What Do You Follow?

[Esau of Isaac]

Against omnipotence, some will say, "Can God create a stone so heavy, he can't lift it?" Then I will ask, ''Have you stopped beating your spouse?" Neither of these questions is valid.

So then God isn't omnipotent? Because the other is (I assume) false with others because they obviously don't beat their wives.

Against omniscience, people will cite the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (impossible to determine the position and the momentum of a quantum). However, this "uncertainty" comes from our need to observe to know. We need to use an electromagnetic wave to hit the electron to get readings, but electrons move due to being hit by the wave. However, omniscience rules out having to see things to know things.

Who the fuck lists the Heisenberg uncertainty principle against omniscience?

[Defeatist Elitist]

Frankly, I'm sick of those trying to use "separation of church and state" to get us to shut up. The reason that's there is to keep the state out of religion.

I do not believe in forcing my religion (telling others about it is different)

These two phrases are mutually contradictory. Having the church meddle in state affairs is forcing your religion on others.

Also, it's absurdly laughable to think that seperation of church and state is there purely to keep the state out of religion. If anything, Freedom of Religion is what covers that. The whole point of seperation of church and state is to stop a nation from being governed by religious ideals. Theocracies are generally considered a bad thing in a modern context.

[Byte2222]

Me personally? Not sure. I was raised as a catholic and am now questioning what I've been taught but either way I do believe there is a God. Why? Because we're here and haven't destroyed ourselves yet. The odds facing intelligent life are so staggering that I think that to have got to a civilisation as advanced as ours would have required divine influence. I also believe that God is a generous and positive being because any objective or wrathful being would look on humanity and probably deem it 'not worth saving,' but we're still here.

[Iced]

I myself am an atheist.

Religion was created originally to explain the things that the current understanding could not. It helped people to find reason and direction in their life.

the sole reason (IMO) that Christianity has survived to this day is the simple fact that the Roman Empire adopted it as their national religion to please the populace, most Western European country's being heavily influenced by Rome despite it's collapse. It just sort of went on from there.

I can't speak for Islam as I don't know enough about it and it's progression.

[Phoenix Wright]

Wah, don't take it out of context!

Here's a (different) example:

You see a man and a woman who are about the same age sitting across from each other in a restaurant. From their body language, it looks like they're not at a business meeting. Do you assume they're on a date?

Answering yes to the above question is the wrong idea.

Likewise, associating Christian with a long list of rules that they'll impose on others isn't always correct. Sounds like 存理者 has had encounters where stating his religion brought out all sorts of negative, wrong assumptions. I've been lucky enough to avoid those so far. . .

I'm still not seeing it that way.

"People get the wrong idea." - That lets me know an opinion is coming.

"I believe salvation should come before rules and regulations." - Well, whaddya know? An opinion.

"People think 'Oh, he's so high and mighty telling me what to do,' but I don't." - Just because he believes something different, everyone else has the wrong idea about God.

I agree on the probability that he has met people who assume wrongly about his beliefs, but I have a hard time believing that (in this quote) because usually people specify that they're statement is a real-life event/series of events before they say it.

It's not Christians setting the rules, it's God setting rules for Christians. He believes that one is saved before they start to obey God. It sounds like predestination a little bit, but not entirely. I've never met anyone with this view before, lol.

Off topic: You're saying it's wrong to decide for yourself that those people are on a date? Why? They're at a restaurant, showing the body language (assuming you can see them at the table), and there is an absence of business papers/any other business-like objects or behaviors (from your example, and assuming we can see them at the table). I think it's right to assume they're on a date. Yes, I may be wrong, but given the clues in your example, I wouldn't be insane to say they're on a date.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

I'm still not seeing it that way.

"People get the wrong idea." - That lets me know an opinion is coming.

"I believe salvation should come before rules and regulations." - Well, whaddya know? An opinion.

"People think 'Oh, he's so high and mighty telling me what to do,' but I don't." - Just because he believes something different, everyone else has the wrong idea about God.

I agree on the probability that he has met people who assume wrongly about his beliefs, but I have a hard time believing that (in this quote) because usually people specify that they're statement is a real-life event/series of events before they say it.

It's not Christians setting the rules, it's God setting rules for Christians. He believes that one is saved before they start to obey God. It sounds like predestination a little bit, but not entirely. I've never met anyone with this view before, lol.

Looks like we took the same statement in two different ways! I felt is was more of a "stop assuming stupid things" kind of statement. I think it would be prudent to wait for the one that made that statement before assuming anything further.

Off topic: You're saying it's wrong to decide for yourself that those people are on a date? Why? They're at a restaurant, showing the body language (assuming you can see them at the table), and there is an absence of business papers/any other business-like objects or behaviors (from your example, and assuming we can see them at the table). I think it's right to assume they're on a date. Yes, I may be wrong, but given the clues in your example, I wouldn't be insane to say they're on a date.

Why is it assumed that a man and a woman in a restaurant are dating? Why can't they be friends?

The body language you're seeing is that they're comfortable around each other (not like the first date jitters).

[Kanami]

Who the fuck lists the Heisenberg uncertainty principle against omniscience?

I'm glad someone say this before I did. :/

@Religion vs State

I'd be happy with a complete separation of state and religion, but that just isn't happening unless we can get religious people to be a sub-human class. Or for whatever reason outlaw religion. People who start religions or ascend to some high position within them have a charismatic appeal to them, and if they can get followers within society, they'll ascend within society as well. Even if religion was degraded, I'm certain some sort of revolution would bring religion back into power.

Religion plays a big role in society, and I doubt anyone can argue against that. For example: It hasn't even been that long since an affirmation could be made instead of an oath in courts.

I think I've made my religious stance clear, but Religion from my perspective isn't much different from the local football club (just a lot bigger). I don't care what they do in their practices (churches) or what they do in their free time (pray, worship). But the moment you start trying to have a social voice in something which doesn't directly concern the "members." You're overstepping your boundaries, and should "shut up." Threatening me with hell and divine punishment is as scary as a 6 year old child glaring at me. Six, because babies are scary creatures.

Ex1: Don't kill him, otherwise you'll have to go to prison. = Prison.... Nyeh, okay no killing then. = Hesitance

Ex2: Don't kill him, God is watching and you'll suffer eternity in hell = Really? Won't know unless I try. = Dead person

....Knowing myself, a comment like Ex2 would probably propel me to go ahead with the act XD

@Salvation

An opinion, no proof that salvation exists.

It's not Christians setting the rules, it's God setting rules for Christians. He believes that one is saved before they start to obey God. It sounds like predestination a little bit, but not entirely. I've never met anyone with this view before, lol.

Depends on your position I guess. Even if I were to believe in "God" I still see it as "Christians" setting the rules in the name of God. Cause lets face it, God didn't write the bible, humans did. God didn't teach us individually, he taught a few individuals (visions/directly etc) who passed it on. And who knows how warped the teaching has become through the passing of time?

If anyone thinks God would have kept his teachings accurate through intervention.... well that's another argument, but considering the world today, I'm not sure even the most devout Christian could come up with a argument in favor of God actively intervening in the worlds business. And if he is intervening and these floods/droughts/earthquakes etc) are a result of him intervening... well it just proves we've really screwed up interpreting his teachings XD

Off topic: You're saying it's wrong to decide for yourself that those people are on a date? Why? They're at a restaurant, showing the body language (assuming you can see them at the table), and there is an absence of business papers/any other business-like objects or behaviors (from your example, and assuming we can see them at the table). I think it's right to assume they're on a date. Yes, I may be wrong, but given the clues in your example, I wouldn't be insane to say they're on a date.

Not sure where I stand on this, but I do agree that it's not "wrong" to assume they're on a date. There's nothing there to prove the contrary. However I don't agree that man and woman having dinner together = date to be an accurate assumption either. Regardless of the odds, I'd think the scenario would be a 50/50 either way. So making an assumption in either way is equally correct as it is wrong.

[Meteor]

Because we're here and haven't destroyed ourselves yet.

The odds facing intelligent life are so staggering that I think that to have got to a civilisation as advanced as ours would have required divine influence.

I also believe that God is a generous and positive being because any objective or wrathful being would look on humanity and probably deem it 'not worth saving,' but we're still here.

Well, if we had killed each other, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So that's not really evidence of anything.

Again, the odds don't matter, because we are here. Had the odds worked against us, we wouldn't exist. This reminds me of a similar thought process -- people point out that the Earth is so wonderfully suited for humans as evidence that it was tailored for us, when really it's the other way around. If the Earth weren't suited for us, we wouldn't be here... Furthermore, why are the odds of a god existing not staggering in comparison?

He's not so generous to the poor and starving. And isn't it somewhat illogical that someone could know the whims of an unknowable god?

[Byte2222]

I don't look at the chance of God existing because I don't think it's something that can be measured and analysed accurately. I know that we've adapted to the Earth and that it wasn't custom made for us but how did we get to adapt? Even if you talk about evolution and the laws of physics how do you think the laws were laid? Some parts seem pretty arbitrary and I think they were laid out as a way to make the universe exist, like one would define the physics engine if one wanted to make a game or simulated environment.

On top of this we are the only known beings who have evolved to become truly intelligent. We have learned to form civilisations and societies and make and use tools. Granted, other species do these too but none that I know of can do all to the level that we can. The way I see it we are by a large margin the most sophisticated beings on Earth and I am convinced that God helped us get here.

Try and think of reasons why we should already be dead as a species. Environmental damage, extraterrestrial objects (e.g. large meteors) and having weapons which could destroy the world hundreds of times over. I know the last one is debatable but I think that the free will we have is not completely free will. Think about impulses you've had and times when you've been teetering on either side of a decision. Do you honestly think that an omnipotent being could not have tipped you over? I will say, though, that I doubt God has the power to stop or remove a thought or conviction we have, at least not directly (or perhaps intentionally), but he could influence external factors which affect our convictions.

For example, if you were a racist person and got, say, run over, and a black person was the first one on the scene, called the ambulance and stayed with you until medical help arrived, would your preconception and conviction have started to be broken? Could you not also have said that it was an act of God that you happened to have your accident on a street where that person just happened to be walking by? This is purely hypothetical but I hope you get what I'm saying: I think that God has some power over our thoughts and opinions but it's not direct control, or at least he rarely exercises direct control. Therefore we can say that, for example the fact that there has not yet been a nuclear war is partially God's work. I mean, look at our past: we've had loads of huge wars, two in the last century, but when we got huge weapons that could destroy humanity the conflicts became smaller.

[Meteor]

I don't look at the chance of God existing because I don't think it's something that can be measured and analysed accurately. I know that we've adapted to the Earth and that it wasn't custom made for us but how did we get to adapt? Even if you talk about evolution and the laws of physics how do you think the laws were laid?

Well, again, the way I see it... if we didn't have the ability to adapt, we wouldn't have gotten to this point. We'd be a soup of chemicals. How could the laws be anything but arbitrary? They could have been anything at all, and we would exist (or not) in a different universe. I personally don't consider it evidence for or against the existence of god; there's no discernible difference between design and a coin flip.

On top of this we are the only known beings who have evolved to become truly intelligent. We have learned to form civilisations and societies and make and use tools. Granted, other species do these too but none that I know of can do all to the level that we can. The way I see it we are by a large margin the most sophisticated beings on Earth and I am convinced that God helped us get here.

I don't think the intelligence margin is as big as you might think. Monkeys, elephants, and dolphins are all quite bright. Our main advantages are our ability to record history, sheer numbers, and as a consequence of that, a couple brilliant people every century who revolutionize how we live.

And why should there be another competing intelligent race? We 'won' the evolutionary lottery; two winners would be even more surprising.

Think about impulses you've had and times when you've been teetering on either side of a decision. Do you honestly think that an omnipotent being could not have tipped you over? I will say, though, that I doubt God has the power to stop or remove a thought or conviction we have, at least not directly (or perhaps intentionally), but he could influence external factors which affect our convictions.

It's not that such a being couldn't, it's that I don't see why he would...

For example, if you were a racist person and got, say, run over, and a black person was the first one on the scene, called the ambulance and stayed with you until medical help arrived, would your preconception and conviction have started to be broken? Could you not also have said that it was an act of God that you happened to have your accident on a street where that person just happened to be walking by? This is purely hypothetical but I hope you get what I'm saying: I think that God has some power over our thoughts and opinions but it's not direct control, or at least he rarely exercises direct control. Therefore we can say that, for example the fact that there has not yet been a nuclear war is partially God's work. I mean, look at our past: we've had loads of huge wars, two in the last century, but when we got huge weapons that could destroy humanity the conflicts became smaller.

I just want to say, I think I really, truly do understand where you're coming from. What I see as a coincidence, you see as evidence of a higher power; we live on two different planes of perception. I have definitely thought about this before, and my only answer is Occam's Razor. If that's the only thing god can influence, how do we know it's even an intelligent being making the choices for us, and not a cosmological die being cast? And how is that any different than our own brains deciding? It seems far simpler and reasonable to say it's the latter.

At the end of the day, if it's something only you can feel yet not explain, then for who am I to say it's not real? I can agree to disagree. However, (and I'm not accusing you of this, but believers in general...) please don't let this feeling trump/dictate your morality. Let's make decisions based on objective reality.

Kind of an afterthought, but I think we haven't nuked ourselves to oblivion because everyone realized we'd rather be alive then dead. We don't need god's help reaching that conclusion.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Meteor

[Byte2222]

At the end of the day, if it's something only you can feel yet not explain, then for who am I to say it's not real? I can agree to disagree. However, (and I'm not accusing you of this, but believers in general...) please don't let this feeling trump/dictate your morality. Let's make decisions based on objective reality.

I think we'll agree to disagree then. And agree that we're being rational in what we see and think, but we're just interpreting it differently.

[Phoenix Wright]

Why is it assumed that a man and a woman in a restaurant are dating? Why can't they be friends?

The body language you're seeing is that they're comfortable around each other (not like the first date jitters).

Or a mom having dinner with her adult son, et cetera.

I assumed (wrongfully) that by "body language," I thought you meant date-like behavior.

Depends on your position I guess. Even if I were to believe in "God" I still see it as "Christians" setting the rules in the name of God. Cause lets face it, God didn't write the bible, humans did. God didn't teach us individually, he taught a few individuals (visions/directly etc) who passed it on. And who knows how warped the teaching has become through the passing of time?

I was correcting eclipse on what 存理者 said. I agree with you, however.

Not sure where I stand on this, but I do agree that it's not "wrong" to assume they're on a date. There's nothing there to prove the contrary. However I don't agree that man and woman having dinner together = date to be an accurate assumption either. Regardless of the odds, I'd think the scenario would be a 50/50 either way. So making an assumption in either way is equally correct as it is wrong.

My point is correct, but the way I said it sounds odd, I'll admit that. Edited October 21, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[Kanami]

Two Questions that Byte2222's responses made me wants to ask.

1: God is ugly: Man was made in Gods image right? But science has proved that earlier man looked like the ape. (Neanderthals). I'm not interested in debating evolution being the "sole" cause of mankind. However, if this is what man looked like originally, is this what God looks like/resembles? Before anyone makes the stupid comment that we've always looked like this, that's false. And denying the roots of mankind, is like denying Jesus existed :/

2: Gods Universal Power: How far does Gods power reach? Is he the "God" of planet Earth, or the entire universe? If he's so powerful that he can create "man" why hasn't he done this with other planets in our solar system? Neptune could probably house fish people :/ The entire concept of God was formed when the world was flat, and planet Earth was the center of the universe, with nothing else really existing. In that case, it's no surprise that Christianity hasn't catered to other planets.

Overall, I don't see "divine" intervention, as a possible means, unless by "divine" you mean extraterrestrials aliens. :/

Do you honestly think that an omnipotent being could not have tipped you over?

I honestly "do not" think it's possible. But if that's all he can do, he's a pretty weak God. Nevermind that if he has been tipping me, he's an evil bastard :/

Trying to attach divine meanings to coincidence is going to far, Coincidences aren't miracles, they're events that occur due to human interaction. If I place a pin on the floor, and walk off. 5 minutes later you step on it, it's a coincidence, but not a "special" in any sense. (disregard we live in different parts of the world)

I put a pin there, you walked on it. That's all there is to it. God did not make you step on the pin, and he didn't make me put the pin down either.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Kanami

[мпд]

Sure is atheist in here. I am afraid of god so I don't worship him.

[Phoenix Wright]

Sure is atheist in here. I am afraid of god so I don't worship him.

This doesn't make sense. Are you an atheist or something else? Or is it a joke? Atheists don't believe God exists so for you to be "afraid" of an absent God means you're crazy. Or joking.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[мпд]

I'm a bit insane to be honest..

[Parrhesia]

If you can recognise it within yourself, you probably aren't.

...Insane, that is, not an atheist.

[Byte2222]

Two Questions that Byte2222's responses made me wants to ask.

1: God is ugly: Man was made in Gods image right? But science has proved that earlier man looked like the ape. (Neanderthals). I'm not interested in debating evolution being the "sole" cause of mankind. However, if this is what man looked like originally, is this what God looks like/resembles? Before anyone makes the stupid comment that we've always looked like this, that's false. And denying the roots of mankind, is like denying Jesus existed :/

2: Gods Universal Power: How far does Gods power reach? Is he the "God" of planet Earth, or the entire universe? If he's so powerful that he can create "man" why hasn't he done this with other planets in our solar system? Neptune could probably house fish people :/ The entire concept of God was formed when the world was flat, and planet Earth was the center of the universe, with nothing else really existing. In that case, it's no surprise that Christianity hasn't catered to other planets.

Overall, I don't see "divine" intervention, as a possible means, unless by "divine" you mean extraterrestrials aliens. :/

1. I see evolution as the tool that God used to sculpt man. He created a planet and the life on it and used evolution to make a species in his image.

2. I believe that God has unlimited (or at least massive) power over the whole universe, after all, he did create it. The reason he didn't create another intelligent species (that we know of) is that we're special to him. Even if there are a few other species out there, I'd still say that we're special to God but I will admit that I might be a bit rattled if we found loads of intelligent alien species.

If you don't see any divine intervention, that's fine with me: this is just what I believe and I think everyone should make their own discoveries and draw their own conclusions.

I honestly "do not" think it's possible. But if that's all he can do, he's a pretty weak God. Nevermind that if he has been tipping me, he's an evil bastard :/

Trying to attach divine meanings to coincidence is going to far, Coincidences aren't miracles, they're events that occur due to human interaction. If I place a pin on the floor, and walk off. 5 minutes later you step on it, it's a coincidence, but not a "special" in any sense. (disregard we live in different parts of the world)

I put a pin there, you walked on it. That's all there is to it. God did not make you step on the pin, and he didn't make me put the pin down either.

I do believe that coincidences happen, but I'd say that some might be God's work. Again, this is just what I think and if you disagree then that's fine with me: I don't want an argument, just maybe a discussion.

[Phoenix Wright]

2. I believe that God has unlimited (or at least massive) power over the whole universe, after all, he did create it. The reason he didn't create another intelligent species (that we know of) is that we're special to him. Even if there are a few other species out there, I'd still say that we're special to God but I will admit that I might be a bit rattled if we found loads of intelligent alien species.

I can't fathom why you think God believes we're special. That seems like an unfair God in numerous ways...

If you don't see any divine intervention, that's fine with me: this is just what I believe and I think everyone should make their own discoveries and draw their own conclusions.

Where do you see it?

I do believe that coincidences happen, but I'd say that some might be God's work. Again, this is just what I think and if you disagree then that's fine with me: I don't want an argument, just maybe a discussion.

You mean like a coincidence for us? I'm not sure how God's intervention in anything can be seen as a coincidence.

[eclipse]

Sure is atheist in here.

More like, state your religious opinion and have the atheists ask all sorts of questions. Nothing wrong with it.

Or a mom having dinner with her adult son, et cetera.

I assumed (wrongfully) that by "body language," I thought you meant date-like behavior.

That's one young-lookin' mom (they look about the same age, remember?)! Though I had been mistaken for my dad's wife before. . .

[Phoenix Wright]

More like, state your religious opinion and have the atheists ask all sorts of questions. Nothing wrong with it.

That's one young-lookin' mom (they look about the same age, remember?)! Though I had been mistaken for my dad's wife before. . .

No I forgot. It doesn't really matter, anyway.

That must have been really, really awkward.

[Zanarkin]

I think that the easiest way to classify myself is by saying that I'm an apatheist.

As for which branch, I'd say that all of them apply to some extent.

You, my friend, have just given me the complete word for what I believe, and for that I thank you. Apathetic Agnosticism.

Edited October 23, 2010 by SlayerX

[peener weener]

Inconclusive. I'd just leave it at that.

[Dark Sage]

I'm a half Jew myself actually. I haven't been practicing my faith for awhile, but I'm going to make far more of an effort to do so. One thing I will not do though is to keep kosher. I do not believe in holy animals and have no clue why it's so bad to eat meat and dairy together.

[Byte2222]

I can't fathom why you think God believes we're special. That seems like an unfair God in numerous ways...

I think God considers us special because we're still here. We gained noticeably superior intelligence despite the odds and haven't destroyed ourselves or our planet yet. This is all in one of my older posts.

Where do you see it?

Again, see my older posts, but consider a case of good luck that came from something you could only otherwise describe as a coincidence. For example, you're out one day and realise just too late that you've spent too much money and can't afford the bus fare back. You continue to walk along and a ray of sun catches on a coin on the ground and the reflection catches you attention. The coin just so happens to be enough to make the fare home. Coincidence or divine charity? And yeah, I know that one was a bit extreme but it's just demonstrating my point.

You mean like a coincidence for us? I'm not sure how God's intervention in anything can be seen as a coincidence.

I believe a quote from Futurama is applicable here: "If you do too much, people get dependent on you, and if you do nothing, they lose hope ... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Edited October 24, 2010 by Byte2222