The new FE10 draft tier list

[nflchamp]

1) I agree with getting rid of the common free units. They're on the list pointlessly.

2) Eddie needs to go at least above Jill, though I think he could realistically go right under Haar. Let's just start with Jill. He's going to have at least a dozen turns on her just from lack of penalties from 1-P through 1-2 + 1-8. He's also around for 1-4 to potentially help and can keep the heat off Volug in drafts where you take penalties if Volug fights in 1-5. Not to mention he can be flat out better than Jill statwise by the time Jill even shows up. Sure, Jill has flight, but where does that really help? She possibly saves a turn in 1-7, a turn or two in 3-6 (if she's strong enough), a turn in 3-12, a turn in 3-13 (maybe). I doubt she can really beat him in part 4.

3) I'm going to have to agree with PB on Mist. Mist's healing is damn worthless in a draft. I mean, healing is generally pretty worthless in FE10 NM in the first place. Now overlevel all of my units.

[Zkirsche]

Aside from 1-P and 1-1, Eddie saves turns in:

-Making Beastfoe more accessible in 1-4, though I don't know the details of 1-4 Sothe/Micaiah 7 turn clear. 6 turns is also possibly if you have Ilyana or something.

-1-6-2, in being able to shove Sothe; Jill drop is problematic with the initial enemies.

-1-8 is self-explanatory and worth upwards of 3 turns

Except Nolan could do all that and he's a better combat unit. Volug can shove sothe in 1-6-2/do stuff in 1-8. Heck, he does stuff better in 1-8. That's not 15 turns over the others.

Compared to buffed DBers, he actually doesn't help that much, again due to lack of 2-range. 1-8 he does help, but elsewhere, not that much. In part 3, he's actually not one of the better DB picks.

But there isn't any 2-rangers in part 3 and his combat is unrivalled except for Nolan w/beastfoe, and even then has has better durability.

I really think you're overrating 2 range here, especially since Edward's 2 range sucks anyway because of lolwind edges.

Jill has a harder time killing Ike due to speed cap. Edward, meanwhile, has reliable proc chances.

Jill gets there faster and can be paragon'ed and then promoted for maximum effectiveness.

While Naesala has around +15 hp, +2 def, and +20 avoid, HM stats say enemies have hit rates averaging around 150 to Naesala's 100+ avoid. He can't dodge enough even with a NM stat drop to the point where he can make up for free healing.

It's not like Flare will activate every time, and that stat difference is like, 20/20 Ilyana, which she won't be in 4-P. Speaking of 4-P, their hit rates vary around the 140 hit mark, so that's ~35 displayed, or ~24 true. This is against enemies with atk around the 35 mark, which 7 rounds KO's him. This means he doesn't even face a 1% chance of death until after quite a lot of round of combat. 20/20/7 Ilyana has 43 HP/69 avo/22 Def. This means she's 4HKO'ed at ~70 displayed (82.3% true). ~29% chance of flare. So, without flare activating, she has a 45% chance of dying. That's heavily reliant on procs if you ask me, as without it, she dies.

1-P: Edward(3) Leo(2)

1-1: Edward/Nolan (3) Leo(2)

1-2: Edward/Nolan/Laura (3 ) Leo(2)

that's 9 turns

Except you can get through 1-1 with just the Nolan penalty.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Cesc Fabregas

[Paperblade]

Except you can get through 1-1 with just the Nolan penalty.

If you use Edward you don't have to take any penalty.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Aside from 1-P and 1-1, Eddie saves turns in:

-Making Beastfoe more accessible in 1-4, though I don't know the details of 1-4 Sothe/Micaiah 7 turn clear. 6 turns is also possibly if you have Ilyana or something.

-1-6-2, in being able to shove Sothe; Jill drop is problematic with the initial enemies.

-1-8 is self-explanatory and worth upwards of 3 turns

I can give those if anyone actually cares...

[Zkirsche]

If you use Edward you don't have to take any penalty.

What I meant by that is Nolan is more useful as he can do the same thing in 1-1 as Edward if you choose him.

I can give those if anyone actually cares...

Might as well, if it slows this edward hype.

[Naglfar]

I can give those if anyone actually cares...

People would care very much.

Thanks for reviving this, Soul. I didn't quite have the experience or attention span to run the old one. D:

Volug needs to drop to somewhere in Upper Mid. Gauge and no 2 range ever means he doesn't belong in High. Above Oscar?

Gatrie is doritos for Celerity if he's drafted, 3-3 excluded. Just fill him up on hand axes and he does entire maps on his own. Above Ike. Yes, above Ike. I'm more than willing to explain why.

Nealuchi needs to go up. A lot. He's a mini Naesala with P2 presence, he just needs BEXP investment and all Naesala will have on him is Formshift and a slightly better Strike level. If Neal didn't hit S in P2.

Bastian doesn't belong above Mist and Rhys. Above Volke would be good.

That's all that jumps out at me right now.

Might as well, if it slows this edward hype.

Let's remember that Edward's durability is nothing special until he can get a substantial Avoid support.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Naglfar

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Yosh. I go figure out how I did it. I can't remember the exat positions and shit but gimme an hour or something and I will

Edit: done :P

Edited January 29, 2011 by Sho.M

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Lack of 2-range at the DB for Part 1 & 3 isn't a problem at at. And his gauge isn't so bad at all. It raises and decreases decently.

Again, Celerity fixes this pretty easily. He's also very durable and picks up his offense quickly.

Since Celerity can be put on any GM, he's still losing movement, and gaps and thickets cost more to traverse. By the time he's ORKO'ing everything, someone like Boyd is doing the same.

Mia can still grab Adept and Max Mt/Crit. forges for amazing offense that can even 1RKO Generals. How is that not awesome? Her lack of *good* 2-range isn't a problem for Part 3. By Part 4, she has access to Storm swords that 3HKO enemies not-Generals. She can 2HKO with Tempest blades.

It's not not awesome. It's just that due to level inflation, speed is less relevant and a lot of people can do this as well (Heather) which means people who are naturally ORKO'ing are more reliable and therefore better.

Nephenee is basically Mia Lite. She can grab Adept and nice lance forges for great offense that Oscar doesn't compare to until he raises his Atk and reaches enough AS to double reliably in the first place. Not to mention she saves you from penalties at Part 2.

Oscar can do the same exact thing, except on a horse. 24 AS comes easily and any more is superfluous, he also has better strength, and he saves penalties in 3-1. I smell bias.

Well, just look at the people sorrounding them. Also, despite Danved's lack of a mount, he has better stats and can wield lances for better offense and 2-range, easily making him a better Part 4 candidate. He's also helping more at 3-9 than Makalov is even helping at 2-3 (Considering 2-3 we take the pacifist clear, for max BEXP).

The only significant stat Danved wins is speed, and Makalov has a 75% growth which makes that less relevant. By Part 4, Makalov has hand axe forges, which are better than lances. In 3-9, though I didn't have as much BEXP to burn on Danved as I probably should've, I remember not climbing the ledges was easier.

For one thing, her offense pretty much blows. Even though she's hitting Res, her Atk is rather crappy and 3-4HKO's enemies. She needs to be fed a few kills under the influence of Paragon for her to be decent by Part 4. Marcia can fly, and has better 2-range and durability. I can't even raise her above Brom because her availability is something that she desires.

I don't know where you're getting you're numbers, but considering the amount of BEXP we have at our disposal I'd say you should try putting this into practice. In part 4, she is, like Ilyana, one of the best units for silver route, as compared to Marcia, though Marcia can fly, the maps are also very open and Marcia has the problem of getting 1-HKO'd by crossbows, her offense is better, and Flare healing is ridiculous.

As proven by dondon151, Renning is actually a great Endgame filler. He can use Hammer and Vague Katti to clear off Generals quickly for us at 4-E-1. It helps that he has high Mov with Canto, which is great when repositioning for Heron refreshment. Sure, it's only for Endgame. But he's certainly decent there.

I know he's decent in endgame. The reason he should be lower is because he only exists for endgame, where a unit is least likely to shave turns.

Muarim can actually kill enemies and survive more than two rounds of enemy combat at Part 4, even without Resolve. Give him Resolve, and he'll contribute with actual onerounding combat. Tormod is great for his Part 1, but by Part 4, all he can do is burn down doors with Meteor. Vika is easily the worst due to mediocre combat. I can't find a use for her at Part 4 at all. But her Part 1 is just 1RKO'ing weaksauce enemies like Mages and ferry Micaiah up to the throne at 1-E.

1. You're still forgetting that we're talking about 2 effective chapters at most.

2. BEXP is ridiculous for part 4.

She can at least heal. And she has avilability to that over the other late-joiners and their only Endgame-utility.

Trying to heal means putting her in danger of attack. She's pretty much useless for her existence.

He's like Vika with one more chapter of availability and slightly better stats...

So you put him under her why?

He can't, unless he's spoonfed. His durability is hideous for him to be left alone there.

I've tried it, and it works.

Yes, I didn't think of this list as "Who is most likely to be picked first to last", just "Who's better than who". Doesn't mean you still can't use this to conclude who is most likely to be chosen.

Yeah, and I'd like to keep it this way, since your latter picks are going to depend on your earlier picks.

Except Nolan could do all that and he's a better combat unit. Volug can shove sothe in 1-6-2/do stuff in 1-8. Heck, he does stuff better in 1-8. That's not 15 turns over the others.

I was talking about vs Jill here. Vs Nolan is an issue of whether BEXP, Robe, and Dracoshield make his defense adequate.

But there isn't any 2-rangers in part 3 and his combat is unrivalled except for Nolan w/beastfoe, and even then has has better durability.

3-12, and between grassing and healing (Micaiah will not be in range for the latter parts of the part 3 maps), Volug's class betrays his combat.

I really think you're overrating 2 range here, especially since Edward's 2 range sucks anyway because of lolwind edges.

No, try out a team with Volug as the DB pick.

Jill gets there faster and can be paragon'ed and then promoted for maximum effectiveness.

IIRC, people who picked Eddie or Zihark were able to finish 3-13 in 3 turns. Jill can get there in 2, but she can't reliably kill Ike fast enough to matter.

It's not like Flare will activate every time, and that stat difference is like, 20/20 Ilyana, which she won't be in 4-P. Speaking of 4-P, their hit rates vary around the 140 hit mark, so that's ~35 displayed, or ~24 true. This is against enemies with atk around the 35 mark, which 7 rounds KO's him. This means he doesn't even face a 1% chance of death until after quite a lot of round of combat. 20/20/7 Ilyana has 43 HP/69 avo/22 Def. This means she's 4HKO'ed at ~70 displayed (82.3% true). ~29% chance of flare. So, without flare activating, she has a 45% chance of dying. That's heavily reliant on procs if you ask me, as without it, she dies.

You forget Resolve. You're stats are also off, and anyway do not take into consideration BEXP help, stat boosters, and .99 blossoms. Actually I got sidetracked here with durability when it is offense that Ilyana is crushing Naesala in, since there's 14 enemies with 2-range by turn 5 in 4-P and 29 2-rangers in 4-3.

[Psych]

No, try out a team with Volug as the DB pick.

I did. I had Ilyana too. Though I never finished. >_>

[Anouleth]

I don't know where you're getting you're numbers, but considering the amount of BEXP we have at our disposal I'd say you should try putting this into practice. In part 4, she is, like Ilyana, one of the best units for silver route, as compared to Marcia, though Marcia can fly, the maps are also very open and Marcia has the problem of getting 1-HKO'd by crossbows, her offense is better, and Flare healing is ridiculous.

Getting OHKOed by Crossbows is almost a non-issue. There is literally 1 crossbow user in 4-1. There are like three in 4-3, but they all also spawn right next to each other. As a result, it is easy for Marcia to avoid Crossbows.

In addition, Marcia not only has better movement, she has superior offense (yes, I said it). Recall that Marcia does not have to perpetually sit in Resolve territory to double enemies, or that she can take Adept and 3HKO most enemies, or that she can even take an Energy Drop to improve her strength. Or some of the masses of BEXP.

3-12, and between grassing and healing (Micaiah will not be in range for the latter parts of the part 3 maps), Volug's class betrays his combat.

There are very few ranged enemies on the right hand side of 3-12.

[Zkirsche]

You forget Resolve.

I could give resolve to Naesala. Hello 146 avo. Now he can't get hit by most things and faces <10 displaced on almost everything.

Oh yeah, and he's still a god damn royal who flies and has 9 mov.

You're stats are also off

They're off in the sense that I rounded up some stats for you. See FEP's real averages, which will tell you the real values.

No, try out a team with Volug as the DB pick.

I have, not as a draft, but as a self-challenge. Forced units only.

I can also tell you that Eddies two range is also horrible from previous experience.

[Paperblade]

Getting OHKOed by Crossbows is almost a non-issue. There is literally 1 crossbow user in 4-1. There are like three in 4-3, but they all also spawn right next to each other. As a result, it is easy for Marcia to avoid Crossbows.

Marcia is also deathly afraid of regular bows as her HP/Def aren't as ridiculous as someone like Naesala nor is her Avd likely to be good enough to reduce the hit to low levels.

In addition, Marcia not only has better movement, she has superior offense (yes, I said it). Recall that Marcia does not have to perpetually sit in Resolve territory to double enemies, or that she can take Adept and 3HKO most enemies, or that she can even take an Energy Drop to improve her strength. Or some of the masses of BEXP.

Spirit Dusts are much less contested since there are fewer magic users and you are unlikely to have drafted multiples. ORKOing vs. ORKOing is no difference (and yes, Calill and Ilyana ORKO).

BEXP isn't a big deal. My draft team was all max level except for the Laguz, who were in the mid-high 30s.

There are very few ranged enemies on the right hand side of 3-12.

You will encounter several if you want to finish the chapter quickly.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Getting OHKOed by Crossbows is almost a non-issue. There is literally 1 crossbow user in 4-1. There are like three in 4-3, but they all also spawn right next to each other. As a result, it is easy for Marcia to avoid Crossbows.

That crossbow user in 4-1 is inconveniently situated in a position which spells death for Marcia if she attempts to move in the central position to draw the boss area units. Additionally, you'll pretty much have to bring over another unit to deal with him, thus slowing you further. Lastly, she also has to worry about regular bows, which dominate the east side and make that option unavailable. In 4-3, you have the southern and southwest crossbows in addition to a bowgun warrior somewhere and likely 10, maybe 11 snipers scattered across the map. In addition, the goal is not to avoid all these enemies seeing as this is a rout, which means someone else has to deal with them. Calill/Ilyana do not have this problem.

In addition, Marcia not only has better movement, she has superior offense (yes, I said it). Recall that Marcia does not have to perpetually sit in Resolve territory to double enemies, or that she can take Adept and 3HKO most enemies, or that she can even take an Energy Drop to improve her strength. Or some of the masses of BEXP.

1. Resolve is not necessary for doubling.

2. Chance to ORKO with Adept is always inferior to definite ORKO (Marcia is missing dragonmasters, generals, probably most halbs and warriors, and has virtually no shot again at crossbow warriors at max 44 1-2 range mt). The archsages miss the SMs when not in resolve in comparison.

3. Meteor and Blizzard are also options which can be very helpful in eliminating stragglers.

There are very few ranged enemies on the right hand side of 3-12.

Every one of them is a problem; on player phase, you might find yourself in a dilemma where you cannot kill the 2-rangers because you have grass up. Beyond that, there aren't enough enemies in the right alone to clear the map, which means you get more ranged attacks to the left.

I could give resolve to Naesala. Hello 146 avo. Now he can't get hit by most things and faces <10 displaced on almost everything.

I suppose that's true. Maybe "better" was not the best term, and "sufficient" would be better for defense.

Oh yeah, and he's still a god damn royal who flies and has 9 mov.

Cool?

Also, Tibarn/Naesala should probably be below Elincia as well. I'm not seeing them making up the 5 turns from 2-E Elincia saves.

They're off in the sense that I rounded up some stats for you. See FEP's real averages, which will tell you the real values.

It is still better to use expected values instead of real means. Because the upper values are bounded by the stat cap, normal distribution does not apply and so we are not looking at an even distribution around the true mean.

I have, not as a draft, but as a self-challenge. Forced units only.

And how fast did you go?

I can also tell you that Eddies two range is also horrible from previous experience.

What were Edward's stats at the time of said horribleness?

[Paperblade]

On an unrelated note, I think Laura needs to plummet for the same reason Mist did.

I would rather have Fiona than Laura. Fiona has carrying dudes utility and is better in Part 3/4 with BEXP.

[Naglfar]

On an unrelated note, I think Laura needs to plummet for the same reason Mist did.

I would rather have Fiona than Laura. Fiona has carrying dudes utility and is better in Part 3/4 with BEXP.

I'll refrain from commenting on this until I at least know how Laura turns out.

Meanwhile I'll comment on Gatrie > Ike. Simple stuff here: same availability, so I can do a chapter-by-chapter comparison.

3-P: Nonfactor.

3-1: Gatrie probably starts doubling here. When he does, he starts ORKOing with Boyd's/Oscar's stuff (Titania penalty will probably be taken). Ike doesn't have 2 range so his offence falls behind as soon as Gatrie can double.

3-2: Ike gets Wind Edges. Gatrie's doing self-improvement while someone else goes for the boss with Celerity. Ike wins because he's better at that than Gatrie.

3-3: Ike wins again because he has more MOV to burn shit.

Rest of P3: Gatrie gets Celerity and effortlessly carves through most of the map on his own.

...Yeah. Ike eventually gets Ragnell, but by then Gatrie is well into third tier and is ORKOing everything with hand axes anyway. And neither really get to participate in 3-11 very much. Until then, Ike has wind edges for 2 range, meaning he has to rely on Adept to ORKO.

On top of that, Ike's durability isn't quite on the level of Gatrie's without a support. Gatrie isn't an option because he's off on his own so enemies all kill themselves on him without being distracted by swords-locked pansies who can't ORKO. Oscar isn't an option either, unless you're lucky enough to draft two of the good GMs, and I don't think we can assume our hypothetical player's opponents are all stupid. Ike's best option in this case would be Soren, which is what, +30 avo at A? Works, but it isn't making Ike solo maps like Gatrie. I don't see all the 2 range enemies happily attacking Soren instead. And then there's the high likelihood that Soren won't be drafted in the first place.

In P4, Ike hits third tier and starts winning. His offence quickly overtakes Gatrie's, and Aether covers the durability issues he doesn't have anymore. Meanwhile, Gatrie's 31 speed cap is causing problems, though he's still a reliable source of damage to auras. Of course, this doesn't matter for very long and that with the small P3 wins Ike gets doesn't add up to something greater than the many turns saved by Gatrie all the way up to endgame. See, even though Ike takes the lead over Gatrie in P4, it's not half as big a lead as Gatrie's P3. Gatrie has short axes and tomahawks now, and he's still extremely durable. He might not keep Celerity, but that's fine because P4 is full of rout maps and there's always somewhere for him to go.

He's like a less mobile Haar who doensn't have to watch out for thunder magic. He also plays very similarly to Titania and Boyd, what with the hand axes, but I don't know what their mobility lead/durability deficit does for them. That may be a topic I'll come back to sometime in the future when I have experience with them.

Why is Titania in Top, anyway? She strikes me as too inferior to Haar to warrant being in the same tier as him. Somebody enlighten me.

[Junkhead]

Since Celerity can be put on any GM, he's still losing movement, and gaps and thickets cost more to traverse. By the time he's ORKO'ing everything, someone like Boyd is doing the same.

The other GMs don't really need it. He does. That's just like taking away the opportunity of someone like Haar to use the Speedwings just because Mia can use it to cap her Speed for better BEXP slowplay potential.

It's not not awesome. It's just that due to level inflation, speed is less relevant and a lot of people can do this as well (Heather) which means people who are naturally ORKO'ing are more reliable and therefore better.

Heather can achieve that with Adept. Same with Nephenee and Mia. But that's only because they have the Spd to naturally double every enemy. The third attack usually allows them to kill every enemy barring Generals (Which Nephenee and Mia can kill with a critical in one of those rounds). Anyway, I do see that Oscar can 2-3HKO most enemies if he's given Adept. Like you said, leveling-speed isn't even a problem, and he could have gotten those levels from CEXP & BEXP to double and then 1RKO. But is that really enough to make him top the turns Nephenee saves you? And then at Part 4 and Endgame, I would say Nephenee defeneatly wins there.

The only significant stat Danved wins is speed, and Makalov has a 75% growth which makes that less relevant. By Part 4, Makalov has hand axe forges, which are better than lances. In 3-9, though I didn't have as much BEXP to burn on Danved as I probably should've, I remember not climbing the ledges was easier.

What I was asking you was how could he go above Lucia and the Herons. But your point seems strong enough to get him just below Danved, if only because he takes a little more work to have his growths catch up so his offense can become decent.

I don't know where you're getting you're numbers, but considering the amount of BEXP we have at our disposal I'd say you should try putting this into practice. In part 4, she is, like Ilyana, one of the best units for silver route, as compared to Marcia, though Marcia can fly, the maps are also very open and Marcia has the problem of getting 1-HKO'd by crossbows, her offense is better, and Flare healing is ridiculous.

I probably should. The only time I've ever used Callil was on my first run. It was a NM run, and I perfectly remember she 3HKO'd enemies due to their decent Res. But yeah, you're right. Sages are a huge boon for the Silver route. Up to Middle tier.

I know he's decent in endgame. The reason he should be lower is because he only exists for endgame, where a unit is least likely to shave turns.

Yeah, fine.

1. You're still forgetting that we're talking about 2 effective chapters at most.

I moved Muarim and Tormod right next to each other. Though Vika still remains lower since her performance is noticeably worse than their's. The fact that she's not particularly decent by Part 1 isn't enough to get her even close to them.

2. BEXP is ridiculous for part 4.

Nobody's really bothering giving BEXP to any of them unless they're undermanned. Tormod is beyond salvation. Vika needs tons of BEXP to make use of her great growths and THEN needs to at least S-rank her strike. Muarim is much better option since he needs just a few levels and Resolve. It helps that he's not far from capping some of his stats.

Trying to heal means putting her in danger of attack. She's pretty much useless for her existence.

Alright. Lowering her and Rhys.

So you put him under her why?

It was one of the few mistakes I made by not triple-checking the list in the first place. It's fixed now, though

I've tried it, and it works.

Spoonfeeding kills or just letting him stand on a thicket letting your luck guide you? Hindering another unit for that is just awful when that other unit can be assisting someone else with the routing for a faster clear.

On an unrelated note, I think Laura needs to plummet for the same reason Mist did.

I would rather have Fiona than Laura. Fiona has carrying dudes utility and is better in Part 3/4 with BEXP.

Fiona can just do that. She needs much more resources than Laura just to be of some use passed Part 3. Because, honestly, Rescue-Dropping is the only thing she's good for, for 2 or 3 chapters at Part 3. While most of Laura's Part 1 consists on self-improvement, she can easily become a combat unit by 1-7 through 1-E to be actually more useful than Fiona for Part 3 & 4. The only time Fiona will ever be beating her is by Endgame due to a better Spd cap, if she even gets there.

Meanwhile I'll comment on Gatrie > Ike. Simple stuff here: same availability, so I can do a chapter-by-chapter comparison.

3-P: Nonfactor.

3-1: Gatrie probably starts doubling here. When he does, he starts ORKOing with Boyd's/Oscar's stuff (Titania penalty will probably be taken). Ike doesn't have 2 range so his offence falls behind as soon as Gatrie can double.

3-2: Ike gets Wind Edges. Gatrie's doing self-improvement while someone else goes for the boss with Celerity. Ike wins because he's better at that than Gatrie.

3-3: Ike wins again because he has more MOV to burn shit.

Rest of P3: Gatrie gets Celerity and effortlessly carves through most of the map on his own.

...Yeah. Ike eventually gets Ragnell, but by then Gatrie is well into third tier and is ORKOing everything with hand axes anyway. And neither really get to participate in 3-11 very much. Until then, Ike has wind edges for 2 range, meaning he has to rely on Adept to ORKO.

The only thing Gatrie is dounling by 3-1 are Mages and some Generals. His offense doesn't beat Ike, considering Ike 1RKO's here and at the previous chapter. 3-2, I'll concede Gatrie starts getting better considering he can BEXP to cap his HP/Str/Spd. And Ike actually needs Celerity here so he can reach the boss fast. And yes, Gatrie is a fantastic combat unit after Crowning and Celerity. But he isn't better than Ike because the only thing he's winning on is at better 2-range for all of Part 3. Then there's the fact Ike's free, and still 1RKO'd at 1-range combat. And needing to rely on Adept to 1RKO with Wind edges isn't a bad thing either. Just mean Ike can actually catch up with only that. Yet, 2-range isn't heavily needed at Part 3 like it is at Part 4, where Ike finally has Ragnell.

On top of that, Ike's durability isn't quite on the level of Gatrie's without a support. Gatrie isn't an option because he's off on his own so enemies all kill themselves on him without being distracted by swords-locked pansies who can't ORKO.

Being worse than an invincible character is bad?

In P4, Ike hits third tier and starts winning. His offence quickly overtakes Gatrie's, and Aether covers the durability issues he doesn't have anymore. Meanwhile, Gatrie's 31 speed cap is causing problems, though he's still a reliable source of damage to auras. Of course, this doesn't matter for very long and that with the small P3 wins Ike gets doesn't add up to something greater than the many turns saved by Gatrie all the way up to endgame. See, even though Ike takes the lead over Gatrie in P4, it's not half as big a lead as Gatrie's P3. Gatrie has short axes and tomahawks now, and he's still extremely durable. He might not keep Celerity, but that's fine because P4 is full of rout maps and there's always somewhere for him to go.

I think I'll make an analogy and see how they perform against each other. You've already trivialized a few chapters, so I'll just continue:

3-4: Ike gets dibs on Celerity. Why? Well, I want to 8-turn this. =P Ike might as well stomp the enemies standing in his way. (Winner: Ike)

3-5: Celerity!Gatrie goes for Lombroso (Winner: Gatrie)

3-7: Wut.

3-8: I'll clearly concede you that Gatrie owns this map.

3-10: Another rout map. I consider this one somewhat of a tie considering they take different sides in which they both stomp enemies. It's basically a kill vs. an overkill.

3-11: Celerty!Ike strikes once again.

3-E: Gatrie. Easily.

And for Part 4, we know Gatrie wins. So, overall, Ike wins.

Why is Titania in Top, anyway? She strikes me as too inferior to Haar to warrant being in the same tier as him. Somebody enlighten me.

Titania has Gatrie and Haar-like offense. Except it's actually better. Like Haar, she has a mount. Yet, she doesn't fly. At 3-P & 3-1, we know Ike is winning. But after that, she's just easily better because she can promote and become a 1RKO'ing machine with high Mov. It stays this way all up to Endgame. And even then, she can be useful.

[Naglfar]

The only thing Gatrie is dounling by 3-1 are Mages and some Generals. His offense doesn't beat Ike, considering Ike 1RKO's here and at the previous chapter.

I'll concede that, my memory isn't very good.

Gatrie is a fantastic combat unit after Crowning and Celerity. But he isn't better than Ike because the only thing he's winning on is at better 2-range for all of Part 3.

I didn't use a crown until 20, for what it's worth. Are you insinuating that better 2 range for all of P3 isn't a major factor with the player/enemy unit ratio and amount of enemies with 2 range as they are?

Then there's the fact Ike's free,

Were you thinking when you wrote this? Are we short of deployment slots in drafts now?

and still 1RKO'd at 1-range combat.

So does Gatrie, but he doesn't have to equip Ettard or the Brave Sword or some other 1 range locked weapon to do it. This is not always an issue, but it comes up plenty.

And needing to rely on Adept to 1RKO with Wind edges isn't a bad thing either. Just mean Ike can actually catch up with only that. Yet, 2-range isn't heavily needed at Part 3 like it is at Part 4, where Ike finally has Ragnell.

It's not half as good as being able to 1RKO with hand axes without relying on skill procs. Also, 3-4? 3-5? 3-8? 3-10? I remember 2 range being a huge boon here.

Being worse than an invincible character is bad?

Hyperbole. It's certainly not as good as being an invincible character, though.

I think I'll make an analogy and see how they perform against each other. You've already trivialized a few chapters, so I'll just continue:

3-4: Ike gets dibs on Celerity. Why? Well, I want to 8-turn this. =P Ike might as well stomp the enemies standing in his way. (Winner: Ike)

3-5: Celerity!Gatrie goes for Lombroso (Winner: Gatrie)

3-7: Wut.

3-8: I'll clearly concede you that Gatrie owns this map.

3-10: Another rout map. I consider this one somewhat of a tie considering they take different sides in which they both stomp enemies. It's basically a kill vs. an overkill.

3-11: Celerty!Ike strikes once again.

3-E: Gatrie. Easily.

And for Part 4, we know Gatrie wins. So, overall, Ike wins.

@bold: Gatrie's "side" is bigger than Ike's. Ike also needs help to keep up.

@italic: No he doesn't, a flier with Saviour does.

@underline: I assume you meant Ike wins P4. Yeah, marginally. I still disagree with you.

Titania has Gatrie and Haar-like offense. Except it's actually better. Like Haar, she has a mount. Yet, she doesn't fly. At 3-P & 3-1, we know Ike is winning. But after that, she's just easily better because she can promote and become a 1RKO'ing machine with high Mov. It stays this way all up to Endgame. And even then, she can be useful.

Good point. Somehow I forgot that Titania joins at --/16.

[Florete]

Yes, I didn't think of this list as "Who is most likely to be picked first to last", just "Who's better than who". Doesn't mean you still can't use this to conclude who is most likely to be chosen.

In this case, wouldn't they be struck with something like an availability advantage where they are the only ones always in play? Depending on who the player did or did not draft, they could be the only ones around for a while usable without penalties.

[Junkhead]

I didn't use a crown until 20, for what it's worth. Are you insinuating that better 2 range for all of P3 isn't a major factor with the player/enemy unit ratio and amount of enemies with 2 range as they are?

That's right. And their aren't lots of 2-range enemies either throughout Part 3.

Were you thinking when you wrote this? Are we short of deployment slots in drafts now?

Free characters are on the list for a reason, you know. That reason would be that they also count as units despite not being draftable.

So does Gatrie, but he doesn't have to equip Ettard or the Brave Sword or some other 1 range locked weapon to do it. This is not always an issue, but it comes up plenty.

Ike doesnt either. Remember you were the one that implied Ike is given Adept if no one else has claim to it? That gets Ike to 1RKO, even with Steel swords.

It's not half as good as being able to 1RKO with hand axes without relying on skill procs. Also, 3-4? 3-5? 3-8? 3-10? I remember 2 range being a huge boon here.

3-8 and possibly 3-10 is where you'll need 2-range the most, actually.

Hyperbole. It's certainly not as good as being an invincible character, though.

It's like comparing a character that borderline 1RKO's to a character that 1RKO's and overkills. What's the point of it being "better" when Ike only survives some less hits than Gatrie, but enough to be insanely durable?

@bold: Gatrie's "side" is bigger than Ike's. Ike also needs help to keep up.

@italic: No he doesn't, a flier with Saviour does.

@underline: I assume you meant Ike wins P4. Yeah, marginally. I still disagree with you.

Bold: "Needs help to keep up"? He 1RKO's every enemy at that side with a Steel blade. He just needs find a good positioning for enemies to attack, since not all enemies there are willing to go suicide to him.

Italic: Because it's assumed we all draft fliers. No, not really. If you don't have a flier by then, he certainly needs Celerity. We need him to get to the seize square rather quickly. And even after fliers, I saw he needs Celerity to reach the seize square by around turn 6 or 7.

Italic: Yeah, major typo there. =/ But you know what I meant...

In this case, wouldn't they be struck with something like an availability advantage where they are the only ones always in play? Depending on who the player did or did not draft, they could be the only ones around for a while usable without penalties.

I tried to make that as fair as I could think of for the unit. But some units can't really make up for their decent availability. Which is the Unholy Trinity's case.

[dondon151]

Celerity is like a Dracoshield: it works best on units who already have a high value in that stat.

Unless Gatrie is your only drafted unit in part 3, Celerity on him is a terrible idea.

[Junkhead]

Me and Naggy actually thought about it, "What if you drafted Haar?". We thought it's pointless to even be having Gatrie in the first place when you have Haar or Titania to overkill it with 11 Mov.

[Anouleth]

The other GMs don't really need it. He does. That's just like taking away the opportunity of someone like Haar to use the Speedwings just because Mia can use it to cap her Speed for better BEXP slowplay potential.

I don't think that's the point. A team with Celerity Gatrie has an 8 move unit. A team with Celerity Mia or Celerity Boyd has a 9 move unit. He is still 1 move behind, not getting into taking increased movement penalties from terrain and being more difficult to Shove and Smite. It might be the case that Gatrie is always the best choice for Celerity (which I don't believe for a second), but that doesn't matter since he still needs to deal with the opportunity cost of taking it.

[Junkhead]

I don't think that's the point. A team with Celerity Gatrie has an 8 move unit. A team with Celerity Mia or Celerity Boyd has a 9 move unit. He is still 1 move behind, not getting into taking increased movement penalties from terrain and being more difficult to Shove and Smite. It might be the case that Gatrie is always the best choice for Celerity (which I don't believe for a second), but that doesn't matter since he still needs to deal with the opportunity cost of taking it.

I meant he was the best unit to make use it because unlike others, he actually needs it. Mia or Gatrie are just wasting space for a skill like Adept. Haar doesn't make much impact if given Celerity. It just makes him overkill. And it's not like thickets and gap are everywhere as to make that an issue for Gatrie.

[Anouleth]

I meant he was the best unit to make use it because unlike others, he actually needs it. Mia or Gatrie are just wasting space for a skill like Adept. Haar doesn't make much impact if given Celerity. It just makes him overkill. And it's not like thickets and gap are everywhere as to make that an issue for Gatrie.

There is no such thing as 'needing'. Gatrie does not 'need' Celerity, you can deploy him without giving the skill to him. Rather, what you should be saying is 'in order to be comparable to a character like Mia or Boyd, Gatrie needs to take Celerity to overcome his cruddy movement'. But even then his movement is still a shortcoming because Mia and Boyd can take Celerity when appropriate, while Gatrie does not have the option to take Celerity twice.

And there is also no such thing as overkilling movement. 11 move Haar can do things that 9 move Haar cannot. For example, he has enough movement to drop Ike next to the boss of 3-11 on turn 4, which facilitates a 5 turn clear without needing Leanne (providing you can prevent other enemies from blocking Haar's movement too much), and the same applies for Marcia/Tanith/Sigrun if you can make them durable enough to survive the trip (although you would probably end up settling for a 6-turn clear because of Goran - Haar probably doesn't double him and the Seraph Knights obviously can't engage him). Gatrie cannot take Celerity just because other characters already have better movement. He actually needs to be able to do something useful with it.

[Junkhead]

Gatrie cannot take Celerity just because other characters already have better movement. He actually needs to be able to do something useful with it.

And he can. His combat is better than Boyd's because he starts doubling much faster. He has significant durability over the two, also. By 'needing' I mean he needs it to overcome his already crap Mov. I just see 7 Mov as enough. It's not like the impact is huge unless you give it to Haar or Titania.