Is lying to children acceptable?

[Lux Aeterna]

As a whole it seems we're almost in agreement, but I'll tie up some lose ends.

I don't really see this as a healthy mentality, but that's just me.

I think it is for children. Like I said, if children knew the way the earth was from the get go, they'd start out cynical and end up bitter, miserable... suicidal, maybe. So that's why they need a gentle easing into how the world is, in my opinion. Little steps, when they can take it.

What you don't know doesn't immediately effect you, but just about anything and everything you don't know know about posses a much greater danger to you.

That guy skulking around the corner.

That landmine.

That final warning from the IRS.

But I know what you're getting at and it's not physical danger. Just pointing that out. As for harsh truths and versus little tiny lies, either one can do serious harm, and I don't agree with the latter being the rule of thumb for situations where the truth is harsh.

I hate to totally cop out here but ultimately it's a gray area that needs individual judgment to decide whether they need a truth or a lie.

Well what's so harsh about children knowing their parents care about them enough to buy them presents during the holidays and not relying on(partly or fully) magic? This in itself seems like a lack of faith in humanity to me cause Santa clearly isn't human :P

I think kids that know their parents love them, provide for them, are honest with them, and so on and so forth could provide way more optimism than a guy only courteous enough to drop by once a year while blackmailing them with coal lump threats and bribing them with presents.

But that's just me.

.... hm... I admit, you have a good point there. It could go either way, I suppose. But my focus isn't on Santa mostly, I was just responding to Spoon's example.

So explain history, but don't explain the gory parts or don't do so in much detail.

Exactly. I don't mean to lie about it. plus the detail part brings up the fact that most children's eyes would glaze over

Edited December 29, 2010 by Iksel

[Kanami]

By making Santa bring the presents, the child doesn't get angry when mommy and daddy can't afford to buy them a football stadium

Christmas is a tainted religious practice! (Completely contradicting what I said earlier, but not really) The Santa myth is pretty much a tradition that most people follow, simply because others follow it. Taking the Oath vs Affirmation example I provided earlier, it's ingrained into our (western) society to the point where it's normal to buy presents and give the credit to some fat man in red clothes.

Having never believed in Santa (I was 12 when I first found out what/who Santa was, parents never celebrated Christmas, and I thought the shopping Santa was the shops mascot character XD) I really can't say that not having a Santa/magic creature in ones childhood is negative. I mean there's realistic hope as well, "I want to be a fireman" is still better then, "Be good or the boogey man will eat you."

I'm going to make the blatantly rude remark; Religion screws society up.

Not sure how that's relevant, but it came to my mind while writing this.

Religion is another good example of lying. Now before people start jumping at that comment, face it. Not all religions in the world can be true, If you're a Christian, think of the lying as Muslims, Buddhists etc, and vice versa.

While children/teens/adults convert to a religion, it's predominantly the family structure that passes down religion. (With converting it's usually an attack on a moment of weakness, or nagging friends) Ones environment (nurture) strongly influences what one believes in, but what if Christians are right? Does that mean muslims and Jews will all burn in hell? The non-Christians might not be telling their children lies intentionally, but they're passing on false information.

It's all up to the parent really, if you have on child who wasn't lied to as a child, and one which was. Raised exactly the same, I don't think I'd be able to label which child is better or more mentally advanced. While I don't agree believing Santa makes children happier, I've found people who strongly believed in Santa usually tend to be (from my experience) more friendly and outgoing, whereas, someone who was told the truth that the world was a shitty place, are more investigative, (often more intelligent) but also dark gloomy emo's wandering interenet forums.. oh wait XD jk

[Phoenix]

I think it is for children. Like I said, if children knew the way the earth was from the get go, they'd start out cynical and end up bitter, miserable... suicidal, maybe. So that's why they need a gentle easing into how the world is, in my opinion. Little steps, when they can take it.

No real arguments here, though I think children really ought to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

I'm going to make the blatantly rude remark; Religion screws society up.

Not sure how that's relevant, but it came to my mind while writing this.

It's ... partially relevant since Christmas was originally a cut-and-pasted religious holiday.

Religion is another good example of lying. Now before people start jumping at that comment, face it. Not all religions in the world can be true, If you're a Christian, think of the lying as Muslims, Buddhists etc, and vice versa.

The formula here is either one is right and all the rest are wrong, or all of them are wrong.

While children/teens/adults convert to a religion, it's predominantly the family structure that passes down religion. (With converting it's usually an attack on a moment of weakness, or nagging friends) Ones environment (nurture) strongly influences what one believes in, but what if Christians are right? Does that mean muslims and Jews will all burn in hell? The non-Christians might not be telling their children lies intentionally, but they're passing on false information.

Unintentional lies are not something I get bent out of shape about. There's no point of even complaining about absolute inevitables like religious beliefs. The same can be said of science. We work with what we believe is the truth at the time, facts or faith. My only issue with lying is doing so on purpose. If I'm giving someone false information that I believe is true ... well OOPS. Sorry about that. That's my stance anyway.

It's all up to the parent really, if you have on child who wasn't lied to as a child, and one which was. Raised exactly the same, I don't think I'd be able to label which child is better or more mentally advanced. While I don't agree believing Santa makes children happier, I've found people who strongly believed in Santa usually tend to be (from my experience) more friendly and outgoing, whereas, someone who was told the truth that the world was a shitty place, are more investigative, (often more intelligent) but also dark gloomy emo's wandering interenet forums.. oh wait XD jk

There's really no way to predict how children will turn out, and there's no consensus on how to raise children, just social norms. So yeah I'mma have emo forum kids I guess.

[Esau of Isaac]

Phoenix, they are children. If anything, introducing them to a fable and then gradually letting them know as they grow that it is a lie introduces them to the concept of falsification, and the fact that our fantasies are not as real as we wish them to be. It allows the child to experience the culture of their peers and enjoy the magical world the rest of them are being brought up in, while simultaneously presenting them to the real world as they slowly become adults.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, they are children. If anything, introducing them to a fable and then gradually letting them know as they grow that it is a lie introduces them to the concept of falsification, and the fact that our fantasies are not as real as we wish them to be. It allows the child to experience the culture of their peers and enjoy the magical world the rest of them are being brought up in, while simultaneously presenting them to the real world as they slowly become adults.

No real arguments here, though I think children really ought to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

There's really no way to predict how children will turn out, and there's no consensus on how to raise children, just social norms. So yeah I'mma have emo forum kids I guess.

[Lux Aeterna]

Religion is another good example of lying. Now before people start jumping at that comment, face it. Not all religions in the world can be true, If you're a Christian, think of the lying as Muslims, Buddhists etc, and vice versa.

I wouldn't exactly say religions see others as lying (well most), but rather that they just believe in a false truth. They aren't deliberately trying to lie, they just believe in something that isn't true and preach it to others.

Note that I'm speaking generally--I'm not referring to any religion in particular.

[Fire Emblem Addict]

My answer is no unless it protects the child from physical or emotional harm. The problem with lying (to anybody for that matter) is that the liar can never be sure what the consequences of his/her deceptiveness are for the victim. As for santa claus, the question that begs to be asked is "what's wrong with telling the kids that mommy/daddy bought the the presents?" Is there really anything to be lost by doing that? I should think not, in fact, telling the kids that their parents bought them the presents would foster a positive relationship between the children and the parents. Just my thoughts

[lolDeath]

Children are not equipped to deal with a lot of things, in many cases they can neither understand nor handle the truth. Kids are stupid.

[Tangerine]

Children are not equipped to deal with a lot of things, in many cases they can neither understand nor handle the truth. Kids are stupid.

That goes for a lot of adults too .

[Magical CC]

It's adults's duty to let the kids believe in good and innocent stuff like Mr.Santa. Telling them the truth in this case is cruel and will harm their childhood which is a bad thing. Sure, they will soon learn the brutal side of life but let them enjoy their innocent while it last.

[Dr.Sholes]

Get ready for a rant...

If they weren't so babied all their lives they would be able to handle reality. In all honesty most people are sheltered from everything their childhood and when they get into the real world are overwhelmed and it's just a mess. I'm against lying to kids because it shows a lack of respect and it over-shelters them.

[Bearissoslow]

Yes, no amount of "they lied to me!!! :(" will change the fact that childhood is the developmental stage for all human beings. Without a functioning psyche to adapt to the world around them through personal experience, children grow up to be fucked up people.

[Fire Emblem Addict]

I'm of the opinion that children should be taught to think skeptically instead of taught to follow certain ideologies without question (e.g. Santa Claus). I guess the best thing to do when a child asks you a question is to respond with "what do you think?" and then with "why do you think that?" and encourage them to defend their position with a logical response. Now if this becomes impossible/impractical, I think the best thing would be to tell them the truth. Yes it might be painful to realize that Santa doesn't exist when you're six years old but it'll hurt a lot more if you get told Santa doesn't exist at the age of 10. Beliefs that have been instilled in children at an early age are much harder to shake off and the more you wait, the more difficult it will be for them to abandon the "fairytales".

[Anouleth]

I don't think it matters. I really don't think that a child will grow up 'warped' or 'twisted' because you lied to them, or didn't lie to them enough, or told them the wrong lies or whatever.

I think lying to children isn't right, as in most cases it will damage the child's views on everything they've been taught. When my parents told me about Santa Clause, I was scepticle since it went against everything I'd already been taught (magic and flying reindeers? Even in kindergarten I didn't believe that) and after I got my parents to confess, I stared to question whether or not my religion was real, and whether or not God was like Santa Clause.

Why is that a bad thing?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Black★Star

[Phoenix]

It's adults's duty to let the kids believe in good and innocent stuff like Mr.Santa. Telling them the truth in this case is cruel and will harm their childhood which is a bad thing. Sure, they will soon learn the brutal side of life but let them enjoy their innocent while it last.

So kids just can't enjoy life if they don't think the world is full of magic and wonder, is that what you're saying? Because I have to disagree. Humans adapt pretty damn fast, and pretty damn well, otherwise we wouldn't survive. What kids find out in early life about the world around them isn't what messes them up, it's what happens at home revolving around them and their caregivers and anyone else closely involved. Finding out people have their faces shot off and fed to hyenas in Africa, or learning about other atrocities is going to bug them for maybe two hours, and then they'll forget about it, and any other time it comes up, they'll have had time to digest it, and become like most of us, numb to it to varying degrees, or committed to stopping it, like a few others.

I'm sorry to say it like this but "innocence" is a bit of a joke to me. I think it's a parent's duty to ensure that their children are capable of taking care of themselves in life, not making their childhoods as big a magical fantasy as possible to compensate for the incoming BS of life. It's more important to use their childhood to strengthen them for it, not weaken them for it. And you may not see it living in the western world, but not every parent is capable of pulling this magic veil of mystery and innocence preserving bliss over a child's eyes. It's a nice idea to raise kids in a way that gradually introduces them to the world, but direct falsehood from parents isn't necessarily a good idea for that, and jeopardizes another critical area of parenting called trust.

If they weren't so babied all their lives they would be able to handle reality. In all honesty most people are sheltered from everything their childhood and when they get into the real world are overwhelmed and it's just a mess. I'm against lying to kids because it shows a lack of respect and it over-shelters them.

Agreed so far, but I'd like to add that lying to children also has the potential to do something my own parents never anticipated, which I'll bring up in a second. One thing that irks me though ...

Why do people seem to think the only choices they have in life are to either tell the harsh truth or mercifully lie? There's four options, not two.

1: Truth

2: Postponement

3: Answering questions with questions

4: Lie

Why 4 is the rule of thumb with kids is beyond me(I'm speaking facetiously mind you, I've got a good idea why it is)

I don't think it matters. I really don't think that a child will grow up 'warped' or 'twisted' because you lied to them, or didn't lie to them enough, or told them the wrong lies or whatever.

That's taking the whole subject very lightly though, isn't it? It's not taking much of anything into consideration from the looks of things. Can you consider this?:

A parent generally wants the best for their child, but what the best actually is is defined by them which leads to either truth or fairy tales. A lot of people seem to think that lying to children is healthy for them because it teaches them to think and be skeptical, but I don't think that justifies it alone. First off ... children do NOT need assistance from their parents to learn that people will lie to them, PERIOD. Any child that isn't locked up in a basement with no media access all their childhood is going to learn that people lie. The world is going to deceive them time and time again so making it a duty for parents or painting it as something that's necessary, to me is a giant load of BS. Anything and everything is inherently useful for something, but it's not necessary from the parents who's power comes from trust and they don't need their caregivers to learn that people are trying to put false information in their heads. This is usually automatic for anyone active in society, young and old alike. This quote(forgot where it's from) "They'll learn it from somewhere." comes to mind.

Now let me present a wild parenting idea here:

What if a parent did just the opposite? What if a parent vowed never to lie to their children under any circumstances in life? What if they chose to either tell them the truth, or postpone the answer for a later time? Or even FE Addict's idea? What if a child growing up could actually trust their parents completely? They're taught with none of the normal crap mixed in for that innocence preserving flavor. You might say, "but how are they going to learn to think and reason for themselves?" Uh, look above at the comment about the world and all the dishonesty in it. Parents who aren't over sheltering their kids are exposing them to liars and deception ALL THE TIME, but aren't necessarily the cause of it if they make themselves trustworthy guardians. A decent parent wouldn't be trying to dictate every single step a child takes in life anyway, since that's counterproductive to the overall goal. Instead I would hope they would be trying to instill a stronger intellect in the child while simultaneously protecting their position of power through the trust honesty generally creates.

Now take these truthful parents and child and look at the potential results this can create. These parents never deceive the child, ever. There have been hard times still, and there have been things that would have hurt less to not be said, but what has this child likely considered while growing up? His parents, always tell him or her the truth, or tell him or her to wait until they're old enough to fully understand it, meanwhile, teachers in schools, friends, strangers, people on the television and everyone else he or she can recall has deceived them at some point, and numerous times at that. That has the potential to ease the burden of parenthood during the teenage years by establishing trust between parents and their children, a deeper trust than IMO is otherwise possible. Trusting someone deeply does not impede your ability to think for yourself. Again, a decent parent would at least try to instill a stronger intellect in the child. Protecting trust through complete honesty and bringing up smarter children are not mutually exclusive methods of parenting, nor do they compromise independence when done together in a right way.

Now using a common example of rebellion ... when the parents say "Drugs are bad, don't use them.", who is the teen more likely to listen to now, the doped out friends, or the parents who have to this day never intentionally mislead them intentionally? Think about that. Really think about it for a minute. If you had to compare your parents to everyone else in the world and realized what they were by said comparison, it's night and day's difference. So growing up, who would you always consider before everyone else? The one or two people that love you enough to not put garbage information in your brain, or the others who's first concern is always themselves? (people only lie to protect themselves from emotions, feelings, and pain they don't want to experience) Being honest with people over time makes it easier and easier for them to trust you, and distrust others. It slowly but surely puts you in a category separate from other people, and I think it's important for parents to not be lumped in with other people to a child growing up, because when that happens, the parents have no means universally effective means to guide a child against the whims of others(including the child's) outside of force, brute, monetary, authoritive, or religious.

As for what my own parents didn't anticipate? (no need to read this if you're not interested in vague personal history, there's an overview after it anyway)

They didn't anticipate that I would eventually equate them to nothing more than blood relatives that I care for more than other people. That's it. I don't look to them for guidance or council, ever. Never will again. I stopped so many years ago. I was never able to look to my parents as my parents, but rather as the two people who raised me and are related to me by blood. That's not to say I don't love them, but the only thing their lying produced in me was some bad memories and feelings. I learned deception from my parents before anyone else, so I generally trusted others more than them (I was a kid, what do you expect?) until I learned otherwise and was extremely fortunate to not be caught up in some of the things other people are as a result(drugs, teenage sex, gangs, you name it). It's pretty much a miracle. Still, that left me with no one to trust as a whole, and having this deep longing for one. My world view throughout early life was "There's me, and then there's everybody else." It's a logical viewpoint I suppose, but in me it produced a feeling of complete inescapable isolation from most everyone else, and it's probably not ever going to fully go away. In someone else it might cause depression, or an anti-social outlook growing up, which is a gateway to a whole slew of other problems. Fortunately in most it just produces stuff like this (speaking facetiously again, I don't think this is very fortunate at all)

It's adults's duty to let the kids believe in good and innocent stuff like Mr.Santa. Telling them the truth in this case is cruel and will harm their childhood which is a bad thing. Sure, they will soon learn the brutal side of life but let them enjoy their innocent while it last.

Other than that, there are other issues I believe are related to it in various ways.

Most people can get a lot of personal information out of me that I wouldn't be caught dead telling my parents or other family members. I won't outright claim that distance from distrust growing up is the direct/sole cause of this, but I suspect that it is at least partly the reason. Even if it's not universal I believe it is the reason with me. This may be the case with a lot of people. I notice many people have little trouble opening up to people they otherwise barely know about real personal matters they don't seem to share with others closer to them in life. Whether it's the same cause for everyone who does that, I can't say, but I do know that I'd generally like to be more upfront about personal issues with people closer to me in life. I can't though. It's just not in me. It really should be my parents that I open up to about serious issues in my life, but it's more likely to be someone I roleplay with online. I pick internet buddies or total strangers for confiding in before them or other family each and every single time without fail or exception. That's just what my upbringing produced.

So ^that's what the lying method produced in this particular specimen. I didn't turn out completely messed up, but I won't be passing on this method, since it didn't get the results they wanted.

It didn't guide me into becoming the kind of person my parents wanted: I rebelled.

It didn't protect my innocence: I trusted in others as a whole, and learned about most things far too quickly.

It didn't make my childhood any brighter: I learned that I'm pretty much on my own in life before I was old enough to deal with that reality in a healthy way. I'm extremely pessimistic by nature and I'm barely beginning to climb out of that bottomless hole of a mentality.

It didn't bring us any closer together: it put a rift between us I can't quite bridge, and it's only because of who I made myself into through complete reliance on my religion that we're even on as good terms as we currently are.

So forget that you heard this from me, I'm only speaking from my own experience and from what I've seen in the lives of people and relatives I know/knew. I mean who would you have to hear this from to actually consider it? It's probably not me so I'd recommend pretending someone you would normally listen to said it.

--------------------------------------

Oh and by the way, what I meant when I said "People only lie to protect themselves from emotions, feelings, and pain they don't want to experience." is that people can say they're looking out for someone else by lying to them, but I don't believe that's the case. I believe that when people lie to their kids to protect them from this harsh reality, it's really just them protecting themselves from feeling guilty as a result of their children's temporary(... and it is temporary) pain. That's how human nature works. When we lie it's not about them, it's about how we feel about them. Honesty works the same way.

Hell, I'll admit right now that the very reasons I want to be honest with other people are so that

A: I don't have to experience the emotions and feelings of being caught in a lie, which are admittedly quite awful

B: To make myself out to be trustworthy to others and so my word will have more sway with people than it otherwise would

C: To hold myself to a standard of living that I've chosen

Tl:dr (then what are you doing here? )

Summary: Honesty has the potential to ease the burden of parenthood during the teenage years by establishing trust between parents and their children, a deeper trust than IMO is otherwise possible. Trusting someone deeply does not impede your ability to think for yourself. Again, a decent parent would at least try to instill a stronger intellect in the child. Protecting trust through complete honesty and bringing up smarter children are not mutually exclusive methods of parenting, nor do they compromise independence when done together in a right way.

[Original Alear]

Summary: Honesty has the potential to ease the burden of parenthood during the teenage years by establishing trust between parents and their children, a deeper trust than IMO is otherwise possible. Trusting someone deeply does not impede your ability to think for yourself. Again, a decent parent would at least try to instill a stronger intellect in the child. Protecting trust through complete honesty and bringing up smarter children are not mutually exclusive methods of parenting, nor do they compromise independence when done together in a right way.

Makes sense to me. I think this is an excellent summary of how to be a good parent, which is one reason why I am not particularly interested in having children. I would lie to my children at some times and tell them the truth at other times, just to fool myself into thinking I was making them happy.

Tl:dr (then what are you doing here? )

The same thing I do every night, pinky. Trying to take over the world.

[Lilmik11]

Lying to a children is sometimes mendatory. You can't tell to a 6 years old about sex. It's just not right. Children need to keep their innocence, because if they don't then, what kind of world are we living in?

[Original Alear]

Lying to a children is sometimes mendatory. You can't tell to a 6 years old about sex. It's just not right. Children need to keep their innocence, because if they don't then, what kind of world are we living in?

A world without innocence of sex not a world without innocence.

It was when god saw us clothed, ashamed, and afraid of our near nakedness following the eating of the apple that he grew angry at us and threw us from Eden, no?

Edited September 6, 2011 by Blue Mars

[Esau of Isaac]

Lying to a children is sometimes mendatory. You can't tell to a 6 years old about sex. It's just not right.

Can you define what you mean here when you say "just not right"?

Children need to keep their innocence, because if they don't then, what kind of world are we living in?

An inane, set-up question if I've ever heard one.

[Lux Aeterna]

Lying to a children is sometimes mendatory. You can't tell to a 6 years old about sex.

Yes I can.

It's just not right.

I'm sorry, but... when did you decide what's right or wrong for everyone?

Children need to keep their innocence, because if they don't then, what kind of world are we living in?

A world where children don't have innocence. What are you actually trying to get at, here?

Edited September 6, 2011 by Lux Aeterna

[Phoenix]

Lying to a children is sometimes mendatory.

The only thing in life that's mandatory is death.

I don't really get the innocence argument. Honestly, can you or someone fill me in on why it's apparently more important than trust and in some cases intelligence?

[Freohr Datia]

Honestly, I don't understand why any of these topics are even made, or at least mostly I'm thinking that with this one, because no matter how much people try to argue their point, everybody's gotta disagree with something. Everybody's got their own morals and everyone else usually refuses to change their own.

*is going to be a hypocrite and state her own views/experiences*

My dad said that he tells us santa exists because it gives kids a fun and interesting childhood and that all he wants is to give us the excitement of thinking of someone who isn't so evil in the world and actually cares about us. Then he'd wait to tell us way longer than anyone else does so I was the second to last person in my grade to quit believing in santa xD. By the time he told me, I was more grown up and found it rather silly actually. So far all in my family that my dad's told were perfectly fine with it. Maybe in the case with santa, it just depends on how you handle it, but parents usually hate waiting as long as my dad did/does so that will never be fixed, if children really do get upset about it. But in my experience so far, it seems like it's not really bad to tell kids santa is real because it makes their life "magical" like they would like it to be and parents want their children to grow up in a "positive way", though still, there could be the effect when the parents spill the beans.

Hopefully kids will just think the way I did; "They were only trying to make christmas more exciting for us. That doesn't mean they'll lie about every single thing they tell us."

As for having them keep their innocence, many people have a variety of morals. I've grown with a dad who has stronger morals than almost every other parent I've met. He has the hugest problem with Spongebob Squarepants, to give you an idea, since no other parent I've met would prevent their child from watching that show.

My dad never ever explained the "bird and the bee" to us as we got older. My older brother learned of it from his friends and I did from him. My dad was either too embarrassed to discuss it or he just didn't want us to learn about it. Although idk why people call that a lie, the subject would never be brought up, that wasn't him telling us that such things didn't exist. And if we asked where the baby came from, parents wouldn't really say where they came from/out of because... Well children don't know what ovaries are and if you said "you came from your mommy's pee pee" that'd gross out your kids. And it'd be kinda embarrassing to say xD They just say you're from your mommy's tummy. That'd seem weird too but it's much easier to say/explain to your kids. I don't think saying that is a bad thing really.

The only lie I really felt uncomfortable with was when my dad said he started smoking again, though he had started a bit before he told us. He at least told us before we found out for ourselves, but he still kept it secret for a little bit. But he didn't want to be a bad influence and he didn't want to upset us. Really, I can't disagree with that.

Either way though, I still don't think everyone can agree with this because some people have loose standards while others are more tight with their beliefs. As for the children themselves, I think as long as you let them know you have their best interests at heart (and as long as that really is the reason you'd lied to them), then they can understand and not be too offended. But then there are just some parents that handle it horribly, I think.

And I don't think children can be made mature so early. I just don't think they're even made to mature so soon. You could try but children will always have a more innocent and naive mindset.

And yeah nothing is mandatory, it's just usually quite reasonable to whoever is keeping something from their kid(s).

[Rewjeo]

Am I the only one here who wants to be his/her eight year old self again? You know, when you could get fully invested in playing pirates or animals or whatever? If you bring all of the issues of the world crashing down on an eight year old, that can be destroyed, and you jump right into the mode where you're hyperfocused on what other people think of you. However, this is getting in on simply not telling kids things as opposed to lying to them. On the topic of specifically lying, I'd say it's perfectly fine. Part of the wonder of childhood is the magic. If it's not there, well, what is? Are you telling me you'd want everything to be just like highs school but from first grade? However, I do sort of wonder what a little kid would do if told about sex. You would get some doing... inappropriate things, probably, but then I bet others would just go "Ew, that's gross!" and carry on with life.

Now, as people age, truthfulness becomes more important. I certainly don't want my relationship with my parents now based on lies. However, I think there is always a place for lies or withholding information. There are some things I don't want people to know and some things I don't want to know, and surely some things I don't know that I don't want to know.

[Phoenix]

Either way though, I still don't think everyone can agree with this because some people have loose standards while others are more tight with their beliefs. As for the children themselves, I think as long as you let them know you have their best interests at heart (and as long as that really is the reason you'd lied to them), then they can understand and not be too offended. But then there are just some parents that handle it horribly, I think.

I would be one of the 'tight' ones as you might say, but mainly because I've found my own work arounds to problems like these

(Dangit, Datia, what color of blue do you use? I can't even quote you properly)

But yeah ... Innocence and Magic. If this is the most common defense parental deception has nowadays, then I guess this is just purely a cultural thing and I should stop caring. I thought there might be a useful parenting technique behind it that actually made sense, not just some stuff past down or the need to spin something.

Am I the only one here who wants to be his/her eight year old self again? You know, when you could get fully invested in playing pirates or animals or whatever? If you bring all of the issues of the world crashing down on an eight year old, that can be destroyed,

Extreme much? Who picks a particular year to tell children everything? You don't pick a particular year to teach them everything they would learn in school. They learn bigger and more complicated things as time goes along. Facts about life don't necessarily have to be delayed all until a certain point. You're talking as if the only possible way to have a good childhood is to be convinced that everything is perfect and flawless right up until some given period. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but regardless of how society handles it nowadays, isn't the original purpose of childhood the preparation for adulthood, not pre-consolation for it?

On the topic of specifically lying, I'd say it's perfectly fine. Part of the wonder of childhood is the magic. If it's not there, well, what is?

What's there? Everything else, and if you think the only two things in the world are magic and bad things, then why ever stop being children? Adulthood's not a curse, so why should we treat it like a time of harsh reality with no 'magic' of its own? (I am not talking about drugs ...)

Are you telling me you'd want everything to be just like highs school but from first grade?

Are you telling me you actually believe this is how learning works? In gigantic blocks of time that you carelessly paste over previous ones and allude to as 'the end result'? That's incredibly confounding.

Now, as people age, truthfulness becomes more important.

Because it holds far lesser value at a time where people are easily deceived

I certainly don't want my relationship with my parents now based on lies.

Good thing they finally stopped at some point then, right?

However, I think there is always a place for lies or withholding information.

Like virtually anytime when we have to otherwise say something that makes us or someone else uncomfortable.

There are some things I don't want people to know

Ever considered not telling people what you don't want them to know? But hell, in this day and age, even if you do lie to a kid, they can still just go and google it unless you're playing the parental controls game with the computer.

and some things I don't want to know

Then don't ask? I don't see a lot of parents dumping a world of incredibly harsh reality on their kids all at once and out of the blue like you seem to suggest.

and surely some things I don't know that I don't want to know.

That there's more than just magic in the world?

Edited September 7, 2011 by Phoenix

[Rewjeo]

Extreme much? Who picks a particular year to tell children everything? You don't pick a particular year to teach them everything they would learn in school. They learn bigger and more complicated things as time goes along. Facts about life don't necessarily have to be delayed all until a certain point. You're talking as if the only possible way to have a good childhood is to be convinced that everything is perfect and flawless right up until some given period. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but regardless of how society handles it nowadays, isn't the original purpose of childhood the preparation for adulthood, not pre-consolation for it?

I didn't actually mean do it when the child is eight years old. It was just an example age. And you don't have to get that ready for adulthood that early.

What's there? Everything else, and if you think the only two things in the world are magic and bad things, then why ever stop being children? Adulthood's not a curse, so why should we treat it like a time of harsh reality with no 'magic' of its own? (I am not talking about drugs ...)

The point is, there are some wonderful things about being a little kid, and destroying those only serves to, well, destroy them. As for why ever stop being children? Quite frankly, I'd like it if people could just stay little kids, but that's impossible, and even if it was possible there are some rather obvious flaws.

Are you telling me you actually believe this is how learning works? In gigantic blocks of time that you carelessly paste over previous ones and allude to as 'the end result'? That's incredibly confounding.

I wasn't talking about learning. I was talking about social life. Unless my experience is particularly atypical, it was much easier when I was younger than it is now.

Because it holds far lesser value at a time where people are easily deceived

If you don't have to grow up yet, then why not enjoy the things you can't once you've grown up?

Good thing they finally stopped at some point then, right?

Yeah. The funny thing is, they never told me Santa Claus doesn't exist or anything like that. At some point I just figured it couldn't happen.

Like virtually anytime when we have to otherwise say something that makes us or someone else uncomfortable.

Sometimes those situations are good in the end.

Ever considered not telling people what you don't want them to know?

Erm, yes. Thus the part about it being okay to lie/not tell people things.

Then don't ask?

Well, obviously. There is, however, the possibility of someone bringing up the subject on their own, or me asking a question I don't realize I don't like the answer to. In the first case, they have the right to withhold information, in the second, I think it's perfectly okay for someone to lie to me.

I don't see a lot of parents dumping a world of incredibly harsh reality on their kids all at once and out of the blue like you seem to suggest.

Neither do I, and that's a good thing. I think the idea of Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are good things, and kids don't need to know about certain things until a certain point in time. People were talking about things like telling little kids about sex when I joined in. I don't think that's necessary.

That there's more than just magic in the world?

I am aware Santa Claus doesn't exist and I can no longer play imaginary games without caring what other people think. I'm pretty sure I'm past that.