Favorite Est?

[Silent Mercenary]

I like all the Ests (not sure about FE4's since I haven't played it, but if it's the healer with Physic then I like him too).

I would say my favorite is L'Arachel (if she even counts) for being always hilarious, awesome, useful and beautiful. Since not, the combined toddler-to-adult-in-a-lightning-flash force of Nino and Ewan is my favorite.

And I don't think Sophia counts, since she comes 2 chapters before Zeiss and is a bigger glass cannon than him (although Zeiss gets HM bonuses making him less Estier).

Edited September 11, 2010 by Silent Mercenary

[NinjaMonkey]

And no, Tormod is not an Est either.

At the beginning of RD Vika, Tormod and Muarim are classified as Jeigan characters. However, when they reappear in 4-4 they are suddenly Ests.

*Wonders if Vika can really considered to be an Est if (somehow) she happens to be level 30 at that point...*

[Darros]

EST. BECAUSE SHE CONVIENTLY COMES AVEC UN ARÉNA.

[Junkhead]

And I don't think Sophia counts, since she comes 2 chapters before Zeiss and is a bigger glass cannon than him (although Zeiss gets HM bonuses making him less Estier).

What...?

Being a class cannon doesn't mean it's an Est. Sophie doesn't count because she doesn't have outstanding growths, and neither does she turn out great in the end. Just alright. Same with Zeiss, since his Spd sucks no matter the HM bonuses, again, no outstanding growths either.

At the beginning of RD Vika, Tormod and Muarim are classified as Jeigan characters. However, when they reappear in 4-4 they are suddenly Ests.

*Wonders if Vika can really considered to be an Est if (somehow) she happens to be level 30 at that point...*

They were never listed as *Jeigans*.

And I don't think Vika is an Est. She starts at a relatively high level with great growths.

[NinjaMonkey]

They were never listed as *Jeigans*.

And I don't think Vika is an Est. She starts at a relatively high level with great growths.

She starts at level 13... out of a total of 40 (that's not even halfway). Also, having great growths defines what an Est archetype is.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Um, why not just simplify the definition of the Est to be:

The last unpromoted combat unit that joins at a relatively low level (10 for example)

To save this thread from silly "X is not an Est" arguments?

[Anouleth]

Um, why not just simplify the definition of the Est to be:

To save this thread from silly "X is not an Est" arguments?

Except there are characters that fit into that typing that are not really Ests (for example, Ewan actually has fairly average growths and barely ends up better than Lute), and some Ests that do not fit into that typing, such as Sheema.

[Parrhesia]

I don't count Farina, as she can just be tossed a Whip and BAM a good combat unit. Zeiss theoretically. In actual use...Tailto, I guess.

[Randoman]

It's definitely Elice for me. I must've done 3 or 4 playthroughs where I brought her to level 20 and promoted her at chapter 24. Being a healer definitely helps with levelling her up, especially considering how damaging the dragon reinforcements can be. In all of my FE11 runthroughs, Chapter 24 is a levelling up fest for my whole team since I milk the reinforcements for experience, so it's not like I'm prolonging the chapter just for Elice. Also, I find it wrong to not use Elice, since I think she's a really important character in the story, given the sacrifices she made for Marth and Altea.

I guess second would be L'Arachel, seeing how she maxes out almost all of her stats, though that's also partially because her stat caps are low. Though since she caps them way before she reaches 20/20, that's still impressive. And I also like her comedic yet competent personality.

[eclipse]

Zeiss, followed by Pelleas, Nino, Est, and Elice (reclassed to Mage, so she can blow stuff up).

HM Zeiss is a level 7 unit whose Strength is one away from its cap. I don't hear people saying a certain other Dracoknight sucks because of his 30% Speed growth (people work around it, rather than whine about it). Assuming average level-ups, HM Zeiss will cap his Speed, and NM Zeiss won't be too far behind. He's also very cute.

Pelleas gets a mention because his Miracle saved me from a reset.

Nino is amusing, but I really hate her CON, which never really fixes itself (short of a Body Ring, which I'd rather give to a Speed-blessed Eliwood).

Est comes with the arena, but I'm stuck leveling her up as a Pegasus Knight. I'd rather level her as something else. Her starting weapon means that she can snag some kills, and doesn't have to rely on the arena for leveling.

Elice + forged Fire tome (a little bit of Might and a lot of Accuracy) + dragons = very fast promotion. Once she promotes, she'll get her crazy staff rank back.

[Fayt Zelpher]

She isn't an Est.

She is in FE9. Or do I need to cite her bases, join time, growths, and averages for proof.

Late join + Poor bases + Great growths = Est. FE9 Elincia has all three.

[Thief]

I don't get this topic. There is only one Est, and she's been recruitable in five different games so far.

[Silent Mercenary]

I don't get this topic. There is only one Est, and she's been recruitable in five different games so far.

We mean the archetype Est - archetype being like a reused type of character in the series.

Being a class cannon doesn't mean it's an Est. Sophie doesn't count because she doesn't have outstanding growths, and neither does she turn out great in the end. Just alright. Same with Zeiss, since his Spd sucks no matter the HM bonuses, again, no outstanding growths either.

Yes, but glass cannon means bad growths somewhere, although now that I look back at it, Zeiss has 275% total growths, while Sophia has 280%, they are both a little far from Ests like Nino (330%).

Um, why not just simplify the definition of the Est to be:

The last unpromoted combat unit that joins at a relatively low level (10 for example)

To save this thread from silly "X is not an Est" arguments?

That'd be a good idea. My opinion is: late-game (2/3 passed), unpromoted, low-level, low/average bases and good growths. But everyone has their opinions.

Late join + Poor bases + Great growths = Est. FE9 Elincia has all three.

Pelleas gets a mention because his Miracle saved me from a reset.

The thing is they're both 2nd tier, the last two unpromoted being Tormod and Fiona, but they're around midgame.

[eclipse]

Yes, but glass cannon means bad growths somewhere, although now that I look back at it, Zeiss has 275% total growths, while Sophia has 280%, they are both a little far from Ests like Nino (330%).

Er. . .*checks growth rates for both characters*

Hmm. . .Sophia has the higher growth total, but Zeiss ties or beats out Sophia in everything except for RES (where Sophia has a +30% advantage). I'll choose Zeiss, thankyouverymuch.

The thing is they're both 2nd tier, the last two unpromoted being Tormod and Fiona, but they're around midgame.

Tormod is a second tier character.

In terms of late-game joining (Chapter 4), we have a bunch of high-level laguz, three tier 3 characters, one that's nearly halfway up a unique class (which I think counts as tier 3), a couple of tier 2 characters that we've seen before, and Pelleas, who is a tier 2 character that needs quite a bit of work in order to catch up to everyone else. I think he counts.

[Shadow Mir]

Yes, but glass cannon means bad growths somewhere, although now that I look back at it, Zeiss has 275% total growths, while Sophia has 280%, they are both a little far from Ests like Nino (330%).

Actually, that's not what "glass cannon" means. A glass cannon is someone who can hit hard, but also takes a lot of damage (as far as FE goes, I mostly think of mages when I see the term "glass cannon"). Also, personally, I'd avoid both Sophia and Zeiss.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Life]

Actually, that's not what "glass cannon" means. A glass cannon is someone who can hit hard, but also takes a lot of damage as far as FE goes, I mostly think of mages when I see the term "glass cannon".

Lyndis says hi. She's probably the purest glass cannon in any of the recent FE games (since FE7).

[dondon151]

HM Zeiss is a level 7 unit whose Strength is one away from its cap. I don't hear people saying a certain other Dracoknight sucks because of his 30% Speed growth (people work around it, rather than whine about it). Assuming average level-ups, HM Zeiss will cap his Speed, and NM Zeiss won't be too far behind. He's also very cute.

There are numerous differences between Zeiss and FE10 Haar that put them on completely different levels. For one, Haar is only a couple of points of spd away from doubling most of the enemies in the game (enemies in FE10 are rather homogeneous spd-wise), so his problem is alleviated with a Speedwings, while Zeiss's AS problem is not (and FE6 Speedwings are more highly competed for). Another factor is that Haar is the only flier in the army for a huge portion of the game while Zeiss is the fourth flier to join the army. Yet another factor is that Haar has no accuracy or atk issues (forged Steel Axe) while Zeiss has either accuracy issues (Steel Lance) or atk issues (Iron Lance). You could also throw effective damage in the mix, because Zeiss is completely useless in Sacae where effective damage penetrates his high def and he faces dangerously high listed crit from every enemy. Even Ilia is dangerous, as some maps have Iron Ballista that have 39 eff atk (before str) and outrange him. As if all that wasn't enough, Zeiss can't even promote without investing 3 levels worth of EXP (but you said that you wanted to get him to level 20 anyway).

Like you said, people work around Haar's problems. You really can't work around Zeiss's problems. There are no Arms Scrolls in FE6 to get him to Killer Lance level. Speedwings are highly competed for and you'll need more than 1 to get him to double more than a few weighed down fighters. You can't instantly promote him either because he's not level 10. We've tried making him work, and it just doesn't.

[Frosty]

IDK if Sophia counts cause she was a monster in my last playthrough.... Too bad her CON is low... so I fed her a Body Ring....

Uhmm... I guess Ewan, Heath and Nino takes the spot... Zeiss is too MEH for my tastes, and Miledy would be already bashing stuff to death by that point, and 30% SPD Growth?? I rather have Miledy instead.....

[Fei Mao]

Sara (FE5) elite skill, can heal, high staff rank and high growths.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Generic Officer

[eclipse]

There are numerous differences between Zeiss and FE10 Haar that put them on completely different levels. For one, Haar is only a couple of points of spd away from doubling most of the enemies in the game (enemies in FE10 are rather homogeneous spd-wise), so his problem is alleviated with a Speedwings, while Zeiss's AS problem is not (and FE6 Speedwings are more highly competed for). Another factor is that Haar is the only flier in the army for a huge portion of the game while Zeiss is the fourth flier to join the army. Yet another factor is that Haar has no accuracy or atk issues (forged Steel Axe) while Zeiss has either accuracy issues (Steel Lance) or atk issues (Iron Lance). You could also throw effective damage in the mix, because Zeiss is completely useless in Sacae where effective damage penetrates his high def and he faces dangerously high listed crit from every enemy. Even Ilia is dangerous, as some maps have Iron Ballista that have 39 eff atk (before str) and outrange him. As if all that wasn't enough, Zeiss can't even promote without investing 3 levels worth of EXP (but you said that you wanted to get him to level 20 anyway).

Like you said, people work around Haar's problems. You really can't work around Zeiss's problems. There are no Arms Scrolls in FE6 to get him to Killer Lance level. Speedwings are highly competed for and you'll need more than 1 to get him to double more than a few weighed down fighters. You can't instantly promote him either because he's not level 10. We've tried making him work, and it just doesn't.

I think this all falls under efficiency. Last I checked, Ests weren't efficient, and it is very possible to work around Zeiss' problems, even in Sacae (not particularly efficient, but if you're looking for efficient, this is the wrong thread).

I'd rather not use the Speedwings on Haar. I have other uses for it.

Zeiss has his own set of issues, but I wouldn't be complaining about his Speed. It's sufficient for NM. Haven't used him on HM yet (though 19 Strength at level 7 is extremely impressive).

[Former Guest]

Sara (FE5) elite skill, can heal, high staff rank and high growths.

? I would think somebody falling under an archetype named after 'Est' is supposed to be bad. Distinctly sub-par on their own and hard-pressed to catch up as a unit.......bad. Sara has more than enough perks to stand up against five other characters who work with anima and staves from the moment she's recruited. Eda is more like it.

Zeiss shouldn't count at all either. Ests don't even rate as mediocre. At least he has some durability among interesting instead of relatively woeful base stats on HM, and a practical support partner in someone who is often hurting for lack of.....that being the only other character who shares his class.

[Intoner Two]

My favorite "Est" happens to be Miranda (FE5); I like her portrait and her trading card artwork is very lovely . The only Est I've ever seriously attempted to use, however, has been Nino XD. I tend to ignore them more times than not but maybe I'll baby and spoil Miranda the next time I play Thracia~.

[Smiley Jim]

I tend to stay away from Est-type units in any of my playthroughs because I have a posse set up already(I usually plan out my army BEFORE I start playing, and only twice have I used an Est in any playthrough. So far I have used Est(FEDS H2) and Pelleas(FE10 NM). I'm currently playing FE7 right now. I actually thought about using Nino before I made my final team(Granted I'm stuck playing ENM since this is my first run. I could try using her in HHM).

My current team in FE7:

Eli/Lyn/Hector/OsWIN/Raven/Barf-tray/Heath/Rath/Trapwhore/Canas/Pent/Serra/Priss

As for my fave, I'd have to say Pelleas for me. Dark magic is too good to pass up. Zeiss follows a close second, since unlike the other 'Est' in FE6, he can actually do something(though he is still slightly inferior to Miredy, his HM strength of 19 at 7/0 speaks for itself. Too bad he has a frickin' D in lances and his AS sucks)

Edited September 11, 2010 by DA125

[Anouleth]

Lyndis says hi. She's probably the purest glass cannon in any of the recent FE games (since FE7).

Lute? Soren? Micaiah? Edward? FE10 Zihark? Sanaki?

[dondon151]

Last I checked, Ests weren't efficient, and it is very possible to work around Zeiss' problems,

You can work around anyone's problems with sacrificing efficiency. That doesn't even have to be stated. The point is that you compared him to Haar. The requirement that you have to sacrifice efficiency to make Zeiss good while you don't have to to make Haar good indicates that they aren't near to being on the same level.