 300 Bexp. The opportunity cost of the C12 Bexp is giving 300 more Bexp to Marcia, or giving it to some other unit. Under no circumstance can the opportunity cost of C12 Bexp be higher than the opportunity cost of C9 Bexp.

It's the marginal costs that matter when considering the opportunity cost of Bexp. I've made this mistake myself, in the past.

First off let me just say we are assuming Marcia and/or Jill are already getting a crapton of bexp. The assumption here is that an extra 300 bexp is still good on them, just not as good as placing 300 bexp elsewhere, specifically the best place for it. Consider them to be second best. At least, that's what I was going for.

But let's say that Marcia and Jill have been given none, to go with your example. And to keep things simple, you get precisely 300 bexp in chapter 9 and 300 bexp in chapter 12. You don't get any more. Now let's say that they are indeed the best outlets for it. Now, spending the second set of 300 is best used on Jill, for the sake of argument, even though we spent 300 bexp on Marcia already. Now let's look at giving any or all of this bexp to Boyd. Why is it impossible for the 300 on Jill to have higher value than the 300 on Marcia? Say the 300 on Marcia was mainly to improve those 3 chapters that Marcia is available and Jill is not, and Marcia doesn't do all that much good the rest of the game. But Jill takes that 300 bexp and does stuff for the entire game and gets lots and lots of use out of it. How is it then impossible for the second 300 bexp to have higher op cost?

Say we give all 600 bexp to Boyd. The op cost of the first 300 is Marcia, the op cost of the second 300 is Jill. Who is to say that the 300 on Jill isn't worth more than the 300 on Marcia?

[Chiki]

op. cost. Everything has an opportunity cost, because if you give unit A some bexp/skill/uncommon weapon, it could've gone to unit B, C, or D. So the "value" of bexp would then be the cost of not giving it to the best option, say B. Unless you give that bexp to B, because then the value would be giving it to second best, say C.

Sorry, I was wondering why bexp in Chapter 7 was more valuable than bexp in Chapter 11. Why isn't bexp just bexp? Why is one dump more valuable than the other?

[aku chi]

Sorry, I was wondering why bexp in Chapter 7 was more valuable than bexp in Chapter 11. Why isn't bexp just bexp? Why is one dump more valuable than the other?

If you're uninterested in reading the rest of the (very straight-forward) arguments, appeal to your intuition: is Bexp earned in C28 as valuable as Bexp earned in C1? Would you be indifferent between receiving all of the game's Bexp after completing chapter 28 and receiving it all before chapter 8?

Say we give all 600 bexp to Boyd. The op cost of the first 300 is Marcia, the op cost of the second 300 is Jill. Who is to say that the 300 on Jill isn't worth more than the 300 on Marcia?

Assumptions:

• There are only two (unconditional) sources of Bexp: 300 Bexp awarded after C9 and 300 Bexp awarded after C12.
  
• Jill getting 300 Bexp in C13 is more valuable than Marcia getting 300 Bexp in C10 is more valuable than Marcia getting 300 Bexp in C13 is more valuable than any other allocation of 300 Bexp, including giving Marcia or Jill both sets of 300 Bexp.
  

There are two ways to evaluate the opportunity costs of Boyd's two Bexp dumps. The first approach is to consider them in isolation and assume that the other Bexp goes to its optimal recipient. The second approach is to assume that Boyd will receive both sets of Bexp.

First approach - in isolation:

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C10: We otherwise assume optimal allocation, so Jill will receive the C12 Bexp and giving the 300 Bexp in C10 to Marcia is the opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C13: We otherwise assume optimal allocation. As per our assumption, Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the most valuable assignment of 300 Bexp, so we assume that we reserved the C9 Bexp for this purpose. It is not possible to give Marcia the C12 Bexp in C10, so the opportunity cost is equal to giving the 300 Bexp in C13 to Marcia.

Second approach - in conjunction:

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C10: Boyd is assumed to receive the C12 Bexp. As per our assumption, Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the most valuable assignment of 300 Bexp, so reserving the C9 Bexp for this purpose is the opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C13: Boyd is assumed to already have received the C9 Bexp. Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the opportunity cost.

In all cases, the opportunity cost for the C9 Bexp is at least as great as the opportunity cost for the C12 Bexp.

[Narga_Rocks]

Assumptions:

• There are only two (unconditional) sources of Bexp: 300 Bexp awarded after C9 and 300 Bexp awarded after C12.
  
• Jill getting 300 Bexp in C13 is more valuable than Marcia getting 300 Bexp in C10 is more valuable than Marcia getting 300 Bexp in C13 is more valuable than any other allocation of 300 Bexp, including giving Marcia or Jill both sets of 300 Bexp.
  

If we call your assumptions A > B > C > D, I'm not sure where C > D is coming from, but it probably doesn't make a difference. Technically, did I ever state that C > D? In fact, given what I said about Marcia's prospects the rest of the game (the theoretical Marcia, not the real one), it seems that D > C. But anyway, A > B > D is the main assumption here. A > B > D gives relevance to the example. Anyway, with this in mind I'll take a look.

There are two ways to evaluate the opportunity costs of Boyd's two Bexp dumps. The first approach is to consider them in isolation and assume that the other Bexp goes to its optimal recipient. The second approach is to assume that Boyd will receive both sets of Bexp.

First approach - in isolation:

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C10: We otherwise assume optimal allocation, so Jill will receive the C12 Bexp and giving the 300 Bexp in C10 to Marcia is the opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C13: We otherwise assume optimal allocation. As per our assumption, Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the most valuable assignment of 300 Bexp, so we assume that we reserved the C9 Bexp for this purpose. It is not possible to give Marcia the C12 Bexp in C10, so the opportunity cost is equal to giving the 300 Bexp in C13 to Marcia.

Well, the op cost of the second isn't necessarily giving it to Marcia, but again it doesn't make much difference.

Second approach - in conjunction:

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C10: Boyd is assumed to receive the C12 Bexp. As per our assumption, Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the most valuable assignment of 300 Bexp, so reserving the C9 Bexp for this purpose is the opportunity cost.

Opportunity cost for giving Boyd 300 Bexp in C13: Boyd is assumed to already have received the C9 Bexp. Jill receiving 300 Bexp in C13 is the opportunity cost.

In all cases, the opportunity cost for the C9 Bexp is at least as great as the opportunity cost for the C12 Bexp.

So let's say I'm willing to accept, for the moment, that bexp spent earlier is at least as costly as bexp spent later. But if I'm not smart enough to find the mistake, you can prove to me that 0 = 1 as well, so I say only for the moment.

How does this mean that Zihark is entitled to exactly the same amount of bexp as Mia, or more even if you want to "equate" the cost? In theory, if we can calculate the revenue and calculate the opportunity cost of giving Mia bexp in chapter 8, we don't need to give Zihark any bexp in chapter 12 and we can still make the comparison properly. Or you can give Zihark equivalent bexp and try to determine what the best use of that bexp is in chapter 12 and then subtract the op cost from his gain. Personally, I believe that neither of those calculations are easy. Maybe they aren't impossible, but certainly they are not easy. As such, it just seems simpler to reduce how much Zihark gets as a way of making it a wash. Again, how much to reduce may seem complicated, but you can just pick a range. Basically, even you'll accept that chances are there is enough bexp in a non-superltc game that Mia can make a positive economic profit from receiving some bexp in chapter 8. Like, to level 10 or something. But who is to say that giving Zihark, or even giving more to Mia, is even a net zero? Then how do you give Zihark the 500 bexp and look at their stats and say "Well, Zihark wins in stats, but he loses overall because that 500 bexp could've gone to Marcia to take out Seeker?" It just seems more difficult than my way. That is, both my original way and the compromise that never worked with anyone. The original way being, that 500 bexp was burned before Zihark showed up and it was a net gain (well, assuming it actually was a net gain. If it wasn't a net gain then this entire discussion is academic), and so we might as well consider the distribution of bexp based on their current situation and not some outdated idea of fairness. Heck, even if giving Mia that bexp and her actions from chapter 7 to 11 are a complete neutral, there's still no reason to then give Zihark bexp without giving some to Mia. She paid off her "op cost debt" by not being a worse choice for that 500 bexp than any other option.

And yes, this works even if the op cost is higher for the chapter 8 base distribution than the cost in chapter 12. With 4 extra chapters, it is easier to pay off 350 bexp in chapter 8 and 150 bexp (capping levels and whatnot) over the next 3. All a unit has to do is not be a net negative taking that bexp and they shouldn't have to be in some kind of bexp debt to a unit that we compare it with. And then when the new unit rolls around, they are looked at equally for the sake of more bexp. A unit like Rolf is obviously an inferior choice to using 700 bexp on Marcia or even Mist, the two units that appear in the base for chapter 10 with him, so when you compare Rolf to Jill there is no reason for Rolf to have an extra 700 bexp in the comparison. Now, if you are using him then it is possible for Rolf to have been given 100 or so bexp because everyone else got enough that giving Rolf 100 bexp was worth more than giving some other unit an extra 100 bexp, and then to compare to Jill there is no reason for Jill to get 100 bexp for free. You look at Rolf with 100 bexp and Jill with no bexp, then allocate bexp on each of them according to what is best on Jill, then make the comparison. Yes, Rolf has an extra 100 bexp over Jill in this comparison, whatever amount each of them is given in chapter 13, but that only makes sense because we only gave Rolf that 100 bexp in the first place because it was a net positive, or at least a net zero.

[aku chi]

So let's say I'm willing to accept, for the moment, that bexp spent earlier is at least as costly as bexp spent later. But if I'm not smart enough to find the mistake, you can prove to me that 0 = 1 as well, so I say only for the moment.

I'm not attempting anything duplicitous. Your intuition should confirm that (non-perishable) goods are more valuable (or, at least, no less valuable) when received earlier. Going through your simple example and determining opportunity costs was not trivial; I made a couple mistakes myself before correcting them. This rather highlights your point that the full and faithful way to compare Mia and Zihark (each receive their optimal resource bundle and each pay the opportunity cost associated with it) is error prone and more work than is needed. So let's discuss some alternatives that can demonstrate Mia > Zihark that are just as accurate.

One approach is the one I've already mentioned that I'm quite fond of. If Mia is better when given Zihark's optimal resource bundle than Zihark is when given Zihark's optimal resource bundle, then Mia is more valuable than Zihark. This approach can be tweaked to make agreed-upon divergances from Zihark's optimal resource bundle for Mia. For instance, if we can suppose that 300 Bexp in C9 is worth no more than 400 Bexp in C12, we might suppose that Mia gets the former instead of the latter.

I also like the approach you brought up: that if it can be shown/agreed that the cost of giving Mia X Bexp in C9 is no greater than the benefit she receives from it in chapters 9-11 alone, we can assume she receives the Bexp, ignore the costs of it and any contributions Mia makes before C12. Then, we compare Mia (+X Bexp and assumed Cexp) and Zihark's contributions from C12 on. It might not be possible to find such an amount X, so we can add another value Y, such that:

The opportunity cost of giving Mia X Bexp in C9 is no greater than the benefit in chapters 9-11 that Mia receives from X Bexp plus the opportunity cost of giving Zihark Y Bexp in C12.

Then, we assume that Mia gets X Bexp in C9, Zihark gets Y Bexp in C12 - and compare their contributions in C12 and beyond.

These comparison approaches are no less accurate than a full and faithful anaylsis, but it may be easier to reach a consensus conclusion than quibbling about different opportunity costs (which I certainly don't enjoy; I'd rather discuss how different units contribute to an efficient playthrough).

[Toothache]

There is something missing from all this - where does combat exp fit into all this? All of the focus of the discussion currently seems to be focused on BEXP, but that doesn't exist in isolation. How much combat is each unit going so see, and roughly how many levels of CEXP are we offering on average? You can't just say 'assumed cexp', you'll need to really define it for each chapter. This will mean testing, and retesting of strategies and seeing where each units are being used and therefore how much CEXP on average they are getting.

Less semantics, and more playing, methinks. Let's see some empirical evidence to back up all this wordy jargon we've seen lately

[Snowy_One]

How can you quantify that, especially on random mode? Only way to even start would be to get an identical team every time, but due to the RNG and that not every team will have the same units, you'll end up with teams at different levels each PT. Even on fixed, you won't always have enemies attack the exact same target if they have the option to attack multiple ones, not to mention random hits, misses, criticals.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Snowy_One

[-Cynthia-]

Looking back over the topic, moved Ranulf over Largo for mount shoving powers mainly.

[Snowy_One]

Can we also get Mia > Zihark? It seems pretty solidly set at this point.

Also, maybe Mordi could do with a drop? He starts the game with 11 Speed which multiple units can match/outstrip easily even at that point, won't be able to use the band until 16, and will end the game with only 19/20 SPD even when transformed. Sure, he's strong in the early-game... when he's transformed. But it takes 5 turns for that to even HAPPEN. So for half/more than half a chapter Nephenee, despite being 'weaker' than him, will be far more useful simply because she's capable of fighting. Endgame he isn't too stand-outish either. He either takes the penalty from the band or only has 40 MT (Mia can match this and people scream bloody murder about her all the time) and only has 19/20 speed. This means he's potentially losing to such speedsters as Rhys and Ilyana. Even Brom can match his speed with the Knight Ward (a unique item, like the demi-band) but isn't restricted to 1-range combat or having to wait 5 turns if he somehow doesn't get the KW. I'm not saying Brom > Mordi, but Mordi should probably come down a bit, at least to mid.

[-Cynthia-]

Can we also get Mia > Zihark? It seems pretty solidly set at this point.

Also, maybe Mordi could do with a drop? He starts the game with 11 Speed which multiple units can match/outstrip easily even at that point, won't be able to use the band until 16, and will end the game with only 19/20 SPD even when transformed. Sure, he's strong in the early-game... when he's transformed. But it takes 5 turns for that to even HAPPEN. So for half/more than half a chapter Nephenee, despite being 'weaker' than him, will be far more useful simply because she's capable of fighting. Endgame he isn't too stand-outish either. He either takes the penalty from the band or only has 40 MT (Mia can match this and people scream bloody murder about her all the time) and only has 19/20 speed. This means he's potentially losing to such speedsters as Rhys and Ilyana. Even Brom can match his speed with the Knight Ward (a unique item, like the demi-band) but isn't restricted to 1-range combat or having to wait 5 turns if he somehow doesn't get the KW. I'm not saying Brom > Mordi, but Mordi should probably come down a bit, at least to mid.

I really hope you're not proposing Mia>Zihark because of the ability to early promote her so she can shove Ike in Chapter 9? given a lot of other factors fall into place. That would go under an overly specific strategy. Other than that, I don't see many advantages for Mia as Zihark has better durability and better offense under most circumstances. His Strength is higher and doesn't require use of questionable units like Ilyana and particularly Rhys to be in range. Adept on Zihark also has no opportunity cost as opposed to Mia taking Wrath, which comes later in the game anyway. She has some minor utility in chapters 7 and 9 I guess.

Conversely, Mordecai's innate Smiting is useful in any team, as being able to move mounts or foot units twice as far as normal Shovers is quite useful for efficiency.

[Snowy_One]

I really hope you're not proposing Mia>Zihark because of the ability to early promote her so she can shove Ike in Chapter 9? given a lot of other factors fall into place. That would go under an overly specific strategy. Other than that, I don't see many advantages for Mia as Zihark has better durability and better offense under most circumstances. His Strength is higher and doesn't require use of questionable units like Ilyana and particularly Rhys to be in range. Adept on Zihark also has no opportunity cost as opposed to Mia taking Wrath, which comes later in the game anyway. She has some minor utility in chapters 7 and 9 I guess.

Conversely, Mordecai's innate Smiting is useful in any team, as being able to move mounts or foot units twice as far as normal Shovers is quite useful for efficiency.

Zihark's 'better durability' is off-set by Mia's vantage. Even with no special modifications that will negate about 20% or so of melee attackers. While Zihark's AVO can apply to 2-range weapons, Mia's vantage can be augmented by weapons. However, Mia's vantage can be further augmented by skills while Zihark's can only be augmented by one skill (vantage itself). Further, unlike Zihark, Mia has strategic flexibility. She can function with wrath, adept, and guard all very well (anyone is good with Resolve, so it's not really a point in her favor), she is one of the few good Gamble-users, she can take the Sonic Sword (you can argue Mist is better with it, sure, but there is no way to deny that Mia curbstomps Zihark with it), and she has several chapters of utility on him including at least one 'efficiency' thing Zihark simply does not have. Zihark's main advantage, meanwhile, is his Muarim support and 'lack' of resources, but the Muarim support is at least semi-iffy (only one band) while Rhys can be useful in any team with a physic staff, even ones that don't give a damn about turncounts. That aside, Zihark's main advantage is durability which, short of making either do a fighting marathon, simply won't matter THAT much. Zihark may take 20% less attacks, but Mia kills 20% of attackers before they can attack.

Also, Mordi's smite isn't always useful by any means. It's 1 additional movement over a *normal* smite and 2 additional movement total to one unit for one turn. In order for it to matter a unit needs to attack a target that is out of it's range by 2. That isn't likely, especially later on with mounted units, siege tomes, and refresh existing. About the only *real* use would be setting up a Reyson refresh and even that would be situational since Reyson is light untransformed and far from unshovable transformed. Compare that to actually being able to fight and smite is like offering a thimble of water to a dehydrated man and refusing to give him the full tap.

[-Cynthia-]

Zihark's 'better durability' is off-set by Mia's vantage. Even with no special modifications that will negate about 20% or so of melee attackers. While Zihark's AVO can apply to 2-range weapons, Mia's vantage can be augmented by weapons. However, Mia's vantage can be further augmented by skills while Zihark's can only be augmented by one skill (vantage itself). Further, unlike Zihark, Mia has strategic flexibility. She can function with wrath, adept, and guard all very well (anyone is good with Resolve, so it's not really a point in her favor), she is one of the few good Gamble-users, she can take the Sonic Sword (you can argue Mist is better with it, sure, but there is no way to deny that Mia curbstomps Zihark with it), and she has several chapters of utility on him including at least one 'efficiency' thing Zihark simply does not have. Zihark's main advantage, meanwhile, is his Muarim support and 'lack' of resources, but the Muarim support is at least semi-iffy (only one band) while Rhys can be useful in any team with a physic staff, even ones that don't give a damn about turncounts. That aside, Zihark's main advantage is durability which, short of making either do a fighting marathon, simply won't matter THAT much. Zihark may take 20% less attacks, but Mia kills 20% of attackers before they can attack.

Vantage's only use is providing effective durability for Mia- it doesn't improve her offense. It doesn't help Mia unless the attacker is at 1 range and she manages to critical on the attack, and the attacker is 3HKOd by Mia. That's a very specific set of requirements, whereas Zihark's avoid applies regardless of range or offensive parameters.

"Strategic flexibility" has no inherent value. Mia is a poor Sonic Sword user due to her low Magic. Mist, Tanith, and even Ike are better options. It seems odd to claim that Mia has strategic flexibility when Zihark does not regardless- we can combine Adept with other skills as well. Adept is the more valuable skill overall because it is more likely that Mia/Zihark will not 2HKO an enemy then be at significant chances of death.

If we don't care about turncounts at all, then the small combat differences between Mia and Zihark are irrelevant. Rhys is unlikely to be used on a permanent basis and if he is used he will unlikely to be staying 3 squares by Mia. Muarim also may not stay within range of Zihark, but Zihark's primary advantage is that he has a reasonable Str lead (~2) at equal levels which makes his offense better.

Any unit being 2 squares closer to the boss or the Seize point can be highly valuable on those chapters in efficiency (and this is an efficiency list). We have many combat units and several potential Shovers, but Mordecai is the best natural Shover in the game. He's below the best combat units as is.

[General Banzai]

oh shit this thread got bumped too? someone done let the kraken out

question: what's neph doing in upper mid

anyone care to explain how an underleveled joiner with an atrocious base weapon rank without a mount or any particular mobility qualities who winds up as a mediocre fighter with only wrath to set her apart from the horde of average units in this game is so high?

[Elieson]

I guess wrath is just that valuable?

And, are Mia's contributions pre-Zihark worth considering in this situation? Under typical circumstances, I'd rate Mia higher due to being so similar to Zihark stat-wise, but around longer and thereby contributing more over the long term

[General Banzai]

also why is mist above rhys at all, let alone a whole tier above him

rhys has like 5 chapters on mist, joins higher leveled, etc

does the fact that mist eventually gets a horse really matter, considering how by the time that happens you have more than enough physic staves to propel you to the end of the game?

[-Cynthia-]

Nephenee's weapon rank isn't much of an issue because most units want to be using forged Iron weapons at her jointime anyway. Forged steel weapons aren't available until later when she probably has D Lances anyway.

She might be somewhat overrated though- I could see an argument that she's not as useful as the siege tome users although her weapon type gives her an advantage over the sword users.

Mist's use is mostly in her ability to Rescue staff things/ reach fliers to Ward staff in certain chapters. Also with enough BEXP and a forge she's not a terrible combatant and mounted combatants are good.

Edited October 11, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Hawk King]

Nephnee is the only other 1-2 range non-armor, foot unit aside from Boyd until Devdan or Largo.

Mist's placement is based solely on her Mount and her good use of the rescue staff.

Mia probably should be above Zihark and Stefan. They are all very similar but Mia has the unique ability to potentially save a turn in Chp 9, which is something Zihark and Stefan can't do. Stefan's combat and high stats might keep him above Mia, but Mia is definitely better than Zihark imo.

So I propose that Mia goes up. Either 1 or 2 places.

[-Cynthia-]

I suppose Mia also might shave a turn off Chapter 7- her combat isn't very good here but it is a rout map and she's forced. I'll move her up. Want to hear more on Nephenee.

Edited October 12, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[General Banzai]

Nephnee is the only other 1-2 range non-armor, foot unit aside from Boyd until Devdan or Largo.

that doesn't mean she's good

like at all

[PKL]

It does. Boyd and Neph are the only units that can get rid of almost all the C25 boss area by their own. Neph with Wrath and Vantage and 1-2 range>>>>that map. And she has nice offense. Also, seconding Mia moving up.

[Hawk King]

Nephenee does a few things but its not that much. She has some bulk so she can shove stuff. Like Ike on Chp 12 to recruit Astrid on turn 1. She supports with Callil, which adds some hit for siege tome use. And she can be useful in Chp 25. She is definitely above the Swordmasters.

I could see her dropping to the top of Mid, and the Sages going above her in Upper-Mid. Maybe leave Illyana in Mid since she is noticeably worse than Soren.

edit: Why are Lethe and Muarim above Mordicai? Lethe's combat is never needed and turns to crap way too quickly. Muarim is in the same boat. Mordy's Smites however are useful all the way to the endgame.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Hawk King

[shadykid]

I love how Nephenee is the 3rd best non-mounted, non-laguz unit according to the tier list right now (arguments for sages moving up aside)

yet that's still so bad