H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[grandjackal]

Have you seen Balcerzak's videos? They pretty much demonstrate Myrmidon MU is a nuke.

I have not, and I'm angry he gets credit for the thing I made. Gimme the link so I can hate on him on his youtube.

Gar...Might need rest. Having a bit of a food poisoning problem.

Nevermind, found it. Gimme credit, Balk, you thief!

Edited June 21, 2012 by grandjackal

[Paperblade]

tbh I think that recruiting everyone possible + survival should be assumed for tier lists

...Why aren't we using Fighter MU, and why are we acting like we only have 1 archer? Seriously, am I the only one who finds chapter 2 not difficult?

A. Read the OP, it's not assumed.

B. There are 4 Dracoknights + the boss and you have to kill them after the pull or they'll kill your healer or something. And yes it actually is kind of difficult if you don't have a Fighter MU with RP

Edited June 21, 2012 by Paperblade

[grandjackal]

tbh I think that recruiting everyone possible + survival should be assumed for tier lists

Why? If a unit sucks that you recruit, what else are you gonna do with it aside from strategical sacrifice? This is especially true for FE12 where 90% of the cast is unusably bad.

A. Read the OP, it's not assumed.

B. There are 4 Dracoknights + the boss and you have to kill them after the pull or they'll kill your healer or something. And yes it actually is kind of difficult if you don't have a Fighter MU with RP

As for the whole pull one you pull all dracos, I know this and do it all the time. It's not that hard. In fact, with Myrm MU and the Lady Sword you get that very map makes it absurdly easy to show you don't even need to rely on Fighter MU. Between your 3 archers, MU Myrm or Fighter, Sniper Arran and other folks, this is not a hard accomplishment to pull off.

[Anouleth]

This is dumb. A Steel Bow forge with +4mt does not cost anything. It has the same mt as a Silver Bow, about twice the cost, but 15 more uses than 20. The difference in cost between 35 Silver Bow uses and 35 Steel Bow forges is actually about a thousand gold. AKA, less than half a stat booster.

Why? If a unit sucks that you recruit, what else are you gonna do with it aside from strategical sacrifice? This is especially true for FE12 where 90% of the cast is unusably bad.

Because it preempts retarded "we won't even recruit character X" arguments. And I think it's reasonable enough to require side objectives to be completed.

I also think it's reasonable to consider multiple types of MU.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Anouleth

[grandjackal]

This is dumb. A Steel Bow forge with +4mt does not cost anything. It has the same mt as a Silver Bow, about twice the cost, but 15 more uses than 20. The difference in cost between 35 Silver Bow uses and 35 Steel Bow forges is actually about a thousand gold. AKA, less than half a stat booster.

Go look at the price of actually forging the bow, because it definitely costs something. I could care less about the "amount of uses" because it's one weapon instead of three, and it costs a skeet ton in one fell swoop. I cannot arm 3 people with one weapon at the same time.

Because it preempts retarded "we won't even recruit character X" arguments. And I think it's reasonable enough to require side objectives to be completed.

Free Silvers is a tier entirely dedicated to show units that are absolutely unusably useless. The argument is already assumed in the list.

I also think it's reasonable to consider multiple types of MU.

I'll drop this I guess. Mostly only effects prologue anyways.

[Anouleth]

Go look at the price of actually forging the bow, because it definitely costs something. I could care less about the "amount of uses" because it's one weapon instead of three, and it costs a skeet ton in one fell swoop. I cannot arm 3 people with one weapon at the same time.

Well, you get a Steel Bow for free (several, in fact) quite early on, and the cost of +4mt is 500%, which is 4235. At worst, if we end up selling two Silver Bows to pay for it, which is the absolute stupidest way to evaluate it's cost, it's costing us 2135 gold, still less than the cost of a stat booster.

You cannot arm three people with silver bows because even if they grew on trees, lots of people lack bow rank. In fact, the only person who's anywhere on the tier list who has enough initial bow rank to use those Silvers is Jeorge.

Free Silvers is a tier entirely dedicated to show units that are absolutely unusably useless. The argument is already assumed in the list.

Except that Free Silvers is not the same as "we're not recruiting them". And I think this list has enough bullshit tiers without adding another one.

[grandjackal]

Well, you get a Steel Bow for free (several, in fact) quite early on, and the cost of +4mt is 500%, which is 4235. At worst, if we end up selling two Silver Bows to pay for it, which is the absolute stupidest way to evaluate it's cost, it's costing us 2135 gold, still less than the cost of a stat booster.

The Steel Bow being argued here is a +5. You get a single free Steel that has max uses to forge (since the previous one will have most likely been used a few times), of which you equally get a free Silver bow, and still for the price of a +5 Steel I could just give 2 scrolls ot Sirius and Minerva, and on top of it buy another Silver. Hell, you get a free scroll the chapter the weapon becomes available both getting for free and to buy.

You cannot arm three people with silver bows because even if they grew on trees, lots of people lack bow rank. In fact, the only person who's anywhere on the tier list who has enough initial bow rank to use those Silvers is Jeorge.

You get a free Scroll chapter 7, and buying another is innocent enough. Even if you wish to wait, you can get one chapter 11 (though I'd still want one for that chapter specifically due to the nature of it). So you don't even need to buy two of them. Boosters practically grow on trees on this game, and no one wants to use them. Could we change that, please?

Except that Free Silvers is not the same as "we're not recruiting them". And I think this list has enough bullshit tiers without adding another one.

It might as well be, and I don't see why you think it's bullshit. It's the most honest thing I've ever seen on a list. It stops the "Is Meg or Lyre worse?" arguments, which would end up working for basically 80% of the cast.

[Colonel M]

I don't get how difficult the concept of this bow is.

- Forge a Steel Bow, any of our randoms reclassed to Sniper and Horseman can use the bow effectively.

- Give two Arms Scrolls to someone, and practically only two units can use a Silver Bow, and Horseman Sirius is left with Steel to work his bow up back to Silver.

Idungeddit.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

I don't get how difficult the concept of this bow is.

- Forge a Steel Bow, any of our randoms reclassed to Sniper and Horseman can use the bow effectively.

- Give two Arms Scrolls to someone, and practically only two units can use a Silver Bow, and Horseman Sirius is left with Steel to work his bow up back to Silver.

Idungeddit.

Well apparently I'm speaking Swedish, so let me clarify in one sentence.

I am not spending 7K on what is ultimately a luxury item.

And what the shit is this "only two people can use silver bows with the arms scroll"? Are you really implying that we're gonna have just generally anyone become an archer? Why? That's just dumb, especially since I can give two said units an item and they're nearly master class bow users.

I am not budging on this subject, so if you guys want to continue blowing money out your ass for dumb reasons, then fine. That's your choice to set money on fire.

[Anouleth]

The Steel Bow being argued here is a +5. You get a single free Steel that has max uses to forge (since the previous one will have most likely been used a few times), of which you equally get a free Silver bow, and still for the price of a +5 Steel I could just give 2 scrolls ot Sirius and Minerva, and on top of it buy another Silver. Hell, you get a free scroll the chapter the weapon becomes available both getting for free and to buy.

That's dumb. Nobody is arguing for a +5 Steel. Dark Sage says he meant +4. Who is saying +5. Except you, obviously.

Strawman the Strawman Strawman.

You get a free Scroll chapter 7, and buying another is innocent enough. Even if you wish to wait, you can get one chapter 11 (though I'd still want one for that chapter specifically due to the nature of it). So you don't even need to buy two of them. Boosters practically grow on trees on this game, and no one wants to use them. Could we change that, please?

I don't really care about your stat booster crusade, but I think the extra ~1000 cost of buying a +4 Steel Bow forge is pretty decent given that it's useful basically forever, we're getting a Silver Bow 7 chapters early, and a Silver Bow that can actually be used by non-Jeorge people.

It's certainly not "ridiculous" like you claim. It's well within the bounds of consideration. Oh, maybe it's not super dondon optimal or whatever, but it's applicable to the list.

It might as well be, and I don't see why you think it's bullshit. It's the most honest thing I've ever seen on a list. It stops the "Is Meg or Lyre worse?" arguments, which would end up working for basically 80% of the cast.

And yet we haven't had any Midia versus Sheema epic showdowns, so it seems like this is a solution in search of a problem. Free Silvers is already explicitly unordered, so why would anyone even into argue that?

[grandjackal]

That's dumb. Nobody is arguing for a +5 Steel. Dark Sage says he meant +4. Who is saying +5. Except you, obviously.

Strawman the Strawman Strawman.

Fine, +4, it's still a luxury item.

And yet we haven't had any Midia versus Sheema epic showdowns, so it seems like this is a solution in search of a problem. Free Silvers is already explicitly unordered, so why would anyone even into argue that?

Precisely!

[Anouleth]

Fine, +4, it's still a luxury item.

I dunno, I think it's useful. Maybe not optimal, but being able to blick Dracodudes is useful. And the 1/2 a stat booster we miss out on (by which I mean that we have to wait a chapter to get it) is not exactly super OMG clutch either.

[grandjackal]

I dunno, I think it's useful. Maybe not optimal, but being able to blick Dracodudes is useful. And the 1/2 a stat booster we miss out on (by which I mean that we have to wait a chapter to get it) is not exactly super OMG clutch either.

It's nice, but hardly necessary, and that's my point. It's uses are rather situational, and it's cost for such a thing is silly. If I could have boosters that make a melee character more effective on enemy phase (that is, actually be able to have a significant enemy phase), then it's automatically more useful than one shot a player phase bow.

Some boosts might not be super clutch, but I am simply arguing you could proably put that kind of money to more effective use.

[dondon151]

i don't think you get it. any player who doesn't have absurdly blessed units or a ridiculous MU needs the steel bow forge. you don't really have a way to do chapter 2 without it. it's so useful in numerous circumstances early on not only because of OHKOing dracos, but you can also reclass sirius to sniper or horseman and he still has a strong option to use.

plus grandjackal doesn't have a point here. he just wants to arbitrarily deny some units the steel bow forge, which would make them a lot less useful. he doesn't have alternative suggestions about what to do with the spare cash other than some hand-wavy stat boosters bullshit that we don't even need that early in the game.

btw the steel bow forge makes up 2500G in its cost in chapter 11 by allowing caeda to grab an extra stat booster from the desert after recruiting jake, and the remaining ~5000G of the cost of a +5 MT steel bow forge is equivalent to 2 arms scrolls. so there you go: a +5 MT steel bow forge saves you money.

[eclipse]

But we're talking about a +4 forge, which should be cheaper.

[Dark Sage]

Some boosts might not be super clutch, but I am simply arguing you could proably put that kind of money to more effective use.

What type of boosts are more effective than making a Steel Bow forge? You have not shown this at all.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Tyrant Sage

[Parrhesia]

Well, worst case scenario, the more expensive forge STILL saves money. What extra does the +5 kill, is it so that Jake can slaughter that wyvern boss on his join chapter or something?

[grandjackal]

How does one say that you need to be blessed to not need the forge, then turn around and say that stat boosters are hand wavy bullshit which would fix the whole needing to be blessed problem?

Ya know what? Fine. Have your dumbass forge. I'm just not going to act like it's this all important thing that saves the world early on, because it still just seems like a useless piece of luxury.

[dondon151]

Well, worst case scenario, the more expensive forge STILL saves money. What extra does the +5 kill, is it so that Jake can slaughter that wyvern boss on his join chapter or something?

yes; ryan/gordin also need fewer str procs to OHKO the chapter 2 boss with a +5 forge

How does one say that you need to be blessed to not need the forge, then turn around and say that stat boosters are hand wavy bullshit which would fix the whole needing to be blessed problem?

i don't get what you are saying. you need more than 3 stat boosters to be "blessed" for chapter 2.

Edited June 22, 2012 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

i don't get what you are saying. you need more than 3 stat boosters to be "blessed" for chapter 2.

15K, you have access to 6 for chapter 2, not 3, and you even have access to 4 with your starting 10K. I only brought up 3 because that was around equal to the cost of a +5 forge (which I originally assumed because I thought that's what I read. If someone edited hte post, then whoops). You can't possibly tell me you can't work with 6 boosters in some form.

[dondon151]

15K, you have access to 6 for chapter 2, not 3, and you even have access to 4 with your starting 10K. I only brought up 3 because that was around equal to the cost of a +5 forge (which I originally assumed because I thought that's what I read. If someone edited hte post, then whoops). You can't possibly tell me you can't work with 6 boosters in some form.

okay, then buy 3 stat boosters and make the steel bow forge. what's the problem, mister? you don't need any stat boosters to get minimum turncounts on any earlygame chapters - just the forge. save stat boosters for later when it becomes clearer what stats are lagging behind on certain characters and when you really need them. it's not like you're particularly tight on money.

[grandjackal]

okay, then buy 3 stat boosters and make the steel bow forge. what's the problem, mister? you don't need any stat boosters to get minimum turncounts on any earlygame chapters - just the forge. save stat boosters for later when it becomes clearer what stats are lagging behind on certain characters and when you really need them. it's not like you're particularly tight on money.

I don't see how the forge saves anything of significance, but fine.

Maybe I was just overanalyzing numbers again, because 6 boosters sounds like it should do some serious stuff, especially when you consider the rainbow potion. Like...That's around 20 Def and 45 HP on Draco Arran. That's 7RKO for the most part. That is an actually significant enemy phase. Or don't get 3 shields for a Wing and something else, which is still 5RKOd and can actually one round dracos.

I know it's dumb to overthink with Arran of all characters, but come on. When you can have up to +6 of two stats, I'm going to overthink things.

...Any ideas what to do with these 3 to 6 boosters? I know a Wing would do Rody or even Draug some good (since Draug is on the cusp, and the wing and potion can let him do things like double Dracos, doesn't take exp like Rody). But not wanting to overspend wings that early, any other thoughts? Like with Dracoshields and Robes, since eventually durability becomes wasted so you might as well use them early to make the most of them?

...Also if a +4 (so if the archers DO get Str procs), that's 4 boosters rather than 3, and would need like...Another 1400 for a 5th. I usually sell Vulns, but then again I dunno if you guys use them, and I don't thinkt here's enough for 1400.

[Colonel M]

Maybe I was just overanalyzing numbers again, because 6 boosters sounds like it should do some serious stuff, especially when you consider the rainbow potion. Like...That's around 20 Def and 45 HP on Draco Arran. That's 7RKO for the most part. That is an actually significant enemy phase. Or don't get 3 shields for a Wing and something else, which is still 5RKOd and can actually one round dracos.

I know it's dumb to overthink with Arran of all characters, but come on. When you can have up to +6 of two stats, I'm going to overthink things.

Please don't do it on Arran of all people. Let's remember this guy has almost no growths to talk about and a Luck stat of fucking 4.

[Dark Sage]

I propose Ryan>Linde. Linde just sux too much.

[grandjackal]

Please don't do it on Arran of all people. Let's remember this guy has almost no growths to talk about and a Luck stat of fucking 4.

I know I know, I've come down from it anyways.

As a note, talked it with the don, and I dunno his thoughts other than he would prefer ot sit on money if he doesn't need it. Cool in real life, but in this game it's kinda pointless since we can't build interest with it and retire some point down the line in decent luxury. However, I kinda came to the conclusion that you don't ever really uh...Need to buy the boosters aside from the occasional wing for characters that actually need it. But at the same time, that's a lot of money not...doing much of anything really.

So since no one needs anything for the sake of short turning save a couple rare instances...What people would simply just WANT them? Like Catria with drops or shiznit like that? Any other forges like maybe the Rapier? I mean if we can't short turn any further and still have all this money, we can still make things more convenient, yeah?