Is lying to children acceptable?

[Original Alear]

The only thing in life that's mandatory is death.

I don't really get the innocence argument. Honestly, can you or someone fill me in on why it's apparently more important than trust and in some cases intelligence?

I wrote an essay on innocence in Milton's Paradise Lost and Spenser's The Fairie Queene some time ago addressing this question, at least in part...maybe I will try and find it and summarise the salient points. For now, I'll go with what's on my mind...why is anything important? What is the end result of your life, humanity, the universe that we are seeking importance from? If anything, innocence is a quality once lost not regained, except through mental trauma, a unique perspective on the world which, if all perspectives are unique, may still be valuable as something worthy of protection for protection's sake.

[Phoenix]

I wrote an essay on innocence in Milton's Paradise Lost and Spenser's The Fairie Queene some time ago addressing this question, at least in part...maybe I will try and find it and summarise the salient points. For now, I'll go with what's on my mind...why is anything important? What is the end result of your life, humanity, the universe that we are seeking importance from? If anything, innocence is a quality once lost not regained, except through mental trauma, a unique perspective on the world which, if all perspectives are unique, may still be valuable as something worthy of protection for protection's sake.

Protecting what's valuable is nice, but I don't think it should be done with all abandon or at the cost of things that are more valuable. What's more valuable than innocence obviously varies from person to person so I'm not even going to go much farther there. I'm just shocked it seems more important than pretty much anything that gets in the way.

I didn't actually mean do it when the child is eight years old. It was just an example age. And you don't have to get that ready for adulthood that early.

I'm glad we agree on this.

The point is, there are some wonderful things about being a little kid, and destroying those only serves to, well, destroy them. As for why ever stop being children? Quite frankly, I'd like it if people could just stay little kids, but that's impossible, and even if it was possible there are some rather obvious flaws.

You keep saying 'destroy' but I highly doubt that's the only end result that's possible.

I wasn't talking about learning. I was talking about social life. Unless my experience is particularly atypical, it was much easier when I was younger than it is now.

It would take quite a bit of premature exposure to get the high school effect in first grade IMHO.

If you don't have to grow up yet, then why not enjoy the things you can't once you've grown up?

You can enjoy action figures, video games, Santa Claus and playing pirates and animals as an adult if you really wanted to

Am I missing something?

Yeah. The funny thing is, they never told me Santa Claus doesn't exist or anything like that. At some point I just figured it couldn't happen.

I found out the other way. You know the "Oh look all that stuff I asked for is neatly stuffed in the closet. Hey look, ToyRUs receipts ... wait a minute ..."

Sometimes those situations are good in the end.

If lying always led to terrible outcomes, I think people might have to consider stopping altogether, don't you?

Erm, yes. Thus the part about it being okay to lie/not tell people things.

I don't really object to not telling people things, outright lying is what I find to be 'unnecessary'. When people say it's a must or mandatory in good parenting I get a little peeved.

Well, obviously. There is, however, the possibility of someone bringing up the subject on their own, or me asking a question I don't realize I don't like the answer to. In the first case, they have the right to withhold information, in the second, I think it's perfectly okay for someone to lie to me.

You know I've never actually learned about anything that I regretted learning in the long run. Sure, some things are a real downer at first, but in the end, I wouldn't trade back knowledge for anything, even if learning it was a real pain at the time, but that's just me.

Neither do I, and that's a good thing. I think the idea of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are good things, and kids don't need to know about certain things until a certain point in time. People were talking about things like telling little kids about sex when I joined in. I don't think that's necessary.

I won't bad mouth childhood fantasies, but I do find them unnecessary when I consider the alternatives.

I said this before but I should probably bring it up again since it was quite awhile ago:

In place of a ... jolly old man who's greatest talent is breaking and entering, what would be so much worse about a child focusing on their parents? It's a special time of the year after all and would have been better for bonding than the alternative. I sure wouldn't have minded knowing at a younger age that my parents were the ones that got all that stuff. They sure could have kept me in line easier that's for sure

As for the tooth fairy ... um ... does she even have a defense here? Anyway I found out about the tooth fairy fraud so early on that when I lost a tooth, I just walked right up to my mother and traded it for the dollar. Eventually I started jacking up the price for my teeth. I was dealing with a human and not a fairy so that was the obvious route to go

You know to this day she pays me for various things, like trying food or reviewing things she's working on. Good thing I started young.

I am aware Santa Claus doesn't exist and I can no longer play imaginary games without caring what other people think. I'm pretty sure I'm past that.

Eh, all that's really holding anyone back from whatever they want to do is the social mindset. Not to say it's a bad thing in and of itself, but it is an inhibitor.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Phoenix

[Espinosa]

Lying to adults can be acceptable too. There's little virtue in truth (as in precision of information provided) if it stings.

[Original Alear]

You can enjoy action figures, video games, Santa Claus and playing pirates and animals as an adult if you really wanted to

Am I missing something?

Actually yes, society sometimes finds such habits weird and you have to deal with the awkward factor...

You know I've never actually learned about anything that I regretted learning in the long run. Sure, some things are a real downer at first, but in the end, I wouldn't trade back knowledge for anything, even if learning it was a real pain at the time, but that's just me.

Just wanna chime in and say I have.

Lying to adults can be acceptable too. There's little virtue in truth (as in precision of information provided) if it stings.

I disagree with that one. The handle of the pan stings the first time you touch it, but the truth, the knowledge, is still valuable and potentially virtuous. Virtue is, however, a hard thing to define...Confucius went in search of it but claimed, IIRC, to have never truly found it.

EDIT-Santa Claus does exist, but we took away all his powers so he doesn't succeed at doing his job.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Blue Mars

[Rewjeo]

You keep saying 'destroy' but I highly doubt that's the only end result that's possible.

Well, when I came in to this topic I saw some rather extreme stuff. I have seen some things, though, like specifically telling little kids "You're making us look stupid" when they play with something in public. That is too far, in my opinion.

It would take quite a bit of premature exposure to get the high school effect in first grade IMHO.

Yes, but some of the extreme things mentioned could, I think, get kids there early. Maybe not in first grade, but fourth? Yeah.

You can enjoy action figures, video games, Santa Claus and playing pirates and animals as an adult if you really wanted to

Am I missing something?

You can't do it without caring about what other people think, though. If you did in public, well, it wouldn't improve others' opinions of you, and if you did it in your basement, it's not quite the same.

I found out the other way. You know the "Oh look all that stuff I asked for is neatly stuffed in the closet. Hey look, ToyRUs receipts ... wait a minute ..."

Well, seeing presents from Santa Claus on Dec 23rd also helped me, but by that point I had sort of assumed that was the case, so it wasn't a shock to me.

I don't really object to not telling people things, outright lying is what I find to be 'unnecessary'. When people say it's a must or mandatory in good parenting I get a little peeved.

I think there are certain things that should be lied about, at least for a time. There are certain questions little kids shouldn't know the answer to, and some things that I think are worth thinking for a while. Maybe this is because I learned that these were lies when I was ready? Six year old me would have been seriously upset to find that Santa Claus wasn't real.

You know I've never actually learned about anything that I regretted learning in the long run. Sure, some things are a real downer at first, but in the end, I wouldn't trade back knowledge for anything, even if learning it was a real pain at the time, but that's just me.

Probably not big things, but I'm sure there are some small thins you didn't need to hear/see.

I won't bad mouth childhood fantasies, but I do find them unnecessary when I consider the alternatives.

I said this before but I should probably bring it up again since it was quite awhile ago:

In place of a ... jolly old man who's greatest talent is breaking and entering, what would be so much worse about a child focusing on their parents? It's a special time of the year after all and would have been better for bonding than the alternative. I sure wouldn't have minded knowing at a younger age that my parents were the ones that got all that stuff. They sure could have kept me in line easier that's for sure

As for the tooth fairy ... um ... does she even have a defense here? Anyway I found out about the tooth fairy fraud so early on that when I lost a tooth, I just walked right up to my mother and traded it for the dollar. Eventually I started jacking up the price for my teeth. I was dealing with a human and not a fairy so that was the obvious route to go

You know to this day she pays me for various things, like trying food or reviewing things she's working on. Good thing I started young.

As much as I love making fun of the fact that Santa breaks into houses and is an anagram for Satan, that's not what he's all about when you're little. He's a jolly old man who flies around the world and gives people presents. Don't you wish he was real? Also, Christmas has never been about just the presents for me. Although I certainly enjoy those, the family aspect and general atmosphere have always been what I like most. Maybe you've seen more situations different from mine, but in my experience I think all the lies I was told as a little kid were worthwhile.

Did you never listen for his sleigh bells? Or put out cookies for him? Wasn't that exciting to do?

I learned of the tooth fairy pretty early, too, but I still did the standard tooth under the pillow thing. That was fun. And I mostly brought her up because the only other creature like that is the Easter Bunny, and I never really bought that.

Eh, all that's really holding anyone back from whatever they want to do is the social mindset. Not to say it's a bad thing in and of itself, but it is an inhibitor.

And as a little kid, you don't have that inhibitor yet. I wouldn't want that to have been taken away from me earlier than when it was. I think that's one of the reasons theatre is so great. That all gets dropped. This is different than the case of lying about Santa Claus, though, which I think is worthwhile because, in my experience, no harm ever came of it.

[Phoenix]

Well, when I came in to this topic I saw some rather extreme stuff. I have seen some things, though, like specifically telling little kids "You're making us look stupid" when they play with something in public. That is too far, in my opinion.

Hahah, you know I'm actually embarrassed by my old memories of being a kid with the guts to play with hot wheels in public places. I would have rather been doing more grown up things personally. Innocence is just something I don't find a lot of value in.

You can't do it without caring about what other people think, though. If you did in public, well, it wouldn't improve others' opinions of you, and if you did it in your basement, it's not quite the same.

Caring what people think of you is optional, that's why I mentioned that you still 'could'. Doing socially unacceptable things always comes down to a simple choice. There are people out there who really don't care what others think of them so it's a simple choice is all I'm saying there.

Well, seeing presents from Santa Claus on Dec 23rd also helped me, but by that point I had sort of assumed that was the case, so it wasn't a shock to me.

I'd gotten suspicious but it wasn't until the closet incidents when I finally stopped letting my father lure me to the window to try and find the jolly man making his take off into the night. I only have fun in life when I succeed so failing to spot the man only hastened things.

I think there are certain things that should be lied about, at least for a time. There are certain questions little kids shouldn't know the answer to, and some things that I think are worth thinking for a while. Maybe this is because I learned that these were lies when I was ready? Six year old me would have been seriously upset to find that Santa Claus wasn't real.

Do you have examples, because there's nothing that comes to mind that 'should' be spun into a lie. Withheld? Certainly, but there's not one scenario I believe false information is a necessity. Not unless you're at war with your children or something.

Probably not big things, but I'm sure there are some small thins you didn't need to hear/see.

There are lots of tiny things I didn't need to see or hear. There are lots of enormous things I didn't need to see or hear. But there's nothing I want to unsee or unhear.

As much as I love making fun of the fact that Santa breaks into houses and is an anagram for Satan, that's not what he's all about when you're little. He's a jolly old man who flies around the world and gives people presents. Don't you wish he was real?

I don't like the idea of physics being so grossly violated, so no, not really, heheh. When I found out he wasn't real, things got complicated for me around Christmas time. My father kept insisting that he was real for a few more years so that just pissed me off, and going out to visit relatives during Christmas was hell since I was threatened at least twice not to spoil it for my little cousins. I could respect that and they never found out from me, but forcing me to lie my ass off to them repeatedly was going too far. I would have gladly gone somewhere else but spending time with my family with my kind of virtues just made Christmas a nuisance.

Also, Christmas has never been about just the presents for me. Although I certainly enjoy those, the family aspect and general atmosphere have always been what I like most. Maybe you've seen more situations different from mine, but in my experience I think all the lies I was told as a little kid were worthwhile.

Yeah I've been in completely different situations from you. Not even sure where I would start

Did you never listen for his sleigh bells? Or put out cookies for him? Wasn't that exciting to do?

No I was always just hanging out until my father stormed into my room and told me that Santa was leaving.

My first thought is "Why the hell didn't you tell me earlier?!"

Then he leads me out to the balcony and I search through thick clouds and airplane lights for something I'm getting this sinking feeling isn't there. My father's arms is still pointing out and I want to believe him but I've been standing there for thirty seconds ...

I learned of the tooth fairy pretty early, too, but I still did the standard tooth under the pillow thing. That was fun. And I mostly brought her up because the only other creature like that is the Easter Bunny, and I never really bought that.

It's easy to figure out the tooth fairy isn't real when you put the thing under the pillow but your parents don't know it fell out yet

And as a little kid, you don't have that inhibitor yet. I wouldn't want that to have been taken away from me earlier than when it was. I think that's one of the reasons theatre is so great. That all gets dropped. This is different than the case of lying about Santa Claus, though, which I think is worthwhile because, in my experience, no harm ever came of it.

Harm may or may not come from it. What bothers me about these little childhood fantasy enabling techniques is that they're considered necessary for the child's sake, done at any expense, and it's become so standard that like a flock of sheep, everyone is expected to do the same.

Let me ask you, would it bother you if you had kids and you ran into another parent who's kid was, despite knowing the truth about all these weird holidays happy and friends with yours. Would you be uncomfortable knowing that at virtually anytime, that man's kids might accidentally destroy that innocence and magic with what they know? Would you warn your kids that the other one's full of it. Would you ask the man to tell his kid not to bring it up, or just play along?

I've been that kid before and eventually I'm going to be that man, so I'm just a little curious about that.

[Rewjeo]

Hahah, you know I'm actually embarrassed by my old memories of being a kid with the guts to play with hot wheels in public places. I would have rather been doing more grown up things personally. Innocence is just something I don't find a lot of value in.

And you're now embarrassed because of that inhibitor :P Nothing bad ever came of you doing that, did it? And wasn't it fun to do it?

Caring what people think of you is optional, that's why I mentioned that you still 'could'. Doing socially unacceptable things always comes down to a simple choice. There are people out there who really don't care what others think of them so it's a simple choice is all I'm saying there.

Except you can't. A lot of people say the don't, but odds are they really care more which is why they bother to say the don't care. Now, you can do things in spite of caring, and all of my fondest recent memories are of that.

I'd gotten suspicious but it wasn't until the closet incidents when I finally stopped letting my father lure me to the window to try and find the jolly man making his take off into the night. I only have fun in life when I succeed so failing to spot the man only hastened things.

Did your family say that ALL the presents were from Santa? In my family, each person got a Santa present and then the others were from other family members, so the presents weren't secretly hidden. They were hidden, of course, but we knew they were there. That may be another difference.

Do you have examples, because there's nothing that comes to mind that 'should' be spun into a lie. Withheld? Certainly, but there's not one scenario I believe false information is a necessity. Not unless you're at war with your children or something.

"Where do babies come from?" But maybe you can just say mommy's tummy? Well, what if they ask "how do they get there?" Do you really want to explain that?

I don't like the idea of physics being so grossly violated, so no, not really, heheh. When I found out he wasn't real, things got complicated for me around Christmas time. My father kept insisting that he was real for a few more years so that just pissed me off, and going out to visit relatives during Christmas was hell since I was threatened at least twice not to spoil it for my little cousins. I could respect that and they never found out from me, but forcing me to lie my ass off to them repeatedly was going too far. I would have gladly gone somewhere else but spending time with my family with my kind of virtues just made Christmas a nuisance.

Wait, you don't want some guy to break the laws of the universe for the sake of making people happy? I think that would be pretty great.

I think the main reason for the difference in our opinions is our personal experiences. I agree that your dad should not have tried to force you to believe something, but in my circumstance that never happened so I never had anything negative come from the lies. I guess that's what I'd say: If only good things come from the lies, they're good, but once it becomes negative, go with the truth. Which quite frankly is an obvious statement. Go with what's good.

No I was always just hanging out until my father stormed into my room and told me that Santa was leaving.

My first thought is "Why the hell didn't you tell me earlier?!"

Then he leads me out to the balcony and I search through thick clouds and airplane lights for something I'm getting this sinking feeling isn't there. My father's arms is still pointing out and I want to believe him but I've been standing there for thirty seconds ...

For me, no one ever really forced me to believe. When I would "see" or "hear" him, it would be something like my sister saying, "Shh, let's see if we can hear Santa's bells!" and we'd all listen and I'd think I heard them. Your experience certainly sounds worse than mine.

It's easy to figure out the tooth fairy isn't real when you put the thing under the pillow but your parents don't know it fell out yet

lolz. I was late in losing my teeth, so I was very excited and my parents always knew when I lost them. By the time I stopped caring about them I knew the tooth fairy wasn't real, and I realized that I'd never want to use the gold dollars, so why get them?

Harm may or may not come from it. What bothers me about these little childhood fantasy enabling techniques is that they're considered necessary for the child's sake, done at any expense, and it's become so standard that like a flock of sheep, everyone is expected to do the same.

Unless my mind has warped my childhood into some happier version, it was never considered necessary for me to believe these things. I guess you could argue at first I was, but really, being read Christmas stories around Christmas is what lead me to believe in Santa. I was always left free to form my own opinion. And, now that I think more about it, I was never explicitly told these things were real. I asked my dad if the tooth fairy was real, and he told me she wasn't. I guess, then, I wasn't lied to, but information was withheld. I just took the stories to be true.

Let me ask you, would it bother you if you had kids and you ran into another parent who's kid was, despite knowing the truth about all these weird holidays happy and friends with yours. Would you be uncomfortable knowing that at virtually anytime, that man's kids might accidentally destroy that innocence and magic with what they know? Would you warn your kids that the other one's full of it. Would you ask the man to tell his kid not to bring it up, or just play along?

It wouldn't bother me, assuming the parents hadn't taught that kid that believing in those things was a bad thing to do. I would probably ask the other parents to ask their kid not to bring it up, but that's it. I guess that, after exploring my memories more, I agree that children shouldn't be explicitly lied to about certain things. I still think adult material can be lied about, but kids shouldn't be forced to believe in one thing or another.

[Phoenix]

And you're now embarrassed because of that inhibitor :P Nothing bad ever came of you doing that, did it? And wasn't it fun to do it?

People aren't always embarrassed over things that are explicitly bad. My primary concern in that bit is that I could have made far better use of my time in the long run.

Except you can't. A lot of people say the don't, but odds are they really care more which is why they bother to say the don't care. Now, you can do things in spite of caring, and all of my fondest recent memories are of that.

No I'm serious, some people really don't care. Anyone can actually reach an extreme emotional state where the same is true for them, though that's almost hilariously temporary

Did your family say that ALL the presents were from Santa? In my family, each person got a Santa present and then the others were from other family members, so the presents weren't secretly hidden. They were hidden, of course, but we knew they were there. That may be another difference.

No they didn't, thankfully, or it would have been that much more annoying.

"Where do babies come from?" But maybe you can just say mommy's tummy? Well, what if they ask "how do they get there?" Do you really want to explain that?

I'm not sure where lying becomes necessary here. If the damage from telling your kid anything resembling baby mechanics is that great, then you can always tell them that you'll explain in more fully when they're a little older. You can even start in steps, from, "You came from her stomach" to "I put you there" to "When two people love each other very very much ..." and so on. Explaining babies doesn't have to be a one day event either. Saying they'll become too curious for that technique to work is just a cop out. The only threat curiosity brings is that the child might go to someone else to learn about it, and yet that tends to happen anyway.

Wait, you don't want some guy to break the laws of the universe for the sake of making people happy? I think that would be pretty great.

Why on earth would I want something like that?

I think the main reason for the difference in our opinions is our personal experiences.

Always is, always will be, but there's more than just bad experience behind my opinions on being honest and lying to children.

I agree that your dad should not have tried to force you to believe something, but in my circumstance that never happened so I never had anything negative come from the lies.

I don't only avoid lying because it has negative potential. If that was the case, I would be just as turned off by the truth and alternate between them like a normal person

I guess that's what I'd say: If only good things come from the lies, they're good, but once it becomes negative, go with the truth. Which quite frankly is an obvious statement. Go with what's good.

Ideas of good and bad aren't guidelines I could ever follow when it comes to this since I would have to choose between my own, which I've found to be too bias, and someone else's, which I've also found to be too bias.

For me, no one ever really forced me to believe. When I would "see" or "hear" him, it would be something like my sister saying, "Shh, let's see if we can hear Santa's bells!" and we'd all listen and I'd think I heard them. Your experience certainly sounds worse than mine.

It wasn't bad until I was forced to participate.

lolz. I was late in losing my teeth, so I was very excited and my parents always knew when I lost them. By the time I stopped caring about them I knew the tooth fairy wasn't real, and I realized that I'd never want to use the gold dollars, so why get them?

I needed the money so like I said before, I started raising the price for my teeth. I've been doing 'business' with my mother since I was a little kid apparently.

Unless my mind has warped my childhood into some happier version, it was never considered necessary for me to believe these things. I guess you could argue at first I was, but really, being read Christmas stories around Christmas is what lead me to believe in Santa. I was always left free to form my own opinion. And, now that I think more about it, I was never explicitly told these things were real. I asked my dad if the tooth fairy was real, and he told me she wasn't. I guess, then, I wasn't lied to, but information was withheld. I just took the stories to be true.

Ah lucky, you

I assumed they were true at first because I was too young to know any better. I wasn't forced to believe in Santa, only fooled for some years. My father was a pretty good actor hahah.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Phoenix

[Aere]

There's a difference between not telling the truth, and flat out lying.

Columbus day is not telling the truth. Yes, Columbus did discover America, yes, that's amazing. But the whole truth would include the genocide of all Native American culture south of Canada. One could figure the latter part out later, and come to his own realization. But unless that person is preaching Columbus's greatness (And honestly, who does that?) skipping that part of the truth likely will only affect his opinion on Columbus in the first place. And, a child will likely not need to hear of the millions of deaths that really happened.

Lying is something entirely different. Lying is saying Santa Claus isn't real. When the kid finds out, that can shatter him. Magic is something all kids want to believe in; That's why a kid can amuse himself for hours, just by his imagination or by walking around. Who are YOU to tell him, something truly wonderful and interesting to fantasize about, is just that? Just skip the whole thing in the first place.

[Original Alear]

Columbus day is not telling the truth. Yes, Columbus did discover America, yes, that's amazing. But the whole truth would include the genocide of all Native American culture south of Canada. One could figure the latter part out later, and come to his own realization. But unless that person is preaching Columbus's greatness (And honestly, who does that?) skipping that part of the truth likely will only affect his opinion on Columbus in the first place. And, a child will likely not need to hear of the millions of deaths that really happened.

I'm pretty sure there were not millions of Tainos there to begin with who died as a result of Columbus's discoveries, AFAIK it was not a very big patch of land, and blaming the deaths of other native americans on columbus is a bit unfair.

[Zanarkin]

Who are YOU to tell him, something truly wonderful and interesting to fantasize about, is just that?

I don't see why you can't tell them that fantasies are just fantasies. In fact it possibly is the best thing one can do. Imagine what a child could do that fantasizes of flying with wings, yet no one tells him that is impossible. Besides its not like you can't fantasize about impossible things knowing they are impossible.

[Aere]

I'm pretty sure there were not millions of Tainos there to begin with who died as a result of Columbus's discoveries, AFAIK it was not a very big patch of land, and blaming the deaths of other native americans on columbus is a bit unfair.

You're right, the New World wasn't discovered by Columbus, and other Europeans didn't follow his discoveries. As far as Europeans knew, it hadn't existed. Don't give me some bull about the Vikings discovering it centuries before, because they didn't leave any lasting mark upon the land. If nobody had discovered the Americas at that time (COLUMBUS), the native americans' cultures would have remained on the same track until America was discovered.

The majority of the Native American stereotype was destroyed as Europeans came over, which was because Columbus had found a way to profit from that land. And as more land was discovered, so were more natives. Indirectly, Columbus put the all the American natives on the path to destruction, because the rest were found because of him.

I don't see why you can't tell them that fantasies are just fantasies. In fact it possibly is the best thing one can do. Imagine what a child could do that fantasizes of flying with wings, yet no one tells him that is impossible. Besides its not like you can't fantasize about impossible things knowing they are impossible.

It's better to not start the fantasy of Santa Claus in the first place, rather then lead the child on until he truly believes it. And you left out the end part, where I said it was better to skip the whole thing, by telling the child before that idea starts to really affect his mindset. Tell him magic doesn't exist, and he can still think about it; He'l just know it isn't real.

[Zanarkin]

Knowing Magic isn't real doesn't mean you can't think of it. I know this because as a child i knew (for whatever reason can't really say somebody told me, perhaps i grew up being told about it i don't know...) that magic was non-existant (aside from god [and thats because i live in a catholic household and what not, i don't hold this vaues]). That doesn't mean Magic had nothing to do in my life. In fact i loved to repeat things i saw in cartoons (incantations or kamehamehas). I dreamed of flying, eventhough its not possible. I dreamed of growing wings eventhough i know its not possible. My point is, no child will stop imagining because they are told its not real.

[Aere]

Knowing Magic isn't real doesn't mean you can't think of it. I know this because as a child i knew (for whatever reason can't really say somebody told me, perhaps i grew up being told about it i don't know...) that magic was non-existant (aside from god [and thats because i live in a catholic household and what not, i don't hold this vaues]). That doesn't mean Magic had nothing to do in my life. In fact i loved to repeat things i saw in cartoons (incantations or kamehamehas). I dreamed of flying, eventhough its not possible. I dreamed of growing wings eventhough i know its not possible. My point is, no child will stop imagining because they are told its not real.

Exactly, this is pretty much what I said in my last sentence.

[Phoenix]

Who are YOU to tell him, something truly wonderful and interesting to fantasize about, is just that? Just skip the whole thing in the first place.

The only kids I'm likely to be involved with are my own ... so I guess that would make me their FATHER

I don't consider telling children fantasies an actual step in growing up. Its entirely optional, so rather than skipping it, I would just put something more useful in its place.

My point is, no child will stop imagining because they are told its not real.

I think this is actually a good thing. People who don't imagine the supposedly impossible don't go out of their way to bring it about, speaking of inventors and innovators. Having an imagination geared toward the fantastic isn't something I can disagree with, it's only the actual deed of falsifying information(lying) that I disagree with.

[Aere]

I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across. I'll try to summarize it :P

A child imagines of flying, and superpowers (I'm just naming random things). He's obviously heard of these things from somewhere, whether it be a movie or just somebody showing him a picture. Or, maybe seeing a bird fly and imagining himself in the bird's place.

If an adult, say his father, tells the boy flying and superpowers aren't real, the boy can still wish they are. He can still daydream about such things, and yes, maybe further in his life he will attempt to make those impossible dreams into reality (science or w/e). So, there is a great (potential and unlikely) outcome, and no real harm came of the truth anyway.

If those influential to him say flying and superpowers are real, the young boy, who could easily assume he possesses such abilities (He's like 4 ), could potentially do something to endanger himself. Climbing up onto a tall object and trying to fly, for example.

Well, that's a pretty bad explanation I think, but does it get the point across?

EDIT:: What the hell, Phoenix, your avatar changed while I was typing. Double take there haha.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Aere

[Phoenix]

A child imagines of flying, and superpowers (I'm just naming random things). He's obviously heard of these things from somewhere, whether it be a movie or just somebody showing him a picture. Or, maybe seeing a bird fly and imagining himself in the bird's place.

If an adult, say his father, tells the boy flying and superpowers aren't real, the boy can still wish they are. He can still daydream about such things, and yes, maybe further in his life he will attempt to make those impossible dreams into reality (science or w/e). So, there is a great (potential and unlikely) outcome, and no real harm came of the truth anyway.

If those influential to him say flying and superpowers are real, the young boy, who could easily assume he possesses such abilities (He's like 4 ), could potentially do something to endanger himself. Climbing up onto a tall object and trying to fly, for example.

It could happen. I was getting hurt too often as a child to do anything particularly dangerous, though.

Eg: Phoenix Logic: Falling three feet hurts, falling five feet hurts more ... so I'm definitely not going to jump from the top of the stair case to test this parachute theory of mine ...

Well, that's a pretty bad explanation I think, but does it get the point across?

Good enough I guess.

EDIT:: What the hell, Phoenix, your avatar changed while I was typing. Double take there haha.

Yeah, it'll do that

[Guest Goldie]

I've lived life telling only what Goldie here sees as truth, I won't stop now and never will hehehehehheee!

Honesty is far more fun, along with speaking what's in the mind ohohohooo! Speaking you, and all that is you! Such joy full of entertainment everything becomes! Indeed!

[Bluedoom]

Do you believe that lying to children is an acceptable practice? Before you say "no", consider this. Santa Clause isn't real. He's just a big lie that your parents (probably, unless you were the weird kid in kindergarten whose parents told him the truth right away) told you. And it wasn't a white lie or anything either. It was active deception. Your parents telling you to place cookies, them eating the cookies, and them hiding the presents. This is far beyond a simple lie. And yet, a majority of the parents in the country I live in around Christmas time (not all of these families are Christian, mind you, so it IS strange that they celebrate a Christian holiday anyways. For example, I don't know of many non-Jewish people who celebrate Hanukkah, but that's a tangent for another day I suppose) engage in this active deception.

Things not so black and white anymore?

It is totally acceptable.

I was the weird child who got told by his parents (in 1st grade though) that Santa isn't real. I totally accepted it. Same thing with the tooth fairy.

Added to that I'm not Christian(nor do I do anything religious) and we've got your avreage guy who's up for the facts.

It is TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE TO LIE TO CHILDREN! Especially when its about sex... until they hit puberty, I suppose.

The Santa shit and stuff should be done away with though. Wreck their dreams, HEHE! I have lots of sadistic fun telling the truth sometimes to children much younder than me. >:D

Edited December 29, 2011 by Marth

[Celice]

Some children have enjoyed being told Santa isn't real. It's all in how the parents try to convey it. I've heard children get told that the reason they made up Santa was to show how much they love their children, as a way of giving them special things under the cover of a holiday or what-have-you.

And some children are deeply moved that their parents would orchestrate so much stuff to give them a fanciful month full of all those thematic and colorful elements which Christmas brings along.

(and of course, naturally, not everyone cared )

[Rehab]

I wouldn't think lying to children when having their safety in mind is completely unacceptable, and neither is the cold hard truth deal with it stay alive really objectionable, but I think neither extreme is really completely considerate of their emotional well-being, if adhered to rigidly. You can explain things to a child without insulting their intelligence or shaming them out of using their imagination, and you can tell them fantasies without setting them up to be disappointed. I don't think anybody would ever try to change their world without simultaneously imagining how it could be better, and realizing that it's aways from perfect.

Something to the extent of a knowing wink can do the trick to let a kid in on the secret, but I think it's especially beneficial to ask a kid what they think, try to open or shift their mind to new possibilities and see where things go. To be there for them, rather than molding them for yourself.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Rehab