[FE9] PoR Draft Tourney Tier List

[Anouleth]

How so?

Apparently, a turn penalty is ascribed to deploying Janaff or Ulki in Chapter 19 so they can chit-chat with Naesala. I guess different drafts will have different rules, but there's still a grey area that needs to be addressed. Can the Hawks take credit for talking to Reyson?

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Though when Boyd would drop below Kieran, I don't see any reasons for him to stay above Astrid (and probably Makalov), seeing as they come only a couple of chapters later than Kieran (with only one chapter where Kieran actually saves turns)... it probably wouldn't be a stretch to say that he could drop below Lethe or something.

Lethe may have more movement and more build to shove with (she can't shove male Paladins however, and I don't think she can shove Wyvern Lords either), but Boyd has better offense, 1-2 range, and is an extra helping hand in Chapters 2, 5, 6, 7 and 8 where even if he isn't saving turns (although I believe he can help save a turn in Ch7, and he certainly makes it easier to 4 turn Ch2), he's still facilitating in the clear of the chapter. Also, he can be rescue-dropped in chapters where his 6-7 move isn't getting the job done.

I believe he should stay in 2nd Pick, above or possibly below Reyson.

As stated by others, his recruitment costs as many turns as you need to recruit Marcia in Ch. 9, so probably 2-3. Where would you want to put him though?

The person who picks Marcia (assuming she's picked 1st or possibly 2nd) can easily get him as their second or third pick. His stats are good and his bases are easily overcome with BEXP. I don't think he should drop at all; being right under Kieran and Astrid sounds right for him.

I see. I also thought that rule was FE 10 only. How should we do it then? Not that it would greatly influence anyone besides Volke and Sothe.

It doesn't influence anyone outside of Chapter 15. Whether we allow the Thieves to grab stuff in the desert or not won't raise or lower their position.

There's Chapter 19, but I believe that the Hawks and Reyson should be allowed to get Naesala to retreat unless it's possible for any team, no matter how poor, to defeat Homasa without losing units.

[Anouleth]

It doesn't influence anyone outside of Chapter 15. Whether we allow the Thieves to grab stuff in the desert or not won't raise or lower their position.

Why not? If I get Sothe, I can grab the Boots and Physic. If I do not have Sothe, I cannot get these items without serious luck.

There's Chapter 19, but I believe that the Hawks and Reyson should be allowed to get Naesala to retreat unless it's possible for any team, no matter how poor, to defeat Homasa without losing units.

Maybe not any team, but most teams should be capable of it. Falcoknights, some Paladins and Swordmasters should be capable of doubling and 1-rounding him, and if we talk about expending a Speedwing, we can include Ike, Titania, Kieran, and Lethe. Maybe Nephenee too.

[Radiant Dragon]

Why not? If I get Sothe, I can grab the Boots and Physic. If I do not have Sothe, I cannot get these items without serious luck.

But is if finding these items is enough to move the Thieves over Brom and Tauroneo, and maybe others?

Maybe not any team, but most teams should be capable of it. Falcoknights, some Paladins and Swordmasters should be capable of doubling and 1-rounding him, and if we talk about expending a Speedwing, we can include Ike, Titania, Kieran, and Lethe. Maybe Nephenee too.

However, how much move is needed to reach Homasa from outside the edge of Naesala's range? Expending a Speedwing shouldn't be a problem since we get two before this chapter. If I remember correctly though, Homasa acts before Naesala, so a 2RKO should be sufficient anyway.

[Anouleth]

But is if finding these items is enough to move the Thieves over Brom and Tauroneo, and maybe others?

What? Nobody is suggesting the thieves should go up. Just that it needs to be clarified whether they can take credit for finding items in that chapter.

However, how much move is needed to reach Homasa from outside the edge of Naesala's range? Expending a Speedwing shouldn't be a problem since we get two before this chapter. If I remember correctly though, Homasa acts before Naesala, so a 2RKO should be sufficient anyway.

Naesala has 10 range, so you need 8 movement to reach Homasa and attack him from 2-range (it should be enough for a 2RKO). But a lot of units can also survive Naesala's 2-range attack with a pure water and you have shoving as well. So I think it should be possible to pull off for any team.

[Radiant Dragon]

What? Nobody is suggesting the thieves should go up. Just that it needs to be clarified whether they can take credit for finding items in that chapter.

Well, most drafts (at least the current ones) allow the Thieves to find items in the desert even if they aren't drafted, so they probably wouldn't take credit for finding them. Although, drafting them means you don't have to worry about them getting attacked, so partial credit is due for some of the items, which are right in enemy range.

Naesala has 10 range, so you need 8 movement to reach Homasa and attack him from 2-range (it should be enough for a 2RKO). But a lot of units can also survive Naesala's 2-range attack with a pure water and you have shoving as well. So I think it should be possible to pull off for any team.

So then this begs the question: should the Hawks and Reyson be allowed to get Naesala to retreat in that chapter and get the Knight Ring if they aren't drafted?

[Anouleth]

Well, most drafts (at least the current ones) allow the Thieves to find items in the desert even if they aren't drafted, so they probably wouldn't take credit for finding them. Although, drafting them means you don't have to worry about them getting attacked, so partial credit is due for some of the items, which are right in enemy range.

I don't think the important ones (Physic and Boots) need the Thieves to get attacked since the Laguz will target unequipped units over an equipped Volke. But I could be remembering it wrong.

So then this begs the question: should the Hawks and Reyson be allowed to get Naesala to retreat in that chapter and get the Knight Ring if they aren't drafted?

Uh, I don't see how I'm begging the question, when I was asked directly about how possible it was to kill Homasa with Naesala still on the map.

And to be honest, I don't really care. You could treat it like any recruitment conversation, or you could treat it like opening chests. Either way is valid in my opinion.

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't think the important ones (Physic and Boots) need the Thieves to get attacked since the Laguz will target unequipped units over an equipped Volke. But I could be remembering it wrong.

That's probably true, but only mages and fliers (who should be going to kill Muarim) have the move to keep up with the Thief. Transformed Laguz too, but you can't unequip their weapons.

Uh, I don't see how I'm begging the question, when I was asked directly about how possible it was to kill Homasa with Naesala still on the map.

And to be honest, I don't really care. You could treat it like any recruitment conversation, or you could treat it like opening chests. Either way is valid in my opinion.

That was worded poorly, and I apologize. What I meant was: Now that it's been determined that any reasonable team can defeat Homasa without losing units to Naesala, should it be allowed to let the Hawks and Reyson talk to Naesala?

Either way makes sense to me.

[Kaoz]

That's probably true, but only mages and fliers (who should be going to kill Muarim) have the move to keep up with the Thief. Transformed Laguz too, but you can't unequip their weapons.

As both the generic ruleset and the current drafts allow undrafted characters to find items without taking a penalty, I'd say this goes for here too.

That was worded poorly, and I apologize. What I meant was: Now that it's been determined that any reasonable team can defeat Homasa without losing units to Naesala, should it be allowed to let the Hawks and Reyson talk to Naesala?

Either way makes sense to me.

Well, in theory every unit is able to open chests (chest keys), whereas recruitments are character specific, I'd consider the Hawks and Reyson talking to Naesala equal to that, so no penalty.

Apart from that, what about Boyd? Nobody seems to be opposed to him going below the Paladins, but should he stay above Reyson and Tanith too?

[Radiant Dragon]

Apart from that, what about Boyd? Nobody seems to be opposed to him going below the Paladins, but should he stay above Reyson and Tanith too?

In my opinion he should stay in 2nd pick, above Reyson.

[Kaoz]

Put Boyd below Makalov for now, also added the issue with Naesala to the OP.

[Florete]

I don't think the important ones (Physic and Boots) need the Thieves to get attacked since the Laguz will target unequipped units over an equipped Volke. But I could be remembering it wrong.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I don't remember if I tested it or not, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them go after a base level Volke who can barely damage them but is 2HKOd over a 20/5 Jill who doesn't get hurt (or takes minimal damage).

I'm pretty sure Physic does require someone getting attacked (and Boots definitely does), but you can always kill that one. You can get both with just one Thief within 4 turns without having them attacked. It would be 3 if the closest spot from the Physic was one space closer to the Boots area, though, so if you have someone who can Shove him from there on turn 2 you might be able to pull it off.

[Anouleth]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I don't remember if I tested it or not, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them go after a base level Volke who can barely damage them but is 2HKOd over a 20/5 Jill who doesn't get hurt (or takes minimal damage).

Well, I remember doing it with base Jill, but I hardly think that 20/5 Jill is going to be the weakest defensively character on any team.

I'm pretty sure Physic does require someone getting attacked (and Boots definitely does), but you can always kill that one. You can get both with just one Thief within 4 turns without having them attacked. It would be 3 if the closest spot from the Physic was one space closer to the Boots area, though, so if you have someone who can Shove him from there on turn 2 you might be able to pull it off.

That should be a strong incentive to take the thieves, then, for faster item collection in Chapter 15.

[Florete]

Well, I remember doing it with base Jill, but I hardly think that 20/5 Jill is going to be the weakest defensively character on any team.

Yeah, that's the point. That's how equipped Volke potentially gets attacked over unequipped Jill.

[riariadne]

I don't recall the AI really being that smart about it, though. At least in the GBA games, they'll almost always attack an unarmed character unless they could kill someone else in a single attack.

[Anouleth]

Yeah, that's the point. That's how equipped Volke potentially gets attacked over unequipped Jill.

But I was pointing out there will probably be other units on your team that can distract the enemies. It doesn't have to be Jill specifically. It could be Soren or Boyd or Ilyana or Mordecai. And Jill is probably not a very good person to do it anyway since she's very durable.

[Narga_Rocks]

But I was pointing out there will probably be other units on your team that can distract the enemies. It doesn't have to be Jill specifically. It could be Soren or Boyd or Ilyana or Mordecai. And Jill is probably not a very good person to do it anyway since she's very durable.

But she flies. Soren and Ilyana have 6 move, Mordy needs time to transform and can counter then (or he's not transformed and only has 3 move). Boyd has 2. Good luck getting them close enough to distract stuff from sothe/volke as they run off to get the boots.

I'm pretty sure RF used Jill in that example because of that reason. The only other good candidate is Marcia, but if you've drafted Marcia (so that you can use her) she'll almost certainly be promoted, too.

Jill/Marcia could perhaps drop someone nearby to distract, but that means she had to be occupied earlier with the whole carrying thing.

[NTNP]

I could see Muarim dropping somewhere below Mia and Nephenee. Since we have a great deal of BEXP (especially for anyone without Kieran, Marcia, Mist or Rolf who show up about the same time) should have plenty of BEXP to throw around to get either of these ladies up to par. They come in more than a few chapters before Muarim even shows up, and by endgame both of these characters will be much stronger than a laguz limited to one range and less than amazing stats compared to the two best vantage + wrath users in PoR.

[Anouleth]

But she flies. Soren and Ilyana have 6 move, Mordy needs time to transform and can counter then (or he's not transformed and only has 3 move). Boyd has 2. Good luck getting them close enough to distract stuff from sothe/volke as they run off to get the boots.

I'm pretty sure RF used Jill in that example because of that reason. The only other good candidate is Marcia, but if you've drafted Marcia (so that you can use her) she'll almost certainly be promoted, too.

Jill/Marcia could perhaps drop someone nearby to distract, but that means she had to be occupied earlier with the whole carrying thing.

Marcia and Jill are usually not going to be in play anyway. Mordecai has literally nothing better to do in the 5 turns before he transforms. So sure, Soren and Ilyana have less movement, but they may be very well all you have, and if they are, they have 6 move to Sothe/Volke's 7 anyway, so they won't be left that far behind.

I could see Muarim dropping somewhere below Mia and Nephenee. Since we have a great deal of BEXP (especially for anyone without Kieran, Marcia, Mist or Rolf who show up about the same time) should have plenty of BEXP to throw around to get either of these ladies up to par. They come in more than a few chapters before Muarim even shows up, and by endgame both of these characters will be much stronger than a laguz limited to one range and less than amazing stats compared to the two best vantage + wrath users in PoR.

Wrath is probably better off on Ike, but giving Vantage to Nephenee is a great idea. The main problem is Muarim's superior movement.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Kaoz]

Okay so I tested the desert stuff with Jill:

1) The Raven that transforms turn 1 near the Boots targets a 20/4 Jill over Volke as long as Jill is unequipped.

2) It's possible to obtain the Boots on turn 2, even when Volke was outside of said Raven's range on turn 1, as long as you have a unit (besides Ike) that can shove Volke.

3) The chapter can be 2 turned as long as your flyer ORKOs Muarim, when the second option is used to get the Boots, max BEXP can also be archieved.

I could see Muarim dropping somewhere below Mia and Nephenee. Since we have a great deal of BEXP (especially for anyone without Kieran, Marcia, Mist or Rolf who show up about the same time) should have plenty of BEXP to throw around to get either of these ladies up to par. They come in more than a few chapters before Muarim even shows up, and by endgame both of these characters will be much stronger than a laguz limited to one range and less than amazing stats compared to the two best vantage + wrath users in PoR.

It's as Anouleth said, Muarim has 2 more move and his combat isn't bad by any means.

That being said, I guess Nephenee could go above Mia? 4 chapters less, but a superior weapon and Vantage has a smaller cost than Wrath (probably) could be enough to cancel that out.

[Florete]

That being said, I guess Nephenee could go above Mia? 4 chapters less, but a superior weapon and Vantage has a smaller cost than Wrath (probably) could be enough to cancel that out.

In a draft tourney, Wrath/Vantage combo may never come into play anyway because your units will be too overleveled. And then, unless you drafted Makalov, Vantage will probably cost a turn to get while chapter 18 (with Wrath) probably isn't possible to finish in fewer than 8 turns anyway, so I'd say Vantage has a higher cost.

Neph's base E Lances also kind of sucks, but she still has Javelins, and Knight Ward puts her Spd at least on par with Mia on top of being better or tied in everything else, so I could probably see her higher. It's not as though Mia does a whole lot to save turns in her 4 extra maps.

[Radiant Dragon]

And then, unless you drafted Makalov, Vantage will probably cost a turn to get while chapter 18 (with Wrath) probably isn't possible to finish in fewer than 8 turns anyway, so I'd say Vantage has a higher cost.

Resolve + Wrath on Ike is probably the fastest method to defeat Ashnard, though.

[Xander]

I think Rolf should drop to 7th pick, below Ulki. The fact is that using him takes bonus exp away from other characters who can actually put it to use and have an enemy phase. Then even with the bonus exp you give him, he's still garbage. By trying to use him in my draft run he actually cost me more turns than he saved, by taking bonus exp away from Marcia, I couldn't give her the 1 strength point she needed to 3 turn 17-1. Even though Ulki has to deal with his gauge, you can give him the demi band if he's your only laguz drafted, and a speedwing helps deal with his speed issues. Ulki also has the con to shove and rescue. Rolf didn't do anything to help me save any turns, in fact trying to use him cost me more turns than it saved.

[Fayt Zelpher]

Lucia should rise a bit. Why? 12 magic and a pretty easy spirit dust. With A swords, she's a very good candidate for the SS and RS, and will use it better than most other characters.

Yes, her availability is horrible. I understand. However, a very powerful 1-2 range is pretty good when we need to rout (C24), helps out a lot against laguz in the last chapters, and honestly, are you going to need to use the dust or Mage band at that point? I don't see the resource inefficiency here apart from maybe 200 BEXP, which is quite frankly, chump change.

Also, Ulki is not a net negative to the team. If nothing else, there are 4 laguz stone uses and the demi band. Oh, and he can fly. Rescuing Ike in C21? More than Rofl will be accomplishing, I bet. Savior use in 28 to get over the forest? Another couple of turns right there. Obviously, it's worse than Jill or Marcia. Clearly. But I'm failing to see how Ulki is being a net-negative to the team.

[Zkirsche]

I've just started using Janaff, and it looks quite promising indeed, especially with an energy drop. (then again, I didn't give him an bexp, so w/e).

rout (C24),

That's an arrive. I assume you mean chapter 25.

In any case, I have issues with putting her above Janaff, a flying unit with *probably* better 1 range offence, better mov and around double the availability.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Kevin