Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Paperblade]

Chapter 20 info.

Enemy stats:

Warrior: 45 attack (1-2 range), 147 hit, 24AS, 60HP, 14 Def, 2 Res

Hero: 44/43 attack (sword/axe), 156/151 hit (sword/axe), 26 AS, 54HP, 16-17 Def, 6 Res. One of them has a Swordslayer, he only has 136 hit.

Sniper: 42 attack, 136/157 hit (Long/Silver), 26AS, 52HP, 14 Def, 6 Res. Only 1 starting on the map has Silver.

Sage: 40-41 attack, 159 hit, 24AS, 40HP, 8 Def/Res

General: 43/46 (Spear/Silver), 147 hit, 21AS, 18 Def, 7 Res.

Bishop: 26/36 attack (Swarm/Bolganone), 106/125 hit, 20AS, 40HP, 6 Def, 13 Res. The ones with Swarm do not move, and cannot double.

And 1 of each of the following:

Sorceror: 36 attack (ignores Res), 148 hit, 23AS, 42HP, 7 Def, 10 Res

Earth Dragon: 48 attack, 123 hit, 28AS, 60HP, 16 Def, 19 Res

Thief: 29 attack (Levin Sword), 142 hit, 28AS, 40HP, 8 Def, 0 Res

At the beginning, there's a Thief with a Master Key. I don't know what he goes after as every attempt I have killed him on turn 1.

There are then 2 Heroes at a chokepoint, one with a sword one with an axe. They don't seem to move if you're within attack range, although if they're like every other enemy that has similar AI there's probably a cutoff point. They are covered by a Swarm Bishop. Attacking them pulls 2 more Heroes (one with the Swordkiller), a Warrior, and the only Silver Bow Sniper. Something about this (I think either killing the Swordkiller Hero or just engaging it in combat) triggers reinforcements.

6 Paladins from behind your starting position every turn for 3 turns (for a total of 18).

44/41 Atk (Silver Sword, Spear / Silver Lance), 155/150 Hit (Silver Sword / Spear, Silver Lance), 25AS, 56HP, 17 Def, 9 Res

As well as a Spear General, 2 Silver Sword Heroes, 2 Silver Bow Snipers, 2 Warriors, and 2 Sages spawn in the lower right room.

These reinforcements skip a turn, and on the second spawn (which would be the third turn of Paladin reinforcements), there is no General and only one Sage is spawned.

Both sets of reinforcements will charge your position, ultimately flanking you with enemies that would be rough for a cast of Part 4 FE10 characters, let alone a group of units that are only second tier.

Meanwhile, if any enemy so much as gets a scratch, one of the half dozen Bishops will Physic him (or Fortify).

I'm currently trying to figure out a way to survive this (I was able to clear out the Paladins, but the Sages prove problematic).

Edited July 21, 2010 by Paperblade

[Colonel M]

I'm afraid I can't help you on that Paperblade. :/

Roger stuff

I see that he's likely better once the classes merge, but then there's issues giving him a slot for Swordmaster or Sniper as they're pretty high demand classes. I'd probably early seal him too to get out of his "suck period" as fast as possible. Probably not going very far.

[Paperblade]

I almost had it, but since the Sages have Thoron, that gives them 23-24 Crit.

For reference, my Catria only has 21 Luck with the Starsphere.

[Colonel M]

Shockingly, I think Cecil will be around Gordin and Ryan's tier placement. Even though she's pretty terrible, I found some useful niches just because of Pegasus Knight. She helped me clear all the Bandits and Hunters on Turn 1 in Chapter 4 by chipping the Hunter with DracoKnight Arran.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Colonel M

[Deliriyum]

I'm afraid I can't help you on that Paperblade. :/

I see that he's likely better once the classes merge, but then there's issues giving him a slot for Swordmaster or Sniper as they're pretty high demand classes. I'd probably early seal him too to get out of his "suck period" as fast as possible. Probably not going very far.

The thing is, he doesn't particularly need either of those. He's happy with hunter because he can attack safely most of the time. Hunter gives him all the speed he needs, Sniper just takes 2 move away from him post promotion. I guess if he's ever in a situation where the +1 speed sniper has will keep him from being doubled/get him doubling, then it is worth it.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Core

[Rewjeo]

Sniper also gives +1 STR and extra WEXP, so maybe +2 ATK before factoring in superior bows, and +1 SPD.

If there was going to be multiple tier lists for different difficulties, is there enough of a difference between Maniac and Lunatic, or do you think Hard would be better?

[Colonel M]

Sniper also gives +1 STR and extra WEXP, so maybe +2 ATK before factoring in superior bows, and +1 SPD.

Slize nailed the reasons why. As a Hunter, you're stuck with E Bows, which are really pathetic. You can likely stay there until he hits Level 10, but it is pretty challenging within itself. He might be able to stick it out as a Cavalier in Chapter 9 since there isn't desert until further north of the map (or so it seems in FEWOD).

[Don Draper]

I'll do a quick comparison between three similar characters: Frey, Ogma and Navarre.

Lets assume they're all going to be the same class for simplicities sake. Say....Cav? We'll also assume that Ogma got 3 levels (as a Merc) and Frey got 1 (as a Cav) by the time Nabarl shows up.

Ogma (10/0): 30 HP, 10.8 Str, 9.65 Skl, 11.5 Spd, 6.8 Lck, 10.6 Def

Frey (9/0): 26.9 HP, 11.45 Str, 8.65 Skl, 10.65 Spd, 6.55 Lck, 10.3 Def

Nabarl (8/0): 25 HP, 11 Str, 9 Skl, 11 Spd, 7 Lck, 11 Def

Ridiculously similar. Of the three, Nabarl is probably edging out a victory simply because of his forced chapter utility (Ogma isn't required to do much in most efficient Chapter 4 strategies thanks to Yumina's rescue), so its probably looking like Nabarl>Ogma>Frey with the differences being incredibly subtle. Also worth noting that Nabarl/Ogma have C Swords and E Lances while Frey has C Lances and D Swords

Now, we'll look at base growths (we'll assume that each of their classes stay the same so i'll use base growths):

Growth Frey Ogma Nabarl

HP 50 50 50

Str 30 40 35

Skl 40 30 30

Spd 55 30 40

Lck 60 55 75

Def 25 15 15

They're still going to be eerily similar. Frey looks like he has the most potential with advantages in both speed and defense growths, with Nabarl and then Ogma close behind.

Honestly, all three characters are probably going to end up placed similarly in the tier list, unless Ogma's lower speed growth proves to be a big enough liability.

EDIT: Draug vs. Barst both as Fighters

Draug (10/0): 30 HP, 12.6 Str, 7.8 Skl, 13.4 Spd, 4.6 Lck, 4 Def

Barst (5/0): 26 HP, 12 Str, 10 Skl, 11 Spd, 6 Lck, 7 Def

Draug has the level advantage, and is understandably winning. +4 HP, +0.6 Str and +2.4 Spd certainly edge out a +3.2 Skl, +1.4 Lck and +3 Def lead. Looking to growths now...

Growth Draug Barst

HP 20 30

Str 25 30

Skl 30 35

Spd 50 30

Lck 40 50

Def 25 20

Draug wins speed forever. More def growth is irrelevant, as he'll never beat Barst in it.

So after a decent amount of levels for both, Draug will lose in everything but speed. Will his speed advantage be enough to surpass Barst? I'm going to wait a bit before going in depth with that, but this should provide a start at least.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Deliriyum]

I'll do a quick comparison between three similar characters: Frey, Ogma and Navarre.

Lets assume they're all going to be the same class for simplicities sake. Say....Cav? We'll also assume that Ogma got 3 levels (as a Merc) and Frey got 1 (as a Cav) by the time Nabarl shows up.

Ogma (10/0): 30 HP, 10.8 Str, 9.65 Skl, 11.5 Spd, 6.8 Lck, 10.6 Def

Frey (9/0): 26.9 HP, 11.45 Str, 8.65 Skl, 10.65 Spd, 6.55 Lck, 10.3 Def

Nabarl (8/0): 25 HP, 11 Str, 9 Skl, 11 Spd, 7 Lck, 11 Def

Ridiculously similar. Of the three, Nabarl is probably edging out a victory simply because of his forced chapter utility (Ogma isn't required to do much in most efficient Chapter 4 strategies thanks to Yumina's rescue), so its probably looking like Nabarl>Ogma>Frey with the differences being incredibly subtle. Also worth noting that Nabarl/Ogma have C Swords and E Lances while Frey has C Lances and D Swords

Now, we'll look at base growths (we'll assume that each of their classes stay the same so i'll use base growths):

Growth Frey Ogma Nabarl

HP 50 50 50

Str 30 40 35

Skl 40 30 30

Spd 55 30 40

Lck 60 55 75

Def 25 15 15

They're still going to be eerily similar. Frey looks like he has the most potential with advantages in both speed and defense growths, with Nabarl and then Ogma close behind.

Honestly, all three characters are probably going to end up placed similarly in the tier list, unless Ogma's lower speed growth proves to be a big enough liability.

EDIT: Draug vs. Barst both as Fighters

Draug (10/0): 30 HP, 12.6 Str, 7.8 Skl, 13.4 Spd, 4.6 Lck, 4 Def

Barst (5/0): 26 HP, 12 Str, 10 Skl, 11 Spd, 6 Lck, 7 Def

Draug has the level advantage, and is understandably winning. +4 HP, +0.6 Str and +2.4 Spd certainly edge out a +3.2 Skl, +1.4 Lck and +3 Def lead. Looking to growths now...

Growth Draug Barst

HP 20 30

Str 25 30

Skl 30 35

Spd 50 30

Lck 40 50

Def 25 20

Draug wins speed forever. More def growth is irrelevant, as he'll never beat Barst in it.

So after a decent amount of levels for both, Draug will lose in everything but speed. Will his speed advantage be enough to surpass Barst? I'm going to wait a bit before going in depth with that, but this should provide a start at least.

Barst's lead in HP is somewhat redundant because Barst has 110%, Draug has 100%. Strength also isn't an issue for either of them, they both get that stat really high. Barst relies on it a bit more though. As for skill, Draug may have a few hit problems, but nothing too notable in comparison to Barst. Speed is where Draug shines though. After promoting as fighter, he can switch over to Beserker and reach the speed cap. Barst can't say the same. He'll cap it, but he'll do much later. I think the speed gives Draug the edge. Edit: On average, the best speed Barst can have is 29 at 20/20. Draug caps 30 speed at level ~14.

Regarding Ogma/Nabarl/Frey, isn't Cain in the same boat? He comes the latest, but he has the same sort of growths as all of them.

Growth Frey Ogma Nabarl Cain

HP 50 50 50 50

Str 30 40 35 25

Skl 40 30 30 45

Spd 55 30 40 60

Lck 60 55 75 75

Def 25 15 15 20

Edited July 21, 2010 by Core

[grandjackal]

I'd imagine the only reason we aren't switching Barst to a class such as merc is due to E swords?

[Deliriyum]

I'd imagine the only reason we aren't switching Barst to a class such as merc is due to E swords?

That and he loses a bit of durability.

[Dat Nick]

She helped me clear all the Bandits and Hunters on Turn 1 in Chapter 4 by chipping the Hunter with DracoKnight Arran.

Isn't Arran supposed to be ORKOing Hunters with Silver? (Or was that archers)

[cheetah7071]

Isn't Arran supposed to be ORKOing Hunters with Silver? (Or was that archers)

Even my incredibly lucky speed-proccing Arran couldn't double the chapter 4 hunters.

[grandjackal]

That and he loses a bit of durability.

I'd think it'd be a bigger deal with the E swords, unless he started suddenly being OHKOd.

[Sploosh]

Top

Palla

Catria

Caeda

High

Sirius

Luke

Linde

Mid

Arran

Wendell

Draug

Navarre

Oguma

Frey

Cain

Rody

Maris

Barst

Minerva

Malliesia

Yumina

Wrys

Merric

Something roughly like that? MU should be High/Top depending on his/her class.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Sploosh

[Rewjeo]

Where do you guys think Katarina will go? She joins to end 16x with 34 HP, 12 MAG, 15 SKL/SPD, 6 LUK, 9 DEF, and 7 RES with B Tomes and C staves. If there are uses left, she can take Aura and comes with her own Resire tome, and can Physic and Warp. That being said, those are pretty poor stats. She's only got 21 ATK with Resire, and with only 34 HP/9 DEF, it's not letting her do much tanking at all.

Edit: Oh, yeah, she's probably doubled, too.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Slize

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The AS of the enemies that matter in chapter 17 is 23-25 so she is indeed being double by everything there and even with a Resire counter-attack (some Warriors killing her before she can even counter-attack), the second hit will destroy her. Decent damage with Aura (27-30) and the nice Staff rank she comes with is pretty much all she can do.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Sirius

[Rewjeo]

Well, considering that she'd need to get three speed to avoid being doubled by GENERALS a few chapters later, I figured that she'd be doubled by everything. Except the failure Gra soldiers.

Edit: Do you think Samson can do much? He beats Sheema in all stats (except lolSKL by 2, and I guess MAG/RES where they tie) but he can't use bows the way she can. 135 Axe WEXP means he can Hammer and Halberd stuff, I guess, but I'm honestly not sure if that beats Sheema OHKOing lategame dragons. I mean, Hero!Samson just barely escapes being doubled by capped generals, and only has 41 effective MT with a hammer or poleaxe. Actually, he shouldn't be touching poleaxes because he's ORKOd in return if the enemy isn't already weakened or if he misses. And with 90 HIT before enemy avoid...

Edited July 22, 2010 by Slize

[Colonel M]

I'm thinking if free reclass is allowed (as in the Class A and B merged), Roger would be near Navarre and Frey (same tier I mean). Rody and Luke are about equal in terms of stats and growths. Luke is easier to use, but Rody isn't far off from damnation and admittidely has a 15% Spd growth lead on Luke I believe.

[bottlegnomes]

Well, considering that she'd need to get three speed to avoid being doubled by GENERALS a few chapters later, I figured that she'd be doubled by everything. Except the failure Gra soldiers.

Edit: Do you think Samson can do much? He beats Sheema in all stats (except lolSKL by 2, and I guess MAG/RES where they tie) but he can't use bows the way she can. 135 Axe WEXP means he can Hammer and Halberd stuff, I guess, but I'm honestly not sure if that beats Sheema OHKOing lategame dragons. I mean, Hero!Samson just barely escapes being doubled by capped generals, and only has 41 effective MT with a hammer or poleaxe. Actually, he shouldn't be touching poleaxes because he's ORKOd in return if the enemy isn't already weakened or if he misses. And with 90 HIT before enemy avoid...

Did they lower his speed? IIRC he had 19 speed. That seems like it should be good enough to avoid being doubled by slower enemies. He only needs 3 speed to avoid being doubled by the faster enemies from what Sirius posted. But, eh, I haven't played it so I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[Rewjeo]

Enemies are pulling 23-25 in 17 (which he joins at the end of) so he'd need at least 20 to avoid being doubled by the slower ones, 22 to avoid the faster ones. 18 is needed to avoid generals. And according to the site, he has 7 absolute base speed and hero has 11 base speed. That gives him 18. Just avoiding generals, but he's already two speed away from escaping any other doubles in chapter 17.

[bottlegnomes]

Enemies are pulling 23-25 in 17 (which he joins at the end of) so he'd need at least 20 to avoid being doubled by the slower ones, 22 to avoid the faster ones. 18 is needed to avoid generals. And according to the site, he has 7 absolute base speed and hero has 11 base speed. That gives him 18. Just avoiding generals, but he's already two speed away from escaping any other doubles in chapter 17.

They actually lowered his base speed!? Bastards! He was bad enough as is they didn't need to make him worse.

[Edward]

Jake is top tier , General --> Berserker

[AstraLunaSol]

They actually lowered his base speed!? Bastards! He was bad enough as is they didn't need to make him worse.

In FE3, he had 17 Base

In FE11, he had 16

Now, he has a total of 18.

I fail to see how it got lowered.

[_____]

Base Hero Darros is 3RKO'd by Ice Dragons and Bandits in Chapter 13 and can avoid being doubled by Flying Dragons (and thus be 3RKO'd by them) with a +1 speed shard. A +1 Res shard means he's 3RKO'd by Dark Mages, too. Problem is, he'd be stuck with Killer Axes and Steel Axes since going Hero drops him to C Axes...

Past the Dragons, I see that he's not doubled by Chapter 16 Paladins, and is even 3RKO'd by them. Getting later into the game, his speed's probably going to lag a bit, though.

I dunno', he's easily crushing the Sable Knights, and he's probably even beating Cain, too (hi i have a horse when we're about to go to a desert aren't i cool). I guess Cain could early promote to a DK, but his bases just aren't that good. Seriously, he has 11 AS as a DK. That's awful.