Gatrie Vs. Oswin

[nabvfgsyeahuwdefgfue7huiwr]

Yep...I voted for who I thought was more useful, not who is the strongest one, even if it means taking down armours and like all the enemies in the map. Now, why would you even do that with Gatrie when his usefulness would fully exist on taking out those thrash cans?

I feel Oswin helps you out more for being a wall, Mov shouldn't prove to be too much of a problem, I mean, it's not exactly stoping him from being high on tiers.

Did you actually just agree with something I said? No doubt, both can solo maps effectively.

[Junkhead]

Not sure if I did, sorry, I thought you were going at in the first place was that Gatrie was good because of his ridiculous Spd.

[Killer Poleax]

RD Gatrie! his blue armor is better than Oswin's orange armor :D

[nabvfgsyeahuwdefgfue7huiwr]

Not sure if I did, sorry, I thought you were going at in the first place was that Gatrie was good because of his ridiculous Spd.

Gatrie obviously does have better speed because of his 3rd tier, but they both end up doubling around the same amount of enemies, due to the difference in enemy stats.

[Rewjeo]

Maybe at the end of the game, but Oswin never doubles everything he comes against, but Gatrie does (barring SMs)

[dondon151]

Oswin doesn't really have trouble doubling enemies in FE7. Only before he promotes. Which, coincidentally, is the same problem that Gatrie has.

[Rewjeo]

But, then, everyone doubles everything in FE7, and, IIRC, Oswin won't promote as quickly as Gatrie.

[Colonel M]

But, then, everyone doubles everything in FE7, and, IIRC, Oswin won't promote as quickly as Gatrie.

Not necessarily true.

Remember that, in comparison, Oswin has Chapter 12 - Endgame. Gatrie has most of Part 3, 2 chapters of Part 4, and possibly Endgame. That's 14 chapters, not including Endgame in this comparison as Gatrie is a rather poor choice for this stage of the game. Oswin has ~double of that. Oswin has up to 30 Chapters as to where he can participate. That would mean if Gatrie promotes after 3-3, which would be 4 chapters, you could say that Oswin promotes just as quickly in correlation to the entire game. Oswin can, usually, promote around Pirate Ship if you favor him. The problem? It's not so much his AS (he can actually double some enemies in FE7), it's more along his Movement that kills him. 5 Mov in comparison to mounts who have 7-8 is pretty bad. Then consider that he is pretty hard to carry (16 Con can be lifted only by certain unpromoted units such as Sain and Kent). Only mounted Eliwood and IIRC Rath can carry Oswin around in the battlefield. Nothing great, is it?

Both are great, but I'd probably give more weight to Gatrie if only because he can stand to be a powerful offensive and defensive unit when everyone else within the team is borderline. The team improves later on, but so does Gatrie. Oswin is awesome earlygame, rightfully so, but having a Movement disadvantage on top of not having units that can realistically carry you sucks. Gatrie has Haar Airlines<tm> to ferry Gatrie around. Haar doesn't give two shits about it either since they can both pwn face along the way, then we have Savior so that Haar is the only unit that is necessary for the wardrop (which means Haar can carry Gatrie for an Enemy Phase, or 2 turns).

[dondon151]

Oswin also has a grand total of 28 chapters to Gatrie's ~14.

Edited April 23, 2010 by dondon151

[Inui]

Oswin doesn't really have trouble doubling enemies in FE7. Only before he promotes. Which, coincidentally, is the same problem that Gatrie has.

qft

Oswin doubles pretty well all the time for me because enemies in FE 7 are so insanely slow.

Also, he's a very very very good choice for a Speedwing.

[dondon151]

Speedwings come very late, though.

[Junkhead]

Yes, defeneatly the best candidate for a Speedwings, I mean, you also have Dorcas, but why would you want it on him when he gets no Spd bonus and his Spd fails to grow?

He will actually double many enemies at the pirate ship, most that aren't mercs/myrmidons, he can double peggies that get weighted down by steel lances and javelins as well as shamans, who constitute most of the enemies by the way.

[nabvfgsyeahuwdefgfue7huiwr]

Oswin doubles pretty well all the time for me because enemies in FE 7 are so insanely slow.

Also, he's a very very very good choice for a Speedwing.

Or two!

Maybe at the end of the game, but Oswin never doubles everything he comes against, but Gatrie does (barring SMs)

Many would disagree with you, myself included.

5 Mov in comparison to mounts who have 7-8 is pretty bad. Then consider that he is pretty hard to carry (16 Con can be lifted only by certain unpromoted units such as Sain and Kent). Only mounted Eliwood and IIRC Rath can carry Oswin around in the battlefield. Nothing great, is it?

His move is a problem. That same 16 con allows him to wield a Rex Hasta or Brave Lance without AS loss.

Edited April 23, 2010 by FireEmblemReignsSupreme

[Colonel M]

His move is a problem. That same 16 con allows him to wield a Rex Hasta or Brave Lance without AS loss.

Brave Lance also has 14 Wt, so under most circumstances the most AS that the Cavs would lose, after promotion, is 2-3 (2 for Lowen, 3 for Sain, Kent, and Marcus). An example is 20/2 Sain has 15 Spd, so it would be 12 after the Lance. 20/7 Oswin (so I'm being generous level-wise) has 13 Spd. Lowen under Sain's circumstances has 11, but another level nets him the same AS as Sain. So as you can see, being able to wield a weapon without AS loss is not a big deal. Rex Hasta isn't available until Final, and it's practically useless.

Furthermore, it's his Con + his Movement that cause issues. Despite someone like Raven losing to Sain in Movement, I can at least pick up Raven with Sain and Rescue-chain him further. Oswin is stuck moving his terrible 5 Movement constantly. The only good news is, as I said, promoted Eliwood can ferry him. And Rath. I shit you not when I say "that's it". Temporarily he can be ferried by Sain and Kent, but after they promote it's a no-go for Oswin here.

Also, he's a very very very good choice for a Speedwing.

No, he is a very very very bad choice for a Speedwing just because of his gimped Movement. There are far far far better candidates for such a resource. The mounts would be the first volunteers as they give the greatest returns. Why would I give Oswin the Speedwing over some, say, Marcus? Not only does Marcus have roughly the same AS (Marcus likely wins by a point, 2 tops) as Oswin, he also has the extended movement to be able to use it. Even take someone like Lowen, who nearly matches Oswin in concrete durability (41 HP | 16 Def for 20/1 Lowen vs. 44 HP | 22 Def for 20/4 Oswin). Lowen loses, of course, but he also has +3 Movement over Oswin altogether. Even though Lowen has slightly gimped offense as well, it can be solved with a healthy supply of Killers.

I don't hate Ozzy, but the Movement disadvantage is far too much in some instances.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Colonel M

[Junkhead]

Many would disagree with you, myself included.

His move is a problem. That same 16 con allows him to wield a Rex Hasta or Brave Lance without AS loss.

Actually, FE7 maps are smaller than FE10's, and Gatrie only bears 1 more Mov than Oswin does promoted, so they're about equals in that scent.

And him actually not doubling everything is true, but that doesn't mean he doesn't get to double, he gets to double a few enemies for sure.

And Sain is probably a much better choice for a Speedwings, Marcus also sucks at growing Spd.

Even though you get the boots late in FE7...you might as well give them to Oswin, that just about fixes his problem, Ninian is also a good option, but Oswin's the one with the prombem here, not Ninian.

[Colonel M]

Actually, FE7 maps are smaller than FE10's, and Gatrie only bears 1 more Mov than Oswin does promoted, so they're about equals in that scent.

No, there is still a difference. A substantial one at that. The difference between being able to be carried vs. Not being able to be carried is huge. Gatrie can be carried by anything on a mount and, as I said, Haar Airlines. Oswin has choices... Before everyone promotes. After that, Oswin doesn't get such a luxury. The only good news is that Oswin has a couple of maps that don't require hefty movement. Take Cog of Destiny though. Why in Hades would I field Oswin over a mount? Harken? Raven? Even Dorcas, who can likely OHKO like Oswin and still be able to be taken to different parts of the map? You may think it's funny, but Gonzales's Con sucks ass. Promoted, the only units that can ferry his ass is Shin and unpromoted Thany. From what I know at the moment, that's about it.

And Sain is probably a much better choice for a Speedwings, Marcus also sucks at growing Spd.

Not sure if this was directed at me or not, but Ill repsond anyway. Marcus's Spd base isn't as bad as some people rag on it. He's not quick like Sain is after time and effort is put into Sain, but Marcus also needs 0 effort for what you have with him at the moment. I'm not sure if 17 AS doubles anything extra than 14 AS (14 being Marcus with 4 levels + wing). I'd have to seriously look at enemy stats closer. From what I rec"l though, 14 Spd is a decent benchmark until around Victory or Death.

If you're saying Sain is a better candidate for the Speedwing than Oswin, though, I agree on that to some extents. Though I'd likely consider Lowen in case he's missing something.

Even though you get the boots late in FE7...you might as well give them to Oswin, that just about fixes his problem, Ninian is also a good option, but Oswin's the one with the prombem here, not Ninian.

I think I've beat this to death many eons ago, but any foot unit or especially a mount should get the boots before Oswin. Under most circumstances, anyway.

[Junkhead]

But what's so bad about not being able to get carried? The only benefit is saving him from...let's say he's low on HP due to a horde of magic users (We barely get these, and they only come in big around the Drad Isle)

Other than that, he's very, very durable against physical enemies.

Yep, I did say Sain is a better candidate for the Speedwings, mainly because of how much his offense would increase.

Why would another foot unit want the boots anyway? (Aside from Ninian)

There aren't many good options...and we can assume you have some promoted characters by then, whom have +1 Mov than Oswin, and these are foot units.

[Narga_Rocks]

No, there is still a difference. A substantial one at that. The difference between being able to be carried vs. Not being able to be carried is huge. Gatrie can be carried by anything on a mount and, as I said, Haar Airlines. Oswin has choices... Before everyone promotes. After that, Oswin doesn't get such a luxury. The only good news is that Oswin has a couple of maps that don't require hefty movement. Take Cog of Destiny though. Why in Hades would I field Oswin over a mount? Harken? Raven? Even Dorcas, who can likely OHKO like Oswin and still be able to be taken to different parts of the map? You may think it's funny, but Gonzales's Con sucks ass. Promoted, the only units that can ferry his ass is Shin and unpromoted Thany. From what I know at the moment, that's about it.

Actually, if you are including unpromoted Thany, I should probably mention units like unpromoted Alan and Lance and Treck can all carry promoted Gonzales.

But yeah, it would be better if there were two flying units that could carry him and not have bad combat. Because Thany needs to remain unpromoted, there are basically zero flying units that can carry him and not suck.

As for Gatrie, I think Pegs may be unable to carry him, but any wyvern riders (Jill and Haar) and anything on a horse (except perhaps promoted Mist) can all carry him around. Tibarn may even be able to do so, though I forget for certain. But if Oswin can't be carried by much at all, that's a real problem. And there is no saviour in the game so he really needs two units able to carry him. Gatrie only actually needs one, really.

@soul: watch some dondon videos. That should probably show you how amazing rescue chains can be. It may be called "rescue", but it's not about saving a unit from damage, though that can happen on occasion. It is instead about getting a foot unit to go much much farther than it would otherwise be able to go. Mounted units have 7 or 8 move, foots have 4, 5, or 6. It should be obvious that without rescue the foot units get left behind if the mounted ones are good enough. Think Azel in fe4. He'd be so much better if that game had rescuing because you could grab him and bring him up to the front lines so he can kill stuff. Well, aside from axe enemies you'd still probably wish he had thunder or wind earlier for more doubling, but the point is that he'd actually get to the enemies before they all die.

That's what the big deal about con is.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

Even though you get the boots late in FE7...you might as well give them to Oswin, that just about fixes his problem, Ninian is also a good option, but Oswin's the one with the prombem here, not Ninian.

Ninian's movement is as much a problem as Oswin's, if not more of a problem because with Ninian around everyone is moving further. And long-run, I'd rather have 7 move Ninian than 7 move Oswin.

[Junkhead]

@soul: watch some dondon videos. That should probably show you how amazing rescue chains can be. It may be called "rescue", but it's not about saving a unit from damage, though that can happen on occasion. It is instead about getting a foot unit to go much much farther than it would otherwise be able to go. Mounted units have 7 or 8 move, foots have 4, 5, or 6.

I do know it can be used for chains, although I never exactly used that tactic. Maybe I should watch his videos.

[Narga_Rocks]

I do know it can be used for chains, although I never exactly used that tactic. Maybe I should watch his videos.

I don't know the best ones for it, and many are chaining a thief to get stealing done faster and don't really apply to Oswin (it's not like you'd give him a chest key and have him go open stuff).

But I'm sure there has to be some videos where he chains various foot units towards a goal. Like getting Rutger closer to the boss in chapter 8 of fe6 to take it out faster. That type of thing. Not sure of which videos best demonstrate the idea behind ferrying, though.

[Colonel M]

Actually, if you are including unpromoted Thany...

As dumb as this sounds, I almost considered just keeping Thany unpromoted in my 2.0 run. This way, I can carry Gonzales onto Peaks and have him en-mass rape everything in sight! The main reason is putting Gonzales on those peaks. I can suffice with Shin getting him to places if I desperately needed to. Just sucks that Thany would be the only unit that can go across peaks.

It would require Lalum dancing Thany after being rescued though. And maybe Miledy's boots...

Ninian's movement is as much a problem as Oswin's, if not more of a problem because with Ninian around everyone is moving further. And long-run, I'd rather have 7 move Ninian than 7 move Oswin.

With Lalum, I usually ferry her after she's danced someone. Hell, I've even put her under the rescue chains just so she can dance units further ahead next turn. Rescue is such a great tactic, and Lalum makes said tactic infinitely better.

@Narga, I can think of a lot of them that use Rescue like crazy just because many of my chapters did. I think the "best" example might be Chapter 14.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Colonel M

[nabvfgsyeahuwdefgfue7huiwr]

Some units such as Lucius need con, others such as Oswin need speed and mov. Oswin with capped spd from speedwings can actually double other promoted units who lose AS from their pathetic con.

[Super Mecha Death Christ]

RD Gartie, no contest

[nabvfgsyeahuwdefgfue7huiwr]

RD Gartie, no contest

Care to explain why?