H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[grandjackal]

That is (more than likely) the case; however, if that were the reason, than Linde would be lower because other good combat units that actually can do more than "chip" exists, therefore Linde doesn't.

I know, it's why I think Maric could have an honest shot as well. Dunno about above Linde though.

Also how's the Shining Force edge of things? I kind of glanced at your blog. Disappointed at your thoughts on Slade.

Well I gave it another go because I did a lot of things wrong to be honest. Can talk about it on AIM if you want, but you are NEVER ON RAGRAHTHREUGTG

[Colonel M]

I know, it's why I think Maric could have an honest shot as well. Dunno about above Linde though.

I think this largely depends on what we value more - nuking flying enemies or massive damage early on in the game when some people are iffy on the struggling / ORKOing range. Considering Excalibur is almost always useful, you would almost think that Merric would erk out a win over Linde. Still, I guess Linde's earlygame clutch... if you will could help keep her above Merric.

It's just one example more or less. Bias is nuts on these things sometimes.

Well I gave it another go because I did a lot of things wrong to be honest. Can talk about it on AIM if you want, but you are NEVER ON RAGRAHTHREUGTG

I've been really busy with my mom losing her job, school, work, and (sadly?) WoW / LoL. I'll hop on when I get the chance, though.

Also let's not use this thread as me claiming a guilt trip; let's make sure we focus on the tier list, lol.

[-Cynthia-]

I suppose with Merric vs. Linde, Merric's contributions are largely overshadowed by Etzel (needing a Master Seal and lower staff rank vs....Marth support) while Linde's the only one who can do heavy damage with Aura in the early chapters. I don't think using either of them as Gharnef killers is advisable, having Malicia do it is the most resource efficient and reliable way IMO.

Edited December 26, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[Colonel M]

I suppose with Merric vs. Linde, Merric's contributions are largely overshadowed by Etzel (needing a Master Seal and lower staff rank vs....Marth support) while Linde's the only one who can do heavy damage with Aura in the early chapters. I don't think using either of them as Gharnef killers is advisable, having Malicia do it is the most resource efficient and reliable way IMO.

Another huge problem with Aura, though, is that it has limited uses unless you're stupid enough to use Hammerne on it. But let's face it - there are a lot of characters that can still do heavy damage in early chapters to the point where Linde might only help on small occasions. I don't think I ever needed her past Chapter... 4 even.

[Dark Sage]

You really wanna give exp to Gordon or Warren over Linde? Now that's just stubborn, and borderline zealously worshipping a single forge. Fact is that if Linde is just as helpful against the dracos as the archers are, but Linde is more effective generally everywhere else, so...

Experience is only a means to an end. You know this as well as I do. The point is that if you get the same result by using other units, then the only net benefit that Linde brings is getting more exp for herself which doesn't actually count as a benefit to the team.

You never answered this, by the way.

I was under the impression that crossing the bridge was less reliable and safe than taking the long way around. You also miss out on a Hammer this way.

Define other units, because I sure don't give a damn about taking exp away from Gordon.

The idea is simple:

1. Units like Luke and Catria have some trouble getting to promotion in time

2. You and SDS asserted that Linde has no issues getting to promotion

3. Since Luke and Catria are much better units than Linde, I can only conclude that you are unconsciously sandbagging their exp gain in favor of Linde.

Because as we know, they are the only enemy in the game. I mean it's not like they stop appearing after chapter 5 up until chapter 9 where we're infinitely better equipped to deal with them.

Its like what dondon said, Ryan and Linde are about on par with most enemies, except Ryan is infinitely better against Dracoknights and Wyverns while Linde is only better against armors.

Having to keep in range of your healers every turn actually sounds like an awful strategy. In fact if you have to do that to efficiently do things, it usually means you have too much melee. Generally the better idea is to be able to eliminate threats immediately during your turn or positioning yourself to best be able to eliminate any problems on your turn. Goes without saying that this game is more player phase oriented than enemy phase. While this is good news for Ryan, the fact Linde still has that kind of flexibility while still doing solid damage (12 magic might is still good, resire or no) is still an advantage that isn't being given a lot of credit here.

In practice, Linde needs to get healed if she wants to have more than one EP. You also have a multitude of ways to keep your units healed. Oftentimes, the action takes place near the starting position, so units like Etzel and Malliesia can still reach and heal people. You also have access to Physic for long distance healing. It is also ok for units to use Vluneraries and position themselves for the enemy phase. You do not really need to turtle to get your units healed and an enemy phase is still important. Its true that a good player phase edges out a good enemy phase but a good enemy phase is still important. If Linde wants to get in on that, she needs to be healed or she basically functions like Ryan (who is not actually that great a unit).

Btw, this flexibility stops working once you hit the valley because the Dragons have 1-2 range and dish out high amounts of damage. Dragons are also fast so she can't double them (actually, she's at risk of getting doubled). She's in especially deep shit once the Ice Dragons come in with their 17 resistance. Aura is probably used up by now so Linde's damage output against them is pretty bad.

Luke and Rody as pirates have the problem of accuracy, speed reliance (just because there are 10 AS ones does not magically fix the problem), lack of 1-2 range, and cannot do anything to the second set of dracos without healing. I dunno where you got the idea Draug could do it at base, and so what if Catria can, why have her eat the attack in the first place? Here's yet another thought. Linde chips the draco, Catria kills, Linde chips another, someone else gets the kill. That way, Catria and whoever this other person are are fresh to help deal with the next set of dracos.

Ok, so remove Luke and Rody from the list, you still have Catria and Draug who can do the job. Draug btw can do it at base (he has 13 AS as a Pirate and a rainbow potion use bumps it up to 15 AS) no problem. You also have MU who can do it to. My point is that you can use other units and get the same result as if Linde was there. Yes they need healing before baiting the next batch of Dracos but who gives a fuck? You have Malleisia near the starting position and the other person can use a Vulnerary.

By the way, as to why I keep asking you if you take the bridge or if you go the long way around is actually crucial here. Because if you take the bridge which is in truth much shorter, then you don't have to divulge a portion of your force to follow Marth's ass halfway across the map, and merely have to be prepared near the bridge for when the dragons at the mountain fly at you while Marth is going to fetch the key.

I'm pretty sure the bridge is less safe than taking the long way around and you still need to recruit Julian so you need to go to his village, double back, and then have Marth seize. This probably results in saving 3-4 turns I guess.

Problem being that after the start if we're constantly moving, then we do not have that luxury because eventually, our staff users fall behind. In order to satisfy the need of healthy bodies later, near the start we would like the help we can get in avoiding taking unnecessary damage. Thus, why I keep saying avoiding the need to be healed in the first place is a good thing.

Yes and you have Ryan who can do the same thing. You also have Physic staves to heal people once your combatants have gone ahead and as I've said a thousand times before, you still have vulneraries. And besides, if the healers fall behind, then Linde sure as fuck does, especially late in the game when she ties them for move after promotion and the maps are bigger.

11,760 gold for that]/b]? Let's assume we got this dumbass bow forge first off, with +5. 5775, so we're down to 4225. You get a Bullion from Guile in 4, that brings us up to 9225. That forge can't numerically exist in conjunction with the other. So we lower the bow to +4. After the bullion that's 11,150. STILL not enough. +3 then...None of the archers can OHKO dracos with this, since you'd need 12 Str, or 11 with C rank. That simply isn't happening.

You actually have plenty of money to make both forges. First of all, you get a bullion in Chapter 1 so you have around 15,000 to spend. The +5 forge brings you down about 9225 but if you're Ryan is sufficiently trained enough, you can get away with a +4 forge which leaves us with 10765. You get a second Bullion in Chapter 4 which results in our gold reserves ranging around 14225-15765. The +4 Wing Spear forge costs 6160, so after the forge, we'll have 8065-9605. Now once you factor in money that goes to Javelins/Hand Axes, Arena training etc, you're probably shaving off like 200-4000 gold, but you restore your coffers right after Chapter 6 because you get a Large Bullion and a Secret Book. Chapter 7 also has a Bullion but even if you don't get that, you can still raise money by selling useless shit like Fire tomes and the Firestone in Chapter 8.

On my current file, I'm on Chapter 9 with around 11670 in my bank and I was still able to make both forges. They were even more useful in my file because I had no Rainbow Potion to work with.

Secondly, again, this isn't a necessary weapon to deal with Lang. It's useful against him, but I wouldn't blow all my money out on one guy. Good god, no wonder everyone is claiming you're "broke" in this game.

dondon's 6 turn strategy requires the forge be made. Furthermore, the forge also allows Caeda to OHKO armors. This is really useful and has both offensive and defensive applications to her. The forge is also useful for helping her ORKO the Horsemen and Paladins and Generals from Chapter 15 and on.

Well, let's think it through. Chapter 5, the enemy in a way comes in waves, namely the mage wave first, with cavaliers nearby form the left. Let's say on the turn a mage attacks Linde, and she counters with generally anything. She can still attack another cav on the player phase on the basis that she has range still. Yeah it's basic, but I suppose the long and short of it is that now thinking about it she shouldn't HAVE to take 2 attacks in a row.

Clearing a path is suddenly janitorial work in a map where waves of reinforcements are up my ass almost immediately? Especially in a map where I would like at least some key bodies to be healthy when tackling the throne. That's a pretty sore lack of appreciation.

dondon's 6 turn strategy does not require Linde at all. You can have Cecile/Luke and Caeda each KO an armor on turn one of the enemy phase and then use Mallesia and Yumina to heal them up so they can kill the remaining armors. You can then use Sirius or MU or Catria or Palla to KO the mages, aka perform cleanup duty. Really what Linde would be doing would be staying behind to fight off the reinforcements with Catria but that's not actually that useful (I don't think you even need Linde to do that).

A lot of mages you shouldn't really have to deal with until later into the map since a good chunk of them aggro Etzel, which is bad since you want him closer to Marth so you can recruit him before the throne is open.

Yes I know.

As for the dracos, you ever consider maybe dealing with things on player phase 2 then? I'm not demanding you somehow reach across the map on the first turn. Honestly man, do you give things thought?

Wtf? When did I say we need to deal with them on turn 1? I don't recall saying anything of the sort.

Regardless, this whole Chapter 10 debacle is tangent to the Linde issue at hand. Linde's performance against mages is not actually that great. She fails to double them (that requires her being at like 13/0 w/Rainbow potion which is difficult, if not impossible, to achieve) so at best she's 2RKOing them, which requires either Aura or all the magic boosting shards on her w/Elfire, whereas generally your units can OHKO or ORKO them. To her credit, you can get her to be 3HKOd with res boosting shards and Pure Water but you can also get Jeorge to be 3HKOd as well as Palla, your pegasus knights, and MU, so its not actually that unique.

These sound more like reasons not to bother with the steel forge more than the Shaver. As for the Shaver, even base Linde can still 2HKO the dracos of chapter 9. She would have 21 mt from Shaver, and then 4 off her base magic, and with the 3 Res, that would be 22 of their 43-44 HP. To compare in damage rather than character, Castor has 10 Str, C rank and 24 effective might in total of 35 vs them. -10 defense, that's 25. The difference is hardly noticeable. Shaver even has 10 more crit, for what it's worth (I forget if mages can fight flying enemies in the in-base arena). Now if we're using Ryan, The difference may be more like 5 damage at most rather than 3, but again. Hardly a difference.

I don't see how it devalues the Steel Bow forge but ok.

This is also again assuming Base Linde, who by chapter 9 will not be base level. Finally, level 6 Sirius honestly does not sound completely out of the question, since he is so active in the previous chapters against big enemies+thieves bonanza in chapter 7, along with the in-base arena. Then again, I don't blow all my gold on two weapons that I ultimately don't need.

Wtf? When did I ever assume Base Linde? Please point to where I said that because I don't recall doing so at all.

Btw if Sirius gets screwed in speed by a single point (which is likely btw), he's in deep shit against the Dracos.

That's also 4 levels of exp that Linde didn't take.

You always training an Altean cav so Cecile is only taking experience from them. Though in practice, Cecile is actually saving exp because she only requies 4 levels whereas Luke and Rody require like, 5-7.

You're ignoring the fact that no matter what I do with my exp, Linde shows up capable of doing what needs to be done, if given a robe. No growths or exp required.

Ryan shows up capable doing what needs to be done and he doesn't require a Robe either. Maybe a little exp but its trivial to get him what he needs (he only needs like, 2 level's worth at minimum).

Let's say Cecile got boned a point of speed. That's a lot of eggs you put into one basket. That's a big risk you're taking. A risk that ultimately Linde doesn't push on you.

So buy a speedwing to fix Cecile's speed, what's the problem mister? You're always banging on about statboosters, this seems right up your alley.

And what if Linde gets screwed in speed later on? Now she's at greater risk of being doubled by Dragons and if she gets screwed in magic, then she has more trouble 2HKOing enemies without Aura, which is actually important since Aura only has 25 uses and the next one you get is in 20x.

Furthemore, what class are you assuming her as? Cause as a cav with the rainbow potion at that level, not only would she still double, she wouldn't even need the robe.

Ok.

Considering you are wrong about her needing the robe, all It would make her is less heal dependent, which Linde would also help you do anyways. So in Cecile's case, you can have your cake and eat it too.

Ok.

By the way, with prologue considered unconsidered in argument, Cecile if we're using her would certainly be higher than 7 by chapter 6.

I did not want to be accused of overleveling Cecile.

In any case, most of these arguments are tangent to the overall issue of Linde. There are some serious concerns untouched by this debate. Linde is bad in the valley for example. Once Linde runs out of Aura, she has issues 2HKOing anything. Even worse, dragons have 1-2 range. Furthermore, against Wyverns, Linde needs to constantly chug a rainbow potion to avoid getting doubled and she has no Excalibur access so she doesn't OHKO. She needs to be promoted to avoid getting OHKOd by Fire Dragons. She's in deep shit with Ice Dragons and she has all the same movement issues that Etzel and Wendell have, except she doesn't even have staff utility to make up for it. She also doubles jack shit.

Btw, running out of Aura is a real issue because it only has 25 uses and you don't get another one until Chapter 20x.

Also let me put this another way. I've found myself hurting for an easy way to deal with Dracoknights and Ryan and Gordin allow for this early on. In contrast, the only thing I've actually needed to deploy Linde for was for Chapter 4. I never felt like I was missing anything by not deploying her.

[Espinosa]

MU, and that's final. Out the gate, he gets supports with Luke, Rody, Ryan and Marth for the first chapters where they're all guaranteed to be (aside from Rody). Having +40 Evasion with +20 crit is no joke, especially if you can doule the likes of Dracoknights in chapter 2. Was able to get my cav to a level where as a merc he could actually double the chapter 2 boss with a rainbow potion use. With prologue and chapter 1 being nothing but axes, I actually had used swords enough that by the time I fought him, I had D rank just in time. With forests, you turn the Rube and his axe brothers into sliced bread.

But that's just one chapter, not to mention one when MU probably isn't going to rely on those bonuses to avoid being hit by attacks that 2HKO him. Sure, 45% hit rates are better than 85%, but that's still nothing to rely on. The extra crit probably doesn't matter when you're doubling too. And after this chapter and the one after it, how likely are Luke, Rody and Ryan to stay in play? Isn't it a poor investment of Bond Drop if it affects your performance in just the first couple of maps that aren't particularly complicated in the first place?

[dondon151]

you actually don't need a wing spear forge for caeda at all... it's quite pointless because it requires a lot of money to OHKO cavaliers for a short period of time and then you don't see another mounted unit until they're way out of OHKO range of a forge.

i never forged a wing spear on my playthrough, either. regardless this doesn't really help or negate dark sage's points anyway.

Edited December 26, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[PKL]

I didn't forge a Wing Spear in my playthrough either and I got through just fine. The Steel Bow forge came in handy in more than earlygame though. I only used Linde in Chapter 4 iirc. I think a Wing Spear forge would be useful for Chapter 19 though.

[Dark Sage]

Well I will admit that a Wing Spear forge is more of a luxury than a necessity early on (though its still useful). It's really more useful to help Caeda ORKO Paladins, Horsemen, and Generals later on but you could probably live without it.

[grandjackal]

I won't deal with statements about the Wing Spear, considering you already conceded to it being a luxury, so it's all good.

Experience is only a means to an end. You know this as well as I do. The point is that if you get the same result by using other units, then the only net benefit that Linde brings is getting more exp for herself which doesn't actually count as a benefit to the team.

You would have a point if this were an FE that threw actually stable units throughout the entire game, but FE12 pretty much forces you to level a team. Therefore, I don't see your point. If we're using Linde, what's wrong with her getting exp?

I was under the impression that crossing the bridge was less reliable and safe than taking the long way around. You also miss out on a Hammer this way.

The hammer is unnecessary and unless we have Fighter MU (which is not always given), no one aside from lolBord can even use it. Note that Barst has D rank. Secondly, having done the bridge route myself, I can tell you that you can break it down to a science.

The idea is simple:

1. Units like Luke and Catria have some trouble getting to promotion in time

2. You and SDS asserted that Linde has no issues getting to promotion

3. Since Luke and Catria are much better units than Linde, I can only conclude that you are unconsciously sandbagging their exp gain in favor of Linde.

I think we've all used Luke without Linde on the team before, and I can tell you that he brings nothing absurdly special to the team, and at best has to put in work to catch up to the likes of Draug or even higher being Paula, Sirius, and the like. You thought I was calling him a C student for comedic effect?

Its like what dondon said, Ryan and Linde are about on par with most enemies, except Ryan is infinitely better against Dracoknights and Wyverns while Linde is only better against armors.

I'm pretty sure for the most part, we just went over how they're nearly identical towards dracos, perhaps Linde even being better as she's not level dependent on her start (as she just needs a Robe), and the fact she can draw attention away from more prominent frontliners so that they are healthier for whatever we need them to do next. What makes Linde stand out compared to Ryan is that she can do this generally towards anything rather than just dracos, which no one else talks about as though dracos are the only enemy on the map. With that in mind, the comparison is more that Ryan is kinda sorta maybe better against dracos while Linde can do better against everything else.

In practice, Linde needs to get healed if she wants to have more than one EP. You also have a multitude of ways to keep your units healed. Oftentimes, the action takes place near the starting position, so units like Etzel and Malliesia can still reach and heal people. You also have access to Physic for long distance healing. It is also ok for units to use Vluneraries and position themselves for the enemy phase. You do not really need to turtle to get your units healed and an enemy phase is still important. Its true that a good player phase edges out a good enemy phase but a good enemy phase is still important. If Linde wants to get in on that, she needs to be healed or she basically functions like Ryan (who is not actually that great a unit).

The fact she even has an enemy phase is the point. The fact that most can't have an enemy phase without needing to be healed is true for pretty much the entire cast save for like Sirius and MU. The fact she can still function after an enemy phase is the point here. In fact, let's give an example here. She takes an enemy phase, right? Even basic Thunder, she does about what, 9 damage to the general enemy? Small? Yeah. Well on the following player phase, she moves forward around this said unit and targets with Resire. Heals 12, deals 12 to a total of 21. 21 is enough to pretty much feed the kill to anyone else if you wish. She targets some other unit with Rezire, she then has another enemy phase, no vulns or staff attention required. The fact she has Aura for her own kills is quite the bonus for her on top of this.

I can also mention a real world example. Chapter 3. The bridge. Namely the cavalier group, the last thing between you and the throne/the way north to Julian. One of the more annoying things are the javelins. With the robe, the javelin user in question would do about 19 damage to her which she would heal 12 back to bring her to 21 HP. Not only does this manage to pull an attack from a frontliner (since the AI prefers to attack for more damage rather than be smart), but this also lets her survive the Arrowspate on top of it. Furthermore, this can also let her pull in Matthis, to which she would heal more HP than he would do damage, though more importantly it would help block an attack space from the more dangerous cavaliers to attack at you. She can then Aura bomb the cav that attacker her and kill it (12+22 is 34, they have 32 HP at best so even with 1 Res on top of it, they would die), and the rest is simple.

See what I mean?

Btw, this flexibility stops working once you hit the valley because the Dragons have 1-2 range and dish out high amounts of damage. Dragons are also fast so she can't double them (actually, she's at risk of getting doubled). She's in especially deep shit once the Ice Dragons come in with their 17 resistance. Aura is probably used up by now so Linde's damage output against them is pretty bad.

I imagine you could promote her at level 15-16, her speed generally would still be safe against the likes of Flying Dragons in chapter 11 as a starter, doing between 29-31 damage with Shaver to them. Alternatively she could start with Syphon t get back 16 HP, so after their attack she would have about 27 so she could answer back to more minor enemies immediately. Syphon from another target, she can do this again. Quite great for her actually, considering mages are one of the more mobile classes here. Considering the leveling speed you have with how much exp flying dragons give and her stellar speed growth, I imagine her speed is at least manageable, and this is of course IF she is 15-16 which is worst case scenario in a sense. There is also the factor that Swordmasters also make the last stretch of this map a mess. Considering her mobility, the Def/Res gap (a whopping 6-7), and accuracy with magic, I would think any assistance there would help. Additionally, Capricorn or Aquarius can help her out, along with maybe Gemini if no one is using it. In fact, with +2 Magic, she can take a Flying Dragon attack, and then be able to do it again with another Flying Dragon immediately, if of course considering a robe.

Ice Dragons are indeed a pain, but the Def/Res gap is still in her favor similarly to Fire Dragons in that there's a 5-6 damage gap. Yes they're a lot more annoying, but most characters in general hate fighting ice dragons.

There is also the fact she still provides damage for the likes of everything else, like swordmasters and bandits and the like. Also, Dark Mages are notable. Most can't make use of Res orbs, so with the thought of the robe in mind and let's say 16/4 by chapter 13, she can have a total of 12 Res vs their lol26 magic damage. Considering she would have 40 HP with a Robe, that's a 3RKO, ignoring Resire. If she's higher leveled (possible, considering how much exp dragons give), she could even double them. Also, with a Holy Water if you so desire, that damage drops to 7. She could take a dark mage AND an Ice Dragon on the same turn.

Ok, so remove Luke and Rody from the list, you still have Catria and Draug who can do the job. Draug btw can do it at base (he has 13 AS as a Pirate and a rainbow potion use bumps it up to 15 AS) no problem. You also have MU who can do it to. My point is that you can use other units and get the same result as if Linde was there. Yes they need healing before baiting the next batch of Dracos but who gives a fuck? You have Malleisia near the starting position and the other person can use a Vulnerary.

Pirate Draug does not help much, as I have pointed what is possible with Linde up there, and everyone sucks against MU. There is also the fact that Malleisia is one person, not 3.

I'm pretty sure the bridge is less safe than taking the long way around and you still need to recruit Julian so you need to go to his village, double back, and then have Marth seize. This probably results in saving 3-4 turns I guess.

You still fight the dracos in single file waves, you still pull the draco that blocks Paula's retreat path when you open the bridge, and the cavs thanks to MU generally being a beast is doable. The fact you can have Linde do the above I mentioned probably makes it simplistic.

Yes and you have Ryan who can do the same thing. You also have Physic staves to heal people once your combatants have gone ahead and as I've said a thousand times before, you still have vulneraries. And besides, if the healers fall behind, then Linde sure as fuck does, especially late in the game when she ties them for move after promotion and the maps are bigger.

Deceptive thinking as while maps get bigger, enemies continue to act as roadblocks sine this isn't FE7. You can get away with a bit, but not with pure stupidity. Not all maps are designed to have you go in a linear path as well. Chapter 13 for example, Linde can help pull unwanted attention away from your guys as they charge a (relatively empty) space to move their way around the weaves to help Marth through the rivers towards the throne, and as pointed out can even help with dealing with one of the ice dragons that initially rush you while being able to handle the dark mages that are willing to snipe you from across it. Chapter 15 is another one. Chapter 16 is short, I could go on.

As for Physic, yes it's useful, but if I have a unt that saves me from having to use it on them, then that is a good thing.

dondon's 6 turn strategy does not require Linde at all. You can have Cecile/Luke and Caeda each KO an armor on turn one of the enemy phase and then use Mallesia and Yumina to heal them up so they can kill the remaining armors. You can then use Sirius or MU or Catria or Palla to KO the mages, aka perform cleanup duty. Really what Linde would be doing would be staying behind to fight off the reinforcements with Catria but that's not actually that useful (I don't think you even need Linde to do that).

That's a way of doing it, yes. However, is it the only way of doing it? Just cause he didn't use Linde doesn't mean she can't help. Hell, I didn't use Rody my first playthrough. He didn't help me at all. Would that be a valid argument to use against him? Hell no.

Wtf? When did I say we need to deal with them on turn 1? I don't recall saying anything of the sort.

Sorry, you mentioned EP 1, and my brain just kinda derped. It happens.

Regardless, this whole Chapter 10 debacle is tangent to the Linde issue at hand. Linde's performance against mages is not actually that great. She fails to double them (that requires her being at like 13/0 w/Rainbow potion which is difficult, if not impossible, to achieve) so at best she's 2RKOing them, which requires either Aura or all the magic boosting shards on her w/Elfire, whereas generally your units can OHKO or ORKO them. To her credit, you can get her to be 3HKOd with res boosting shards and Pure Water but you can also get Jeorge to be 3HKOd as well as Palla, your pegasus knights, and MU, so its not actually that unique.

9 levels in 7 chapters, 2 of which had dracos along with plenty of uses for her, one of which having a fire dragon (hey, who does the most damage to that thing, by the way?), and one with nothing but promoted enemies in your way, on top of the arena, and that's "impossible"? Secondly, let's assume she isn't 13. Let's say 11. She can still take a hit from them, and do enough damage that anyone with facepunching might can just straight one shot what's left, which is great because no one wants to take counters from these guys, especially when charging face first into two Worm bishops.

I forget if you have any holy water here. If you do, she can take 2 mages and not die.

I don't see how it devalues the Steel Bow forge but ok.

It's a way to show I have other options, and thus am not that dependent on it.

Wtf? When did I ever assume Base Linde? Please point to where I said that because I don't recall doing so at all.

It was only for the sake of comparison, I know you didn't assume base Linde. I only wanted to show that the Killer Bow isn't really all that much better, if at all.

Btw if Sirius gets screwed in speed by a single point (which is likely btw), he's in deep shit against the Dracos.

The arena takes your total growths and gives you stats based on that number. If topped off with Berserker levels which grants him 420% growths (along with build his axe rank for when he wants to be a Draco), that risk can be heavily minimized, especially since as a Berserker, his growth is 70% in speed.

You always training an Altean cav so Cecile is only taking experience from them. Though in practice, Cecile is actually saving exp because she only requies 4 levels whereas Luke and Rody require like, 5-7.

Not necessary in a way. I went through prologue with none of the alteans so they were at best base level or had 1 (aside from Ryan. Oddly enough, he's necessary for the lowest turncounts I've seen), and the altean cavs past prologue can serve their purposes at base for the time you have no choice.

Ryan shows up capable doing what needs to be done and he doesn't require a Robe either. Maybe a little exp but its trivial to get him what he needs (he only needs like, 2 level's worth at minimum).

The point is I can ignore Ryan and replace him with Linde, which in turn could give me potentially a stronger MU, or a stronger Luke since you seem so keen on saying how he's better than either these two. Before you mention anything else like the forge lets him still attack even though as a hunter he still can't draw dracos with 2 levels (he'd be doubled still), I still have Warren and Gordon if I have a gun to my head being forced to make that dumb forge in the first place. The fact I can replace Ryan with Linde is a strength for Linde.

So buy a speedwing to fix Cecile's speed, what's the problem mister? You're always banging on about statboosters, this seems right up your alley.

I agree, so if you're willing to give hte idea we can buy stat boosters for generally anyone, it's safe to say Linde can be one of them. Furthermore, the forge of bow steel costs around 5K, which is 2 other potential characters that fall by the wayside who, as you've been so keen to point out through your various posts, can do the same thing Linde does. So, if Linde can do what Ryan can do, and what Ryan can do is generally what everyone else can do, the fact that Ryan takes twice as much cash to do that thing compared to everyone else, that is a negative for Ryan.

And what if Linde gets screwed in speed later on? Now she's at greater risk of being doubled by Dragons and if she gets screwed in magic, then she has more trouble 2HKOing enemies without Aura, which is actually important since Aura only has 25 uses and the next one you get is in 20x.

As pointed above, she is not dependent on Aura later on. I don't recall "being screwed" as a legitimate argument. Finally, the arena can help us avoid this issue, especially since with Linde, speed is in fact her highest growth.

I did not want to be accused of overleveling Cecile.

Considering level 7 is what she needs to not get one shotted immediately in chapter 1, I'd say you had her severely underleveled. Simply saying you maaaay have overshot it.

In any case, most of these arguments are tangent to the overall issue of Linde. There are some serious concerns untouched by this debate. Linde is bad in the valley for example. Once Linde runs out of Aura, she has issues 2HKOing anything. Even worse, dragons have 1-2 range. Furthermore, against Wyverns, Linde needs to constantly chug a rainbow potion to avoid getting doubled and she has no Excalibur access so she doesn't OHKO. She needs to be promoted to avoid getting OHKOd by Fire Dragons. She's in deep shit with Ice Dragons and she has all the same movement issues that Etzel and Wendell have, except she doesn't even have staff utility to make up for it. She also doubles jack shit.

Problem answered above.

Btw, running out of Aura is a real issue because it only has 25 uses and you don't get another one until Chapter 20x.

It is of little consequence actually, because when better to use it than early on when I have nothing that comes close to that kind of damage output outside of like Arran at times? Considering her performance in the midgame is not all that dependent on it (more Resire and Shaver), we might as well use Aura while we can. If she still has it for later on though, cool then!

Also let me put this another way. I've found myself hurting for an easy way to deal with Dracoknights and Ryan and Gordin allow for this early on. In contrast, the only thing I've actually needed to deploy Linde for was for Chapter 4. I never felt like I was missing anything by not deploying her.

I've not had problems with no steel bow forge even when not using Linde, and I've also binned Ryan as soon as possible. What's your point?

[eclipse]

As I read through this, I get the feeling that this is two separate play styles. Is one truly better than the other?

[Paperblade]

Yes, mine>yours

[fatgamecat]

Yes, mine>yours

Isn't how one chooses to play a game and what constitutes "efficiency" a matter of opinion? Oh wait, this is the FE community.

[Colonel M]

Isn't how one chooses to play a game and what constitutes "efficiency" a matter of opinion? Oh wait, this is the FE community.

In theory, multiple ways of efficiency exist; hence not everything is about exactly speedrunning the game. Then again, neither is item gathering. Not like it's WoW and the like.

WRT Hammer - it can kind of be skipped, but it does make killing the boss in 3 easier as well as helps with dealing the Armor Knight slew in 3x and 6.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Tyranel M

[Peppy]

Isn't how one chooses to play a game and what constitutes "efficiency" a matter of opinion? Oh wait, this is the FE community.

Well, this is a topic that talks about efficiency over a casual playthrough soooo... that statement Paperblade says holds true for this topic.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I chatted with Sage on IRC for a while last night and we came to somewhat of a conclusion to shelf Linde at the moment since it is a bit of a "statboosters vs forges" playstyle argument.

The to-do list:

• Catria > Sirius
  
• Altean Cavs adjacent
  
• Minerva down to top of Upper Mid
  
• Arran to Unique Utility
  
• Belf / Leiden after Dragontown
  
• More investigation, preferably with actual play, on the efficacy of growth units and the possibility of applying LSBs to them in order to get them to a point where they can activate their growths, and notably which ones are effected. Likely focus on Ogma / Barst, but Cain, Frey, and Navarre are likely early enough to get a bump. 1 stat booster is the optimal amount, but if it's possible to drop 2-3 on a unit and have them excel not just early but all game long as a result, it's feasible.
  

Discuss!

[Dark Sage]

Isn't how one chooses to play a game and what constitutes "efficiency" a matter of opinion? Oh wait, this is the FE community.

Dude, Paperblade was clearly kidding.

[Blademaster!]

Isn't how one chooses to play a game and what constitutes "efficiency" a matter of opinion?

In the case of this topic, efficiency was clearly defined for arguments sake in the first post...

Also, does letting people tactically die in the prologue contribute against efficiency if you still achieve a low turn count?

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"no" but you shouldn't do it because letting people die in prologue costs you 1000 gold per body, plus you kinda need everyone you can get most of the time.

[General Horace]

this is kind of a minor nitpick, but why is bord even ranked on the list? His base stats are terrible, he costs a buttload of turns, and although C axes is nice, its the only thing he has

[Blademaster!]

letting people die in prologue costs you 1000 gold per body

Oh, I didn't know that...

[Espinosa]

I still think that efficiency essentially implies turn counts > money that doesn't help shave off turns later. Sacrificing units in the Prologue can definitely be beneficial in chapters like P-5 where the distance from the boss is technically not that big, it's just the enemies prevent you from playing too offensively. Overall, in most situations in Prologue one character can't afford to take more than one hit so having a sacrificial lamb can preserve the really worthwhile fighters for the next turn and perhaps help you cut a turn or two during the whole Prologue (losing units like Rody and Cecile until chapter 1 isn't the end of the world since you're probably not fielding them when foot units with better Prologue combat become available).

Say, if you lose just Cecile and Rody, and they help you cut two turns, you lose 2K, which is less than a Speedwings or an Energy Ring, and either of these two may end up not helping you shave off any turns at all.

The problem, I think, is developing such strategies that achieve with sacrifices what normal runs wouldn't be achieve (and grandjackal has some hard-to-beat Prologue turn counts without any sacrifices, just certain crucial stat procs during level-ups). Another problem is making the rest of the run just as ambitious, since Prologue consists of the shortest chapters on Lunatic difficulty (no Warp).

[Colonel M]

this is kind of a minor nitpick, but why is bord even ranked on the list? His base stats are terrible, he costs a buttload of turns, and although C axes is nice, its the only thing he has

Free Hammers?

I wanted to make a terrible joke...

[grandjackal]

I still think that efficiency essentially implies turn counts > money that doesn't help shave off turns later. Sacrificing units in the Prologue can definitely be beneficial in chapters like P-5 where the distance from the boss is technically not that big, it's just the enemies prevent you from playing too offensively. Overall, in most situations in Prologue one character can't afford to take more than one hit so having a sacrificial lamb can preserve the really worthwhile fighters for the next turn and perhaps help you cut a turn or two during the whole Prologue (losing units like Rody and Cecile until chapter 1 isn't the end of the world since you're probably not fielding them when foot units with better Prologue combat become available).

Say, if you lose just Cecile and Rody, and they help you cut two turns, you lose 2K, which is less than a Speedwings or an Energy Ring, and either of these two may end up not helping you shave off any turns at all.

The problem, I think, is developing such strategies that achieve with sacrifices what normal runs wouldn't be achieve (and grandjackal has some hard-to-beat Prologue turn counts without any sacrifices, just certain crucial stat procs during level-ups). Another problem is making the rest of the run just as ambitious, since Prologue consists of the shortest chapters on Lunatic difficulty (no Warp).

Well in prologue I can safely say that sacrificial lambs aren't necessary. As for the rest of the game, simply tell me an example where one would be necessary to save a turn, cause I can't think of one.

As for SDS's points...I disagree with Catria over Sirius, as Sirius is usable throughout the game while being a key player early on, to which Catria cannot say the same. She's definitely the best growth unit, but I feel her start is too average to say she compares to Sirius, much less stand above him. The Altean Cavaliers I'm fine being adjacent, long as they're in upper mid rather than high. Minerva...I'm on the fence about, but I will admit I'm probably a tad biased. The big thing for me is that she's one of the few midgame units that is remotely solid, which is pretty nice to have considering the game doesn't exactly throw you too many bones.

Arran to unique utility is...interesting as an idea I guess? Just kinda feels like we're throwing whatever into unique utility with this thought.

Belf and Leiden after Dragonland Amusement Park (DAP as it were) I suppose could use some measuring, because even though we talk alot about the DAP, we never really did get around to level estimations, have we?

As for the golden stat booster units, Horace comes to mind. With a Weapon Scroll for B rank as a Sniper, he can take up Silver and with Rainbow Potion and maybe a +1 Str shard, he can one shot flying dragons so he doesn't even need to fear being doubled (So alternatively he can take like Leo+a Strength shard so he can avoid using a potion). His growths are pretty solid all around. Only issue being he only having 15 levels to spare.

He stands out the most to me in that sense, but I can't really think of anyone else. I mean, I get a vague sense we could do something with everyone else that shows up in Khadien, but not sure what exactly.

By the way, I want to consider Wendell to unique utility since you don't really have a reason to use Yumina over him. He shows up with staff rank and +1 move, along with the occasional ability to attack, with Excalibur if he so desired (not likely, but it's there). Yes Etzel, but no one is really forcing you to use Malessia all the time. Her higher staff rank doesn't come into play much between Wendell and Etzel's join time, as you only have Physic. Considering Wendell can go Bishop, he's not really all that far from Physic himself. Hammerne and Thief (I forget which only she can use) don't call for her to be fielded at all times, so...

[Integrity]

Hammerne and Thief (I forget which only she can use) don't call for her to be fielded at all times, so...

It's Hammerne. Thief can be used by any ol' bro.