Best/Worst in the series: Round 32

[Jaybee]

Fair enough. But I'm interested in your reasoning.

Ok I think Ike has a very good team, that means other characters are worth training as much as he is that causes them to share from the same experience pool. If Ike is left untouched or has horrible growths he's useless in later chapters.

Micaiah's team is a lot weaker and requires more effort, the three stronger units are not as useful in future parts of the game.

Black Knight is a one part only

Volug and Sothe won't be as good as someone like Haar or Elincia.

Micaiah is easily one of the better options to train. Even if left untouched or have horrible growths she will autogain physic staves and wont have to ever face an enemy to be useful.

And Micaiah is horrendously frail and gets killed if she gets hit by a physical enemy. Ike, on the other hand, becomes a monster, and even at base already kicks ass. Hell, after a few levels he's into doubling range and will proceed to kick ass until promotion, where he gets Ragnell and turns into Sigurd without a horse.

[Candlejack]

Wait, so you're assuming Ike is never used, which is silly since he's a Lord, and he's bad? And a character can't SOMETIMES have horrible growths; Ike's stats are, in fact, some of the most broken spreads in the game; he can really only get SPD screwed but even then, it takes a Speedwing to remedy that. Starts with good bases and with good growths, he's good to go.

Micaiah is... less fortunate. She gets Volug, Nolan, and Zihark. Then... she plays healbot after Part 1. Nothing special.

[RNG Princess]

Being fragile does not disqualify a character from being useful, herons or dancers are a good example their utility is amazing but the player has to be more careful with them. Micaiah is similar, she is better as far range combat or healing. Ike is better at close range combat.

I find more benefits using Micaiah than Ike, due to utility.

[Candlejack]

Being fragile does not disqualify a character from being useful, herons or dancers are a good example their utility is amazing but the player has to be more careful with them. Micaiah is similar, she is better as far range combat or healing. Ike is better at close range combat.

I find more benefits using Micaiah than Ike, due to utility.

Except Micaiah has comparable, if not WORSE, durability than Reyson. lol

And Reyson gets 8 MOV, awesome utility depending on level, and can do more than just one main function.

And Ike has Ragnell, which is 1-2 range, +3 DEF, and 18 MT.

[Narga_Rocks]

Being fragile does not disqualify a character from being useful, herons or dancers are a good example their utility is amazing but the player has to be more careful with them. Micaiah is similar, she is better as far range combat or healing. Ike is better at close range combat.

I find more benefits using Micaiah than Ike, due to utility.

Except Micaiah has comparable, if not WORSE, durability than Reyson. lol

And Reyson gets 8 MOV, awesome utility depending on level, and can do more than just one main function.

And Ike has Ragnell, which is 1-2 range, +3 DEF, and 18 MT.

Ragnell is slightly more broken than that, actually. +5 def.

Also, in PoR it negated non-wrath Criticals.

[Candlejack]

Too bad this is RD Ike we're discussing.

[Narga_Rocks]

Too bad this is RD Ike we're discussing.

PoR thing was a side note.

The +5 def part is what you were supposed to focus on. Making Ragnell slightly more broken than you suggested with your +3 def. I wasn't using Understatement. I really meant "slightly".

The PoR version would be "a lot more" or "noticeably" or "significantly" more broken.

[Candlejack]

Hmm, my bad.

[Narga_Rocks]

Hmm, my bad.

Meh. It's fine.

I still miss that effect, though. At least Ike doesn't really need it in RD.

I also miss some of the "support bonuses" in PoR. Like, Soren being immune to crits when adjacent to Ike.

[RNG Princess]

Being fragile does not disqualify a character from being useful, herons or dancers are a good example their utility is amazing but the player has to be more careful with them. Micaiah is similar, she is better as far range combat or healing. Ike is better at close range combat.

I find more benefits using Micaiah than Ike, due to utility.

Except Micaiah has comparable, if not WORSE, durability than Reyson. lol

And Reyson gets 8 MOV, awesome utility depending on level, and can do more than just one main function.

And Ike has Ragnell, which is 1-2 range, +3 DEF, and 18 MT.

I'm mainly arguing for part 4 in which i'm stuck with horrible lord like characters mainly Sanaki. I'm very sure that if one of them were wounded Micaiah would be better aid. Mic also comes with Thani that makes her helpful up to Sephirans stage.

the most I can do with Ike is shove the wounded ally or rescue but he would be in trouble during enemy phase.

[Jaybee]

Being fragile does not disqualify a character from being useful, herons or dancers are a good example their utility is amazing but the player has to be more careful with them. Micaiah is similar, she is better as far range combat or healing. Ike is better at close range combat.

I find more benefits using Micaiah than Ike, due to utility.

Except Micaiah has comparable, if not WORSE, durability than Reyson. lol

And Reyson gets 8 MOV, awesome utility depending on level, and can do more than just one main function.

And Ike has Ragnell, which is 1-2 range, +3 DEF, and 18 MT.

I'm mainly arguing for part 4 in which i'm stuck with horrible lord like characters mainly Sanaki. I'm very sure that if one of them were wounded Micaiah would be better aid. Mic also comes with Thani that makes her helpful up to Sephirans stage.

the most I can do with Ike is shove the wounded ally or rescue but he would be in trouble during enemy phase.

Or instead Ike could run up ahead and wreck hell during enemy phase. The injured unit should be able to move, unless you had the unit attack an enemy that 2RKOs him/her. Also, Micaiah at most can take out 1 unit per turn. Ike can take out a lot more.

[RNG Princess]

I tried several times doing that with Ike but then Lekain Sephiran Ashera or spirits would either hurt and possibly kill Ike or aim my hurt character and they would surely get killed :(. I dont like many foot units i prefer mounted ones if they are just as good as fighters or close i find more use of them. Magic users are different because they are useful without combat, except Sanaki and unpromoted characters.

[BK-201]

Being fragile does not disqualify a character from being useful, herons or dancers are a good example their utility is amazing but the player has to be more careful with them. Micaiah is similar, she is better as far range combat or healing. Ike is better at close range combat.

I find more benefits using Micaiah than Ike, due to utility.

Except Micaiah has comparable, if not WORSE, durability than Reyson. lol

And Reyson gets 8 MOV, awesome utility depending on level, and can do more than just one main function.

And Ike has Ragnell, which is 1-2 range, +3 DEF, and 18 MT.

I'm mainly arguing for part 4 in which i'm stuck with horrible lord like characters mainly Sanaki. I'm very sure that if one of them were wounded Micaiah would be better aid. Mic also comes with Thani that makes her helpful up to Sephirans stage.

the most I can do with Ike is shove the wounded ally or rescue but he would be in trouble during enemy phase.

Micaiah doesn't come with Thani. You get one from a chest and one from a info conversation. Also Thani does not make her useful for the stage with Sephiran. Ike is infinitely more useful than Micaiah in this stage. Spirits have killer resistance and without a critical or skill activation Micaiah cannot one round. Spirits on +10 resistance tiles disgrace her even further. Ike is a different story. Ike is almost always killing unless the spirits are on a +10 defense tile and even then he is weakening them severly. Micaiah in the end will always have chip damage.

I really can't see Micaiah as the "best" lord.

Her magic and resistance are really her only good stats.

Also she doesn't have a sole claim over the Rexaura. Ike has sole claim over Ragnell.

Also her durability. It is nonexistant until she promotes, and it still sucks. While Ike is a unit that stays good consistantly through the game.

Ike is rarely going to be dying also. Unless he gets sleep staffed and still his durability is awesome. If the opening turns of those chapters is done properly then almost no character should be in danger of dying.

Edited December 12, 2009 by BlackKnight666

[Narga_Rocks]

Micaiah doesn't come with Thani. You get one from a chest and one from a info conversation. Also Thani does not make her useful for the stage with Sephiran. Ike is infinitely more useful than Micaiah in this stage. Spirits have killer resistance and without a critical or skill activation Micaiah cannot one round.

This isn't technically true. Her problem, as always, is speed, not power. 32 AS takes a lot of work to get (either resetting, or lots of bexp with good timing, or speedwings). And even then she only doubles Thunder Spirits. Thunder spirits are pretty easy to ORKO, actually. She only needs 49 mt. If she can get 32 AS, she should easily hit 49 mt. 50 mt on EM or NM due to WTD. She can even pull this off with Purge and standing next to Nasir. There are 8 squares adjacent to Nasir each turn, so don't tell me she can't find a square nobody is using and attack a spirit with Purge. Only 29 AS is needed this way, and with 40 magic and a support she has 52 mt and 34 AS due to Nasir's +5 mag/spd bonuses. Taking down even the wind spirits on EM/NM (takes only 51mt for HM).

Spirits on +10 resistance tiles disgrace her even further.

As for wardwood tiles? There are fewer of them than Cover tiles anyway, and on top of that spirits more frequently land on cover tiles to attack. Also, for thunder spirits, Parity lets her KO.

Ike is a different story. Ike is almost always killing unless the spirits are on a +10 defense tile and even then he is weakening them severly. Micaiah in the end will always have chip damage.

Actually, with 55 mt Ike can even ORKO the fire spirits (best physical durability of the spirits) on cover (+10) tiles. There are some +15 def tiles on this map (4-E-4 only, since 4-E-5 doesn't have any +15 def tiles) so if a fire spirit lands there he can't KO. Funny thing is, though, that he can ORKO the thunder/wind spirits even if they are on a +15 def tile as long as he has a fire/water/dark support like Mia. Fire spirits are left with 6 hp.

Pure Water or Ward Staff is enough to significantly reduce Ike's chance of death here, and he can always stand on Wardwood. So sure, Ike's better here too. Just don't try to sell that stuff about Micaiah here.

Also she doesn't have a sole claim over the Rexaura. Ike has sole claim over Ragnell.

Rhys and Oliver have worse speed than Micaiah and much worse magic, too. Laura is the only real competition, and even she only has 38 magic at most. Also only 31 AS. And she's even more costly to raise than Micaiah herself. I don't think Micaiah has much difficulty getting Rexaura. (Lehran should stick to Ashera Staff so as to not waste other units' turns getting weapons to him.)

[BK-201]

You can just move and trade it and Lehran attacks. No real consequence. I did forget about white tide though. Still Ike > Micaiah. Micaiah is more likely to be promoted at a level lower than 20 due to the lack of chapters in part 3 for the DB. Her average stats never do achieve 32 speed though. The basis to say a character is good can't be that if you reset for level then they will be H4x.

Edited December 12, 2009 by BlackKnight666

[Narga_Rocks]

You can just move and trade it and Lehran attacks. No real consequence. I did forget about white tide though. Still Ike > Micaiah. Micaiah is more likely to be promoted at a level lower than 20 due to the lack of chapters in part 3 for the DB. Her average stats never do achieve 32 speed though. The basis to say a character is good can't be that if you reset for level then they will be H4x.

Oh, it doesn't make her good. I do suggest that in the average playthrough it is actually a good idea to abuse Micaiah a little. Anyone that wants to do a "proper" playthrough, of course, has to rely on bexp rather than resets. On NM, by the way, it isn't exactly bad to bexp her. You have so much and she's got a good claim to it. Small opportunity cost and all. 32 AS isn't so hard for 4-E-4 on NM unless you are one turning 4-E-2 and 2 or less turning 4-E-3. HM, on the other hand, practically requires resets. That's also why I mentioned Nasir. 29 AS and 40 mag isn't so hard for her.

Also, being a forced character it isn't a bad idea to give her paragon in 4-3. That and some bexp in 4-E before she promotes is enough for 20/20 before promotion. It's a little higher opportunity cost to give her this on HM than getting her to 20/20 on NM, but I think it is still not beyond what is reasonable.

So anyway, we are agreed that Ike is better in 4-E. And I hope we are agreed that at least on player phase she can use Nasir for some pretty spectacular bombing, since it only takes 29AS.

Also, if you are giving the tome to Lehran, I'd suggest that Micaiah will still be attacking on turn 1. Then Lehran can attack if you want, though I'd recommend somebody uses the Ashera Staff at the end of turn 1 to recover the health from those that lacked Nihil/Parity and attacked Auras anyway. On turn 2, he can attack again, but Micaiah can still grab it from him afterwards to attack. So again, it's not really a problem. Basically, he doesn't prevent her from using it, he's not even there in 4-E-4 (at least on our side) to take it from her, and her other competition is kinda sad.

[BK-201]

That I completely agree with.

Ike is better throughout the whole game though.

[Narga_Rocks]

That I completely agree with.

Ike is better throughout the whole game though.

Top tier compared to near the top of upper mid.

Yeah, I'd say that's the belief of a large part of this board. I think it is something about never dying and ORKOing almost everything that moves in the game. We seem to like that here.

[Just call me AL]

Is there any chance that Best/Worst couple would be chosen for the next round? (I'm laying down another vote for that one.)

[Life]

Best: Hector

Worst: Roy

Edited December 14, 2009 by Life Admiral

[Original Alear]

Best

: Marth because he is a thief Sigurd

Worst: Leaf

Nominate: Best/worst poll in the best/worst in the FE series.

Worst: Roy.

(Cons: Crap Caps, Late Promtion, Being Locked to swords.

Pros: He does get the SoS...)

Definitely agree with the promotion but his stats are fine (don't know why caps matter since he doesn't hit them, and not hitting caps in FE6 is not a big deal). I'm pretty sure he's about equal to Lance, a great unit, at any given level statwise. It's just that he won't reach them w/out abuse since he promotes so late.

Worst: Leaf, has bad stats, bad growths, he will not be too useful earlygame where most units are soldiers and have WTA ove him, the FE5 RNG isn't helping him out either.

I still think that the light sword gives him good bosskill utility early game that is pretty useful. But I do think he's still the worst.

I played it and still voted for Athos. Sety is just TOO damn overpowered. Heck, Holsety bonuses are better than most units in that game.

Youtube video: sety fights holsety tome and loses And Narga bonuses ARE better than all units in that game. (not that it's in FE5, but still)

Also, in PoR it negated non-wrath Criticals.

...

The PoR version would be "a lot more" or "noticeably" or "significantly" more broken.

No, it wouldn't really. All it is significant for is a +1-5 dodge bonus for Ike so the BK can't critikill him. The only other enemies who can critical Ike - and not tink him - are the silver blade swordmaster and the killer lance wyvern lord. The wyvern lord can be forced to 2-range since it also has a short lance, so this isn't an issue. I guess the critblock is nice against the SM, since I think he also has astra, but it's not really enough to call ragnell "significantly" more broken. With 21 damage per hit ((35-28)*3) Ike could get really unlucky, but I think the SM's hit chance is 40% at best and he's got less than 50% chance to get one RN good enough to critical (since his crit is like 9%).

Edited December 14, 2009 by SeverIan

[RNG Princess]

I turned on Radiant Dawn last night and played the save file of my endgame for a little bit, Ike isn't as horrible as I remember but I still think Micaiah is the best. She's a decent fighter and a great healer I personally <3 multi-taskers.

Ike's hit % is ugly though :( it was 50-60% while hers was 80%+ but then I gave him Lucia's sword Vague Katti and his hit% was a lot better. Since he's not the worst, I vote for Ephraim as the worst.

[Jaybee]

I turned on Radiant Dawn last night and played the save file of my endgame for a little bit, Ike isn't as horrible as I remember but I still think Micaiah is the best. She's a decent fighter and a great healer I personally <3 multi-taskers.

Ike's hit % is ugly though :( it was 50-60% while hers was 80%+ but then I gave him Lucia's sword Vague Katti and his hit% was a lot better. Since he's not the worst, I vote for Ephraim as the worst.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT???

Your Ike must either have been ridiculously screwed, underleveled or at Worst bio for his hit rates to be such. He's always been around 90 hit for me. And Eph is awesome. Reginleif is an awesome weapon, which kills off the cavalry and Generals, and he will gain great stats as well. And then the game decides to toss him Siegmund.

[BK-201]

Wow...

Since when did

Micaiah>Ike>Ephraim

Ephraim is so much better than Erika, Micaiah, Eliwood, Roy, Lyn, and Sanaki.

Favortism.

Ike should have hits in the 90s agaisnt the spirits.

[CT075]

I turned on Radiant Dawn last night and played the save file of my endgame for a little bit, Ike isn't as horrible as I remember but I still think Micaiah is the best. She's a decent fighter and a great healer I personally <3 multi-taskers.

Ike's hit % is ugly though :( it was 50-60% while hers was 80%+ but then I gave him Lucia's sword Vague Katti and his hit% was a lot better. Since he's not the worst, I vote for Ephraim as the worst.

Firstly:

WTF? I think your Ike got majorly screwed.

Secondly:

@bold: I'm beginning to doubt your ability to judge units properly (no offense)