H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Cool your heels guys, don't make this personal.

Rody is a weird case. He's objectively worse than Luke at pretty much everything, as he needs 10 levels just to tie him in Speed and will lose in everything forever. Cecile and Draug definitely don't have this problem, and they should probably go up. Honestly? Rody should probably drop to the tier below- he's "usable" but in order to use him you need to be denied at least one of Cecile, Draug, or Luke, all of which are much better at the levels in which he is most in need of EXP. Minerva doesn't deny you another Altean Knight, she just shows up and hits stuff with Hauteclere. This happens to be really useful, simply because she brings a hard to achieve level of offense right off the bat, and doesn't have terrible growths from there. Rody needs about 10-12 levels just to catch up to Minerva Speed-wise, and a lot more time defensively.

Really, the biggest problem with Rody is that his use mostly locks you out of other better characters, which is a big problem. If Rody must be > Minerva, I will remind that Minerva is dropping to the top of Upper Mid, and I would suggest that Rody do it alongside her.

[Narga_Rocks]

Tyrant Sage, I'm not going to bother editing out the bad part of your post. If you want most of your stuff said, retype but play nice.

[Paperblade]

That's ridiculous, if Luke didn't exist, Rody would easily be crushing Minerva no contest. Why is the existence of Luke such a huge point in Minerva's favor? I sincerely doubt that Luke is greater than like 5-10% better than Rody.

By that logic, Frey-Barst should be below Gordin because using them makes it harder/impossible to use Cain, who is better, while Gordin doesn't.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Paperblade

[eclipse]

Realistically speaking, how high would Rody be when Minerva joins?

[Silith]

I have a question about the "free silvers" tier.

I understand their position but are they really the bottom of the barrel?

Units like Matthis, Radd and bantu seem totally awfull in FE:12 and to me seem like they have less possible use then the "free silvers" guys.

So I wanted to take it from 2 perspectives.

Would a unit with 1 HP and 0 in all other stats be just as good if it brought along the silver weapon?

If you have a free unit slot open and you could only field a "free silvers" guy in it would they be of negative usability more often then not?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Read the OP for the description of "Free Silvers".

As for Rody vs. Minerva, I'm not having that conversation. I already said I don't really want Rody below Minerva (this weird train of thought comes from Grandjackal), but it is rather clear that Rody's serious "being worse than the other alt-cavs at a point in the game where every point counts" problem hurts him a lot. Cecile has Lady Sword and lots of Speed, but defensive issues. Draug has crazy bases but a high base level and iffy defensive growths. Luke is just solid all-around. What does Rody really bring to the table compared to these three, and why shouldn't his significantly mathematically worse stats still earn him a slot in the same tier?

I want Rody above Minerva at the top of Upper Mid. That's all.

I'll post a "projected" updated tier list here tomorrow for people to talk about.

[Paperblade]

Okay, look at it this way:

Why is Luke>Rody an advantage in Draug's favor? Or Cecille's favor? Do you really think that Luke's minor early game lead is worthy of a tier gap and several units between him and Rody?

[Anouleth]

Cool your heels guys, don't make this personal.

Rody is a weird case. He's objectively worse than Luke at pretty much everything, as he needs 10 levels just to tie him in Speed and will lose in everything forever.

Actually, Rody ties Luke in Speed at level 8 and he only loses by 1 in attack. Maybe I'm missing something, but being able to wield a Javelin is also useful. So I don't really see any justification for a tier gap between him and Luke.

Cecile and Draug definitely don't have this problem, and they should probably go up. Honestly? Rody should probably drop to the tier below- he's "usable" but in order to use him you need to be denied at least one of Cecile, Draug, or Luke, all of which are much better at the levels in which he is most in need of EXP. Minerva doesn't deny you another Altean Knight, she just shows up and hits stuff with Hauteclere. This happens to be really useful, simply because she brings a hard to achieve level of offense right off the bat, and doesn't have terrible growths from there. Rody needs about 10-12 levels just to catch up to Minerva Speed-wise, and a lot more time defensively.

But that's specious logic. Training any of the Alteans will "deny" you another Altean, and none of them are that much better than each other. Should we drop all of them, because technically, any of them is easily replaceable by the others?

Would a unit with 1 HP and 0 in all other stats be just as good if it brought along the silver weapon?

If you have a free unit slot open and you could only field a "free silvers" guy in it would they be of negative usability more often then not?

Of course not. Even Midia can run around throwing Javelins. Or you can theoretically reclass anyone in the game to Curate. Or, as has been noted, anyone with a bow rank and a pulse can engage flying enemies. It's just that these "contributions" are so small as to be effectively worthless, that they are completely replacable, by almost anyone in the game, and aren't really worth discussing.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Anouleth

[-Cynthia-]

But that's specious logic. Training any of the Alteans will "deny" you another Altean, and none of them are that much better than each other. Should we drop all of them, because technically, any of them is easily replaceable by the others?

Well alternatively one could look at it as Minerva showing up promoted with good weapon ranks+ decent bases is a bonus in her favor compared to all the units requiring training. Seems to me this has worked out for units in other tier lists- Ross is better than Dozla when trained, but Dozla is usually ranked higher for instance.

Edited January 16, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Adding to that, Minerva has the option of flight, which means she can reach places faster than most. The only way Rody's flying is if we promote him and reclass to Dracoknight.

[LeaderR Elliot]

Well alternatively one could look at it as Minerva showing up promoted with good weapon ranks+ decent bases is a bonus in her favor compared to all the units requiring training. Seems to me this has worked out for units in other tier lists- Ross is better than Dozla when trained, but Dozla is usually ranked higher for instance.

But Do minerva bases qualify to that status? Looking at her bases all I can see is that with RP she avoids being doubled by Flying dragons on chapter 11.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Adding to that, Minerva has the option of flight, which means she can reach places faster than most. The only way Rody's flying is if we promote him and reclass to Dracoknight.

A Rody that is used is likely to promote at or around the time that Minerva shows up, or a little later (probably around Ch11/12). In fact, this is one of the few points in his favor- as a Lance user primarily, he's in a better position than Luke to go Dracoknight on promotion, due to Lance rank.

This argument is weird though. The problem for Rody is that he is simply worse than the other Altean Knights throughout most of the game, and considering that Prologue EXP is fairly limited (and main-game performance is largely based on ability to get Prologue EXP), you don't have enough EXP to effectively use more than 2 of the Altean Knights. Additionally, Luke's lower Speed growth is offset significantly by his sword access sending him into higher-growth classes like Mercenary and Myrmidon. If Rody wants to leverage his Lance access he has to stick to comparatively less effective classes (Cavalier has awful growths across the board, unfortunately). Rody "can" go Pirate, but so can Luke, and Luke gets more out of it since he wants to build D axes for Hand Axe access as a Hero. Cecile has Pegasus Knight access if she wants Javelins, and has Lady Sword access, which is basically a super-early Silver Sword that she can use without the rank. Draug has the bases to be the boss, so only his low defensive growths and questionable base strength growth really hold him back, but both of those can be dealt with easily, and he doesn't have huge problems getting levels.

[Aircalipoor]

How well is Rodys performance in the mid and end game comparing to Luke/Cecille/Draug? Does he has a significant lead in durability or is his lance rank and ability to OHKO mounted units cool enough to outclass them? Would he even be a better lance user than Palla/Caeda? (I don´t know how useful a paladin/draco-knight is in mid/end-game in an efficiency run!)

If his mid/end game performance compensates for his average early game performance, then I would rank him above Minerva.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Aircalipoor

[Anouleth]

Well alternatively one could look at it as Minerva showing up promoted with good weapon ranks+ decent bases is a bonus in her favor compared to all the units requiring training. Seems to me this has worked out for units in other tier lists- Ross is better than Dozla when trained, but Dozla is usually ranked higher for instance.

So does that mean that Minerva should be above all three Altean cavs? Even though the Altean cavs have earlygame, and nobody is in any doubt that if you take earlygame into account, the cavs are indeed better than Minerva, it's just that their earlygame contributions are mutually exclusive and thus cancel each other out?

Well alternatively one could look at it as Minerva showing up promoted with good weapon ranks+ decent bases is a bonus in her favor compared to all the units requiring training. Seems to me this has worked out for units in other tier lists- Ross is better than Dozla when trained, but Dozla is usually ranked higher for instance.

So then, should Minerva be above all of them?

The problem with Ross isn't that he needs to be trained: it's more that you can't really train him to a reasonable level before Chapter 11. It's tough enough to get him to level 10 once, let alone twice. And some might call it bad logic to say that Rody is a negative in earlygame, because it implies that any character that isn't "optimal" is a negative. Leonardo is the worst unit in FE10 earlygame, but he's not a negative. Lot isn't exactly great in the earlygame of FE6, but that doesn't make him a negative. Rody has prologue contributions and contributes all throughout the first eight chapters of FE12. According to Grandjackal, he's not as good as Luke, so it's worthless; not just worthless, in fact, existing over that span is a negative because we could have used someone slightly better.

How well is Rodys performance in the mid and end game comparing to Luke/Cecille/Draug? Does he has a significant lead in durability or is his lance rank and ability to OHKO mounted units cool enough to outclass them? Would he even be a better lance user than Palla/Caeda? (I don´t know how useful a paladin/draco-knight is in mid/end-game in an efficiency run!)

If his mid/end game performance compensates for his average early game performance, then I would rank him above Minerva.

How does Rody being better or worse than Luke in the lategame affect whether Rody is better or worse than Minerva? Why does Minerva somehow get to take credit for Luke being a great unit?

MODEDIT: you saw nothing

Edited January 16, 2013 by Integrity

[nflchamp]

As stated (somewhat) by Anouleth, the reason the exp argument works with Ross is because I get nothing out of Ross. He doesn't bring anything to the table immediately and he doesn't become good fast enough by throwing exp into him. Since he doesn't do anything with the exp and isn't helping now, I might as well use someone else. Effectively, if Ross is beating Dozla statistically I've slowed down to use Ross to the point where it's no longer called 'efficient'.

Rody is a different case. Rody can contribute and get exp well within the confines of 'efficient' play. He's not optimal, but it isn't like I have to suddenly start doing things completely and utterly differently to work him in.

[Dark Sage]

Not to mention a lot of the arguments don't actually make much sense. Like how Rody matching Minerva's stats when he arrives apparently being a bad thing. It's not and here's why. If Rody is performing identically to Minerva when she joins and overtakes her later and is still available early on (all of which nobody denies), then Rody is definitely a better unit. It's true Rody took exp earlier in the game, but Rody was a contributing member of the army so it's not like we had to do anything unreasonable to get him that exp. In addition, people bang on about how Rody is sooo much worse than Luke but at like 8/0, Rody ties Luke in durability and AS and only loses in one point of attack (but has Javelin access unlike Luke) so they're performing roughly identically. Sure Rody is worse than Luke, for all of two fucking chapters crimea river.

Also Rody is already punished for being worse than other Altean Knights by being below them. By dropping him to Upper Mid, you are basically punishing him twice for not being the absolute best. Under the logic that Rody is a negative because he's not allowing a slightly better unit to be deployed, it basically sounds like Rody should never even be given a deployment slot and that creates a lot of implications for the rest of the list. You might as well toss Ogma and the growth units to Bottom tier while you're at it. Really you might as well argue Minerva>Catria. Because hurr Catria needs exp to be better than Minerva.

In addition, you guys aren't even telling the truth about the cost of Rody's exp gain. dondon, Paperblade, SDS, and I have all confirmed that a non Luke Altean cav could come out of the Prologue at around the same level that Luke would (in Cecile's case, maybe a level lower because she actually kind of blows there). Hell, PKL was able to train Luke and Ryan while SDS was able to train both Luke and Ryan in their playthroughs. You know what that means? It means Rody isn't actually taking that much experience to begin with. If you can get away with training two of these units, then who gives a fuck about how much exp Rody takes?

(Also Cecile is worse than Rody but that's for another day).

[-Cynthia-]

In addition, you guys aren't even telling the truth about the cost of Rody's exp gain. dondon, Paperblade, SDS, and I have all confirmed that a non Luke Altean cav could come out of the Prologue at around the same level that Luke would (in Cecile's case, maybe a level lower because she actually kind of blows there). Hell, PKL was able to train Luke and Ryan while SDS was able to train both Luke and Ryan in their playthroughs. You know what that means? It means Rody isn't actually taking that much experience to begin with. If you can get away with training two of these units, then who gives a fuck about how much exp Rody takes?

(Also Cecile is worse than Rody but that's for another day).

I think how we clear Prologue is very important here, going very slowly Rody could be level 6 with D swords, on an efficient clear Rody might come out of Prologue at level 3 which makes him much more of a chore to train.

[Paperblade]

I did it with Knight MU who is pretty bad about sharing EXP since the easiest way to use him is to just throw him at enemies and watch them bounce off his skyhigh defense

also I went out of my way to feed kills to Est

[Dark Sage]

I think how we clear Prologue is very important here, going very slowly Rody could be level 6 with D swords, on an efficient clear Rody might come out of Prologue at level 3 which makes him much more of a chore to train.

Here's something I'm curious about. We often assume Luke is around level 6/7 when coming out of the prologue when going efficiently. So why can't we assume the same about Rody when they're the same fucking unit pretty much (except Rody uses Steel Lances instead of Steel Swords)?

[-Cynthia-]

I did it with Knight MU who is pretty bad about sharing EXP since the easiest way to use him is to just throw him at enemies and watch them bounce off his skyhigh defense

also I went out of my way to feed kills to Est

Guess I'll take your word for it. I ended up with a level 3 Luke by P-8 with the only other units being trained were Knight MU and Caeda. Dropped Luke for P-8 because Cain's bases were better.

Edited January 17, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Espinosa]

I also don't see much difference between Luke and Rody in the Prologue chapters. And I think the unstated rule in this tier discussion is that we're not pressed for absolute lowest turns in Prologue (so 7/0 Rody is possible with C lances or D swords depending on what you want to do with him).

[Paperblade]

I dunno how feasible C Lances is, the only unit I ever get to get weapon rank up in Prologue is Wrys (who cares) and MU, so you'd have to have a crappy MU or be not using him for some weird reason, but having a bad MU is the corner case where Luke's bases really matter

[Espinosa]

I can think of just one map in the Prologue where I could've shaved off an extra turn (the last one), and Wrys was pretty far from D staves there. I didn't field him in every map though (sometimes having an extra combat unit was more important). D to C lances is 23 rounds of combat, which isn't unlikely in Rody's 6 chapters of Prologue existence, especially if he can finish somebody off and then counterattack on enemy phase (never more than one enemy at a time but nobody else can boast better really). Emerging from the Prologue with a well-trained Rody also pretty much requires less-than-perfect turn counts in some Prologue chapters (as fielding him over the likes of Merric, Ogma et al is impractical and hurts turns) so he might as well acquire C lances in the process.

And even if he fails to, I guess it doesn't matter a whole lot. If Rody gets to D swords, is using him as a Merc preferred to Pirate!Rody beginning with chapter 1?

[-Cynthia-]

And even if he fails to, I guess it doesn't matter a whole lot. If Rody gets to D swords, is using him as a Merc preferred to Pirate!Rody beginning with chapter 1?

Well part of issue with going Pirate is the limited number of Pirates we get in the game- we only have one Pirate slot until Darros and Draug and MU can make good Pirates.

Pirate is more damaging, but Mercenary is slightly faster. With D Swords, Myrmidon is also an option if Rody needs the speed.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

You can get both Luke and Rody to level 6 with 100% efficient prologue- it requires pretty much ignoring any of the other non-MU units (except maybe Sheeda somewhat), which heavily hampers Cecile and Draug's ability to be effective after Prologue. Granted, Luke wants to be a higher level than 6, and Rody most heavily impacts Luke's performance since he's taking EXP during the time before you have access to either Draug or Cecile. The worst part though, was getting out of Prologue with an average level 6 Rody and having him just sputter out around ch4/5.