Is lying to children acceptable?

[General Spoon]

Do you believe that lying to children is an acceptable practice? Before you say "no", consider this. Santa Clause isn't real. He's just a big lie that your parents (probably, unless you were the weird kid in kindergarten whose parents told him the truth right away) told you. And it wasn't a white lie or anything either. It was active deception. Your parents telling you to place cookies, them eating the cookies, and them hiding the presents. This is far beyond a simple lie. And yet, a majority of the parents in the country I live in around Christmas time (not all of these families are Christian, mind you, so it IS strange that they celebrate a Christian holiday anyways. For example, I don't know of many non-Jewish people who celebrate Hanukkah, but that's a tangent for another day I suppose) engage in this active deception.

Things not so black and white anymore?

Edited December 25, 2010 by General Spoon

[lolDeath]

lol, niiice

Kids are stupid. Lie to them.

[Esau of Isaac]

Things not so black and white anymore?

Still the same as before. Lying to children, especially in the case of something such as Santa Claus, is wholly acceptable.

[deleted35362]

Oh, yeah, I forgot to make a topic about this.

It's tradition to make kids believe that Santa Claus is real for a while, but

is it wrong? If I have a kid, should I lie to them for the sake of this

tradition or just to make them feel like other kids do or should I tell them

the truth and leave it at "Christmas is about the feeling of giving and families

coming together". But, children like the idea of such a fantasy being a reality,

and may be too young to give a crap about togetherness. Thoughts?

[Aleph]

Cold hard truth. Grow them up fast! The sooner they're done being annoying kids the better!

That's what we really need, more annoying adults

[Defeatist Elitist]

I think lying to children and even adults in some situations is perfectly acceptable, including in this situation, as long as the child is allowed to disbelieve the deception without undue interference, if they wind up doing so. Basically, it's fine because nobody tries to force their kid believe in Santa for their entire life.

I think society also lies to children quite often in all sorts of fashions. Most of what you learn in school is a sort of lie. It's not mean spirited, or even really deceptive, but often you will not be able to understand the truth, so you are given a simpler explanation. As you progress through your education, more and more of the truth is revealed, until (hopefully) you understand the truth. This I also feel is acceptable.

And honestly, we do a lot more lying than just that, and not just to children. Leaving whether God exists or not aside, surely anyone, with any firm position would have to believe that people with other positions were lying (or at least unwittingly spreading misingormation) to their children and to each other. How could a Christian not believe a Buddhist was lying when they spread their beliefs? Beyond this, many people believe in the paranormal and many others capitalize on that belief. Most children believe in ghosts, for christ's sake, and those don't exist either. Some parents lie about things like the bogeyman, and others accomadate their child's belief in an imaginary friend. All of these behaviours are at least mild deception, and I would call many of them flat out lies. Even some concepts become lies the way some people believe them. For example, some people believe there is an objective morality. Some people believe ideas to be more real than they are. I guess what I'm trying to say is that for a lot of people, much of their life, and certainly many of their coping mechanisms are outright lies. I think in a lot of cases we need, or at least use, lies in order to get by in life. Knowing that, I can't very well say that lying to children is unacceptable, can I?

[Phoenix Wright]

I've yet to see how a child acts when they don't know of Santa, or know he doesn't exist. I'd like to tell my children the "truth," however I don't know how their life in school will pan-out. You know, kids are cruel.

EDIT: Just to be clear: I'm not sure how not telling children the "truth" will affect their creativity, and usually optimistic ways of thought. Is deception a part of growing up? Personally, it's just annoying when you find out someone lies, so I'll try to tell my children, if they are conceived, as much "truth" as I possibly can, and let them think for themselves as well...

However, I agree with Revan quite a bit too...

Hm, incomprehensible rabble.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Phoenix Wright

[Fayt Zelpher]

I think this is ultimately something that has to be evaluated in terms of ends, not means. In the particular case of Santa Claus, I have no objections. Telling them that 2 + 2 = 5, for example, is not so acceptable.

I'd give a longer speech, but ultimately, the only way to look at it is in terms of the impacts involved.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Sheena Fujibayashi

[Pride]

You know what?

Kids are annoying. If a couple of white lies are what takes to get em' off your back and give you some breathing room, than that's a no-brainer.

You know what else?

Deception is an essential part of human interaction. No reason to trip out about lying, being able to lie and mislead is one of the best skills you can have.

[lolDeath]

Guys, it's General Spoon. This isn't a serious topic.

[Snowy_One]

I believe lying to a child is perfectly acceptable for many reasons. Some things, a child just is not ready to understand yet, so lying is the only real option unless you are planning to explain why mommy and daddy are making weird noises together.

[Phoenix Wright]

Guys, it's General Spoon. This isn't a serious topic.

General Spoon is the most serious member here.

[Phoenix]

I hate like lying to people, especially children. But since I don't celebrate christmas anyway there's no reason to tell them there's some guy coming to bring them presents if they were good all year. May as well just tell them the truth and leave it at that. As for "what they aren't ready to know yet", that's really up to parents. People procrastinate all the time, I don't see why that doesn't apply here too.

My own Santa Claus experience had a bigger effect on me than I first realized. Way back then I basically became inclined to not trust my family. Not trusting regular people is one thing but family in my opinion ought to be different and add all the other crap I was fed onto the childhood tales and I'm basically the kind of person who doesn't value my own family all that much. I mean total strangers tend to be more honest than my folks(mostly cause they don't give a damn but still). That's probably a bad sign.

In fact silly story, I was actually forced to go along with the santa thing one year out in Virginia and my little cousins were all excited about the man from the north coming down to steal their cookies and leave presents, but I was somewhat threatened into not saying a word about the truth. I understood why, but that seriously irked me. Can't hide out in a room and play video games or something, but I can't be honest about anything(cousins would talk about this santa crap constantly back then, no way to avoid it save for not being present). So my cousins are all "You weren't bad this year were you? You won't get any presents if you were!" and other crap like that and I'm thinking "My presents are bought and ready to be put under the tree, I saw them in the closet like a week and a half ago. Also I was there when they bought your presents but I can't say anything because I'll be crucified." So basically I'm standing around trying to avoid my cousins until Christmas celebrations are over and I can go back to being as honest a person as I can manage. It's rather uncomfortable. For most this is a no-brainer, but for me it's kind of a big deal. It may piss off my relatives who want their kids to interact with mine should I have any but ... the holiday tale bullshit ends with my branch of the family tree. Hey, if they're not focused on magical fat guys or egg laying bunnies they can probably focus on more important things, like Science and Philosophy. My heresy knows no bounds.

@ Snowy

Father: Mommy and Daddy are just wrestling naked, son. Mommy always wins -_-

[lolDeath]

Then Christmas time should have given your parents a fix on a real functional impairment of yours.

[Phoenix]

I don't really think being disinclined to lie on a whim is an impairment since lying comes pretty naturally to most all of us. Being disinclined to be honest on the other hand ...

I just don't see the point of lying when there might be alternatives. I've personally always looked back on any lies I've told and have always been able to find very good alternatives that would have ended a situation better, and left me a more trustworthy person. I don't believe in "(Absolutely) Everything in moderation" which is why I don't agree that lying about some things is any better than lying about other things even with good intentions. Not that I'd want to make a habit of question dodging kids all the time but still. Reminds me of what my father likes to do with truth bending(he somehow makes this almost entertaining). Basically says things so people interpret them a certain way and if he gets accused of lying he just explains it away as "No that's what you thought I meant. I was telling you this ..." Classic

[lolDeath]

What I mean is you're incredibly paranoid. You let -Santa- push you off the deep end.

[Kanami]

Christmas isn't a religious event, it's a commercial one :/

That aside, Christianity is ingrained into most social structures of western countries. A very obvious example is the lack of affirmations in court until relatively recently. Honestly I don't have any problem lying to a room full of people.... But I never lie! I swear to the imaginary bearded guy in the clouds that I have never lied, and never will. (Oaths vs Affirmations)

There's nothing wrong with lying, what you lie about is up to you, but as said above it's a core action of human socialization. There's been plenty of examples but a 4 year old girl doesn't need to be told that her mothers dead, buried underground and that she'll never see her mommy again :/

It's really a matter of protecting the child from the truth for a period of time, Santa's the same concept. There's a difference between holding off the truth, and try to destroy it completely.

@Phoenix

Personally reading that makes me think you're the one with the problems, not your cousin/family :/

[Phoenix]

What I mean is you're incredibly paranoid. You let -Santa- push you off the deep end.

Please try not to read too much into what I'm saying. The fat man wasn't something that just made me up and go "Okay these guys will lie to me if it suits them. I'd better start only listening to my friends and music bands." That's just when I started paying more attention to what people told me as a whole. There was a plethora of harmful crap I went through as the years went on that just turned me off of lying altogether, and believe it or not, in hindsight, the truth would have in nearly all of those particular cases would have given much better results.

It's really a matter of protecting the child from the truth for a period of time, Santa's the same concept. There's a difference between holding off the truth, and try to destroy it completely.

Right on cue. This is one thing I'd rather not get specific about, but I know from personal experience(not Santa specifically) that these kinds of intentions actually do backfire horribly from time to time(speaking of lies aimed at me and people I've known). You might say that they're doing it wrong. Probably true, but is there really a right way to lie as a whole? I really don't think so. I don't believe there's a precise consensus on lying so I don't bother making distinctions. Lying is lying and good intentions more often than not have made things far worse than the people telling them expected they would in my experience(speaking of myself and others too here). It's just something I'd rather distance myself from as much as possible.

Now I'm not saying telling the truth in every aspect of life won't lead to potentially worse events unfolding. That wouldn't be true. Truth often leads to suicide. Regardless I choose to go that route instead, as often as I can. Life's going to be harmful, painful, and downright irritating no matter how I go about it, but honesty and the fifth amendment is the way I choose to go about it. Admittedly had no one ever lied to me and instead bombarded me with the cold hard truth my whole life, maybe I would have turned out more lax toward lying, or maybe I would have turned out as an even bigger vanguard of truth. Or maybe I would take the "Lying in moderation" route. Who knows.

@Phoenix

Personally reading that makes me think you're the one with the problems, not your cousin/family :/

I'd be lying if I said I didn't have problems with lying, but in all seriousness I think the only benefit that I actually gained from being lied to constantly growing up was that I learned to investigate things on my own a lot more. Now while I appreciate the few benefits there were, I don't appreciate the rampant distrust people build up with each other as a result.

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm, the thing here is I don't see how the Santa myth protects children from any unfortunate truths, since the truth in this instance is that their parents bought the gifts for them, which still seems like a generally positive thing to me. Gift giving is also a very easy concept to understand, so it's not as if Santa is invented to explain something either.

Personally I think the main reason Santa is invented is to try to encourage children to be good, while shifting blame and guilt away from the parents. Saying "I won't get you presents if you're bad" is viewed as mean or something.

Edited December 28, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Xander]

I think lying to children isn't right, as in most cases it will damage the child's views on everything they've been taught. When my parents told me about Santa Clause, I was scepticle since it went against everything I'd already been taught (magic and flying reindeers? Even in kindergarten I didn't believe that) and after I got my parents to confess, I stared to question whether or not my religion was real, and whether or not God was like Santa Clause. I feel like lying to the child will make them more introverted, unable to believe in what you tell them and would be damaging to the trust of the relationship.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Xander

[Lux Aeterna]

I'm gonna agree with some of the members by saying that lying reaches beyond children. Sometimes, lying is a necessary practice. It's not completely encouraged, but sometimes I'd say it's justified.

For example, children lie to adults: if a kid stole a cookie from the jar, and their sibling witnessed the event, are they gonna rat on the thief? Unless the adult said "I'll just punish you both until you confess" the sibling likely won't snitch. Well, unless it's one of those hostile sibling relationships, which brings up a different problem.

I'm not going to move on and submit since children lie to adults, adults should like back, because I don't subscribe to the moral of "an eye for an eye," not to mention adults should set an example by showing that they know better (... some don't >_>).

But it's true, deception is a part of human nature, and in some cases is justified: like protecting kids. The whole Santa prospect is partly justified because it's protecting a child's innocence. If a child loses their innocence too early, they may grow up to be cynical and bitter.

But it's also true that some lies shouldn't be told, and those lies are generally the ones without point, to hurt others, for self-preservation (gray area here), or just to be cruel. For example, telling a lie such as that about the math system yields no benefit. Lying about history on the other hand... I'd call that more of a gray area, because it may attack a child's innocence. In terms of history or such, I'd call it delivery: yes, educate them on slavery and racism, but don't educate them in such a cruel way that they lose faith in the world or something.

tl;dr: yes, it's acceptable in some cases.

[Phoenix]

The whole Santa prospect is partly justified because it's protecting a child's innocence. If a child loses their innocence too early, they may grow up to be cynical and bitter.

I don't agree with this. For one thing how are you defining innocence here, and how does a child lose it by being told his presents are being bought by his parents? What's wrong with knowing there's no magical being picking up your parent's slack?

I don't think ignorance equates to innocence personally.

But it's also true that some lies shouldn't be told, and those lies are generally the ones without point, to hurt others, for self-preservation (gray area here), or just to be cruel. For example, telling a lie such as that about the math system yields no benefit. Lying about history on the other hand... I'd call that more of a gray area, because it may attack a child's innocence.

I'm still not sure what you mean by innocence, but still this is partly why I don't like to lie at all if I can simply choose not to answer instead. I don't mind giving referrals left and right.

In terms of history or such, I'd call it delivery: yes, educate them on slavery and racism, but don't educate them in such a cruel way that they lose faith in the world or something.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.

[Lux Aeterna]

I don't agree with this. For one thing how are you defining innocence here, and how does a child lose it by being told his presents are being bought by his parents? What's wrong with knowing there's no magical being picking up your parent's slack?

I define innocence by the faith that the earth is better than it is. So basically I'm disagreeing with your statement that innocence =/= ignorance. Ignorance doesn't make up the whole of ignorance, but ignorance is bliss as they say. Sometimes children can't handle the harsh truth.

And the belief that Santa exists also is a belief that there is magic in the world, which gives them an optimistic view on things (or at least slightly more so).

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.

A more positive, but not outright lying of how things happened. Like... the Holocaust. I can't explain this too well.

[Phoenix]

I define innocence by the faith that the earth is better than it is.

I don't really see this as a healthy mentality, but that's just me.

So basically I'm disagreeing with your statement that innocence =/= ignorance. Ignorance doesn't make up the whole of ignorance, but ignorance is bliss as they say. Sometimes children can't handle the harsh truth.

What you don't know doesn't immediately effect you, but just about anything and everything you don't know know about posses a much greater danger to you.

That guy skulking around the corner.

That landmine.

That final warning from the IRS.

But I know what you're getting at and it's not physical danger. Just pointing that out. As for harsh truths and versus little tiny lies, either one can do serious harm, and I don't agree with the latter being the rule of thumb for situations where the truth is harsh.

And the belief that Santa exists also is a belief that there is magic in the world, which gives them an optimistic view on things (or at least slightly more so).

Well what's so harsh about children knowing their parents care about them enough to buy them presents during the holidays and not relying on(partly or fully) magic? This in itself seems like a lack of faith in humanity to me cause Santa clearly isn't human :P

I think kids that know their parents love them, provide for them, are honest with them, and so on and so forth could provide way more optimism than a guy only courteous enough to drop by once a year while blackmailing them with coal lump threats and bribing them with presents.

But that's just me.

A more positive, but not outright lying of how things happened. Like... the Holocaust. I can't explain this too well.

So explain history, but don't explain the gory parts or don't do so in much detail. I only agree with this to the extent of teaching history as it apparently happened, and simply omitting horrendous details like people getting swords crammed through their mouths up and out the back of their skulls ... until the child's older and less inclined to freak out. Easier to just say they got killed and leave it at that. Also that's not really lying so much as simply being to the point and relatively vague.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Well lying is basically a concept of human nature...