Mosts over/underrated pairings

[Sasori]

The title says it all. What is in your opinion the most overated and underrated pairing in the game

Overated: Probably Levin/Tiltyu Everyone keeps talking about how awesome it is to have an holsety user on a pony for the entire part 2. My problem with this pairing is that Arthur still starts as a mage with a lousy 5 move and he has now pursuit. In other words he needs either the Pursuit ring and the leg/elite ring to make sure he has more movement/promotes faster. Isn't that a bit too much resources for him since he isn't the only one who wants those rings.

I could be a little bit biased towards this pairing since I like azel/Tiltyu but I believe that azel himself is considered bad because of his 5 move while his offense is great. Of course Arthur doesn't join with an army of horses but still.

Underrated: Uh maybe Dew/Ira its a good pairing although its horribly outclassed by both Lex and Holyn.

[Life]

The title says it all. What is in your opinion the most overated and underrated pairing in the game

Overated: Probably Levin/Tiltyu Everyone keeps talking about how awesome it is to have an holsety user on a pony for the entire part 2. My problem with this pairing is that Arthur still starts as a mage with a lousy 5 move and he has now pursuit. In other words he needs either the Pursuit ring and the leg/elite ring to make sure he has more movement/promotes faster. Isn't that a bit too much resources for him since he isn't the only one who wants those rings.

I could be a little bit biased towards this pairing since I like azel/Tiltyu but I believe that azel himself is considered bad because of his 5 move while his offense is great. Of course Arthur doesn't join with an army of horses but still.

Levin has dibs on First Gen Pursuit Ring since it makes him consistently kill stuff. Stands to reason that Arthur gets it if Arthur is going to be better than Levin could ever be.

Also, Arthur can just south in Chapter 6 and get to Dannan before Celice can even capture Isaac.

Underrated: Fuck, NoishxAyra is actually amazing. It just gets overshadowed by Lex and Holyn.

Overrated: LachesisxBeowulf. Seriously. Delmud still sucks balls.

[Shin]

I enjoyed NoishxAyra, the kids had terrifying skillsets along with great stats. With LevinxTiltyu, I actually let Tiltyu have the Pursuit ring. Continue and Critical generally activate enough to finish off opponents.

Over-rated = HolynxBriggid. I personally didn't like this one too much. Moonlight doesn't activate enough to help Patty too much (although B-rank swords are nice) and Faval's left with only pursuit. Admittedly, the Ichieval gives him plenty of offense but it's nice to have something else. I prefer Lex on this one, Elite and Ambush help Patty get through the arena and catch up whilst both of them appreciate Ambush. Holyn isn't horrible, it just wasn't as legendary as I had hoped.

Under-rated = LevinxSylvia. Admittedly the worst of the three Holsety users, coming late and horribly underleveled. However, with enough Reserve Staff spamming and a little money from Patty, it's possible to promote him by the end of the chapter. The other two are usually still powerful with Azel and Claude as parents and it raises Corple from C rank to *. Leen also becomes a little better at dodging (she's doomed anyway). Not that I don't like the other two better, it's just this one isn't as bad as it's made out.

[Mekkah]

Even without the Pursuit Ring, Levin and Arthur are great. If you're too stingy to give them the Pursuit Ring so that your 6 mov Holyn!Patty can do double 6 instead of double 3, then you can still give him the Magic Ring to OHKO the enemies in Ch6 he starts near. Or even without an OHKO, he has enormous Continue and Critical rates, so if you send him at a group of enemies, he'll kill around 70-80% of them depending on how Anna is feeling that day.

It is impossible for Delmud to suck, especially with Beowulf. Don't expect him to do any miracles like Shannan or your Holsety user and he's fine. Charisma/Pursuit horse with access to any Gen 1 sword you're willing to spare...that means you can give him a Silver Blade and watch him ORKO anything slower off the bat.

[Chalis]

Underrated: FinnxEdin, JamukaxAira, Lex/HolynxLachesis, DeuxSylvia

Overrated: I don't know what the trends are right now, last I checked everyone was crazy over ClaudexFury.

[CassieCinders]

Underrated: FinnxEdin

I've got to agree with this; as it's actually my favorite Aideen pairing; but not a lot of people seem to agree.

It's the only pairing so far in which my Lester never sucked every time I did it (about 4 times by now). And I know PEMN; but I don't really care about that >_> Which is also why I avoid FE debates

Overrated: Holyn x Briggid IMO. I know the Odo blood is great and all; but Moonlight isn't really reliable and with Dew or Lex as her father, she can get to promotion just as fast/even faster. Bargain is also a handy skill to have on her for that expensive Sleep Sword which she likes to abuse so much; while Elite and Ambush just make the arena a cakewalk for her. Holyncomes 3rd for me in terms ofPatty's father.

[Shin]

FinxEdain isn't bad at all. Growths are pretty solid all around and Prayer helps out. Rana also appreciates the magic bonus in chapter 7. Although I do like passing down Duel from Midir- along with the Hero's Sword.

I actually did HolynxLachesis by accident on my first playthrough. Amazing strength and skill, a shame that Delmud needed the Hero Sword (which had 50 kills by then) to function. Nanna was stuck as a healbot but had enough HP to take a few hits.

[Smiley Jim]

I think the following pairings are overrated:

Levin*Tiltyu: As good as the pairing is initially, I still find Levin!Arthur slightly inferior to Levin!Sety in the end. Sety has higher caps(30Mag/27Skl/30Spd vs 25Mag/22Skl/22Spd)and doesn't need a pursuit ring since he comes with it. Also, Fee gets a +5 str raise if Celice talks to her in C10(only if her father is Levin) While Tinny can still function, the lack of Pursuit hurts her more since she doesn't have a 57% Adept rate to call on(at least Tornado helps). At least the horse helps(the hype doesn't though). Also, the pairing is VERY hard to make and it requires that they stay glued for the duration of the 1st gen(not to mention that Sylvia has a giant lead on Tiltyu), and I can simply replicate the horse with the Leg/Knight rings on Sety anyway.

Holyn*Brigid: I'm going to be honset, Odo blood and Patty having Luna and Hero Sword access do not outweigh anything that Dew gives out. Faval's bases won't be as good since Dew's caps suck compared to Holyn's AVERAGES, but his growths will be better overall and he will have Bargain to mitigate Ichival reparation costs.

Holyn*Aira: Lumi's gonna disagree on this, but I believe that the overkilled skill and HP(and Luna) does not override anything that Lex(Paragon and +30 Def growth) and Noish(Duel and Critical) have to offer, not to mention that you can't get the Balmung on them unless you use a glitch.

I think the following parings are underrated:

Alec*Fury: Haven't done this one(and never will, since I'm sticking with Levin*Fury), but from what I've heard, Fee is immune to arrow criticals, increasing the range in which she can go thanks to her above average durability for a peg(85HP/45def growths).

Azel*Lachesis: Normally, pairing Azel with someone NOT named Tiltyu is stupid, since he gimps the str growth of physical kids. He can get away with marrying Lachesis because her Hezul blood will ensure that Nanmud get good str. Also, Delmud can effectively use flame swords and Nanna becomes a more effective healer.

Levin*Sylvia: I never thought this would come out of my mouth. Of course, Levin has better things to do than to fuck Sylvia, but AFAIK, this is the ONLY pairing that will make Corple useful. He's the worst of the three LOLSety users(Sety is the best, and Arthur will ALWAYS play second fiddle, no matter how much tourneyfags try.), but he actually has the best growth spread of the three(by this, I mean HOW his growths are distributed, not the total growths; Arthur wins in the latter dept.) and the only one with innate Prayer(it's not like you can't give Sety the prayer ring anyway). The problem is actually promoting the little fucker(he starts as a Lv1 Priest)so he CAN use it, not to mention that he won't have Pursuit.

Want proof that Corple has a better growth spread? Here's a chart:

NAME 		MHP STR MAG SKL SPD LCK DEF RES
Sety    	115 20  35  50  105 30  35  15
Arthur    	130 15  40  85  110 45  25  15
Corple  	120 15  50  45  95  40  25  40

Edited October 19, 2010 by DA125

[Mekkah]

hi im bored...

Levin*Tiltyu: As good as the pairing is initially, I still find Levin!Arthur slightly inferior to Levin!Sety in the end. Sety has higher caps(30Mag/27Skl/30Spd vs 25Mag/22Skl/22Spd)and doesn't need a pursuit ring since he comes with it. Also, Fee gets a +5 str raise if Celice talks to her in C10(only if her father is Levin) While Tinny can still function, the lack of Pursuit hurts her more since she doesn't have a 57% Adept rate to call on(at least Tornado helps). At least the horse helps(the hype doesn't though). Also, the pairing is VERY hard to make and it requires that they stay glued for the duration of the 1st gen(not to mention that Sylvia has a giant lead on Tiltyu), and I can simply replicate the horse with the Leg/Knight rings on Sety anyway.

Even if you want the Pursuit Ring on someone else before he promotes, there's no excuse not to give it to him after he promotes. Patty and Leaf, the only other reasonable candidates, get it after they promote. Well, I suppose there's Tinny, but I generally don't use Tinny since she's underleveled, frail, and doesn't excel enough at combat to make up for it.

The pairing being hard to make...iono, you just have to know how to do it. It takes longer, but for anyone who has access to the resources of Serenes Forest, it's not hard, just more time consuming.

How does using Leg/Knight Rings on Sety compensate for having no horse whereas Arthur apparently can't use the Pursuit Ring to compensate for not having Pursuit? It's not like we don't have any better candidates for the insta-pony rings. Both of Ayra's kids, Shannan, Faval, and perhaps even more silly people like Tinny and Patty.

Sety's higher caps don't matter other than against one or two bosses, perhaps. They are Gods, no less than the God the tome they use is named after. Nothing can hit them, they 2HKO or OHKO anything, they double anything with Pursuit, and even if that doesn't suffice they have two overkill damage increasing skills with insane proc rates.

Holyn*Brigid: I'm going to be honset, Odo blood and Patty having Luna and Hero Sword access do not outweigh anything that Dew gives out. Faval's bases won't be as good since Dew's caps suck compared to Holyn's AVERAGES, but his growths will be better overall and he will have Bargain to mitigate Ichival reparation costs.

It doesn't matter much who you pair with Brigid: Patty is going to suck unless you abuse her (boss abuse, Sleep Sword in the arena abuse, etc) and Faval is going to be a foot unit that kills anything. I think you could go through the game without repairing Ichival once as long as you only use it when it makes a difference, because generally he can make do with Killer/Silver (or even weaker against Thracia). The only pairing that really makes a difference here is Lex, since it allows Patty to use Ambush + Sleep Sword, and grow twice as fast with Elite.

For what it's worth I agree Holyn/Ayra is overkill.

On Alec/Fury, generally there's not enough bow users to worry about for Fee, and whenever there are she can always be doing something else. Not worth giving up superior growths for, but it doesn't matter much since Fee (and Sety) are almost impossible to ruin.

Levin/Sylvia is a bad pairing, and sadly it makes Corple the best. I don't see how that makes it underrated.

On Lachesis/Azel, if anything this pairing is extremely overrated. I wrote a long piece of text on it some time but I didn't save it. But basically, Delmud and Nanna can always do more damage with melee swords than magic ones even with Azel as their father, never mind what they could've had if you gave them Beowulf or Fin as their dad. Nanna heals like a few more HPs that will never matter. She doesn't even reach her crappy 20 mag cap.

[mai]

Overrated

LevinxTiltyu: Look, Arthur joins at level 2. No matter how awesome Holsety on a horse sounds, it'll take a while before he gets there, and since his movement is terrible when he joins, he won't get there too son.

Besides, Tiltyu is underleveled, which means she'll need a lot of protection. She's a burden to Levin.

Underrated

NoishxAyra: Not exactly underrated, but most people seem to think it's worse than HolynxAyra. I'd say Charge and Critical > Moonlight Sword (which is redundant and worse than Astra anyway). Over 100 skill growth is useless.

[Swordsalmon]

Underrated: FinnxEdin, JamukaxAira, Lex/HolynxLachesis, DeuxSylvia

JamukaXAyra was actually popular for a while. I actually think it's pretty overrated considering how completely pointless the benefits are. Sure, Lakche and Skasaha get some nice skills... but it doesn't matter when almost every pairing has them one-rounding anyways. I've tried JamukaxAyra, and you get just two glass cannons. :/

I've found that AzelxSylvia is pretty underrated. Corple sucks as usual, but the extra magic is nice for Lynn, especially when Levin and Claude are being paired for Tiltyu and Fury. Also, NoishexFury is a very good, but underused pairing. Sety's low Magic is offset by his nice skill selection, but Phee is improved considerably by having Noishe as a father.

[Mekkah]

LevinxTiltyu: Look, Arthur joins at level 2. No matter how awesome Holsety on a horse sounds, it'll take a while before he gets there, and since his movement is terrible when he joins, he won't get there too son.

Besides, Tiltyu is underleveled, which means she'll need a lot of protection. She's a burden to Levin.

Depending on your team size and how good you are at EXP distribution, Arthur's promotion happens somewhere between Ch8 base, and Ch9 base, unless you use literally everyone and don't pass gold and the Elite Ring around in an efficient way. If you limit your team to only good people, for example you only "train" Celice/Lakche/Arthur/Oifaye/Delmud/Nanna/Aless/Shannan/Julia, while people like Altenna, Faval and Sety are useable as they come so they don't need training, and you use Lana as a healbot, then you can reasonably promote Arthur somewhere during Ch8.

Remember, Arthur isn't just another combat guy with 5 movement. He has 1-2 range, he kills over half the things he blinks at (all of them with Pursuit Ring), and nothing short of a homing missile is going to hit him. In Ch6, he can take out all of Johalva's group. In Ch7, he can take out one or two Dark Mages (everyone else except Julia is 1-2HKO'd, and very few people ORKO them, let alone having a shot at not taking a counter), and then he has plenty of time to walk towards Melgen while Celice is going through the desert.

Then he is like the only guy other than Shannan (who is at the Yied Shrine) who dares to walk into the range of all the enemies there, including two ballistae and two bosses with powerful Thunder tomes. He can solo that army if you want him to, and he's definitely the best guy for killing Ishtor. Two seconds later, you get Blume's Mage army. More easy kills for Arthur, he needs to be there to get Tinny recruited anyway (but even if not he's the best candidate).

In Ch8, you have to deal with a Hero Lance/Hero Bow General in a forest, along with a bunch of other enemies. And so on. Let him do what he's best at without dragging your army down, and he'll have the horse in no time.

And remember, his competition here is Levin!Sety. That guy isn't joining before Arthur gets his horse.

[Dark Sage]

Overrated: AyraxHolyn doesn't give a lot to the kids besides Major Odo (Overkill skill and useless unless you exploit a glitch) and the fact that Luna and Astra have conflicting activations. Decent defense though, plus sword inheritance for Skasaha is always good. Still.....

Underrated: BriggdxBeowulf gives Patty Pursuit and Charge as a Thief! This means with a magic ring and a wind sword, Patty can prove most useful. Nice stats all around for both kids too. Pursuit plus Sleep Sword equals yum.

[Smiley Jim]

Overrated: AyraxHolyn doesn't give a lot to the kids besides Major Odo (Overkill skill and useless unless you exploit a glitch) and the fact that Luna and Astra have conflicting activations. Decent defense though, plus sword inheritance for Skasaha is always good. Still.....

Like I said, I will agree on this one. All Holyn does is give the kids excessive skill growth(125/115 respectively)and Luna, which is useless since Lakche and Ska ORKO everything with Astra anyway. I'm going to be blunt, but Luna and major Odo do NOT override anything that Lex(Paragon and minor Neir), Noish(Duel and Critical), or even Jamka(Adept and Duel) give out. Just don't say anything to Lumi, since she WILL argue that Holyn is Aira's best pairing.

Underrated: BriggdxBeowulf gives Patty Pursuit and Charge as a Thief! This means with a magic ring and a wind sword, Patty can prove most useful. Nice stats all around for both kids too. Pursuit plus Sleep Sword equals yum.

Patty is hard to level up no matter who her father is(trust me, in my playthrough, Patty didn't hit Lv20 until Chapter 10(base), and that was with HOLYN as her father), and pairing Brigid with Beo has no real pros or cons since Patty takes three-four chapters to promote on average and Faval ORKO's everything he touches anyway. Beo does give a decent growth spread, though.

I actually forgot to put in another overrated pairing:

Lex*Tiltyu: Lex is one of only two fathers(the other being Ardan) who can supply Arthinny with the Vantage/Wrath combo, but realistically, it's a gimmick at best. Arthinny's magic under this pairing is, to be blunt, le crappy, and they would NEED Thoron + Mag ring to stay afloat(which, IIRC, there is only one Thoron in the game, which means that one of them WILL stay crappy in the lategame). No Pursuit/Adept/Duel doesn't help, either. So yeah. Pair Tiltyu with Azel or Levin(preferably Azel) to keep your sanity intact.

And yes, I do use literally everyone, since in FE4, you can use all your available units. It's a shame that some people don't do that.

Edited October 19, 2010 by DA125

[Narga_Rocks]

Holyn x Ayra does have an advantage over Noishe x Ayra once you start using 50+ kill weapons. But I like being able to switch between Hero Sword and Thunder Sword or something so I tend not to reach 50+ kills anyway. Thunder and Hero both had over 45 by the end, but I'm not sure Hero actually went over.

Also it's much easier to level up Holyn than it is Noishe, so they'll probably start 1 or 2 points better in a few stats in chapter 6.

Anyway, Moonlight > Charge, so once you have 50+ kill weapons Holyn's pair is better.

I think I've asked before, but anyone know what gets checked first? Meteor or Moonlight? If Meteor gets checked first than moonlight will never prevent the (generally) superior Meteor from activating. It's only benefit and no downside since Critical can activate with either.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Thor Odinson]

I never said anything about HolynAira for absolute-best-no-space-for-argument. I am for HolynAira OTP as 1)I admit. I'm a fan of virtually all OgmaxNavarre pairs that can support 2)There is no kill like overkill 3)Lakche uses Balmung better than Shanan even though Shanan's my second favorite FE dude and I generally keep Balmung on him anyway and 4)HP lead.

Lex!Twins does have a slight chance of not-capping SPD, however. I had Skasaher with only 25 SPD in a run with LexAira as my pairing and while PEMN and all, but it did turn me away from that pairing a bit, from other reasons (that and his average is actually 26 and not 27 with Lex, and Lakche's average is actually 29.something less than 5.). Since Skasaher can usually cap DEF anyway with Holyn as dad, but a ton more HP than Lex!Skasaher. I will admit, also, that I have insane swordfighter favoritism issues, and getting Ska to level 30 is NEVER an issue. Ever. Lakche does it even faster, so I personally find Elite counterproductive for my personal playstyle, as both times I used LexAira as my pairing, Lakche reached level 30 by early CH8 and will eat up all experience. I'd rather give Elite to somebody I don't use as heavily, since it will actually help. Not arguing anything against LexAira, but just stating why I like HolynAira so much.

Whenever advising new players I still give LexAira out alongside HolynAira as a equally-weighted alternative, despite my personal preferences.

And Tinny gets Continue upon promotion, IIRC. All it took for me to promote her was Wrathing in the arena and some C9 Dracos when I did LexTiltyu. I will definitely agree that AzelTiltyu is the superior pairing, but nevertheless, it's a fun pairing if you just like seeing Thoronbombing happen. More amusement, than anything.

But while I never personally did NoishAira (their low speed of pairing + movement issue is what turns me off from it---Lex at least has Hero Sword bonuses and Holyn get both the same move and Hero Sword Bonus), I do agree that it's pretty underrated. The skillset is great for the kids, Lakche will be awesome no matter what, and Ska's strength/def will be fine as long he has any physical father. The movement difference is the only real drawback, and Noish isn't particularly a good unit on his own either, making training him more tedious and thus could potentially lower the kids' (especially Ska's) bases. But otherwise, I plan on trying it sometimes.

Still. HolynAira OTP for li---*shot*

Oh, and Meteor is checked first, I think. It certainly activates more often. When Meteor doesn't activate Moonlight is good to fall back on.

...That and I almost exclusively use Hero Sword for Ayra after I obtain it, so it gets ~35 kills from Gen1 alone. Gen2 is Lakche kills everything, so by C10 Hero Sword gets 100 kills on it and Lakche has 85% (after ring) crit without any support.

Yeah I know. I'm horrible for favoritism, but at least I admit it.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Luminescent Blade

[Paperblade]

Depending on your team size and how good you are at EXP distribution, Arthur's promotion happens somewhere between Ch8 base, and Ch9 base, unless you use literally everyone and don't pass gold and the Elite Ring around in an efficient way. If you limit your team to only good people, for example you only "train" Celice/Lakche/Arthur/Oifaye/Delmud/Nanna/Aless/Shannan/Julia, while people like Altenna, Faval and Sety are useable as they come so they don't need training, and you use Lana as a healbot, then you can reasonably promote Arthur somewhere during Ch8.

And Skasaha... isn't?

[eclipse]

I'm currently gunning for Ayra/Noishe. . .because the only thing more ridiculous than Meteor is a critical somewhere in between.

[Aquilae]

Well, in my experience Arthur doesn't fare too well at Melgen since he faces relatively high hit rates (30-40 IIRC) and gets 2HKOed. Shannan has much higher base stats than Arthur and he can survive longer. Though, the army around Melgen is pretty unfriendly to almost everyone else.

[Mekkah]

And Skasaha... isn't?

I said the army consists of only good people, not that it has all the good people.

@Aquilae: if it's too dangerous to face all the enemies at once, he can take on a couple at a time, with Lana Libro' ing off that one hit he takes. The Thunder Mages he should be able to survive two hits from.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Mekkah

[Dark Sage]

Thing about giving Lackhe Balmung is that all you're doing is turning a broken unit into even more of a broken unit. Whereas having Shanan keep the Balmung ensures two broken units. Much better for your team overall.

[Thor Odinson]

I've done it a total of twice out of the 7 or 8 times I've played FE4 for shits and giggles. One of which was a run where I literally had Lakche kill everything important (other people still got mooks and all, so it's not like Lakche 30 everybody else 1).

Including hilarious kills on Arion, Alvis, and a epic three-turn battle with Yuris at endgame. It's like I said. I have a weakness to overkill.

The most important factor for me still remains Skasaher's HP and better average speed. Lakche is broken as hell and doesn't really care about that 3 points of DEF at endgame anyway, especially in mageland where Lakche's RES will suck no matter what.

And honestly? Holyn!Lakche's tanking ability is not bad. It's no WTF60%growths, but it's still good enough, and it works out better in the long run IMO.

Maybe not the most optimal pairing, yes, but still definitely one of her best, and definitely not overrated.

BECAUSE EVERY OTHER PERSON DOES LEXxAYRA ANYWAY.

I'd still say that in comparison, us HolynAyra shippers are still the minority compared to LexAyra shippers.

[CT075]

Despite having never actually using the pairing I'd actually go so far as to say that HolynAyra is better than LexAyra. Sure, there are no WTFEPICDEFENSETWINS, but this way Lex doesn't have to be glued to Ayra all the time. Holyn and Ayra have the same move, so it can't be that hard to have them stay together. Not to mention that, either way you get the Hero Sword. And while LexAyra has half a chapter on HolynAyra, having LexAyra means that you either have to take Ayra out of the battle for Verdane castle while Lex goes for the Hero Axe or you lose liek 7 turns of love points. Which basically makes HolynAyra roughly equal in speed.

But I will say that NoishAyra > HolynAyra. Despite move differences, Noish sucks enough that it doesn't make too much of a difference. Actually, this can help Noish's growth, since Noish is (probably) strong enough to kill what Ayra misses the kill on. And it starts at the same time as LexAyra but doesn't take Ayra out of commission while her husband goes after a Hero weapon. And Critical / Charge > Luna.

EDIT: Well, okay. NoishAyra *could* mean out on missing the Hero Sword. But still.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Camtech086

[Narga_Rocks]

EDIT: Well, okay. NoishAyra *could* mean out on missing the Hero Sword. But still.

Plan ahead, though. If you get enough love points they should have enough of a lead. Then just don't get married before getting the sword. Frankly, if you can get them all the way to 500 points that quickly, you are playing too slowly anyway.

The only real concern is that getting the Hero Sword (and 100 love points for the lucky man) might make it harder to prevent Ayra falling in love with someone else.

[Esaka]

I'd also like to mention AryaXJamka is awesome. Aryas skill transfer as well as holy blood fix the skill issue Jamka often gives to his kids. Not only this, but the have a reasonable def growth, a speed growth equal to AryaXHolyn, amazing str, and solid HP. The only gripe is the difficulty of passing down swords to Ska. But it's not like Lex doesn't also have this problem.

OVerated: BeowolfXLachesis, yes the swords are nice, but the speed is average as is the defense. He's not dodging much early game because of it. Which makes him more difficult to raise.