Personal Tier List

[Narga_Rocks]

Trick question. You don't. If any unit is being used seriously, you can expect them to get ~1 level per chapter without Bexp (give or take depending on what's going on). In order for Mia to be only 20/2 by this point you would have to have her gain less than a level a chapter and have her get no Bexp what so ever.

Well of course there is no reasonable explanation for a 20/2 Mia in chapter 24. Nor is there a reasonable explanation for giving her an iron blade to attack a wyvern lord in chapter 24 when there is a cheaper and better option with a certain buyable generic weapon. Plus, on HM the last time you can purchase an iron blade is chapter 16, whereas Steel Blades are available in chapter 21 and Silver Swords in 23. Seems to me like the iron blades that may have been purchased back then are nearly broken by now. Even if you are unwilling to spare the expense for silver swords in chapter 23 then buying a stack of the steel blades is certainly a good idea. 700 gold for an 11 mt, 75 hit, 35 use C rank sword? What were they thinking? That's the same uses and hit and cost as steel swords. The only thing that doesn't make these things too good is that on HM you can't buy them until chapter 21. If they were available in chapter 14 like on NM... (not that Mia/Ike would be particularly fast with them in chapter 14, but as soon as they promote it would be cool)

Though why would a wrath/vantaged Mia not want to go against the killer lance guy? If this is the enemy phase, she's probably the best since she has a chance to kill him before he can even attempt to critical her.

Except even giving her 20/7 and Rhys and a steel sword forge with max crit, that's still only (21/2) + 50 + 15 + 9 = ~84 crit. 79% crit, so just 79% (assuming 100% hit, since it is a forge afterall, and she does get +15 hit with Rhys) chance to OHKO. She has 35 hp, 25.6 spd, 15 luck, 13 def at level 20/7. 17 hp for wrath health. I'll throw in Ilyana to cancel out the WTA bonus the guy gets. Mia takes 14 damage, so if we want to avoid the chance of a OHKO without a crit Mia needs 15, 16, or 17 hp. Now, assuming she can pull that off she faces 22% crit and she has 65 to 67 avo. Enemy has 103 + 10 hit, so he has over 40% listed along with 22% crit. She has an 80% chance to face nothing. I'll assume true hit results in 40% hit (don't feel like checking), so 20% chance to face an attack, ~40% to get hit means ~8% chance of death if she has less than 15 hp to start (easily possible). Give her 15 to 17 hp and throw in her chance to be criticaled and that's still 1.76% COD. Which is too high for me if I can just stick Brom or Muarim in the path of that thing and have them take <25 damage on a crit. With that thing's 27mt, 19 def is all that is needed to face 8 damage, which translates to 24 on a crit. I'd rather have 100% chance of life if risking death doesn't give a significant advantage over playing it safe.

[Life]

Quick reply to Narga: She was sitting at 20/6 like the rest of my team (minus Stefan, Tormod and Volke). Everyone promoted at Crimea Marches with Soren and Marcia pulling Master Seals out during the early stages of Day Breaks. And I'm using about 10 units (not going for speed, just doing it for the hell of it) plus Ike. I'm also not the greatest FE player in the universe but I know I was using an Iron Blade for the sake of "Ike had the Steel Blade and was killing with that shit".

It's one thing to assume the greatest player in the world who has his guys maxing out every stat and at 20/20 before the Black Knight takes a dirt nap. I like to assume the everyday player because that's what most people are. If I play through the game many times and have my units at a specific level at a certain chapter, pardon me for assuming that they're at that level every other time that I play the game.

Trick question. You don't. If any unit is being used seriously, you can expect them to get ~1 level per chapter without Bexp (give or take depending on what's going on). In order for Mia to be only 20/2 by this point you would have to have her gain less than a level a chapter and have her get no Bexp what so ever.

Though why would a wrath/vantaged Mia not want to go against the killer lance guy? If this is the enemy phase, she's probably the best since she has a chance to kill him before he can even attempt to critical her.

Let's do the rundown, shall we?

Why Vantage is good on Mia: Allows her to hit first on the enemy stage? Not saying much when she 2RKOs most guys even with a critical. Hell, some of them won't get 2 rounded without a critical. Kinda shitty if you ask me.

Why Wrath is good on Mia: Gives her extra critical. Which is great and all... before you consider that she has to be at half health to do it. 20/5 Mia has 34 HP and 12~13 Def (I'll say 13 because I'm a nice guy). To get Wrath going, she needs 17 HP. 30 Atk is enough to kill her at this stage. Assuming that she's sitting at 20/5 at about The Great Bridge, only 1 guy can one hit her at this point. Using a forged Steel Sword with max Att vs. 34 HP, 18 Def and WTD, Mia has ~27 Att which turns into 9 damage a hit and 27 damage. Yeah, she's dead. So much for Wrath being a bit help even with Vantage.

Obviously this is the extreme case and you can use the "well don't put her in the way" excuse but let's be realistic about this. This is a promoted Wyvern Lord with a Silver Lance in Chapter 23. He's something like level 3 vs. a 20/5 unit. Excuse me for extrapolating but if this is happening on the bridge, she'll have problems in future chapters.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Snowy_One]

First off, allow me to apologize for the delayed response. College midterms are a pain and, for whatever reason, I can not log onto Serenes from the college internet system (I would think it's their firewall, but I can not read Cracked either). And yes, there is such a thing as a unit who can hurt the team, but it would have to be pretty unique in circumstances (and not found in this game). If a unit was weak enough so that they were unable to kill a foe without using a Devil axe, then they would have the potential to be a negative since the DA has the potential to hurt the user (I even saw a video where Hector suicided when a DA crit backfired on him O.o).

Severlan, your argument (correct me if I am wrong) is that Reyson will never canto a unit who hurts the team because either A) Reyson's cantoing will make that unit give a positive utility or B) the player would refuse to perform such an action. Allow me to dismiss B right now. The player, while he will always do what he sees as being 'positive', will not always do what is 'truly' positive. They are different things. A suicidal person does not see suicide as a downside, but rather views that death is better than life. Similarly, while a unit may hurt the team if it were canto'ed (horribly so though) the fact that the player sees it as a positive does not change the 'truth' of it's negativity. Therefore, just because the player sees the action as a positive does not mean that it is.

In notion A though, unless I am misunderstanding it, Reyson receives credit for the action that could not be performed. Therefore, if a unit had negative utility and Reyson canto'ed it... it would still have negative utility because it was Reyson and not the unit that received the credit! Assuming you did not mean this, but rather that both units receive the same credit, just that the only credit Reyson gets is that of the units, I still do not see how this would make them a positive. At least, I can see a unit who is good enough in combat, but not terribly good overall (Rolf) making it a positive. But I do not see it happening automatically.

@ Captain: Yes. Because every enemy is a wyvern lord in the game and after chapter 17 there will never be another chapter in the entire game where the main enemy is not wyverns. Right? /sarcasm

[Narga_Rocks]

Quick reply to Narga: She was sitting at 20/6 like the rest of my team (minus Stefan, Tormod and Volke). Everyone promoted at Crimea Marches with Soren and Marcia pulling Master Seals out during the early stages of Day Breaks. And I'm using about 10 units (not going for speed, just doing it for the hell of it) plus Ike. I'm also not the greatest FE player in the universe but I know I was using an Iron Blade for the sake of "Ike had the Steel Blade and was killing with that shit".

It's one thing to assume the greatest player in the world who has his guys maxing out every stat and at 20/20 before the Black Knight takes a dirt nap. I like to assume the everyday player because that's what most people are. If I play through the game many times and have my units at a specific level at a certain chapter, pardon me for assuming that they're at that level every other time that I play the game.

I like to assume that the player is smart enough to plan ahead and buy stuff that will be helpful for the characters they are using. Considering you could buy 10 steel blades in chapter 21 and 5 silver swords in chapter 23 if you really wanted (or more depending on your funds), there is no excuse for having Mia wandering around with an iron blade in chapter 24.

Let's do the rundown, shall we?

Why Vantage is good on Mia: Allows her to hit first on the enemy stage? Not saying much when she 2RKOs most guys even with a critical. Hell, some of them won't get 2 rounded without a critical. Kinda shitty if you ask me.

Why Wrath is good on Mia: Gives her extra critical. Which is great and all... before you consider that she has to be at half health to do it. 20/5 Mia has 34 HP and 12~13 Def (I'll say 13 because I'm a nice guy). To get Wrath going, she needs 17 HP. 30 Atk is enough to kill her at this stage. Assuming that she's sitting at 20/5 at about The Great Bridge, only 1 guy can one hit her at this point. Using a forged Steel Sword with max Att vs. 34 HP, 18 Def and WTD, Mia has ~27 Att which turns into 9 damage a hit and 27 damage. Yeah, she's dead. So much for Wrath being a bit help even with Vantage.

Obviously this is the extreme case and you can use the "well don't put her in the way" excuse but let's be realistic about this. This is a promoted Wyvern Lord with a Silver Lance in Chapter 23. He's something like level 3 vs. a 20/5 unit. Excuse me for extrapolating but if this is happening on the bridge, she'll have problems in future chapters.

Now if only you were actually right about her 2RKOing with a crit. Considering she should be 3HKOing everything but generals and wyverns and probably tigers (and I've shown how she can easily 3HKO even the wyverns) I take great issue with your silly little claim that she's not KOing "most guys" with a crit. Have you even gone to the topic on this site to look at what mt values are needed to 3HKO most of the loser enemies in this game and compared it to what level and weapons Mia needs to 3HKO? Heck, you claim 2RKO with a crit so that's 5HKO given she (nearly) always doubles. Considering most of the stuff in this game is 3HKOd by her, I have to wonder what stats you are looking at to think she is 5HKOing.

[Original Alear]

Severlan, your argument (correct me if I am wrong) is that Reyson will never canto a unit who hurts the team because either A) Reyson's cantoing will make that unit give a positive utility or B) the player would refuse to perform such an action. Allow me to dismiss B right now. The player, while he will always do what he sees as being 'positive', will not always do what is 'truly' positive. They are different things. A suicidal person does not see suicide as a downside, but rather views that death is better than life. Similarly, while a unit may hurt the team if it were canto'ed (horribly so though) the fact that the player sees it as a positive does not change the 'truth' of it's negativity. Therefore, just because the player sees the action as a positive does not mean that it is.

Is this an evaluation of units or players? I believe it is an evaluation of units.

Tier lists define at least to some extent what the player is attempting to maximize. Although you state that minimum turncount, minimum resources etc is not your goal, you do seem to agree that less turns is better than greater turns, etc. From that point on, we are talking about players who have at least relatively similar goals. A suicidal person is not a good analogy for discussing player decisions on your tier list. Where does your tier list assign the death of a player controlled unit any positive value? I recognize subjectivity of values. However, once those values are defined, there is little point in talking about a player who actively pursues other objectives that are antithetical to the objectives set out.

Tier lists are not about debating what the best priorities when playing a game are. Tier lists about setting priorities, and then figuring out the best ways to fulfill those priorities.

You may argue that any unit action may have positive or negative consequences based on what actually happens (little is predetermined since there are many things with a less than 100% and greater than 0% chance of happening).

EDIT-That's how I see it anyway. I actually really don't think that players frequently make decisions in battle which result in negative utility. We probably often make decisiosn which do not maximize utility (either expected or actual) but that is not the same as making actions which make the completion of the chapter more difficult, cost more in resources than they provide, etc etc.

Edited March 11, 2010 by SeverIan

[Life]

Hope you're doing OK on your midterms, Snowy. I feel your pain as I just had back to back Physics and Calculus midterms. Harsh...

@ Captain: Yes. Because every enemy is a wyvern lord in the game and after chapter 17 there will never be another chapter in the entire game where the main enemy is not wyverns. Right? /sarcasm

I'm not asking for sarcasm in return. I'm simply pointing out that Mia is not perfect with Vantage+Wrath. She does not have unbeatable Avo and she's facing WTD against most Wyvern Lords and Paladins (most of the Paladins actually hold lances or swords in the late game). You putting down my point with a wave of your hand (which is equivalent to "so fucking what?") is a bit insulting. At least Narga put forth a proper response.

I like to assume that the player is smart enough to plan ahead and buy stuff that will be helpful for the characters they are using. Considering you could buy 10 steel blades in chapter 21 and 5 silver swords in chapter 23 if you really wanted (or more depending on your funds), there is no excuse for having Mia wandering around with an iron blade in chapter 24.

This is just my game. I don't hoard weapons. In fact, I usually run out and clean out my convey. Happens in FE7 and happens here. So don't go patronizing me on cleaning out the armoury every single chapter. As Interceptor once said, I am God and I can do whatever the fuck I want. If I want Mia to fight with a Slim Sword for the entire game, there is nothing you can say to make me change my mind. She'll suck but in the end it hurts me, not her. But it doesn't matter because I decreed that she "suck" in my run.

But in response to the Steel Blade comment, I'm assuming with my proper calculations that Mia is using a fully forged Steel Sword. Steel Blade has 11 Mt and 17 Wt. Forged Steel Sword is 13 Mt and 12 Wt (no reason to spend money on the Wt as she doesn't lose AS from it). So I'm pretty sure that Mia shouldn't be wandering around with a Steel Blade in Chapter 24 either.

As for a forged Silver Sword, they're kinda expensive. As in an 18 Mt Silver will cost at least 5974G. That's a shitload for a sword considering that this won't be Mia's first forge (she gets one earlygame for much easier killing). Adding 9 Crit to this sword balloons the cost to 18208G because that's gives Mia kills. Am I about to spend more than 18k on this woman? Hell no.

Oh and did I mention that a regular Silver Sword also has 13 Mt? Isn't that the same as a forged Steel Sword? I can forge a Steel Sword from Training onwards. I can't buy a Silver Sword until The Great Bridge. That's a 9 chapter (including Day Breaks difference). I see a Steel Sword forge, not a Silver Sword.

Now if only you were actually right about her 2RKOing with a crit. Considering she should be 3HKOing everything but generals and wyverns and probably tigers (and I've shown how she can easily 3HKO even the wyverns) I take great issue with your silly little claim that she's not KOing "most guys" with a crit. Have you even gone to the topic on this site to look at what mt values are needed to 3HKO most of the loser enemies in this game and compared it to what level and weapons Mia needs to 3HKO? Heck, you claim 2RKO with a crit so that's 5HKO given she (nearly) always doubles. Considering most of the stuff in this game is 3HKOd by her, I have to wonder what stats you are looking at to think she is 5HKOing.

I think my data above about forged Steel Swords (which is what I was referring to in my proper argument with actual numbers) says otherwise. And Narga, I'm hurt. You think that I'm purposely skimping out when I look at this site? Do you really think that little of me? I'm just pointing out that Mia should not be considered an auto-lock for Wrath because it doesn't make her invincible. If she truly can 3HKO most enemies after considering that her Att is only sitting at about 27, then why do some enemies survive? She's in 2HKO territory at this point.

Look. The Wyvern Lord case was brought as me trying to show that not only does Mia not kill everything available, she even gets killed in return if that specific enemy survives. Since that is one enemy in the entire chapter, obviously I'm not dumb enough (or I like to think that I'm not that stupid) to argue her position down based on it. What I'm trying to say is that if enemies survive Mia's assault, they can kill her. Let me show you some examples from the same chapter.

2x Paladin lv 6 (steel bow, 1 steel sword, 1 steel lance)

36 hp, 24 atk, 15 AS, 97 hit, 35 avo, 16 def, 11 res, 5 crit, 5 cev

She does 30 damage with a Crit on the Lance and 33 with a Crit on the Sword. Both survive. Lance does 13 damage on her and dies on her second shot. Sword does 9 damage and kills her before her second attack since she was sitting with 17 HP in the beginning.

I hope that my point is now clear and goes under proper consideration. Thanks.

EDIT: The whole paragraph about "I am God" isn't meant to be replied to. That's me saying that when I play, I can do what I want and you have no say in it. When I brought personal experience, I mentioned that it was specifically happening to me. I have seen with my eyes a 3 damage crit by Mia. Does it happen under perfect circumstances? Fuck no. But I sure as hell don't play perfectly and I'm proud of it.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Anouleth]

I think my data above about forged Steel Swords (which is what I was referring to in my proper argument with actual numbers) says otherwise. And Narga, I'm hurt. You think that I'm purposely skimping out when I look at this site? Do you really think that little of me? I'm just pointing out that Mia should not be considered an auto-lock for Wrath because it doesn't make her invincible. If she truly can 3HKO most enemies after considering that her Att is only sitting at about 27, then why do some enemies survive? She's in 2HKO territory at this point.

You took a Paladin as an example, and Mia needs 29 attack to reliably OHKO it with a crit. How can she get this 29 attack? Well, with a Steel forge, which has 13 mt, she'd need 16 strength, which she gets around 20/07. If Mia isn't 20/07 by Chapter 23, I have to question how much you're using her and whether you're giving her BEXP. Or she can be 20/05 and use a Steel Blade if she has A Rhys. She could even be 19 unpromoted with a +5 Steel forge if she had A Rhys/B Ilyana.

So even if she's very underlevelled, she can get away with it if she's properly supported. My point is that her attack woes are being blown a bit out of proportion here, when there are ways to fix it.

[Rewjeo]

What is a unit doing that's negative after you vigor them? Are you dropping all their weapons and throwing them into a pit of insanely powerful enemies with the intent of them dying? They're going to go damage an enemy or kill one or trade with someone so that they're using better weapons for enemy phase. There is no reason for the player to actually vigor a unit and then do something that'll hurt them.

[Life]

Point well taken.

[Snowy_One]

Severlan, I believe this is one place in which you are wrong. While we can indeed agree that there is a goal for a tier list, we can not agree that a player will always perform a option that will allow for non-negative utility on a negative utility tier. For example, what if the person created a tier list based on how easy it was to suicide the characters (and yet somehow still beat the game)? While doing something such as sending Ilyana out unprotected may be a positive to that tier, not a single serious player would claim that it was 'positive utility' (I would think even smash would agree that that is a bad idea). Just because the player does not see it as a negative or just because the tier list is lax on such moves does not make them any less bad moves. Bad moves that Reyson allowed them to perform.

This is why I feel Reyson should get no credit for the work of other units and, instead, should just get it for the fact that he canto's and nothing else. While it is true that there is no unit in-game (aside from the very narrow definition of devil-axe using units... and I guess any unit who forces Michaiah to heal with sacrifice would count as well) that truly is so bad as to hurt the team, the simple fact is that by claiming that Reyson, or any dancer, is 'worth' the sum of the units he refreshes is a bad notion that exists only because people seem to assume that the dancer will always/only refresh those units who are good/godly and never those units who are less than ideal (a similar problem exists in the American Constitution since the founding fathers had a aweful lot of faith in Washington). Because of this, a heron, or any dancer, has a value that is in flux and, depending on the tier list, may even be a negative.

@ life: I'm sorry for acting rude earlier. My point was that, even assuming you were telling the truth and Mia failed to 1RKO the wyverns even with a critical, the simple truth is that not every enemy is a wyvern in the game. I might as well be complaining that Boyd cannot 1RKO the dragons and saying he's aweful because of it while Ilyana can and therefore is a goddess. I'm sure you can spot the flaw with that logic (aside from the fact that Boyd may or may not be able to 1RKO them. Don't know, don't care, not the point). Namely that, even if it's true, dragons make up only a small portion of the in-game enemies. Sure, wyverns are more populace than dragons, but they still make up only a small portion of the enemies. Not that it matters since Narga showed that she can 1RKO them.

[Life]

@ life: I'm sorry for acting rude earlier. My point was that, even assuming you were telling the truth and Mia failed to 1RKO the wyverns even with a critical, the simple truth is that not every enemy is a wyvern in the game. I might as well be complaining that Boyd cannot 1RKO the dragons and saying he's aweful because of it while Ilyana can and therefore is a goddess. I'm sure you can spot the flaw with that logic (aside from the fact that Boyd may or may not be able to 1RKO them. Don't know, don't care, not the point). Namely that, even if it's true, dragons make up only a small portion of the in-game enemies. Sure, wyverns are more populace than dragons, but they still make up only a small portion of the enemies. Not that it matters since Narga showed that she can 1RKO them.

At least no sarcasm here.

But you're still missing my point. I don't care if Mia ORKOs or 2RKOs wyverns. My concern is that with her at 1/2 HP, she can't OHKO specific enemies which can allow her to die before she gets her second hit in. And that's problematic. Plus she has no 2 range which means most 1~2 range weapon guys are going for her.

[dondon151]

Because of this, a heron, or any dancer, has a value that is in flux and, depending on the tier list, may even be a negative.

I've already explained why this is wrong. I'm not going to do it again.

[Narga_Rocks]

I've already explained why this is wrong. I'm not going to do it again.

It should be pretty obvious, I agree. The player shouldn't be stupid enough to send Reyson in danger in an attempt to vigor, so that's out. Then, even if you vigor people like Bastian or Ena or Lucia, the lowest three units on the team, they can now attack something extra. This is better than if Reyson didn't exist. One more enemy unit dies, or one more unit has taken damage, or whatever. You can't assume the player randomly sends units that are 2HKOd at 50% hit rates up against 5 enemies at a time, since that would be stupid. You can't argue that Resyon could be negative, simply because anything that a unit will do when vigored will be better than if they could do nothing extra.

If you are willing to argue that Lucia getting vigored is bad because she might commit suicide, then I'd suggest that Marcia and Tanith need to nosedive since the player could randomly set them in the path of multiple snipers, Rhys should be lower mid instead of upper mid, etc etc.

Simply put, once vigored, a unit can now do more than it could before, and that is undeniably positive unless you are willing to stipulate that the player is one of the dumbest people to ever play the game. A bad unit is made better as a result of Reyson's existence. That's not negative.

[nflchamp]

It should be pretty obvious, I agree. The player shouldn't be stupid enough to send Reyson in danger in an attempt to vigor, so that's out. Then, even if you vigor people like Bastian or Ena or Lucia, the lowest three units on the team, they can now attack something extra. This is better than if Reyson didn't exist. One more enemy unit dies, or one more unit has taken damage, or whatever. You can't assume the player randomly sends units that are 2HKOd at 50% hit rates up against 5 enemies at a time, since that would be stupid. You can't argue that Resyon could be negative, simply because anything that a unit will do when vigored will be better than if they could do nothing extra.

If you are willing to argue that Lucia getting vigored is bad because she might commit suicide, then I'd suggest that Marcia and Tanith need to nosedive since the player could randomly set them in the path of multiple snipers, Rhys should be lower mid instead of upper mid, etc etc.

Simply put, once vigored, a unit can now do more than it could before, and that is undeniably positive unless you are willing to stipulate that the player is one of the dumbest people to ever play the game. A bad unit is made better as a result of Reyson's existence. That's not negative.

All of this is true, but it matters little. This list has nothing defining it except the vague 'potential' which has nothing concrete to ground it. I mean, I can't even tell you how important a character's stats are during the game because there is nothing necessarily stopping me from creating a super team early by taking extra time and getting as much EXP as possible. Reyson's stock obviously isn't worth much if I don't actually need him because I have a bunch of units who aren't in risk of dying and my completion speed doesn't matter.

[Life]

You took a Paladin as an example, and Mia needs 29 attack to reliably OHKO it with a crit. How can she get this 29 attack? Well, with a Steel forge, which has 13 mt, she'd need 16 strength, which she gets around 20/07. If Mia isn't 20/07 by Chapter 23, I have to question how much you're using her and whether you're giving her BEXP. Or she can be 20/05 and use a Steel Blade if she has A Rhys. She could even be 19 unpromoted with a +5 Steel forge if she had A Rhys/B Ilyana.

So even if she's very underlevelled, she can get away with it if she's properly supported. My point is that her attack woes are being blown a bit out of proportion here, when there are ways to fix it.

I originally said that this point was correct... Until I realized what both of us missed from my example. Quite a lot, actually.

1. Both Paladins hold Steel Bows. Mia has no 1~2 range as Mist/Tanith/Marcia is getting the Sonic Sword (probably Mist but it just goes to show that Mia won't touch it). She also has 12~13 Def (+1 for B Ilyana) right now with 17 HP vs. 24 Att. She's dead with Wrath doing nothing to save her. How many resources do I need to feed her to make her survive? Not even a Dragonshield is going to ensure that she lives through this, not to mention the ballista and stone thrower.

2. A Rhys is impossible right now. Just pointing it out. B Rhys/B Ilyana is possible but it's only 3+ Att instead of 4+. Minor point but still should get pointed out.

3. What is with everyone assuming 20/20 by the end of this game and other ridiculous levels during the course of the game? 20/15 should be the proper endgame level, even after BExp. Am I seriously the only one who promotes guys at the end of Day Breaks or during Crimea Marches? Because this idea seems foreign to everyone else. I've beaten this game around 15 times, half of them on Hard Mode. I'd like to think that I know how to play this game by now. /end small rant

I just can't see Mia beating Nephenee at the Wrath+Vantage combo. Mia's better with Wrath+Resolve as Resolve gives her 1.5x her Spd which turns her into a proper dodge tank.

[nflchamp]

3. What is with everyone assuming 20/20 by the end of this game and other ridiculous levels during the course of the game? 20/15 should be the proper endgame level, even after BExp. Am I seriously the only one who promotes guys at the end of Day Breaks or during Crimea Marches? Because this idea seems foreign to everyone else. I've beaten this game around 15 times, half of them on Hard Mode. I'd like to think that I know how to play this game by now. /end small rant

3) It is assumed all characters will either reach 20/20 or end up close enough to it/not be statistically dependent so it won't matter.

[Life]

Well, that's just me not reading...

Except that it isn't possible under normal circumstances. What are we using, a 4 man team? I only got Ike to 20/20 just in time for Ashnard by soloing the entire northern room of Chapter 27. And he still walked out of Chapter 28 at 20/19, ahead of the rest of the team by 5 levels.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, that's just me not reading...

Except that it isn't possible under normal circumstances. What are we using, a 4 man team? I only got Ike to 20/20 just in time for Ashnard by soloing the entire northern room of Chapter 27. And he still walked out of Chapter 28 at 20/19, ahead of the rest of the team by 5 levels.

Teamsize? I used a decent sized team and don't think I abused anything. My main team was over 20/17. I actually did a transfer on HM and I don't think my turncount was bad. I got Rhys and Elincia to 20/20 only because of staff insanity in the last chapter with all the various sleep and silence staves I'd stolen plus burning through fortify 4 times and Ashera staff twice (thank you hamemrne). But the other 6 units got to 20/20 legitimately (Mia and Ike before the last chapter started, Mist was nearly 20/20 to start and after killing like 4 enemies she hit 20/20). And I had quite a few units over 20/10. If I had focused on a team of 8 to 10 rather than raised 12 or so to differing heights, I see no reason why I wouldn't have reached at least 20/18 on all ~9.

[Snowy_One]

1. Both Paladins hold Steel Bows. Mia has no 1~2 range as Mist/Tanith/Marcia is getting the Sonic Sword (probably Mist but it just goes to show that Mia won't touch it).

Why not? Mia can get a very solid MAG score with either the bands or dusts and her attack supports and the only combination of characters that would prevent her from getting at least one of those is Tormod/Calill. Not even the other SM can perform as well since they can't get the proper supports or enough MAG. When using the SS, Mia has enough MT to kill with a critical hit, something she will do 70%+ of each attack when wrathed (and 20%+ unwrathed) depending on luck/Skill. Mia needs no special training to use the SS, unlike Mist who either needs the scrolls (which others can want, especially if a Paladin wants to use silver weapons ASAP or something similar) or needs special babying. Marcia's magic score is too low for her to kill even with a critical hit (1-2 less base magic, weaker attack supports, and no critical), and Tanith can only be competition if she gets the dusts as the band is too low for her. If we were to assume attack power was the only stat in determining who gets the SS, than out of these four it would be Mist > Mia > Tanith > Marcia. Of those four, Mia is the only one with a critical score to even mention so for critical Mia > everyone else. In terms of training to get the sword it would be Mia (no work, just equip band or use dusts)> Tanith (no work, must use dusts) > Mist (work or scrolls) with Marcia being either above Mia or Mist (can't remember if she can train swords while unpromoted. Wow. It's been that long since I last used her O.o).

The only reason Mist is even in the running is because, in the event she does get it, she can deal some impressive offense for all 12 kills until she needs to Hammerine or it breaks (48 kills total I would assume). Assuming Mia got that same treatment and only used it while wrathed, she would have an approximate 64 kills. Even if Mia was never wrathed she could net a decent 12 criticals, making her the second best choice for the sword (since she has more MT than either Tanith or Marcia with the thing, she would beat them anyways).

3. What is with everyone assuming 20/20 by the end of this game and other ridiculous levels during the course of the game?

Between Bexp, having staff-users get as much Sexp as possible, and generally trying to play wisely for EXP I have found most my units hitting 20/20 a chapter or two before the end on a full team of 14.

I just can't see Mia beating Nephenee at the Wrath+Vantage combo. Mia's better with Wrath+Resolve as Resolve gives her 1.5x her Spd which turns her into a proper dodge tank.

Why does Mia need to 'beat' Nephnee? Mia needs wrath to get the combo to work, and Nephenee needs vantage. Both of them can have it at the exact same time without any problems. Unless you are removing Mia's vantage or Neph's wrath for some reason there is no reason they should be competing for the title of who's best with the combo. We don't say 'well because Astrid can't bear Oscar as a paladin we should never field her'.

As for Resolve... Anyone is good with resolve except MAYBE... MAYBE... Gatrie (even then I would have to see some serious numbers to believe it). Sides, it only exists for two chapters and, if you are interested in minimum turn counts, is going to Ike anyways.

I mean, I can't even tell you how important a character's stats are during the game because there is nothing necessarily stopping me from creating a super team early by taking extra time and getting as much EXP as possible.

I believe that, in the OP, I stated that it was okay to go over the turn count so long as not going for extra turns meant passing up Cexp or some form of valued item. I think that's an effective stop to forming a 'superteam'. In general though, I would not consider boss abuse or any similar form of abuse valid. As for the importance of stats, I do think they are important, but I do not believe that there is any one godsend stat, stat focus, item, skill, or something similar that should be considered so OMGWTF important as to override every aspect of the tier. While I consider move important, I'm not going to vault units up or down for having/lacking it (no. Not in the sense of 'well I don't care if you're a fighter lacking STR, everyone wins here!' I mean in the sense of 'OMG this unit lacks 1 movement and thusly is going to cause the entire team to slow down if he's fielded! That means I fail to make some absurdly low turn count for this chapter even though I'm six turns under the limit! Because of that, fire and brimstone will rain down from the sky as Daienish soldiers override Crimea! Petrine will force herself upon Elincia while Ike's head is hoisted upon a standard and Ashnard slaughters Laguz by the dozens! ALL BECAUSE ONE UNIT LACKED ONE MOVE! OMGWTFBBQHAX!), same with any one other stat, skill, or anything else.

Anywho, back to Reyson.

I understand your point. Please try to understand mine. There may be no such thing as a unit who has true negative utility in FE... But that does not stop my complaint about dancers from being less true. My point was that if we were to assume a dancers value was either worth the 'move that couldn't be done' or whatever, than if a unit did come along that was somehow bad enough to hurt the entire team, would the dancer suddenly become a negative. It seems you have given a resounding answer of 'no'. This has lead me to a conclusion. That a dancer is not worth the value of the unit it canto's, the value of the extra move, or whatever else. If it were, than not only would a unit who was bad enough to be a negative make the dancer a negative, but even if there were no units that were a negative, the dancer would be only as of much worth as the unit it canto's (ergo: it would fluxuate based on the unit it canto's and couldn't be tiered).

So which is it? If a Heron or any dancer gets their value from the unit(s) that they refresh, than they are too much in flux to be properly tiered and may even become a negative simply because of the team composition.

If there is something concrete, which is what seems to be hinted at, than what is it worth?

[Colonel M]

Why are you even using the Sonic Sword for such a duty? Sonic Sword should be only used for two reasons:

- If you're Mist, you can use it from time to time when forged Steel Sword isn't enough.

- If you desperately need to down Wyverns from a distance.

Wasting a resource just to kill random scrubs doesn't mean that it's the most optimal use of it. Using it so Mia can counterattack at 2 range seems like a waste to me.

[uzy5o]

Wasting a resource just to kill random scrubs doesn't mean that it's the most optimal use of it.

That goes for Mist as well. She needs the sonic sword to kill anything that's not a mage.

[Life]

The one thing I find so stupid that I must comment on now.

Why not? Mia can get a very solid MAG score with either the bands or dusts...

Please tell me you're kidding... Watch this.

Astrid at 20/20 has 11.6 Mag. Oscar at 20/20 has 10.2 Mag. Mia by comparison has 11.9 Mag. Give Oscar and Astrid swords after promotion and they have as much of a shot at the Sonic Sword as Mia if you give them the same amount of levels with the Mage Band and Spirit Dusts. WHO FUCKING USES ASTRID AND OSCAR FOR THE SONIC SWORD?! NOBODY!

C'mon, you have got to be smarter than that. I'm getting a stench of your love for Mia with that one statement. And it's not taken out of context when it's the first line of the entire paragraph. If Mia gets a claim on the Sonic Sword, then so do Tanith, Mist (who should get it thanks to her 26 Mag), Oscar, Astrid and Elincia, just to name a few. Oh and Tauroneo and Lucia should get a taste of it too, thanks to their base 11 and 12 Mag before the Spirit Dusts and Mage Band. Let's be reasonable here.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[Narga_Rocks]

The one thing I find so stupid that I must comment on now.

Please tell me you're kidding... Watch this.

Astrid at 20/20 has 11.6 Mag. Oscar at 20/20 has 10.2 Mag. Mia by comparison has 11.9 Mag. Give Oscar and Astrid swords after promotion and they have as much of a shot at the Sonic Sword as Mia if you give them the same amount of levels with the Mage Band and Spirit Dusts. WHO FUCKING USES ASTRID AND OSCAR FOR THE SONIC SWORD?! NOBODY!

C'mon, you have got to be smarter than that. I'm getting a stench of your love for Mia with that one statement. And it's not taken out of context when it's the first line of the entire paragraph. If Mia gets a claim on the Sonic Sword, then so do Tanith, Mist (who should get it thanks to her 26 Mag), Oscar, Astrid and Elincia, just to name a few. Oh and Tauroneo and Lucia should get a taste of it too, thanks to their base 11 and 12 Mag before the Spirit Dusts and Mage Band. Let's be reasonable here.

You did notice he said to give her the mage band, right? Now, questions about why we'd go and do that aside, it would mean that if she got 20 of her levels with the thing she'd get a whole 2 points more, so at 20/10, for example, she has 10.9, so probably 11. Now, that's kinda bad since I'm thinking that 21 mt, even with magic, isn't ORKOing all that much. Of course, I don't feel like checking and I could be too used to high res values in RD.

Anyway, why would you give anything but Axes to Astrid, and axes to Oscar? Okay, maybe bows to Oscar. But you'd have to be raising Rolf and get him promoted by chapter 19.

Now, although I'd be willing to let Mia swing around the Sonic Sword for a bit if I'm not raising Mist, it's not really anything I'd rely on. Especially if she's getting OHKOd at wrath health and I'm hoping for some 80% crit to save her. I'll say it again: I really wish they hadn't changed the way affinities worked for fe9. I'm happy enough with the way they work in RD, but in PoR imagine Mia with A FirexFire. Fun times with +3 mt, +15 hit, +15 crit, +15 avo. GBA Light isn't quite as good for her, but still an improvement over PoR Light (Ilyana). Plus she's getting +1mt, +5hit, +5crit, +5avo out of her own half of the B Ilyana anyway. Throw in a nice +30 crit from promotion like in fe6 and you've got a legitimate destructive force with a Sonic Sword. 100% crit rate, and a crit with even just 19 magic mt will OHKO most things for a while I should think.

Anyway, back to the real Mia. Tanith can use Flame Lance better than anyone (I think? Anyway, she has an alternative to Sonic Sword, and that's not even getting into forged javelins). Mist has a serious cost just to reach promotion, let alone the B swords. Elincia shows up way late and it's probably best to just healbot with her having Amiti equipped to raise def/res to less bad levels. Taur and Lucia are out since they don't get much out of the mage band and he already said that part of the value of Mia was she doesn't need a dust (which I question anyway, but oh well). Lucia also (I think) manages less durability than Mia and lacks Vantage anyway. Tauroneo doesn't double as much and is strong enough to get good use out of forged hand axes or something. Really, Mia is pretty high up there in terms of Sonic Sword users. I just don't see it as improving her case as much as Snowy does, though.

[Anouleth]

Mia can probably get Sonic Sword if she really wants, but whether she can actually do much with it is questionable. Since Snowy is clearly talking about dumping her into a cluster of enemies with Vantage + Wrath + SS, I can't imagine it's 25 uses lasting more than a chapter or two, so while she can walk into a room and kill everyone on Enemy Phase, she's only doing it once or twice.

I'd rather give the SS to Tanith or something so they can snipe Wyvern Lords, which they otherwise have issues with. I don't particularly like the idea of giving Spirit Dusts away just so Mia can have her 25 uses. Even characters like Ilyana and Soren with naturally high magic do more with the Dusts than Mia, even if it's only to the extent of 'not needing forges'.

I understand your point. Please try to understand mine. There may be no such thing as a unit who has true negative utility in FE... But that does not stop my complaint about dancers from being less true. My point was that if we were to assume a dancers value was either worth the 'move that couldn't be done' or whatever, than if a unit did come along that was somehow bad enough to hurt the entire team, would the dancer suddenly become a negative. It seems you have given a resounding answer of 'no'. This has lead me to a conclusion. That a dancer is not worth the value of the unit it canto's, the value of the extra move, or whatever else. If it were, than not only would a unit who was bad enough to be a negative make the dancer a negative, but even if there were no units that were a negative, the dancer would be only as of much worth as the unit it canto's (ergo: it would fluxuate based on the unit it canto's and couldn't be tiered).

Reyson always has the option to Vigor Ike, so I fail to see how you might count him as a negative.

[Colonel M]

That goes for Mist as well. She needs the sonic sword to kill anything that's not a mage.

Attacking is not the only job for Mist. There's this thing that gets sorely missed called "healing". I'm also well aware of Mists's B Sword problem, which is why there's still Manith to use the weapon as well (probably better in most instances than Mia).