What anime/manga are you following right now?

[Helios]

Ufotable did an amazing job with adapting Fate/Zero. The light novels are even better IMO (they do a better job describing things, spend more time on some of the lesser characters, and describe Berserker's death a lot better) but the action scenes were done so beautifully. When I'm bored sometimes I rewatch the first OP and ED, and some of the fight scenes to just marvel at the beauty. It's a little slow at times, but when its epic it got epic.

Also to those who don't completely understand the ending with Angra Mainyu, it's done like that on purpose. Angra Mainyu is completely explained in the Fate/Stay Night Visual Novel, which I recommend to anyone who hasn't read through it already. The F/SN anime was adapted poorly, but the VN itself is really good (mainly the UBW and HF routes). So yeah you guys should go check that out. Also the sex scenes weren't needed in F/Z since all the mages in this Holy Grail War weren't noobs and actually had some prana to spare (even Waver lol).

Sword Art Online is just unbelievably bad. I didn't think a show could be this bad, much less one with as good a premise as this one has. And yet its sales are through the roof. It's practically guaranteed a sequel.

On another note, Little Busters appears to be getting down to business. Key hasn't let me down yet, so I'm really hoping J.C. Staff doesn't screw this one up. VN readers seem satisfied overall with the adaptation thus far, and they've already confirmed that they aren't trying to squeeze the entire thing into 26 episodes. Since it was speculated that they'd need ~100 episodes to adapt everything reasonably, that is very good news indeed (although I doubt they'll actually go so far unless it sells like hotcakes).

You just can't stop talking about SAO and its disappointingness can you?

I haven't read the VN for Little Busters! but I can say I've really liked the anime so far. I don't understand why some people thought the first episode was boring either. People need a little patience to let things build up. 100 episodes to fit everything in? They must set up an entire Little Busters! league lol.

As for the other Fall Anime that I've seen so far: K's finally starting to be a little more than looking cool and have a ~plot~, Code:Breaker has an annoying cast of characters with meh art but some decent action so I've stuck with it for now, Chuunibyou is half moe half hilarious, Btooom! is probably the second best I've seen so far since it's had good action, fairly realistic characters, and is a bit darker (though sometimes it feels like they try a little too hard to make it dark), and my favorite so far is Shinsekai Yori though some of it isn't making sense right now (though I guess I love anime that doesn't make sense if my favorite is Eva). Oh and I guess I'm watching TLR: Darkness because it's focusing on my favorite character from that show, MOMO!!

Edited November 4, 2012 by Helios

[Maou]

On another note, Little Busters appears to be getting down to business. Key hasn't let me down yet, so I'm really hoping J.C. Staff doesn't screw this one up. VN readers seem satisfied overall with the adaptation thus far, and they've already confirmed that they aren't trying to squeeze the entire thing into 26 episodes. Since it was speculated that they'd need ~100 episodes to adapt everything reasonably, that is very good news indeed (although I doubt they'll actually go so far unless it sells like hotcakes).

JC has done an alright job so far. Their pacing is a little fast, but that doesn't make it unwatchable.

Do you know if they are planning to give Refrain a season to itself, like After Story for Clannad?

[Florete]

They haven't announced any specifics of what they'll do yet. This was the quote: "We know it's impossible to cover the whole story with the current pace. We have promised to animate the entire scenario of the game. I cannot make it clear here but you know what I mean, right? If you watch the 26th episode, there will be a message that you want. Please don't be suspicious. The arcs of your favorite characters will surely be animated. We know 26 episodes is too short."

[uguu]

a lot of words

Fate/Stay Night has issues. It is still amazing despite those, and the worst of its issues are shared by Fate/Zero (aka some arbitrary grim-darkness). However, you aren't talking about the F/SN visual novel, so I can't blame you there. Do not talk about the Fate/Stay Night anime. It is atrocious and not worth noting, and especially do not talk about it as if it is the only vanilla Fate/Stay Night anything that exists. Additionally, I would never recommend someone watch Fate/Zero over reading it. The Fate/Zero anime is good. The Fate/Zero light novel series is amazing. I mean seriously now.

[Jaybee]

Just finished Elfen Lied. Pretty interesting show, though I don't think I'd rewatch it. Gonna give it a little bit of time before moving on to Clannad because of RL stuff.

[tenkiforecast]

Below is a more extended version of why I really do not like Fate/Stay-night.

No, I am talking about the visual novel. I do not see the appeal beyond the initial premise of "Mythological/historical figures battle royal" of Fate/Stay-night for the reasons that I outlined. Ungodly amounts of padding, absolute morality cast (only Archer is the exception), and in desperate need of an editor. The book has one instance of "Show, don't tell" and it's enough for people to remember it--when Saber is first summoned. That sequence is the one moment that I was interested in the story. We are not getting heaps of exposition while something is occurring, we are simply watching everything occur and trying to draw our own conclusions as to what is happening. And then...everything gets over-explained. I can't tell what is occurring at multiple points because there is just so, so much padding that I get lost.

I could go into detail, if you want. The short version is that the protagonists are always justified in their actions, no matter what ideological path Shirou takes. Their only "wrong" things are endangering self by being self-sacrificing (Shirou), challenging Shirou's motivations (rin), or being possessed/evil split personality due to gratuitous abuse (Sakura). The villains (all other Matous, Gilgamesh, Kotomine, Caster) are all irredeemably evil, of the "curb-stomps and eats kittens and puppies" variety. The problem is the premise of the story implies, at least to me, that there should be a good deal of ambiguity in the cast's motivations. This is the case in Fate/Zero. This is not the case in Fate/Stay-night, it is all "good for humanity" reasoning or "I am evil watch me devour this kitten because I am so evil" motivations. Archer and *possibly* Ilya are the only non-absolute morality characters that play into the story. This just rubs me the wrong way.

I would like to see actual reasons for conflict between the servants, which just does not appear in Fate/Stay-night, contrasted with Fate/Zero. This does not mean they need to be from the same time period, like Saber and Berserker from Fate/Zero, but for some reason the cast comes into conflict outside of "get the treasure." This is one reason why Rider is my favorite character in Fate/Zero, all of his battles/conflicts he has an ideological reason to challenge Saber, Gilgamesh, or Caster. In particular, how Rider rattles Saber to the core by challenging her ideology. That scene in the anime, even though it had extremely limited animation and was kind of overshadowed by him summoning his entire army, stood out to me because it highlighted the differences in their ideals of kingship. This doesn't happen in Fate/Stay-night to anyone. Archer tries to challenge Shirou's ideology and fails. It changes in Heaven's Feel because Shirou doesn't want to kill Sakura. There was nothing that drew me in after the initial summoning segment. If the writing displayed far more "Show, don't tell" aspects of the story, I would probably forgive these faults. Hell, I fully enjoy One Piece and Toriko. Those series use Show, don't tell extremely well, however, and Fate/Stay-night does not. The reason I mention Kotomine's 10 minute essay on the rules is because it is indicative of the major flaw in the writing, the overuse of exposition.

One last comparison to Fate/Zero's anime for this aspect. I will again use the explanation of the rules as the example. Fate/Stay-night, the 10 minute narration of you sitting there watching a guy dressed like a Catholic priest who is obviously evil ramble. Fate/Zero, these rules are spread out over the initial part of the story, we see them implemented (use of Command spells), and are stated when necessary. The initial explanation occurs with Waver, who is also learning about the Holy Grail with the audience, we see him looking it up in the library. We see the Church being used as the safe-house when one of Assassin's doppelgangers is blown to pieces. Fate/Zero uses Show, don't tell well and throughout the story. Fate/Stay-night does not, and that's why I was completely detached from the story, and why I criticize it so much.

[Esaka]

Just finished Casshern Sins.

Really, really good

That is all.

[Blademaster!]

What he did throughout the series really made it enjoyable for me--in particular because he is the one who really challenged Saber/King Arthur. He challenged her ideals, he shook her beliefs to the core, and he gave an example why he became the "King of Conquerors." Gilgamesh never challenged Saber intellectually. He never posed a moral threat, he was simply evil, arrogant, and hedonistic. All of Rider's conflicts arose out of character differences and ideals, not the basic "I want the treasure because its treasure."

When I first read this, I was baffled, because not many people get the whole point of Saber and Rider's relationship, and always just go "LOL! Seiba just got told so bad xD!" I thought to myself, "Wow, this guy's pretty smart." Then I read the rest of what you said, and became further baffled again because you seemed to grasp this point, but then failed to grasp portions of FSN's story, though that may stem from a bias you have towards FSN. Anyway...

Most glorious is Kotomine explaining the rules of the Holy Grail War.

It's not like the same thing doesn't happen in the first episode/volume of Zero...

And then there are the ungodly long cooking segments (because that is COMPLETELY NECESSARY, RIGHT) and harem shenanigans (in particular piss me off, harem shows are just ugh).

SOL != harem shenanigans. FSN has practically no harem shenanigans in it, if any at all, mostly because Shirou never has a harem. FHA does since that is kinda the point of a fan disk, but FSN? No. Also, the cooking scenes are necessary since they show how Shirou leads this nice and peaceful life, but still tries to deviate from it because of his ideals.

It is rare that sex scenes are pulled off well in media, they are usually there for fanservice. That is what happens here...and it really disturbs me.

It's an eroge. That kind of stuff goes with the territory, and was done pretty much just to help it sell (the author didn't really want to add them), and in the case of FSN, that helped out a lot considering, to my knowledge, the only VN's that have out sold it in the past decade are Steins;Gate(debatable) for the PSP, Fate Hollow Ataraxia (fan disk sequel), and an entry in the Sakura Wars franchise. And it's not like the sex wasn't used for romantic reasons like with Shirou and Sakura/Saber and Caster and her master.

This is another thing I liked about Fate/Zero. The entire sex thing was dropped. It was never mentioned or brought up in any way, and that was a great move on the part of the writers.

It wasn't dropped. It shows up in the first episode, and was brought up again later through Zouken's trump card (just be happy they didn't do what was done in the manga for Fate/Zero). Some people even view Berserker's attack on Kariya in that scene as an allusion to rape, hence why he was naked (something that also happens in FSN). In fact, the only reason why Rider and Waver probably didn't end up having sex with each other was because it wouldn't have gone over to well with the primary audience of the time, not to mention that Waver isn't as bad a Magus as Shirou.

Spoiler response for your spoilered post:

that I get lost.

I don't really know what to make of your problems with padding. I'm someone who doesn't read very often and has AHDD, and I had no problems following the story. In fact, FSN is one of my favorite works, hence why I'm even bothering to respond to you. For the record, I also really like Zero as well, however I find FSN to be the superior work.

I could go into detail, if you want.

I am always open to well critiqued opinions, something you are very capable of doing, so feel free to do so if you like, but if it's just "I don't like x because that's just who I am" then don't bother wasting your time since I can't really say much of an opinion like that, if you know what I mean.

The short version is that the protagonists are always justified in their actions, no matter what ideological path Shirou takes.

Something the story itself looks into.

being possessed/evil split personality due to gratuitous abuse (Sakura).

It wasn't a split personality. That was actually Sakura.

The villains (all other Matous, Gilgamesh, Kotomine, Caster) are all irredeemably evil, of the "curb-stomps and eats kittens and puppies" variety. The problem is the premise of the story implies, at least to me, that there should be a good deal of ambiguity in the cast's motivations. This is the case in Fate/Zero. This is not the case in Fate/Stay-night, it is all "good for humanity" reasoning or "I am evil watch me devour this kitten because I am so evil" motivations.

Did you even understand the goals of the cast in the story? In Zero you have:

Masters:

Kiritsugu: He has an it is all for the good of humanity goal. He wants to create eternal peace in the world.

Tokiomi: Want's to reach the root.

Kayneth: Want's to show off because he fell for the whole sham of the war

Waver: Same as the above.

Kariya: He wants to kill Tokiomi (Wasn't the reason he entered the war, but it became his reason during the war).

Kirei: Wants to find what he wants.

Uryuu: Blood and guts are fun! Let's see even more cool shit!

Servants:

Saber: Defy Fate.

Gilgamesh: I want to have fun

Lancer: I want to fix the mistakes I made in my life.

Rider: True incarnation.

Berserker: Wishes Arthur would punish him, but in reality has no goal

Assassin: No Goal

Caster: I have already won.

In Stay Night you have:

Masters:

Shirou: I won't let the grail fall into the wrong hands/I will become a hero of Justice

Rin: To reach the root

Bazette: I haven't read FHA, but I believe it is the same reason as Kayneth/Waver

Shinji: Same as Waver/Kayneth

Sakura: To live a peaceful life with Shirou

Ilya: Obtain that which is rightfully hers/complete the third magic (family goal)

Zouken: Become immortal

Kuzuki: Help Caster

Kirei: Realize that which I discovered in the previous war

Servants:

Saber: Defy Fate

Archer: Defy Fate

Lancer: Fight strong opponents

Rider: No goal/can't remember. Just helps her master.

Berserker: No goal.

Fake Assassin: Fight the battle my life denied me

True Assassin: Become more than a random incarnation of Hassan

Caster: Make up for the tragic life I lead

Gilgamesh: Make the world suitable for my rule again/have fun

The cast of FSN certainly has much better motivations and goals, and if anything, the characters in Zero just have subset goals of those in Stay Night, especially when comparing Shirou/Kerry and Shinji/Waver.

I would like to see actual reasons for conflict between the servants, which just does not appear in Fate/Stay-night, contrasted with Fate/Zero. This does not mean they need to be from the same time period, like Saber and Berserker from Fate/Zero, but for some reason the cast comes into conflict outside of "get the treasure." This is one reason why Rider is my favorite character in Fate/Zero, all of his battles/conflicts he has an ideological reason to challenge Saber, Gilgamesh, or Caster. In particular, how Rider rattles Saber to the core by challenging her ideology. That scene in the anime, even though it had extremely limited animation and was kind of overshadowed by him summoning his entire army, stood out to me because it highlighted the differences in their ideals of kingship. This doesn't happen in Fate/Stay-night to anyone. Archer tries to challenge Shirou's ideology and fails. It changes in Heaven's Feel because Shirou doesn't want to kill Sakura.

While what you are describing is indeed an interesting aspect of Zero, but also a huge failing on the part of the story. The cast shouldn't even be able to interact with each other in such a way. It's a battle royal, something that FSN emphasizes more than Zero. Also, you saying "this doesn't happen to anyone" in Stay Night is laughable considering such conflicts are the whole point of the story, especially in UBW, with Archer/Shirou's conflicting ideals often being seen as the highlight of the story by many. What you praise Rider for doing is something that Shirou also does in FSN with Saber, except in more depth, and this is something even the FSN anime manages to cover, although very poorly.

One last comparison to Fate/Zero's anime for this aspect. I will again use the explanation of the rules as the example. Fate/Stay-night, the 10 minute narration of you sitting there watching a guy dressed like a Catholic priest who is obviously evil ramble. Fate/Zero, these rules are spread out over the initial part of the story, we see them implemented (use of Command spells), and are stated when necessary. The initial explanation occurs with Waver, who is also learning about the Holy Grail with the audience, we see him looking it up in the library. We see the Church being used as the safe-house when one of Assassin's doppelgangers is blown to pieces.

What you describe here about how the process of the war is explained through multiple characters is indeed interesting, but at the same time not. What made FSN interesting is that you don't know who the masters/servants are right away, and you're always guessing as to who or what will show up when. Most of what you are complaining about here though makes me think you've forgotten what the prologue was about though, not too mention that the VN purposely goes into more detail about these things so as to better explain their use, especially in the case of command seals. Honestly, this "Show, don't tell" thing you describe is the opposite of why I enjoyed FSN.

[Esau of Isaac]

Watched all of Guilty Crown. It was a fairly well-made shonen with a nice time-skip for the second season that I usually look for. Not enough main characters doing anything, though, and the very end was predictably dreadful when it comes to anime. I can't think of many anime that don't go out of their way to be purposefully somber or melancholic. Ugh.

[spoiler=Ending spoilers]Why the hell do the heroes in anime so rarely get the girl? Even if it's entirely plausible for them to live happily or at least be together, there's always some lame instant circumstance that causes them to die in a fitting puff of smoke with their last goodbyes.

Also there were a huge number of things that were just completely unexplained. I've heard it was based off a visual novel and after having watched all of it I certainly feel that way.

To continue this vibe of being pissed at endings, I also finished reading Slam Dunk. I can't see why everyone thinks it's the most amazing thing since sliced tofu. The characters all had a great setup, and the final match we saw was brilliantly written. But there are so many issues with it that are difficult to reconcile:

[spoiler=More ending spoilers (~^0^)~]1.) First and foremost: This manga was short as fuck considering its universal praise, both storywise and in the real world. I don't know, maybe I'm spoiled since I read it over the course of a month instead of six years, but either way the story barely felt halfway done when it ended. I mean seriously, the whole thing takes place over four months? And excepting Akagi all of these guys were freshmen or sophomores? We could have seen these guys later make careers, join professional teams, and develop further into real characters. How badass would it have been to see some of them join different teams while more characters are introduced and in the final battle several years later we'd see matchups like Rukawa versus Mitsui?

2.) Somewhat piggy-backing on the first complaint, but it ends out of nowhere. If I wasn't aware each time I went from chapter to chapter how close to the end I was I would have expected them to go to the next match after that wonderful conclusion. But no, it's just "Holy shit, biggest upset ever, Sanou loses to Shohoku! Now they're geared up, and still in the tour-- oh by the way they abruptly lost their next game offscreen and tiiiiiiimeskip ending!"

3.) Sakuragi is stated to be a genius, but while he improves we rarely see him do anything but fuck up massively. It's cute, and it gives the manga lots of character, and I'll say that I consider him one of my more favorite protagonists. But he never got to have the development he deserved. He basically joined for a season of basketball, started really becoming a player, broke his back, and that's all folks.

4.) Fuck Rukawa. This guy is broken as hell and never develops. His hate-hate relationship with Sakuragi's cool but he's just a big asshole that doesn't contribute other than to be that yaoi fangirl guy. Which reminds me:

5.) Fuck Haruko. She sucks. You don't deserve Hanamichi's adoration you whore who likes Rukawa goddamn.

I've started reading Eyeshield 21 recently. Please tell me it doesn't tread the same path as Slam Dunk. Please.

[tenkiforecast]

When I first read this, I was baffled, because not many people get the whole point of Saber and Rider's relationship, and always just go "LOL! Seiba just got told so bad xD!" I thought to myself, "Wow, this guy's pretty smart." Then I read the rest of what you said, and became further baffled again because you seemed to grasp this point, but then failed to grasp portions of FSN's story, though that may stem from a bias you have towards FSN. Anyway...

I'll try to respond as best I can. I'm not that good in debates, and I do not have a huge knowledge of Fate/Stay-Night, only what I remember when I tried to read it. Needless to say, this is why I was hesitant to state that I do not like Fate/Stay Night, I knew there would be some sort of reaction. It's not a hatred for the series (that's reserved for two mangas I've read), more of a frustration because I do see potential in the story, but I feel like it is wasted.

It's not like the same thing doesn't happen in the first episode/volume of Zero...

What I mean to say is a matter of context and presentation. A particularly clever moment in the manga "Bakuman" has the protagnoists discussing how events can be made interesting while one is sweeping the floor. When the one sitting down comments that this event could make for an intriguing scene, the one sweeping considers it, and brushes it off. Exposition does not need to be boring. You get pretty much the same information in the beginning of Fate/Zero as Fate/Stay Night, the difference is execution. Fate/Zero's is not perfect (5 minute scene of Kirei Sr. and Tohsaka walking around Kotomine talking), but the overall set-up is much improved over one person detailing the rules. Waver finds out through research, some explanations are offered when the heroic artifacts are brought up among the rest of the cast, and it is not presented in one massive infodump. I got more out of Fate/Zero's presentation than Fate/Stay-Nights. Yeah, I get picky, I am aware...

SOL != harem shenanigans. FSN has practically no harem shenanigans in it, if any at all, mostly because Shirou never has a harem. FHA does since that is kinda the point of a fan disk, but FSN? No. Also, the cooking scenes are necessary since they show how Shirou leads this nice and peaceful life, but still tries to deviate from it because of his ideals.

I guess I attribute Slice-of-Life tropes to harem shows because I tend to shy away from slice of life series, most of them put me to sleep, so I am more exposed when they are in a harem or harem-esque series. That, and my undying hatred for Love Hina (one of the two despised series) kind of skews my views...

There is a degree of opinion to this. It is not necessarily that the cooking aspects are completely out of place, but it is the same problem that I have when meteorology is brought up--I can't stop talking about it. To me, these scenes seemed to go on and on...it gave me the impression of padding instead of a character trait. I'll use Persona 4 (the game) as an example--one could infer that the protagonist is a good cook based on the pseudo-quest prompts that show up, and how it relates to the rest of the cast is kept brief. I probably wouldn't have a problem with this if it did not feel like padding.

It's an eroge. That kind of stuff goes with the territory, and was done pretty much just to help it sell (the author didn't really want to add them), and in the case of FSN, that helped out a lot considering, to my knowledge, the only VN's that have out sold it in the past decade are Steins;Gate(debatable) for the PSP, Fate Hollow Ataraxia (fan disk sequel), and an entry in the Sakura Wars franchise. And it's not like the sex wasn't used for romantic reasons like with Shirou and Sakura/Saber and Caster and her master.

I'll probably never be appeased about this. Inserting sex into a story is a huge risk for me. It either turns out really well and fits with the characters (Utena, Berserk, Wolf's Rain to an extent--the divorced couple, and that's in flashback) or it turns me off from the series. Part of the problem is...writing a sex scene is really, really difficult. Of the ones that I actually think fit, Berserk barely skirts the line because the scene with Guts and Casca gets pretty brutal. Not to mention the amount of violent sex in that series is staggering, which makes me need to specify the one scene that has an impact on me that is not horror. Fate/SN is not alone in, what I would call, badly written sex scenes. A good number of the lines (yes, I have read some of them) sounded like they came from a rape sequence or were so hilariously impossible that I couldn't take it seriously. I know there are other series that use sex in the story, but none of them really appeal to me. SImply put, I'm not the target audience.

It wasn't dropped. It shows up in the first episode, and was brought up again later through Zouken's trump card (just be happy they didn't do what was done in the manga for Fate/Zero). Some people even view Berserker's attack on Kariya in that scene as an allusion to rape, hence why he was naked (something that also happens in FSN). In fact, the only reason why Rider and Waver probably didn't end up having sex with each other was because it wouldn't have gone over to well with the primary audience of the time, not to mention that Waver isn't as bad a Magus as Shirou.

I am aware that elements of it were kept in Fate/Zero. I was really glad they cut them out in the anime adaptation for the reasons I outlined above. Sex scenes tend to derail a series for me, and very few manage to return without compromising the narrative.

I don't really know what to make of your problems with padding. I'm someone who doesn't read very often and has AHDD, and I had no problems following the story. In fact, FSN is one of my favorite works, hence why I'm even bothering to respond to you. For the record, I also really like Zero as well, however I find FSN to be the superior work.

Parts tended to be overly described when I tried reading F/SN, and the cooking/slice of life stuff bored me to tears. It is not inherently bad, I just felt like there is a larger story going on so, for example, why are we spending so much time watching Rin being tsundere? I don't overtly hate slice of life, heck, I love Azumanga Daioh and Yotsuba&. Probably depends on pacing, both of those series tend to be more rapid-fire comedy or bizarre situations (Chiyo-chichi... my lord) so I don't lose interest. This is actually my complaint with Lucky Star. I can't watch it because it bores me to tears...get to the joke, don't spend two minutes setting up a reference pun. Maybe I don't have a high tolerance for it, I do not really know.

I am always open to well critiqued opinions, something you are very capable of doing, so feel free to do so if you like, but if it's just "I don't like x because that's just who I am" then don't bother wasting your time since I can't really say much of an opinion like that, if you know what I mean.

Alright, the main characters:

Shirou: There is potential with his character, but the aspect that always bugged me was that he always seemed to be correct in any decision. I do like that his views were malleable, one of Kiritsugu's main flaws is that he would not change his views. Heck, that's one of the major "bad endings" for Fate/SN in Heaven's Feel, refusing to change values. The problem is that whenever it occurred, whenever Shiro was confronted, it felt like he always did the right thing. I do not remember how much he struggled with each decision in each route, that is something that would need to be clarified for me. I remember getting the impression that it was a rather quick decision or spurred on by someone else... Heaven's Feel, it was Ilya, I believe. I guess the major issue for me is that Shirou came off as the morally-correct protagonist who will always do the right thing. I tend to not like those characters in stories beyond generic shonens, and Fate/SN always felt like it was trying to be more ambitious in its story than a One Piece/Toriko/DB style series.

Rin: I do not find Tsunderes endearing or charming. They tend to be really, really obnoxious when I watch a story with tsunderes. Tiger and Bunny, I did not start liking Karina's character until she stopped being so antagonistic towards Kotetsu. Part of the problem is that tsunderes act that way to appeal to a specific fanbase. Rin gives me that vibe. Yes, it can be explained as being part of a historically important family and arrogant/prideful as a result. The degree is what bugs me, she shows very few traits outside of "tsun-tsun dere-dere" and the writers let it define her entire character. This one is probably just personal preference, but...yeah, Rin bugs me.

Saber: I find less offense with her character, and more the way that her development is portrayed. I get the idea--learn to enjoy life as a human being and not isolate yourself. The problem for me is in the presentation. I got the impression that her development was tied more to "She is so kingly/lonely/isolated because she never fell in love with a good man that would make her whole because women need a man in their lives." I may be more trigger-happy on this, but given the attitude of most of my relatives towards women's rights and teachers, I respond with more intensity. Hell, I could be wrong, but this is always the impression I received. Saber was never loved, and now she is so she is healed~~maybe my own emotional issues make me look at this argument with scorn, and how I still struggle with depression even after receiving clinical treatment for over four years. It is not that simple...and yes, I am aware that it is not necessarily Shirou that serves the "loved one" role, Rin takes it too. Actually, this makes me roll my eyes more, making Rin more of a fetishy character.

Sakura: Her entire character is defined by horrific abuse, Freudian issues, and love towards Shirou. I really can't say much about this, except how much it unnerves me. It feels like she was introduced to be the abused character, and outside of that, she is defined by her relationship to Shirou. The Bechdel test is not perfect, but my lord does Sakura fail that test.

It wasn't a split personality. That was actually Sakura.

Well, I was wrong there. I saw that as more of a split personality thing from all the abuse.

Did you even understand the goals of the cast in the story? In Zero you have:

Masters:

Kiritsugu: He has an it is all for the good of humanity goal. He wants to create eternal peace in the world.

Tokiomi: Want's to reach the root.

Kayneth: Want's to show off because he fell for the whole sham of the war

Waver: Same as the above.

Kariya: He wants to kill Tokiomi (Wasn't the reason he entered the war, but it became his reason during the war).

Kirei: Wants to find what he wants.

Uryuu: Blood and guts are fun! Let's see even more cool shit!

Servants:

Saber: Defy Fate.

Gilgamesh: I want to have fun

Lancer: I want to fix the mistakes I made in my life.

Rider: True incarnation.

Berserker: Wishes Arthur would punish him, but in reality has no goal

Assassin: No Goal

Caster: I have already won.

In Stay Night you have:

Masters:

Shirou: I won't let the grail fall into the wrong hands/I will become a hero of Justice

Rin: To reach the root

Bazette: I haven't read FHA, but I believe it is the same reason as Kayneth/Waver

Shinji: Same as Waver/Kayneth

Sakura: To live a peaceful life with Shirou

Ilya: Obtain that which is rightfully hers/complete the third magic (family goal)

Zouken: Become immortal

Kuzuki: Help Caster

Kirei: Realize that which I discovered in the previous war

Servants:

Saber: Defy Fate

Archer: Defy Fate

Lancer: Fight strong opponents

Rider: No goal/can't remember. Just helps her master.

Berserker: No goal.

Fake Assassin: Fight the battle my life denied me

True Assassin: Become more than a random incarnation of Hassan

Caster: Make up for the tragic life I lead

Gilgamesh: Make the world suitable for my rule again/have fun

The cast of FSN certainly has much better motivations and goals, and if anything, the characters in Zero just have subset goals of those in Stay Night, especially when comparing Shirou/Kerry and Shinji/Waver.

I found it the opposite, personally. That, or the dynamic between Saber/Alexander/Gligamesh/Lancelot made up for a lot of the character faults. Motivation is more influential with me, and I felt like the motivations in Fate/Zero were more complex. That, or I was reading the morality aspects more. So much of Fate/Zero is defined by a gray view of morality, with less absolute good/evil. Shirou is almost always pure good in some form or another, whichever aspect of his ideals are being used. Saber is always on the side of good. Rin is only slightly not always good, and that's the arrogance breaking through. The protagonists of Fate/Zero, Saber is again good but her ideals are challenged in a more pronounced way (to me, at least). Kiritsugu is absurdly gray, having committed crimes and hurt the people he loves in name of a "greater good" which is almost shattered by the end. The ending of Fate/Zero is particularly brutal in this since, his reaction upon finding Shirou was "At least I saved one life." Archer is the main exception in Fate/SN, but even then, he never left the same sort of impact. Fate/SN, the major villains have motivations and goals that are for the evulz. This is the same to an extent in Fate/Zero, but there is progression towards that end. Fate/SN, Gilgamesh and Kotomine struck me as very static. Their motivations felt more boring to me in Fate/Zero. This may be one of those "Agree/Disagree" moments. I rolled my eyes at the cast of Fate/SN more than Fate/Zero, that's the gist of it.

While what you are describing is indeed an interesting aspect of Zero, but also a huge failing on the part of the story. The cast shouldn't even be able to interact with each other in such a way. It's a battle royal, something that FSN emphasizes more than Zero. Also, you saying "this doesn't happen to anyone" in Stay Night is laughable considering such conflicts are the whole point of the story, especially in UBW, with Archer/Shirou's conflicting ideals often being seen as the highlight of the story by many. What you praise Rider for doing is something that Shirou also does in FSN with Saber, except in more depth, and this is something even the FSN anime manages to cover, although very poorly.

What you describe here about how the process of the war is explained through multiple characters is indeed interesting, but at the same time not. What made FSN interesting is that you don't know who the masters/servants are right away, and you're always guessing as to who or what will show up when. Most of what you are complaining about here though makes me think you've forgotten what the prologue was about though, not too mention that the VN purposely goes into more detail about these things so as to better explain their use, especially in the case of command seals. Honestly, this "Show, don't tell" thing you describe is the opposite of why I enjoyed FSN.

I guess that points to different genres. The question of "who is the servant/master" never really bugged me. I liked seeing the interaction between servants in Fate/Zero, and it was the most enjoyable part of the series for me. This led to more reasons why the servants fought each other--not just because it is a battle royal for the Grail. I never got that feeling in Fate/SN. Kiritsugu points this out when Lancer dies in Fate/Zero, in a way, that the idea of always searching for strong, honorable opponents gets more people killed. For me, it is the question "Why are these people in conflict?" and not getting an answer besides Good/Evil/Treasure. That type of conflict is not interesting to me. Most of the conflicts in Fate/SN did not interest me for this very reason, the grail was the only reason they fought each other. The interaction between the servants helped me become interested in the story in Fate/Zero, if not why I was interested. Maybe that makes Fate/SN and Fate/Zero two different genres altogether, with a more mystery aspect towards Fate/SN. I don't know how best to explain it.

The reason I mentioned how the rules were paced out is a matter of pacing and exposition. I mentioned this earlier, how exposition can vary depending on how it is delivered, and I thought the grail war was explained better by Fate/Zero because exposition was tied towards events in the story or character development. Yes, there were some scenes in Fate/SN that helped explain that, Rin summoning Archer, for example, but in my mind, the tedium of Kotomine's infodump blocks it out. You can use that amount of text, that amount of information, I just felt that it was misused in Fate/SN. Hopefully that helps explain my views, and if it didn't, I'm sorry.

[Balcerzak]

(lots of words)

I just want to weigh in on a few things.

1) If you find yourself thinking "I want to CTRL past this to where things are exciting again," that is a sign the filler is poorly done. FSN had a lot of this, by my brief remembrance. Cooking scenes were one such example. I highly disagree that the Kotomine scenes were, but perhaps I'm just too much in love with Nakata's voice.

2) Most games that try to do good overall plot well do sex poorly. Most games that try to do sex well do poorly on the plot. From memory, only Swan Song really comes to mind as one that did a stand up job (IMO) on both, because I'm not counting the games I've only played in Japanese as I'm nowhere near good enough at reading in a foreign language to pass judgement on things like that. There's probably also a huge cultural shift in what makes for good eroticism between us and the Japanese too, as a lot of repeated sexual tropes just make me cringe, rather than actually doing their job.

Alright, the main characters:

Shirou: There is potential with his character, but the aspect that always bugged me was that he always seemed to be correct in any decision. I do like that his views were malleable, one of Kiritsugu's main flaws is that he would not change his views. Heck, that's one of the major "bad endings" for Fate/SN in Heaven's Feel, refusing to change values.

Lies and Slander: Mind of Steel was the best Heavens Feel end. Well, maybe Sparks Liner High competes, but... you get my point.

I guess the major issue for me is that Shirou came off as the morally-correct protagonist who will always do the right thing.

Shirou was probably the least likeable character in FSN. (Shinji/Zouken doesn't count.) Most of your criticism are valid.

Rin: I do not find Tsunderes endearing or charming. They tend to be really, really obnoxious when I watch a story with tsunderes.

The degree is what bugs me, she shows very few traits outside of "tsun-tsun dere-dere" and the writers let it define her entire character. This one is probably just personal preference, but...yeah, Rin bugs me.

I'm completely confused here. Rin is one of the mildest tsundere, and actually has a lot of other things fleshing her out. Not to mention most of the times she's angry at Shirou she has incredibly valid reasons to be that way. However, personal preference etc. Sometimes you just don't like who you just don't like.

Saber: I find less offense with her character, and more the way that her development is portrayed.

Entirely reasonable.

[Blademaster!]

I'm not that good in debates

I was more interested in picking your mind so to say than debating. In that aspect, you delivered just fine and I enjoyed reading your post.

What I mean to say is a matter of context and presentation. A particularly clever moment in the manga "Bakuman" has the protagnoists discussing how events can be made interesting while one is sweeping the floor. When the one sitting down comments that this event could make for an intriguing scene, the one sweeping considers it, and brushes it off.

Bakuman was a lot more clever than I remember it to be, but what you are describing isn't something I really notice very often in most anime/manga in general.

Exposition does not need to be boring. You get pretty much the same information in the beginning of Fate/Zero as Fate/Stay Night, the difference is execution. Fate/Zero's is not perfect (5 minute scene of Kirei Sr. and Tohsaka walking around Kotomine talking), but the overall set-up is much improved over one person detailing the rules. Waver finds out through research, some explanations are offered when the heroic artifacts are brought up among the rest of the cast, and it is not presented in one massive infodump. I got more out of Fate/Zero's presentation than Fate/Stay-Nights. Yeah, I get picky, I am aware...

I wouldn't really call that picky. And by got more out of you mean in an entertaining way, and not a factual way right? For me, I read FSN first and completely unspoiled, so when I read that scene in the VN I was ecstatic since the whole idea of the grail war seemed brilliant to me.

I guess I attribute Slice-of-Life tropes to harem shows because I tend to shy away from slice of life series, most of them put me to sleep, so I am more exposed when they are in a harem or harem-esque series. That, and my undying hatred for Love Hina (one of the two despised series) kind of skews my views...

Well, if you hate one of the most influentially harem series ever that certainly says a lot...

There is a degree of opinion to this. It is not necessarily that the cooking aspects are completely out of place, but it is the same problem that I have when meteorology is brought up--I can't stop talking about it. To me, these scenes seemed to go on and on...it gave me the impression of padding instead of a character trait. I'll use Persona 4 (the game) as an example--one could infer that the protagonist is a good cook based on the pseudo-quest prompts that show up, and how it relates to the rest of the cast is kept brief. I probably wouldn't have a problem with this if it did not feel like padding.

I see what you mean with the P4 example, but at the same time, that's something that only video games can really get away with doing.

SImply put, I'm not the target audience.

Not many people are.

Parts tended to be overly described when I tried reading F/SN, and the cooking/slice of life stuff bored me to tears. It is not inherently bad, I just felt like there is a larger story going on so, for example, why are we spending so much time watching Rin being tsundere?

This is perhaps my fault for not being clear, but I meant more along the lines of I'm surprised the padding would cause you to get lost while reading the story and not understand what is going on.

Alright, the main characters:

Shirou: There is potential with his character, but the aspect that always bugged me was that he always seemed to be correct in any decision. I do like that his views were malleable, one of Kiritsugu's main flaws is that he would not change his views. Heck, that's one of the major "bad endings" for Fate/SN in Heaven's Feel, refusing to change values. The problem is that whenever it occurred, whenever Shiro was confronted, it felt like he always did the right thing. I do not remember how much he struggled with each decision in each route, that is something that would need to be clarified for me. I remember getting the impression that it was a rather quick decision or spurred on by someone else... Heaven's Feel, it was Ilya, I believe. I guess the major issue for me is that Shirou came off as the morally-correct protagonist who will always do the right thing. I tend to not like those characters in stories beyond generic shonens, and Fate/SN always felt like it was trying to be more ambitious in its story than a One Piece/Toriko/DB style series.

The whole "Shirou is correct in any decision" is something that is definitely explored in heavy detail in Heaven's Feel, to the point where that could be said to be the main conflict of the route. Also, I believe the bad end you are referring to is likely mind of steel, where Shirou definitely changes his values since that is the ending where he pretty much becomes Kiritsugu.

Rin: I do not find Tsunderes endearing or charming. They tend to be really, really obnoxious when I watch a story with tsunderes. Tiger and Bunny, I did not start liking Karina's character until she stopped being so antagonistic towards Kotetsu. Part of the problem is that tsunderes act that way to appeal to a specific fanbase. Rin gives me that vibe. Yes, it can be explained as being part of a historically important family and arrogant/prideful as a result. The degree is what bugs me, she shows very few traits outside of "tsun-tsun dere-dere" and the writers let it define her entire character. This one is probably just personal preference, but...yeah, Rin bugs me.

Rin is considered classic Tsundere, so it is odd that you would hate her character, but if you don't like Tsundere characters there isn't much that can be said really. She certainly has more to her character than being Tsudere considering her playful attitude, greed, bi-sexual tendencies, and intelligence.

Saber: I find less offense with her character, and more the way that her development is portrayed. I get the idea--learn to enjoy life as a human being and not isolate yourself. The problem for me is in the presentation. I got the impression that her development was tied more to "She is so kingly/lonely/isolated because she never fell in love with a good man that would make her whole because women need a man in their lives." I may be more trigger-happy on this, but given the attitude of most of my relatives towards women's rights and teachers, I respond with more intensity. Hell, I could be wrong, but this is always the impression I received. Saber was never loved, and now she is so she is healed~~maybe my own emotional issues make me look at this argument with scorn, and how I still struggle with depression even after receiving clinical treatment for over four years. It is not that simple...and yes, I am aware that it is not necessarily Shirou that serves the "loved one" role, Rin takes it too. Actually, this makes me roll my eyes more, making Rin more of a fetishy character.

I think the other thing about her character that you may be missing has to do with her changing her wish, which was the main conflict of her character. Although learning to lead a normal life was indeed an important part of her character, the main point was that she should realize that she had already accomplished everything she could as king, did a good enough job as is, and get her well deserved rest. As for her development being tied to her falling in love and finding salvation because of that, that is just a subset of what she really needed; to be happy. Bedivere and Alex both wished for her salvation through happiness, and she just happened to fall in love with Shirou because of how well the two mirror each other, which is the reason why she was able to find salvation at all in the story (because they mirror each other, not the being in love thing).

Sakura: Her entire character is defined by horrific abuse, Freudian issues, and love towards Shirou. I really can't say much about this, except how much it unnerves me. It feels like she was introduced to be the abused character, and outside of that, she is defined by her relationship to Shirou. The Bechdel test is not perfect, but my lord does Sakura fail that test.

She's a love or hate character.

Well, I was wrong there. I saw that as more of a split personality thing from all the abuse.

That's how she tries to portray it, but Kotomine sees through her.

Motivation is more influential with me, and I felt like the motivations in Fate/Zero were more complex.

The only character who felt like they had complex motivation in Zero to me was Kariya as a result of his descent into madness. Otherwise, everyone was very straight forward in what they wanted.

Fate/SN, Gilgamesh and Kotomine struck me as very static. Their motivations felt more boring to me in Fate/Zero.

Typo? Because for me, it's definitely the opposite. Kotomine is no where near as interesting/entertaining in Zero as he is in FSN.

I don't know how best to explain it.

It's just a matter of preference. I enjoyed the fact that the servants were able to converse as such in Zero since they couldn't do so in FSN, but at the same time it felt like it removed more of the atmosphere from the story for me.

Hopefully that helps explain my views, and if it didn't, I'm sorry.

The main problem I would say I have with what you are saying is that most of what you are complaining about is already there in my opinion, especially in the case of conflicting ideology. Also, as a word of advice, if you really don't like getting into debates with people about stuff, be careful with what you say about conflicting ideology when it comes to Archer/Shirou should you ever enter the topic in the future. It is generally seen as the highlight of the VN and likely why Archer is the most popular male Type-Moon character. There are also a lot of people out there who would probably try and "tear you open a new asshole" about that matter.

Lies and Slander: Mind of Steel was the best Heavens Feel end. Well, maybe Sparks Liner High competes, but... you get my point.

Why so edgy? I liked SLH and the True End the most...

Shirou was probably the least likeable character in FSN. (Shinji/Zouken doesn't count.) Most of your criticism are valid.

Shirou is like Sakura. Both are characters you either love or hate. In the case of Sakura, it leans more towards hate. In the case of Shirou, it definitely leans more towards love (As far as I've seen. I certainly found him to be one of the best characters in the series). Also, popularity polls would highly disagree with your statement.

[DancingDanny]

I just finished Ouran High School Host Club, and before that I watched Peach Girl. Now I've moved onto xxxHolic! :O)

[Rapier]

Basically this. It had so much potential but it was just wasted. No main plot, rushed romance, horrible pacing, and they STILL left a ton of stuff from the LNs out. Even the battle scenes became horrible. The next arc should be better pacing-wise at least, but I'm definitely disappointed.

Anything noticeably bad about SAO? I'm thinking about watching it, after I find and watch the Rebuild of Evangelion movies.

Shirou is like Sakura. Both are characters you either love or hate. In the case of Sakura, it leans more towards hate. In the case of Shirou, it definitely leans more towards love (As far as I've seen. I certainly found him to be one of the best characters in the series). Also, popularity polls would highly disagree with your statement.

In my case, I liked Sakura but hated Shirou from the start of the VN. Am I the only one who finds his morals strange or too overreactive? It's been some time since I last read FSN, so I might not be able to argue about it with more depth.

Funny thing is, I have the same thought about Tohno Shiki. I liked Tsukihime way more than FSN (other than Arcueid and Kohaku's routes, I saw no problems with it), but the protagonist is a jerk most of the time while being regarded as a saint.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Rapier

[Blademaster!]

Am I the only one who finds his morals strange or too overreactive?

That's the point of his character.

Kohaku's routes

That was my favorite route ;_;

[Helios]

Anything noticeably bad about SAO? I'm thinking about watching it, after I find and watch the Rebuild of Evangelion movies.

In my case, I liked Sakura but hated Shirou from the start of the VN. Am I the only one who finds his morals strange or too overreactive? It's been some time since I last read FSN, so I might not be able to argue about it with more depth.

Funny thing is, I have the same thought about Tohno Shiki. I liked Tsukihime way more than FSN (other than Arcueid and Kohaku's routes, I saw no problems with it), but the protagonist is a jerk most of the time while being regarded as a saint.

You should talk to Red Fox about SAO. She really loves to talk about it hahaha. My opinion is basically what has been said in the quotation you quoted, and most noticeably you just feel like everything is rushed and nothing is really focused on. They just do a halfassed job with everything: action, romance, plot, characters...everything. It's too bad because with the idea it could have been one of the better anime to have come out this year.

I remember talking about this with Proto. I personally felt bad for Sakura and all that she had to go through, but Shirou was annoying as hell (even though that was the point). It didn't really do anything to make me dislike F/SN though; the other two routes were really good and I ended up loving it. And now Saber seems to be really cute to me for some reason.

Would you guys suggest I read Tsukhime?

Also to anyone that enjoys high school romances (with a twist of course), I suggest Ef - Tale of Memories (suggested to me by RF). It's really good.

[ShinKuma]

You should talk to Red Fox about SAO. She really loves to talk about it hahaha. My opinion is basically what has been said in the quotation you quoted, and most noticeably you just feel like everything is rushed and nothing is really focused on. They just do a halfassed job with everything: action, romance, plot, characters...everything. It's too bad because with the idea it could have been one of the better anime to have come out this year.

You're not a fan of the show? I mean it had it's wtf moments and stuff and a few parts were left unanswered to a point but I think it went well for a show so far. I was extremely saddened with how the first arc went but I think the second arc is ok.

[Helios]

You're not a fan of the show? I mean it had it's wtf moments and stuff and a few parts were left unanswered to a point but I think it went well for a show so far. I was extremely saddened with how the first arc went but I think the second arc is ok.

I'm not a fan of the anime. I've read the first 6 Light Novels though (just finished the 6th one right now actually) and I thought those were pretty entertaining. Also read a few of the side stories as well. Honestly it could just be soooo much better than they actually ended up executing it when you think about it, and you don't need to read the LNs to know that. The second arc is better, I agree, but that's because the pacing seems to be better so far.

[redturtle806]

I just finished black lagoon, best anime I've seen in a while.

[CheatEnabled]

finished angel beats and now almost done watching madoka magica!

[Blademaster!]

Would you guys suggest I read Tsukhime?

If you can get past the dated art style, then yes. If you can't, learn Japanese and wait for the remake (you have enough time to do so) or just read the manga, though that just covers Arc's route(however the manga adaptation is amazing). Though most people like Tsukihime for Akiha, Hisui, and Kohaku's routes.

[Rapier]

You should talk to Red Fox about SAO. She really loves to talk about it hahaha. My opinion is basically what has been said in the quotation you quoted, and most noticeably you just feel like everything is rushed and nothing is really focused on. They just do a halfassed job with everything: action, romance, plot, characters...everything. It's too bad because with the idea it could have been one of the better anime to have come out this year.

I remember talking about this with Proto. I personally felt bad for Sakura and all that she had to go through, but Shirou was annoying as hell (even though that was the point). It didn't really do anything to make me dislike F/SN though; the other two routes were really good and I ended up loving it. And now Saber seems to be really cute to me for some reason.

I like FSN, I just dislike Shirou. Since he's the protagonist, there is a lot of focus on him, which makes me hate him even more. Also, the kitchen scenes are boring and annoying and Tohsaka also managed to annoy me from time to time. Besides this, I like the VN.

Would you guys suggest I read Tsukhime?

Definitely. I found the characters way more interesting than those of FSN and the overall plot is great. Just a warning, though: The characters are only important on their routes. Arcueid loses all her importance in the other routes, and so does everyone else basically, they become coadjuvant (sub plot-important, in case the term coadjuvant doesn't apply on english) characters.

That was my favorite route ;_;

I like Kohaku, but I expected more from her route.

I think it focused a lot on Akiha bitching. Kohaku has feelings for Shiki but is still a Stepford Smiler, she didn't change. I expected muuuch more from her route. Personally, I like Hisui's ending more than hers, because on both she either redeems herself (with death) or loses her memory and starts another life.

Hisui's route was much better, however. She had a lot of character development and I loved it. Ciel and Akiha's routes, too, are my favorites.

Also

If you can get past the dated art style, then yes. If you can't, learn Japanese and wait for the remake (you have enough time to do so) or just read the manga, though that just covers Arc's route(however the manga adaptation is amazing). Though most people like Tsukihime for Akiha, Hisui, and Kohaku's routes.

I wouldn't recommend reading the manga just because Arcueid's route doesn't appeal to me, but check it out anyway. I'm one of those who like Tsukihime for the aforementioned characters, so... =P

Edited November 8, 2012 by Rapier

[Helios]

@Rapier: I'll check out the VN eventually then. I've got Durarara, Black Lagoon, Gurren Lagann, and Eureka 7 still on my computer and I feel like I should probably watch a couple of them so I can clear up the space on my hard drive. Also wtf we never discussed Eva ;_;.

Finished up Ef - A Tale of Melodies just now. Not as good as its predecessor unfortunately. Some things felt a bit forced, to say the least. Still had some feels though, just not as many. Gonna watch Durarara now because supernatural gang war sounds interesting.

[Balcerzak]

Finished up Ef - A Tale of Melodies just now. Not as good as its predecessor unfortunately. Some things felt a bit forced, to say the least. Still had some feels though, just not as many. Gonna watch Durarara now because supernatural gang war sounds interesting.

Let me know if it's as good as Baccano. Somehow I never got around to watching Dur.

[Florete]

I liked Drrr much more than Baccano, but I'm one of the few who wasn't very fond of Baccano in the first place.