Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Rewjeo]

They actually lowered his base speed!? Bastards! He was bad enough as is they didn't need to make him worse.

Even if he did have 19 speed, it wouldn't have made a difference. He'd still be doubled by all the same enemies, wouldn't escape any more doubles, and it would only give him 1 more AVO.

[Colonel M]

Cain has P-8 and Chapters 8-10 to play catch-up. As a Cavalier he's only harmed in the latter half of Chapter 9 and it seems that not all of it is desert (but I'm speculating via map). Even then he can just be a Myrmidion. 15 Spd probably won't double the Mages though. :/

Darros does look a helluva lot better. Guess the joke's over? :(

Edited July 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

I do remember a good chunk of chapter 9 not being desert.

[_____]

Cain has P-8 and Chapters 8-10 to play catch-up. As a Cavalier he's only harmed in the latter half of Chapter 9 and it seems that not all of it is desert (but I'm speculating via map). Even then he can just be a Myrmidion. 15 Spd probably won't double the Mages though. :/

Darros does look a helluva lot better. Guess the joke's over? :(

How much will Cain really do in P-8, though? Granted, he's a lot better than the other Cavs, but he's still pretty useless, especially since 14 AS thieves have a chance of appearing. They're rare, but still. He might get a level or two, I guess.

There's basically nothing to do for the first half of Chapter 9, so he's pretty useless there. The only non-reinforcement enemies that don't double base Cain in Chapter 8 are the Generals, and he 9RKOs them. Chapter 10 is probably his most forgiving chapter.

Darros does not suck.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Isn't Est better for P8 since she can double?

[Deliriyum]

Isn't Est better for P8 since she can double?

Cain is significantly easier as a boss than Est is, isn't he? Unless you get ryan over to kill Est, Est is doubling most of your people, and you can't ORKO her.

[AstraLunaSol]

Cain is significantly easier as a boss than Est is, isn't he? Unless you get ryan over to kill Est, Est is doubling most of your people, and you can't ORKO her.

Ryan Steel Bows her, it get easier from there, then you can have MU kill her.

If you don't have a bow user, then you're pretty much screwed.

[Rewjeo]

Well, if she saves more turns in P8 than it takes to recruit her, then she's better than Cain. And by that, I'm not using how she hurts us as an enemy against her, I'm taking how much longer the chapter we have to take to recruit her takes against her.

Also, it's possible we also have Gordin, making her chapter easier.

[Colonel M]

Cain can survive a Hunter and Bandit, and assuming My Unit is a Fighter, Cain + MU can KO a Bandit on their own. You shouldn't have to confront the Thieves with 14 AS, and even if you do it's not like he's worse than Luke.

Isn't Est better for P8 since she can double?

Caeda and Athena have that covered nicely anyway.

There's basically nothing to do for the first half of Chapter 9, so he's pretty useless there.

Cain can hang around and take the Thieves. Granted there are others that want the EXP perhaps, but it's a possibility to give him. Cain and a lot of his nearby co need some help with EXP if they're not your usual badasses near the beginning of the game. I also stated he could try Myrmidion if it allows him to double Mages, but I'd have to see Mage's AS on that one.

I also looked at this map. Cavalier isn't a good idea in this chapter, so I apologize for saying that. He would have to go through Myrmidion unless he early seals. And looking further at Chapter 9, he'd either have to sit out or eat an early seal just for Sniper use. DracoKnights have 20 Spd. Eugh.

The only non-reinforcement enemies that don't double base Cain in Chapter 8 are the Generals, and he 9RKOs them.

What do you mean? Cain has C Swords and there's still Armorslayer at ready for him. It's a weapon; it can be shared.

(Keep in mind I think Darros wins in the end anyway).

Edited July 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[Deliriyum]

Well, if she saves more turns in P8 than it takes to recruit her, then she's better than Cain. And by that, I'm not using how she hurts us as an enemy against her, I'm taking how much longer the chapter we have to take to recruit her takes against her.

Also, it's possible we also have Gordin, making her chapter easier.

Having Gordin means we beat Jeorge earlier in the prologue, who is also significantly harder than Athena, and Gordin isn't as good as Athena in 4/5 situations anyway.

[Dat Nick]

Guess the joke's over?

The joke was always over. It was never funny to begin with (sure he's kinda not good but there's people WAY worse than him who can't even claim C2 utility, if only for suicide)

And I think putting Palla above Catria may be a bit hasty. You ARE talking about a 50% speed growth difference, which is the difference between General sucking and General being viable. It also helps far more should Catria be reclassed into something like Sniper or Swordmaster. The speed WILL be overridden quickly, so all Palla will be left with is 2 str and a weapon rank soon enough. Is that notable? Yeah, but eventually it's going to get to the point where Catria can say I double and you can't.

In fact, given how horrid 5% base speed growth is, I'm quite hesitant to say Palla should be top at all (she's going to run into trouble doubling even as Swordmaster with that growth in the latergame)

Isn't Est better for P8 since she can double?

no, Cain's better, easy. Est doubles what? Things that will OHKO her back (The Silver Axe guy will anyway, I'm 95% on that)? Est is a worse Shiida. Cain is a better Luke. You tell me which one contributes more to the team.

Well, if she saves more turns in P8 than it takes to recruit her, then she's better than Cain.

Um, you don't recruit her? You kill her?

Also, just to add onto something, I think Katrina is worth recruiting if only for the spare Aura she comes with.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[_____]

Cain can survive a Hunter and Bandit, and assuming My Unit is a Fighter, Cain + MU can KO a Bandit on their own. You shouldn't have to confront the Thieves with 14 AS, and even if you do it's not like he's worse than Luke.

Don't get me wrong, Cain is better than Luke, Rody, and Cecil in the prologue. However, I still don't think he's going to be making any significant gains in P-8. That's all.

Cain can hang around and take the Thieves. Granted there are others that want the EXP perhaps, but it's a possibility to give him. Cain and a lot of his nearby co need some help with EXP if they're not your usual badasses near the beginning of the game. I also stated he could try Myrmidion if it allows him to double Mages, but I'd have to see Mage's AS on that one.

I also looked at this map. Cavalier isn't a good idea in this chapter, so I apologize for saying that. He would have to go through Myrmidion unless he early seals. And looking further at Chapter 9, he'd either have to sit out or eat an early seal just for Sniper use. DracoKnights have 20 Spd. Eugh.

Pretty sure the Thieves would double him, though, so I don't know how much he could help there. The rest of the chapter is pretty much exclusively Dragon Knights and Mages, and Cain isn't exactly doing well against any of them.

What do you mean? Cain has C Swords and there's still Armorslayer at ready for him. It's a weapon; it can be shared.

Cain has C Swords? He had a Killer Lance in FE3, IS. Why did you bother changing his weapon ranks?

Anyway, even with the Armorslayer, he won't 2HKO unless it's a +3 MT forge, and he certainly can't take more than one hit from anyone on the map.

[Dat Nick]

Pretty sure the Thieves would double him, though

The low end thieves will not double Cain. And even when they do he soaks it up pretty well, anyway (due to having a Draug-like defense stat)

Edited July 22, 2010 by Cav!Gordin

[Rewjeo]

Um, you don't recruit her? You kill her?

Also, just to add onto something, I think Katrina is worth recruiting if only for the spare Aura she comes with.

You have to take a different chapter to recruit her, which may take more turns than Cain's (haven't played hers) but if she saved more turns than Cain in P8 (sounds like she doesn't) then she's better than him.

She comes with Resire, not Aura.

Edit: Better in regards to the prologue, not overall.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Slize

[_____]

The low end thieves will not double Cain. And even when they do he soaks it up pretty well, anyway (due to having a Draug-like defense stat)

Chapter 9 thieves.

[Dat Nick]

She comes with Resire, not Aura.

Thats what I meant to type. For whatever the hell reason, I wound up saying Aura.

[Colonel M]

I admittied he'd have to early promote or sit out in Chapter 9. For P-8, he's bound to get a level easily, maybe with enough to gain 2 levels in Chapter 8 if he finishes Generals off (this is just in case he can't take a hit from a General. I'll buy it for now since I don't have access to a computer at the moment to double check).

As for Palla, I'm not 100% sure on her leaving Top. Catria > Palla seems definite since her growths are enough to keep her on the train track, but Palla isn't hurting in base Spd it seems. 9 base Spd is quite a lot already, and you need about 9 more Spd to fill in the Swordmaster cap. I also don't think it's unfair to deny her the Speedwing in Chapter 9 either since she stands as one of your offensive powerhouses. Palla doesn't look like she wants to promote as early as Catria can, but I place high doubts on Palla falling from Top myself. I guess anything is possible, though.

[dondon151]

Cain has 11 def and induces -3 atk on the thieves from WTA. he takes something like 5 x2 or 6 x2 at worst.

That said, Cain can also survive a Silver Axe barbarian and a Silver Bow hunter. Considering the double attacking traps on either side of the starting point (enemies won't move unless unit is in range of both, and barbarian will move first), this is a huge advantage for Cain, since the only other units that can survive such a combination require any combination of HP, spd, and def level ups. Obviously, Est can't even survive 1 hunter, let alone that and a barbarian.

So Cain is basically RNG proof, which is great to have.

Also, Palla's offense trumps Catria's when Catria doesn't have B lances yet.

Edited July 22, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Cain has 11 def and induces -3 atk on the thieves from WTA. he takes something like 5 x2 or 6 x2 at worst.

That said, Cain can also survive a Silver Axe barbarian and a Silver Bow hunter. Considering the double attacking traps on either side of the starting point (enemies won't move unless unit is in range of both, and barbarian will move first), this is a huge advantage for Cain, since the only other units that can survive such a combination require any combination of HP, spd, and def level ups. Obviously, Est can't even survive 1 hunter, let alone that and a barbarian.

So Cain is basically RNG proof, which is great to have.

Also, Palla's offense trumps Catria's when Catria doesn't have B lances yet.

They're Steel Axe Bandits IIRC. Base Marth can also survive them, but also gives out less damage than Cain does.

Also, yeah Palla wins for a while; can't deny that. The problem arises more with if we assumed the early seal on Catria (and when it is likely to do so). Then the offense is pretty matched; possibly in Catria's favor.

[Don Draper]

I'd like to remind everyone that I recorded enemy stats for the prologue:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21470&view=findpost&p=1143264

Should help when debating.

[_____]

I thought you were talking about post prologue Cain there for a second, Dondon. Had a reply ready and everything. Oh well.

I admittied he'd have to early promote or sit out in Chapter 9. For P-8, he's bound to get a level easily, maybe with enough to gain 2 levels in Chapter 8 if he finishes Generals off (this is just in case he can't take a hit from a General. I'll buy it for now since I don't have access to a computer at the moment to double check).

I said he couldn't take more than one attack. Generals have 31 Attack, so Cain only has 6 HP left after one attacks. Considering this and how everyone wants the Armorslayer (and most people will be doing much better than Cain with it) and how every other enemy that isn't a reinforcement will ORKO him, I think Cain getting 2 levels is really pushing things.

About Chapter 9, I don't really know how I feel about promoting Cain and wasting a Master Seal, even though we have a ton), for what amounts to basically Arran, but 10 chapters later.

[Sploosh]

Cain seems kinda meh...he comes really late.

What if we switch him over to Myrmidon? He has similar bases to Nabarl. Then again, it's in high demand :(

Katarina I feel should be like...near where Etzel is. Free nice healbot.

Darros seems legit...41 HP, 15 STR, 17 SPD, 14 DEF as a Hero. His growths are kinda low though...

Top

Catria

Palla

Caeda

High

Sirius

Luke

Linde

Upper Mid

Arran

Rody

Draug

Wendell

Navarre

Oguma

Frey

Barst

Cain

Lower Mid

Minerva

Maris

Malliesia

Yumina

Wrys

Merric

Edited July 22, 2010 by Sploosh

[Colonel M]

I said he couldn't take more than one attack. Generals have 31 Attack, so Cain only has 6 HP left after one attacks. Considering this and how everyone wants the Armorslayer (and most people will be doing much better than Cain with it) and how every other enemy that isn't a reinforcement will ORKO him, I think Cain getting 2 levels is really pushing things.

Ninji, the reinforcements in this map include Turn 2 spawning Cavaliers and Armor Knights. You also have to deal with 5 Generals up in the north. You can't really tell me he cannot get the Armorslayer once in this chapter. There are only 3 Paladins in the starting point, and the remaining enemies are Generals. And 2 Snipers, which he can combat up close. The only other enemies he can likely confront are two more Cavaliers and a Mage, and maybe an AK on Turn 5 when the chapter is likely over. As for gaining two levels; Cain will probably have "leftover" EXP from P-8 that could warrant him a second level up. That does not mean he will gain two levels in Chapter 8, but I would not doubt the possibility if you were putting a little more favoritism toward him.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

Etzel can also Excalibur the flying dragons and has something called durability for some time. However, Katarina has Warp. Of course, Bishop!Etzel is also only 15 WEXP away from Warp, and in his 9 1/2 chapters of availability before she shows up, that's asking for less than one staff use per chapter. He's actually seriously contributing for at least some time frame and then, when she shows up, he's her. I guess she has Aura.

I'm not seeing Etzel and Katarina very close to each other.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Slize

[_____]

stuff

First of all, all of the healers are not Lower Mid, especially Mallesia.

Secondly, Cain is not better than Minerva. No way.

Ninji, the reinforcements in this map include Turn 2 spawning Cavaliers and Armor Knights. You also have to deal with 5 Generals up in the north. You can't really tell me he cannot get the Armorslayer once in this chapter. There are only 3 Paladins in the starting point, and the remaining enemies are Generals. And 2 Snipers, which he can combat up close. The only other enemies he can likely confront are two more Cavaliers and a Mage, and maybe an AK on Turn 5 when the chapter is likely over.

Never said he could never get the Armorslayer. I said it's in high demand and he doesn't do well with it. There's a huge difference. Also, how often do you really expect Cain to be healed? That's a lot of enemies for someone who is 2RKO'd by all of them and is in an extremely crowded bridge area.

As for gaining two levels; Cain will probably have "leftover" EXP from P-8 that could warrant him a second level up. That does not mean he can.

could

   /kʊd; unstressed kəd/ Show Spelled[kood; unstressed kuhd] Show IPA

–verb

1.

a pt. of can.

I think you mean "does not mean he will".

Regardless, this all depends on whether we're willing to let him get kills or hits.

Edit: You edited that sentence, but my reply remains the same.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Ninji