LoAF Character Ranking

[Phoenix]

On Luc, Yes. Will add.

On Altion, he's got a personality, though limited in where he uses it. He could drop in this update if someone else should go above him.

[Ansem]

Rita maybe? She's a ditz and Psych presents her as one well. I can see Dani above him too if she has her little angst convo with someone.

[Phoenix]

Dani's not quite active enough just yet, I think. Neither is Altion but I kind of want to see how the characters behave post-ball(right now other characters are more active and have more focus than others, Charlotte, Eric, Damian, etc) before placing anyone in the lower tiers too much higher up.

Rita vs Altion

Maybe. Haven't taken a closer look at it yet. Need more opinions from Sage and Luna.

[Ansem]

Sage is most likely busy preparing a post right now. Probably prior to my earlier post regarding Aiya not interacting enough.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Kai

[Dark Sage]

Meh. Aiya has gotten a little better about Damian. A little. She exists and is consistent. She has more meaningful interactions with more people. Esphyr, Irina, Alf...and yet that's still a lot more than Helios's.

And Altion higher. Not even a debate.

[Ansem]

IMO

AiyaXIrina: Pure BS. Ether knows it is. Its not helping her character at all, its ruining it

AlferisXAiya: From what i gathered, Aiya just bragged some more about Damian and how he can cook. Damian can do everything is what Ether is trying to say. @_@

AiyaXEsphyr: Bull. Aiya is a slut and she knows it. I would never share my girlfriend with another guy, I would beat the other guy up and dump her. Ether would do the same. So Aiya =/=Kai? Well it just proves she isnt sane.

The only one that is close to being meaningful is AiyaXEsphyr. Thats only just Damian speaking through Aiya, nothing else. How the hell are the others "meaningful"?

Edited August 31, 2010 by Kai

[Dark Sage]

Well with Alf, besides that talk, Alf has shown some concern for Aiya and her well being before and I think a little more investigation into that without so much Damian is fine.

Most of the rest of your complaints seem to be more like Fan Dumb for DamianxEsphyr though...The point is she at least exists and is consistent unlike Conrad or Cess. Cess is a much worse tool than Aiya and at least she can fulfill her purpose well, no matter how bad it is. Cess is supposed to be Rita's reigns...and fails hard at it. He's really not much more than an accessory these days.

[-Cynthia-]

I could see Rita up a tier. She's consistent and...interesting in her own way. Yes I know, batshit crazy and all over the place, but being like that all the time is consistency of a sort. Unlike Esphyr, who I'm not sure is supposed to be so intentionally bipolar. Euphoric giggly highs followed by periods of extreme angst. At least we know Rita's supposed to be a crazy ditz, Esphyr just pretends like she isn't one once in a while.

I like Altion's current position.

Luc should go...like between Heinz and Alferis or somewhere abouts. Nice and consistent.

Have to agree somewhat with Kai. Aiya's non-Damian interactions still end up with her talking about Damian a whole lot, or never really go anywhere.

Edited August 31, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Ansem]

Well with Alf, besides that talk, Alf has shown some concern for Aiya and her well being before and I think a little more investigation into that without so much Damian is fine.

I can see the BS in this. Its not Alferis we are debating, its Aiya. What has she shown?

Omigawd was Alferis gonna rape Aiya?

EDIT:

Most of the rest of your complaints seem to be more like Fan Dumb for DamianxEsphyr though...The point is she at least exists and is consistent unlike Conrad or Cess. Cess is a much worse tool than Aiya and at least she can fulfill her purpose well, no matter how bad it is. Cess is supposed to be Rita's reigns...and fails hard at it. He's really not much more than an accessory these days.

Um no. I am just upset about how some of the women are projected in this RP (See HM and Aiya) Again, BS. Is it really that hard to stay on topic?

Edited August 31, 2010 by Kai

[Dark Sage]

Problem with Rita is she repeats the same things over and over, to the point in which you're thinking "nobody can possibly be this stupid, not even Fighter or Ralph Wiggum" like always mistaking Kelas for a boy even when by all logic, she should stop. She tries to rape the other party members and likes swords. And that's pretty much Rita.

She really better than Dani?

@Kai Aiya at least exists unlike Conrad and at least fulfills her purpose, no matter how dumb it is. Bottom tier is what seperates the barely existent, or just decoration characters with no depth, personality, or quirks. And Aiya is not in either categories.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Ansem]

Problem with Rita is she repeats the same things over and over, to the point in which you're thinking "nobody can possibly be this stupid, not even Fighter or Ralph Wiggum" like always mistaking Kelas for a boy even when by all logic, she should stop. She tries to rape the other party members and likes swords. And that's pretty much Rita.

She really better than Dani?

That is a lot you just posted there, easily contradicting she has character. The fact to the matter is that characters like her are easy to emulate. If you hadnt noticed yet, she along with Alferis are the only impulsive ones in this RP, Dani just being trigger happy. And yes, i can see her above Dani ATM.

@Kai Aiya at least exists unlike Conrad and at least fulfills her purpose, no matter how dumb it is. Bottom tier is what seperates the barely existent, or just decoration characters with no depth, personality, or quirks. And Aiya is not in either categories.

She exists for Damian, yes. Nothing else. Arguing Conrad and Aiya is like arguing Nino and Sain, dont do it.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Kai

[Dark Sage]

That's not a contradiciton, that's me posting the few things she does. Those are for the most part, the only things she does. No real meaningful interactions with anyone. That's her problem. Unless Rita does more besides those three things and is more realistically ditzy (a little), she should stay where she is.

[Ansem]

That's not a contradiciton, that's me posting the few things she does. Those are for the most part, the only things she does. No real meaningful interactions with anyone. That's her problem. Unless Rita does more besides those three things and is more realistically ditzy (a little), she should stay where she is.

She does those things well. Meaningful, no but she is being presented as annoying. Pay attention to the topic title, Sage.

She doesnt have to do anymore. She is staying consistent by doing so.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Kai

[Dark Sage]

Let me put it this way.

You know how a character is supposed to be annoying and funny? Let's take Fighter. He has running gags but he has constant new ones to add to keep him fresh. If he just said the same things a hundred zillion times and repeated scenes ad nauseum, he'd still be annoying, but not in a good or cute way, which is the point of Rita. If new stuff is added, she can be consistent and still be annoying, but in the good way.

Helios and Aiya to bottom of Low tier, Helios above Aiya.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Dark Sage

[Phoenix]

And here's the update.

Top

Kelas

Morgan

High

Iso

Charlotte

Tessa

Levski

Viveka

Arrin

Eric

Upper Mid

Derek

Heinz

Luc

Alferis

Reika

Low Mid

Irina

Esphyr

Damian

Danielle

Rita

Chase

Altion

Low

Pary

Helios

Aiya

Bottom

Conrad

Cess

Katie

Mage Sisters

[Snowy_One]

This list is aweful. Just try to tell me that you think it coincidence that the two highest characters are not only the mains of the two women in the RP, but also the mains of two of the list majors. Unless I remember properly, they even said they weren't reading all the posts of certain characters out of dislike for them. This isn't to mention that they are comparing them to their ideal of how they should be played, not how the character is. Esphyr, for example, is ranked in lower mid. Why? Because she's 'bipolar'. She's moody, yes... and there are reasons for it. Her past, Damian, Aiya, and many other factors contribute to her stance on this ball... which has been one of the few times she's actually been terribly moody. Most of her mood swings consist of her getting mad which, since she holds a sword that deals heavily with wrath, is pretty self-explanitory as to why (Lev moodswings are different for reasons that *may* show up if the chance arises). She has reasons for what she does... and she's ranked lower mid? Meanwhile I can't figure out why Kelas is even still with the group (no weapon or purpose to stay) Charlotte seems like she should have left a long time ago (trying to restore a nation and she's with a group that has criminals and mercenaries? The only thing she gains from staying towards her goal is maybe support from Damian and HM, whom she hasn't interacted a lot with at least).

Tier List according to Snowy

High

Tessa

Iso

Levski

Arrin

Eric

Viveka

Upper Mid

Derek

Heinz

Esphyr

Kelas

Luc

Morgan

Low Mid

Irina

Damian

Danielle

Reika

Alferis

Altion

Low

Charlotte

Rita

Chase

Pary

Helios

Aiya

Bottom

Conrad

Cess

[riariadne]

... ahahahah. Morgan is not that low at all. She's consistent, has quirks, and Esphyr above her. Wut. Just... no, Snowy. Everyone's collaborated on the list. Your opinion does not make the whole thing change.

And is it really surprising that people consider the best female characters the ones that are, you know, actually controlled by females? It shouldn't be.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Lightning

[Snowy_One]

It's not that they are the best female characters. They are the best characters and they are controlled by the two female RPers here. And Morgan... honestly is boring. She started off as a port of Morrigan from Dragon Age and, though she's managed to separate herself, is still a aweful lot like her base in terms of personality.

[Snike]

Tier List according to Snowy

High

Tessa

Iso

Levski

Arrin

Eric

Viveka

Upper Mid

Derek

Heinz

Esphyr

Kelas

Luc

Morgan

Low Mid

Irina

Damian

Danielle

Reika

Alferis

Altion

Low

Charlotte

Rita

Chase

Pary

Helios

Aiya

Bottom

Conrad

Cess

Alright, so, of these, I would say the only tier I have no qualm with is Bottom. Now, onto the others. Pary should be above Rita, at the very least, if not a tier up, because while he's a bit of a complete monster, he's easily the best-written of Psych's characters. Charlotte is way too low, since she IS developed considerably, and is NOT prompting those WTF moments the lower tiered characters oh-so love. I recommend her rise.

Lower Mid tier: Problems I see here are Reika and Alferis. They are too damned low, especially with recent development. Above Dani, at least. Altion should go down as well, since he really hasn't done much at all.

Upper Mid tier: So, I see Morgan at the bottom of it, Kelly in the lower half, and Derek on top. WTF

...

Alright, so first off, Kelas is too low. She has to be in top, minimum, considering her development and interactions. Morgan needs to go up, as well, but not to top, even though she's been there since forever. My issue is that she needs more development to get back up there. Luc and Heinz are fine. *is not allowed to argue own character* Now, for Esphyr...

Esphyr needs to take a plunge. While you're arguing that her mood swings are justified, that is clearly not the case. For example, in Chapter 14, she's calling Morgan, who was captured, her friend, but the moment she gets back, starts hating on her again when Damian begins to argue with her. When Lev comes in, Esphyr begins hating on him because he 'treats women like objects'. Come chapter 14 again, she starts making rape jokes to a prisoner. Then there's 16, where after Luc loses his squad, and we defeat Daneka, she's making comments like that it was too easy, while people are bleeding out or mourning. Seriously, it is things like that that make your portrayal of her spotty and inconsistent at best. At worst, she's looking like a schizophrenic. Come on.

High/Top Tier: NPC in Top is a problem. =/ Anyways, Arrin down, Viveka up a spot or two, others are fine. Arrin down because I see more character from Kelas, but I like them both, and Viveka up because she has an excellent portrayal, except for the tactics thing, which should be dropped at some point. Everything else excluding my character is fine, since I'm not allowed to argue him. =/

Note: WTF @ dropping Kelas for 'no reason' to stay. Are you forgetting Arrin? Also, my mans actually rose, even though they have less of a reason to stay with the group than Charlotte, which was safety in numbers. Seriously, at least apply tier penalties to those whom the 'infraction' applies to.

Also, Tessa is the best female PC, and Bal is a guy, so I don't see what you're getting at there.

[Phoenix]

... I knew this Morgan Kelas thing would come up someday. I was hoping we could all just focus on our characters instead of pushing for massive changes. One reason is because though Morgan is in top tier she's very close to falling anyway. She's falling into the Conrad range of activity and if that doesn't change post-ball, I will be arguing her down with Sage and Luna. Simple as that. As for Kelas, she's always been done the exact same way with absolutely flawless consistency(That's important, read that again), no OOC moments ever. She's not the most interesting person(Neither is Morgan), but she's the only one that's been used as a tool without being horrendously obvious in the process. She's earned her spot.

As for why Kelas and Morgan are always on top no matter what, well it's obvious that everyone save you is trying to be nice to the women rpers and place their characters as high as possible whenever possible :P XD

The problem with Esphyr is that general consensus says she's highly inconsistent. She's nearly impossible to grasp at some points and that's obviously hurting her. One minute she's yelling at a guy, the next she's trying to crush his groin with her hand, and end scene. Next time we see her she's moping again, time skip a half hour and she's dancing with Damian and being uncomfortable about something completely different now. I'd try having her mood swings happen less often so she seems less like she's taking anti-depressants and meth by the handful.

@ Viveka

Viveka's tactical characteristics were already dropped(automatically/plot-wise). I've had her mention this on numerous occasions already. She hates being with the group because she's effectively neutralized as a strategist. No troops to command other than Jasmine makes her a foot soldier at best, and that's one of her biggest complaints.

Lastly, Luna, seriously this time. Why are Hick, Prick, and Spick still on the list? :/

Edited August 31, 2010 by Phoenix

[Snike]

As for why Kelas and Morgan are always on top no matter what, well it's obvious that everyone save you is trying to be nice to the women rpers and place their characters as high as possible whenever possible :P XD

Lastly, Luna, seriously this time. Why are Hick, Prick, and Spick still on the list? :/

1. ... ****, I've been found out. *escapes in getaway vehicle*

2. If you're referring to the people I think you're referring to, the decanonization of them is being backlogged. Please wait a few more months.

Edit: Blitz tactics don't help? Mon, she needs more hands-on experience, then.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Snike

[Snowy_One]

Pary should be above Rita, at the very least, if not a tier up, because while he's a bit of a complete monster, he's easily the best-written of Psych's characters.

Fair enough. Not a tier though.

Charlotte is way too low, since she IS developed considerably, and is NOT prompting those WTF moments the lower tiered characters oh-so love. I recommend her rise.

Charlotte is a princess trying to restore a nation unless it changed recently. To accomplish this goal, she tags along with a group of criminals. HM and Damian are the only ones in it who could help her out, and unless I'm missing something she hasn't talked to ether. If someone made a character who just replies 'meh' to everything, there will be no WTF moments, and the character will be horrible. Charlotte strikes me as a Disney princess minus Walt's charm. If she burst into song, I would honestly not be shocked. The only time I can recall her even acting any different than 'I need to restore the nation' personality wise was when Esphyr told her off.

Frick. One of these three nations destroyed her own nation! We have two national-level representatives and are in the ballroom of the third, and she's not even being SNIDE?!

Problems I see here are Reika and Alferis. They are too damned low, especially with recent development.

Alf, sure. Rekia... lolno. Rekia is suffering from absorbtion syndrome. She wasn't sages character to start with and, no matter how hard sage tries, he simply isn't Kamilla. Either he needs to hardline her back to her original format, or outright break her away.

Altion should go down as well, since he really hasn't done much at all.

Altion doesn't get much of a chance to do anything. I should do something with him at this ball soon, one I figure out what the general state of the ball is.

Alright, so first off, Kelas is too low. She has to be in top, minimum, considering her development and interactions.

I like Kelas, but she is in no way top. Her tie to the group is superficial at best (Arrin, who himself is only around because Morgan is forcing him unless I missed something) and... well... She's kind of weird. She agrees to Altion's race, has fun, Altion tries to defend her when they get attacked by wolves, he goes off and mopes and blames himself because of his failing, and she then badmouths him behind his back? Maybe I'm mad, but still...

Also, Top tier is a stuck-up notion. I hate it. It implies that the characters are flawless or near-perfect. In a different league than other characters whom are still great.

Morgan needs to go up, as well, but not to top, even though she's been there since forever. My issue is that she needs more development to get back up there.

Morgan still stinks of Morrigan IMO. Here's an idea. This ball has drinks. Let her drink and get loose-lipped, then allow for either backstory development or have her do something unique and let her recover from it the following morning. Like, have her tell Tessa off about some absurdly minor detail (maybe Tessa stepped on her foot or something) and have Morgan actually scare her away, then have to deal with it when her head clears up. Maybe not exactly that, but, you know, something she regrets and has to either put up with or mend instead of being remote and distant.

Esphyr needs to take a plunge. While you're arguing that her mood swings are justified, that is clearly not the case. For example, in Chapter 14, she's calling Morgan, who was captured, her friend, but the moment she gets back, starts hating on her again when Damian begins to argue with her.

Morgan also completely ignored her. Imagine how you would feel if your friend is kidnapped, you pray/hope/whatever that they return well, then they come back and don't even look at you. You'd be pretty pissed too.

When Lev comes in, Esphyr begins hating on him because he 'treats women like objects'.

And she pointed out later the reason why she was mad. She's had to put up with employers saying this and had to smile, grin, and bear it until Lev.

Come chapter 14 again, she starts making rape jokes to a prisoner.

Context. Prisoner was being tight-lipped and is known to be an ass (unless I recall wrong).

Then there's 16, where after Luc loses his squad, and we defeat Daneka, she's making comments like that it was too easy, while people are bleeding out or mourning. Seriously, it is things like that that make your portrayal of her spotty and inconsistent at best.

She's a mercenary. SHE'S SEEN IT BEFORE! Often times people wonder how officers can hold meetings on battlefields about post-battlefield events, sometimes while the fighting is still wrapping up. Once you've been on a battlefield enough, it becomes... different.

High/Top Tier: NPC in Top is a problem.

If it's about character, PC/NPC status doesn't matter one bit.

Note: WTF @ dropping Kelas for 'no reason' to stay. Are you forgetting Arrin? Also, my mans actually rose, even though they have less of a reason to stay with the group than Charlotte, which was safety in numbers. Seriously, at least apply tier penalties to those whom the 'infraction' applies to.

I actually couldn't remember the reason. I'm not perfect. I can only remember so much, and this summer was brutal with people forcing me away from reading posts for manuel labor.

Also, Tessa is the best female PC, and Bal is a guy, so I don't see what you're getting at there.

The top three characters are all female, with the two tops being both a tier above and controlled by two women. I'm not terribly sexist, but I do try to sense when there is bias happening. A full tier above, especially when I find problems with them, is just not right.

At worst, she's looking like a schizophrenic. Come on.

[Phoenix]

1. ... ****, I've been found out. *escapes in getaway vehicle*

2. If you're referring to the people I think you're referring to, the decanonization of them is being backlogged. Please wait a few more months.

1. Wait for me!

2. lol

Edit: Blitz tactics don't help? Mon, she needs more hands-on experience, then.

Yep. Read her backstory again. She's a scouter, not a foot soldier. She learned about tactics and commanding forces, but having to fight all by herself is something she can't handle and it's discouraging for her. Think back to the recent VivxDerek posts.

@ Snowy

Charlotte's actually a very good character. Annoying as hell sometimes but still well done. The characters being in the group for bad reasons is sometimes IC. They aren't always supposed to use our logic when making decisions. As for her placement, I took her off of top tier. Yes you heard right. She was at the very top of top tier before the last update. She's been put where she needs to be. As for arguing more characters right now, I think it's pointless. Instead of saying that I put in enough work for say ... Irina (remember, when Sage took over the list, Irina had stopped being a victim for a whole chapter, and she suddenly dropped 2 tiers) to be higher than she is(she CAN be argued up, but instead), I'm going to prove that she deserves to be higher by showing it in the rp. Whistler's not helping with the Heinz absence but I can think of something.

Point is, the list is accurate enough for now, and several are close to dropping and rising. It's better to work on making sure your characters don't drop instead of justifying what they've done in the past, I think.

@ Everyone

Please don't argue for or against characters you don't even know anything about. For example. If you don't actually read Bal's posts don't say jack about Tessa's positioning. If you don't read mine, don't even mention my characters in this thread. Much appreciated.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Phoenix

[Snike]

Fair enough. Not a tier though.

K

Charlotte is a princess trying to restore a nation unless it changed recently. To accomplish this goal, she tags along with a group of criminals. HM and Damian are the only ones in it who could help her out, and unless I'm missing something she hasn't talked to ether. If someone made a character who just replies 'meh' to everything, there will be no WTF moments, and the character will be horrible. Charlotte strikes me as a Disney princess minus Walt's charm. If she burst into song, I would honestly not be shocked. The only time I can recall her even acting any different than 'I need to restore the nation' personality wise was when Esphyr told her off.

Frick. One of these three nations destroyed her own nation! We have two national-level representatives and are in the ballroom of the third, and she's not even being SNIDE?!

IIRC, Halton already offered her aid, as a blood contract, which she declined. Elysimia has been stated to be neutral, as well. So, you lose there.

She does not reply 'meh' to anything, and is no wheres near a Disney princess, personality-wise. It is things like this that make me wonder whether you really read some of the posts, man. I mean, she is a stereotypical princess, but not to THAT extent.

Also, snide remarks would be OOC. Good going. ;D

Alf, sure. Rekia... lolno. Rekia is suffering from absorbtion syndrome. She wasn't sages character to start with and, no matter how hard sage tries, he simply isn't Kamilla. Either he needs to hardline her back to her original format, or outright break her away.

Note: her name is Reika. R-E-I-K-A. And Kanami =/= Kamilla.

As of right now, she's Sages' character, so, you really can't compare her too-too much to Kanami's Reika. It would be like comparing my Jace to your Ch8 one-line impression. There's been nothing OOC I've seen, and she certainly is interesting enough.

Altion doesn't get much of a chance to do anything. I should do something with him at this ball soon, one I figure out what the general state of the ball is.

Not my problem. Just calling it as I see it. As for the ball idea, maybe he should just go interact with someone.

I like Kelas, but she is in no way top. Her tie to the group is superficial at best (Arrin, who himself is only around because Morgan is forcing him unless I missed something) and... well... She's kind of weird. She agrees to Altion's race, has fun, Altion tries to defend her when they get attacked by wolves, he goes off and mopes and blames himself because of his failing, and she then badmouths him behind his back? Maybe I'm mad, but still...

Also, Top tier is a stuck-up notion. I hate it. It implies that the characters are flawless or near-perfect. In a different league than other characters whom are still great.

No offense, but most of the kills there were provided by Kelas, but I see what you're getting at. However, it is IC for her to do so.

@Top tier: It just means that they're some of the best-written characters. High is fine, but I use Top myself out of habit.

Morgan still stinks of Morrigan IMO. Here's an idea. This ball has drinks. Let her drink and get loose-lipped, then allow for either backstory development or have her do something unique and let her recover from it the following morning. Like, have her tell Tessa off about some absurdly minor detail (maybe Tessa stepped on her foot or something) and have Morgan actually scare her away, then have to deal with it when her head clears up. Maybe not exactly that, but, you know, something she regrets and has to either put up with or mend instead of being remote and distant.

I personally have never played the game Morrigan is in, but resemblances aside, GOGO Chase, for that suggestion. We've already said she needs to drop, but, honestly, not to that extent, FMPOV.

Morgan also completely ignored her. Imagine how you would feel if your friend is kidnapped, you pray/hope/whatever that they return well, then they come back and don't even look at you. You'd be pretty pissed too.

Morgan ignores EVERYONE, from time to time. And, I sort of don't get how Esphyr considered herself Morgan's friend in the first place. I guess that's what stemmed the hate there. My bad.

And she pointed out later the reason why she was mad. She's had to put up with employers saying this and had to smile, grin, and bear it until Lev.

Don't break up thoughts, plz.

Context. Prisoner was being tight-lipped and is known to be an ass (unless I recall wrong).

Context is irrelevant. What I was saying is that at one instance, she's hating on a man for treating women like objects, but at another, she's making rape jokes, which seems extremely hypocritical. Pick a side!

She's a mercenary. SHE'S SEEN IT BEFORE! Often times people wonder how officers can hold meetings on battlefields about post-battlefield events, sometimes while the fighting is still wrapping up. Once you've been on a battlefield enough, it becomes... different.

OK, if she's so hardened, then why does she snap when Damian is injured, or when she accidentally almost kills Irina? Hell, why is she sitting around, insulting the deceased enemy, instead of helping other people not die? It's a scary dissonance, that makes her look less and less sane.

If it's about character, PC/NPC status doesn't matter one bit.

One would hope that NPCs would be lower on the list than the main characters, or PCs.

I actually couldn't remember the reason. I'm not perfect. I can only remember so much, and this summer was brutal with people forcing me away from reading posts for manuel labor.

OK, then why are you arguing that they should go lower in the OP before the tier list due to no need to be with the party?

The top three characters are all female, with the two tops being both a tier above and controlled by two women. I'm not terribly sexist, but I do try to sense when there is bias happening. A full tier above, especially when I find problems with them, is just not right.

Maybe they were placed there by consensus, Snowy, a thing your list lacks.

At worst, she's looking like a schizophrenic. Come on.

I stand beside this statement.

@Phoenix: OK, she'll get crash courses, then. =)

@Phoenix again: I do read all posts. I'm surprised some people don't.

[Balcerzak]

Maybe they were placed there by consensus, Snowy, a thing your list lacks.

To be fair, Sage's list was very different from the previous list, and also flat out ignored some of the intermediate feedback, not to mention added in several highly questionable moves (of the sort I saw people lambasting Snowy for), that I hardly think this is appropriate criticism.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Balcerzak