Death

[shadowofchaos]

To quote Epicurus, "Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist."

Well, that's definitely an interesting approach to it.

Man, now this topic got me thinking about it. Death is the reason religion is such a big part of people's lives (as in people in general) and why it's such a big subject.

Unlike any other experience, there's no one to tell us about it. As in, well, no one has experienced Death and lived to tell the tale (not a joke, I'm just having a lack of words here).

No one is there to unveil the mysteries of it to you. That's why many philosophers, religions, whatever try to explain it. Even how you say "that's it, you're done" is also mingled in with all the other explanations.

The point is, live your life as best as you believe. When it comes, it comes. And you probably don't have to worry about it, well, since, you're gone.

[Celice]

You made me wonder if I remember right, so I did a touch of research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

But again, associative memory and actual self-reflexive awareness are two entirely different subjects. Looking into a mirror and seeing a phenomena which occurs under specific circumstances every time (such as the reflection of a dog) doesn't mean they suddenly have self-awareness. It means that there's now an event which the dog can entertain itself with--like remembering at 5:00 its owners return home, it acknowledges that when in front of the mirror, a familiar image returns, or that playing with the cat may not be the best thing to do.

True self-awareness isn't about interacting and acknowledging actuality. It's about interpreting and defining oneself through the self-cognitive features. Looking and responding to a mirror image isn't indicative of this, just as ivy twining towards the sun isn't indicative of a conscious level of awareness. It's always hard to differentiate what is simple cause-effect, or basic interactions, as being just awareness, and what actually is self-awareness. Perhaps the best way to separate them is when, in this case, the dog specifically and objectively goes about its life in a very specific, unconditioned fashion. Or in other words, it acts in a way it has never been, or has had the chance to be, conditioned. Acting without previous exposure--directly creating new phenomena, rather than accepting it. It's an interesting thing which has been talked about forever, but usually, talked about in circles, and with illogical associations and conditions.

(and death is full of poo, and fully irrelevant until you decide it isn't--holders of your own noose, disperse)

[Phoenix Wright]

Please don't assume that about me.

Why do you have a problem with the statement that you had no emotions before you were born?

Edited May 14, 2011 by Phoenix Wright

[eclipse]

But again, associative memory and actual self-reflexive awareness are two entirely different subjects. Looking into a mirror and seeing a phenomena which occurs under specific circumstances every time (such as the reflection of a dog) doesn't mean they suddenly have self-awareness. It means that there's now an event which the dog can entertain itself with--like remembering at 5:00 its owners return home, it acknowledges that when in front of the mirror, a familiar image returns, or that playing with the cat may not be the best thing to do.

True self-awareness isn't about interacting and acknowledging actuality. It's about interpreting and defining oneself through the self-cognitive features. Looking and responding to a mirror image isn't indicative of this, just as ivy twining towards the sun isn't indicative of a conscious level of awareness. It's always hard to differentiate what is simple cause-effect, or basic interactions, as being just awareness, and what actually is self-awareness. Perhaps the best way to separate them is when, in this case, the dog specifically and objectively goes about its life in a very specific, unconditioned fashion. Or in other words, it acts in a way it has never been, or has had the chance to be, conditioned. Acting without previous exposure--directly creating new phenomena, rather than accepting it. It's an interesting thing which has been talked about forever, but usually, talked about in circles, and with illogical associations and conditions.

(and death is full of poo, and fully irrelevant until you decide it isn't--holders of your own noose, disperse)

The mirror test is one way of testing for self-awareness. Unfortunately, we do not have the facilities to hold a meaningful conversation with animals, so the best we can do is theorize what they are capable of.

"For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much — the wheel, New York, wars and so on — whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man — for precisely the same reasons."

-- So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish, Chapter 23

Why do you have a problem with the statement that you had no emotions before you were born?

Second sentence.

[Zanarkin]

Second sentence.

He wasn't assuming, he made an if statement, so that would only apply to those that actually feel like that. If you don't feel like that, then why do you have a problem with it? He wasn't assuming.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[eclipse]

Since it seems that people have a problem with this, I'll repost it.

If it saddens you to think that at some point in the future you will no longer physically exist then why does it not sadden you to think of the trillions of years before you were born in which you were also absent.

First part of the sentence: I won't care because I've done my part.

Second part: I am sad, because so much has happened before, and all I can do at this point is look backwards and wonder just how badly history has been warped.

The past is set; the future is not.

[Phoenix Wright]

Personally, I disagree with the second part because I wasn't alive in the past. Now that I'm alive, I'm afraid of not existing.

[Fire Emblem Addict]

Ok, for the self-awareness thing, I think the mirror test is a good indicator of self-awareness since animals that pass the test realize that it is themselves that they are seeing in the mirror and not another individual of the same species. Therefore, those animal are aware of the fact that they exist. As for the article, I think what the author was trying to say was that death is not a state in and of itself, it is the absence of a specific state -- the state of being alive.

[Original Alear]

Ok, for the self-awareness thing, I think the mirror test is a good indicator of self-awareness since animals that pass the test realize that it is themselves that they are seeing in the mirror and not another individual of the same species. Therefore, those animal are aware of the fact that they exist. As for the article, I think what the author was trying to say was that death is not a state in and of itself, it is the absence of a specific state -- the state of being alive.

*Applause*

Because I feel that the rules of serious discussion require me to add more,

Your points remind me of a quote from science fiction along the lines of "each individual fragment of the universe reflects the whole universe" which may have been inspired by Leibniz's monadology, the idea that each of the smallest monads reflects the whole of existence.

So in other words, I accept everything you said.

[ShyGuy417]

Death is such an interesting topic. My death requests are that I at least live long enough to fulfill certain goals. Those are to get married, have kids, have a job I love, see kids get married, see grandkids, lead at least one person to Christ.

I don't fear death because I know there is something better than life. Plus there is a promise of a long life if you honor your father and mother, so I can rest easy.

[Rapier]

As an athiest I have a completely open mind. However, I use skepticism as a sieve. I don't believe in unicorns, ghosts, souls, goblins, boogeymen or Santa Clause, why would I believe in God? It's not giving up, it's just being realistic. I don't really want this to turn into a religion thread, but I'm just clarifying what athiesm is. We claim there is no God in the same way you would claim that the boogeyman doesn't exist. Basically, I don't believe things without evidence, and it has always served me well.

Yet you don't need to prove something for that thing to exist, or for that thing to be true. It's a fallacy. The Earth was always round, even though people believed it was flat. The Sun was always the center of the universe (ours, at least), even before we believed the Earth was the center of the universe. Things exist because they are, not because they need to be proved and understood scientifically.

Now, about death... It's one of the things I fear the most, but not the thing I fear the most. Regret and failure scare me much more than that. Can one live even though he knows he's nothing, as in, an utter failure who's failed not only with those he loves, but with himself? To live being treated like trash, meaningless? For me, the answer is no. Life has only meaning with a purpose, in my opinion, even though I consider it a purposeless cycle on which we humans give some meaning because we need to, and because we're bound to our mind proccess.

EDIT: I didn't even see that this topic is from 2011, oshi----

Edited February 5, 2013 by Rapier

[Original Alear]

Now, about death... It's one of the things I fear the most, but not the thing I fear the most. Regret and failure scare me much more than that. Can one live even though he knows he's nothing, as in, an utter failure who's failed not only with those he loves, but with himself? To live being treated like trash, meaningless? For me, the answer is no. Life has only meaning with a purpose, in my opinion, even though I consider it a purposeless cycle on which we humans give some meaning because we need to, and because we're bound to our mind proccess.

Lol Rapier I love you, you're awesome. Or you pulled some good material off me a while back. But since I love myself, I love you for copying me.

However, I think I've found that I'm a bit more fouled up than that. I've made some wishes I regret, and when it seems like they've been fulfilled, I feel both potent, and a failure. Is it worse, though, to believe that I have no impact? I don't think so. There's fear associated with that. If you're worried you are trash,

But for my part, I think I'm a bit too obstinate and proud for that. I'm not worried about being trash, I'm worried about being food. In the rare instances where I feel unnoticed - and, incidentally, unloved, uncherished, unvalued - I feel a little free. Right now there's a pit of cold pulsing in my diaphragm that grew with those words, and I believe it's overtaking the warmth that was pulsing before. And they're both still there. It's quite interesting, hot and cold together in such a small area of my own body (right around the soloplex or whatever).

Shrugs. It can go away at any time - and I think it's going now that I said that.

[Tamanoir]

Honestly, I wasn't a lot exposed to death. Never directly at least. My cat died some years ago, but I wasn't here when he was buried. He was only a shadow of himself, though...

Each time, the impression I hadwas of... ireality. It took times to accept.

Honestly,it's the death of the others that are terrible, not my own death.

It's mainly because Ibelieve that there are truly nothing once you're dead. It really is a comforting thought for me.

As the others... They exists through the memories you have of them. That's already good enough.

[eclipse]

I need more time, 'cause I'm not catching this stuff sooner!

As this is a gigantic necropost, I am closing this topic. If you wanna continue this, make a topic and link back here!