FE6 Tier list part 3

[Inui]

Sophia can stay in Graveyard Tier.

[Bryan]

Sophia can stay in Graveyard Tier.

D:

She really sucks...

[Dat Nick]

If we're done stating things a child can figure out (And proving Red Fox's gender), I'm moving Tate to Upper Mid right below Klein (can always be argued above) on both lists.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Inui]

Is Rutger really better than Miledy and Percival? If you're based on efficiency, Rutger doesn't get to take his time to build and use his crazy supports, and he never gets 1~2 range or a mount. Miledy and Percival have insane supportless durability and offense and more WT control and mobility and all that shit. For instance, in both Sacae and Ilia, they clearly thrash Rutger due to having Javelin/Hand Axe access and being able to move so far in the big open maps.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Why is Tate below Shin for that matter?

Base level 5 Shin:

HP: 29

Str: 9

Skl: 11

Spd: 14

Lck: 8

Def: 8

Res: 1

Base level 8 Tate:

HP: 28

Str: 9

Skl: 12

Spd: 15

Lck: 6

Def: 8

Res: 8

Remarkably similar, as are growths. Shin does have a 1-2 map advantage, but I don't think that outweighs flight when he's also bow-locked for a bit. Supports favor Tate also.

[-Cynthia-]

Is Rutger really better than Miledy and Percival? If you're based on efficiency, Rutger doesn't get to take his time to build and use his crazy supports, and he never gets 1~2 range or a mount. Miledy and Percival have insane supportless durability and offense and more WT control and mobility and all that shit. For instance, in both Sacae and Ilia, they clearly thrash Rutger due to having Javelin/Hand Axe access and being able to move so far in the big open maps.

Rutger is really awesome early in the game where there are enemies no one else doubles and he can, with crit. He's almost essential for killing some bosses, because he's the only one with the base Spd to double them. Rutger doesn't get a huge amount of time to build supports, but he joins pretty early as do some of his support options, and he has enough Spd/Lck to have decent avoid anyway, assuming he's not facing a horde of lances without a Lancereaver.

On Miledy/Percival I might agree on Ilia, but on Sacae Rutger's one of very few doubling Myrms/SMs/Nomads. Miledy and Percival have pretty unimpressive Javelin/Hand Axe offensive due to shaky hit and usually not doubling anyway.

At Shin/Tate. Those 1.5-2.5 chapters (Tate joins pretty late on those chapters) make a big difference in terms of Shin's stats, IE he'll have quite a few levels before Tate shows up. The real reason though is Con. Tate has terrible Con with a weapon type that doesn't help (losing Con from everything not a Slim Lance is bad for her offense). SHin can use decent things like Killers and still double, not to mention not taking counters + flyer effectiveness > Tate's Enemy Phase before promotion.

Edited February 13, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Just a note on Sacae route Klein, if he wields the Brave Bow he's definitely getting doubled, since the Brave Bow is pretty heavy and Klein's Con isn't so good. This makes his countering less effective.

It's but one of 2 counters. He might not double, but he does have Killer Bows to make up for it. Also, depending on his support situation, his ice comes in handy in helping him survive these puny creatures. With B Clarine alone, he's taking 6 damage a nomad (I'm assuming level 8) to his 37-38 HP, which even if they were to double is a 4RKO. If I were to throw in Tate, that's only 3 damage. Even with doubling, that's a 7 RKO to his 37 HP.

Tate's bad here? Assuming 20/5 for when the nomads show up, she would have 12+3 Def and 43 HP. Nomads that were usually doing 18 damage now pack 28, but that's 13 damage and is otherwise a 4HKO, which is not bad for a pegasus. Her 60+15 avoid is...Well, lessee her combat parameters.

Average Nomad

HP: 35

Attack: 18

Hit: 116

Crit: 18

Attack Speed: 19

Avoid: 46

Crit Evade: 9

Defense: 7

Resistance: 5

41 avoid on nomads with short bows is impressive. If for some reason you brought Zealot, a B with him would warrent (I'm going to assume a level 13 Zealot) a paladin who's getting 6RKOd, and even a single dip in Str for these guys can make it a 7RKO. Accuracy-wise, he'd have about 50 hit with a javelin that would do 12 damage. It's not great, but at least he's doing something. In exchange, he gives her 10 more avoid (now 31 displayed, which is getting good), 1 more defense though it's of little consequence, and enough hit to neutralize their avoid. I suppose Zealot's a bit much to keep around at this point, but even without she does decently.

Average Nomad Trooper(Bow/Sword)

HP: 43

Attack: 21/24

Hit: 119/109

Crit: 18/8

Attack Speed: 20/18

Avoid: 49

Crit Evade: 9

Defense: 12

Resistance: 7

Bit worse, but not by much to her. So not only is he himself rarely caring about being doubled on the counter, he also helps someone who would be generally mediocre to fairly solid. Defensively anyways. Lessee, her 17 Str...With an iron lance, she does nearly the same as Klein does with a brave bow. Anything heavier unfortunately would weigh her down and she couldn't double. However, his support helps her exist here. Suffice to say, Klein's a pretty valuable friend to have in Sacae.

Also, outside of Shin/Lance/Rutger or landing a crit, I don't see anyone doing better outside of the use of the brave bow on nomad troopers and the occasional swordmaster.

Perhaps I'm being a bit too broad with my brush though.

I also agree that Zeiss should be examined a bit more, especially in Ilia. His HM bonuses do make his stats very good for his level, and taking the Delphi Shield from Miledy may not be that big of a deal since she still has enough Def to shrug off ballistae.

3 levels and a promotion is all he really needs to be good in Ilia, reasons highlighted in the referred topic.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

At Shin/Tate. Those 1.5-2.5 chapters (Tate joins pretty late on those chapters)

As does Shin.

make a big difference in terms of Shin's stats, IE he'll have quite a few levels before Tate shows up.

How many? Afterwards, I think it's pretty clear that Tate will be leveling faster due to flying versus player phase only for Shin.

The real reason though is Con. Tate has terrible Con with a weapon type that doesn't help (losing Con from everything not a Slim Lance is bad for her offense). SHin can use decent things like Killers and still double, not to mention not taking counters + flyer effectiveness > Tate's Enemy Phase before promotion.

What about post-promotion then? Flight is a dominant advantage here.

[Dat Nick]

If Klein gets doubled it's only relevant if he cant consistently ORKO Nomads. Nomad attacks once, Klein attacks, if both hits hit and kill then the nomads dead before it can get the second hit in.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

At Shin/Tate. Those 1.5-2.5 chapters (Tate joins pretty late on those chapters)

As does Shin.

make a big difference in terms of Shin's stats, IE he'll have quite a few levels before Tate shows up.

How many? Afterwards, I think it's pretty clear that Tate will be leveling faster due to flying versus player phase only for Shin.

The real reason though is Con. Tate has terrible Con with a weapon type that doesn't help (losing Con from everything not a Slim Lance is bad for her offense). SHin can use decent things like Killers and still double, not to mention not taking counters + flyer effectiveness > Tate's Enemy Phase before promotion.

What about post-promotion then? Flight is a dominant advantage here.

[-Cynthia-]

Flight is good, but Tate doesn't exactly have awesome durability like Miledy, so how much she can do on her own is pretty debatable, especially since she won't be getting bonuses from Klein or Zealot or whoever. She can't really go flying off and pwn stuff, especially before promotion, because she doesn't have very good durability or offense. I guess she can ferry people, but so can Thany/Miledy and later Zeiss and Yunno. Flight is only really useful if you have the stats to survive and kill whatever you fly into, and unlike someone like Miledy I'm very unsure about Tate's ability to do this.

Mainly I'm worried about that Con. If Tate is restricted to choosing the Slim Lance for doubling purposes (Iron Lance post promo probably), her offense suffers considerably.

I know flight can save some turns and all, but I don't think we should go overboard with it. Or if we are, might as well move Yunno out of Bottom.

Edited February 13, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

You're exaggerating Tate's con problems. -3 with Iron Lance is annoying but it's really not that much worse than Shin's AS, she can double with iron on plenty of occasions.

[Inui]

Rutger is really awesome early in the game where there are enemies no one else doubles and he can, with crit. He's almost essential for killing some bosses, because he's the only one with the base Spd to double them. Rutger doesn't get a huge amount of time to build supports, but he joins pretty early as do some of his support options, and he has enough Spd/Lck to have decent avoid anyway, assuming he's not facing a horde of lances without a Lancereaver.

Righto, I know he's great early on, but he still never gets 1~2 range or a horse.

On Miledy/Percival I might agree on Ilia, but on Sacae Rutger's one of very few doubling Myrms/SMs/Nomads. Miledy and Percival have pretty unimpressive Javelin/Hand Axe offensive due to shaky hit and usually not doubling anyway.

A supportless 20/10 Percival in Chapter 18 has ~50 Hit with Javelins, kills the Nomads in two hits, and is totally invincible. If Percival is attacked by 4 Nomads, hits 2 of them, and then kills 1 his next turn, he's already greatly exceeding Rutger's offensive output even with Rutger killing something on his turn. If Percival got a C Klein by now, he's got ~55 Hit instead. All of his supports give him some amount of Hit.

Actually countering, even with shitty Hit, is better than not countering at all.

Miledy has flight and invincibility and performs about the same as Percival here. In Ilia, it's no contest in favor of Miledy against Rutger, and Rutger is never better than her starting from then on because she flies, has 1~2 range, and is nearly invincible.

[grandjackal]

You're exaggerating Tate's con problems. -3 with Iron Lance is annoying but it's really not that much worse than Shin's AS, she can double with iron on plenty of occasions.

My post had shown that at like her first 3 chapters, doubling's not happening even with iron. That's quite a bit of time being meh to crap even for a unit that flies, especially since she starts out that way.

[Dat Nick]

missed this part

Or if we are, might as well move Yunno out of Bottom.

...Who wants to tell her?

[dondon151]

Righto, I know he's great early on, but he still never gets 1~2 range or a horse.

Does that mitigate their giant availability losses?

A supportless 20/10 Percival in Chapter 18 has ~50 Hit with Javelins, kills the Nomads in two hits, and is totally invincible. If Percival is attacked by 4 Nomads, hits 2 of them, and then kills 1 his next turn, he's already greatly exceeding Rutger's offensive output even with Rutger killing something on his turn. If Percival got a C Klein by now, he's got ~55 Hit instead. All of his supports give him some amount of Hit.

If Percival has 22 AS (which he should be close to around that point), he can double the nomads anyway, since quite a few of them hover around 18 AS (though they can go as high as 20).

Actually countering, even with shitty Hit, is better than not countering at all.

In Rutger's defense, he gets 25 uses of the Light Brand, which sucks in comparison to a 2-range weapon that can actually ORKO, but it sets up for OHKOs on the subsequent turn and is still an option, so it's not a total loss.

Miledy has flight and invincibility and performs about the same as Percival here. In Ilia, it's no contest in favor of Miledy against Rutger, and Rutger is never better than her starting from then on because she flies, has 1~2 range, and is nearly invincible.

There's no doubt that Miledy and Percival are better than Rutger when all exist simultaneously, but being one of the few awesome units in earlygame has more value than being one of the comparatively more abundant awesome units in lategame.

Why is Karel still above Yuno?

Edited February 13, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

Miledy and Percival thrash him overall when they're around and Marcus and Dieck existing make Rutger not that overwhelming compared to the rest of your team. Then Zea1337 joins. Rutger gets to be outdone by plenty of units. Percival and Miledy are essentially the best when there.

[-Cynthia-]

Percy and Miledy also > Dieck when they exist (and arguably Miledy also > Lance and Alan due to flight), but you can't really waive away earlygame availability when Dieck/Rutger etc. are particularly good in comparison to the rest of the team early in the game.

[Inui]

I don't overrate availability. And this is coming from a Marcus fanboy. If a unit thoroughly beats another when they are there and they are at least there for a good portion of the game, which Percival and Miledy are, they deserve to be ranked higher. You should probably take into account the extreme length of later chapters compared to early ones. Look at the amount of turns they typically take. Rutger is outdone for quite a lot of turns by mounted units later on.

[Dark Sage]

I vote Lance stays top, but Dieck and Rutger should be above Alan. Alan does have availability, but Dieck has almost equal availability and Rutger has Hard Mode bonuses. Both outperform him around the early game and also do excellently in the Western Isles.

Rutger falls behind slightly in Etruria do to swords and Alan outperforms him in Ilia and both do ok in Sacae. Dieck gets axes and he performs admirably in Etruria and Ilia. He performs as well as Alan in Ilia and I'm not sure about Sacae.

Critique or comment on my post as you wish. I could be wrong.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Dark Sage