Why all the hate for SS?

[dondon151]

12/4? Wtf

In fact, I have played this chapter before. Three times. Twice were S Ranking.

Well, boo for you. Next time you claim that CoD is easy, try turtling just as hard in Pirate Ship. Trust me, that is a piece of cake.

And again, I'm gonna call into question the supposition that the enemy Valkyries have 28 Mag. For starters, that's 3 points over their cap.

Make an appointment with your opthamologist - I clearly said that druids had 28 mag; I never said that valks had 28 mag. Valks have around 15-16 mag and will still hit any melee growth units even after Pure Water.

The enemy druids DO have that much mag, but they're by Lloyd and not a large factor on the map as a whole until you've already cleared most of the large enemy waves.

Nope, you're most definitely going to get one to come at you before finishing with half of the map. Unless you're turtling. In which case, why argue about maps beind hard? You know, if one of those druids moves, she'll cover even more of the map because she can move again on the next turn.

[General Banzai]

You can't turtle Ghost Ship. Three reasons.

1. L'Arachel

2. The enemies on the Ghost Ship pretty much all die when they attack you, and they attack about ten at a time. Sitting at the chokepoints isn't gonna stop that.

3. Deathgoyle and posse/mogalls spawning at your flank turn 3.

If you're gonna beat Ghost Ship, it'll be in 5-6 turns, whether you want it to or not.

[Parrhesia]

I was at one point forced to clear Ghost Ship through Ephraim, Seth and Duessel in a corner. L'Arachel probably died or something, but at any rate I finished with what was a distinctly chelonian formation. So yeah, it's possible, you just have to have units tough enough to bite Death's fingers off and spit them back in his face. Luck required? Not sure, but I didn't savestate.

As for why I did that...don't ask.

[Lord Raven]

1. L'Arachel

No. Get Tana or Vanessa to rescue her; if my Tana (with like 15 spd, Slim Lance, and prob like 12 luck) could rescue Larachael and bring her all the way to the first ship in the HM patch then it would be easy as hell for a well-built Vanessa to do the same in a much easier mode.

[dondon151]

1. L'Arachel

Doesn't have to live.

2. The enemies on the Ghost Ship pretty much all die when they attack you, and they attack about ten at a time. Sitting at the chokepoints isn't gonna stop that.

Meatshield and use Seth and Duessel.

3. Deathgoyle and posse/mogalls spawning at your flank turn 3.

So? Plenty of enemies spawn in CoD too.

[shadowofchaos]

FE6 was my first FE game. Loved it.

Got ahold of FE7... hated the tutorial chapters, but I was able to bear through it. Kinda liked the game. Played it a second time for the supports (and without that dang tutorial).

FE8? Could... BARELY... finish it.

For the Elibe Fanboys (I'll admit I'm one of them), FE8 at face value wasn't that great.

I don't HATE the game, but I liked FE10 more than FE8. And... FE10 to me... was definitely an "ehh" on the plot development.

Taking it at face value, FE8 is worthy of the "Fire Emblem" and lives up to the expectations you would have of the series... it's a great game once you get into it.

But... that was the problem for me. I couldn't get into it that well. The most memorable part to me... was the freaking opening scene when Renais gets attacked.

You might argue that "I haven't played the game enough". I can accept that. The fact is, there wasn't enough appeal for me to make me LIKE the game. True FE7 had its share of bland characters, but even reading the support convos... FE8 characters didn't appeal to me. I only shipped one pairing, and that's Gerik x Tethys.

FE7 was meh also in the support conversation department... but it was interesting for some people like Dart and his memory loss. Rebecca and Wil as childhood friends. Eliwood and Ninian's little glances at each other even OUTSIDE support conversations.

I'm more than likely biased with FE6 characters too... considering I recorded every single one to be put up on Youtube.

[Celice]

I remember FE8 was so much fun to find information about before it arrived. Each new scan seemed like it was revealing a cooler and better Fire Emblem than we had the last two times. A lot of those scans ended up showing early footage which didn't end up in the final game, but their initial concepts were still pretty interesting. It kept interest vied along the course of development, and at such a large rate that hasn't been reproduced the same before. (FE9 didn't have much coverage, FE10 a bit more initially then dropped dead, and who cared about remakes with like three pages).

That allurement, along with the intensified aesthetic atmosphere (compared with the last two games), and the splitting of development teams between FE8 and FE9 (or rather, two separate projects, as FE9 was actually announced and worked on long before FE8), lead a good chunk of fans to retain a strong interest in the game. And we weren't disappointed when it came out.

We also didn't care much for comparing. We had our games to compare, and this was something new. That "newness" seems to not exist for many players who didn't get the chance to follow the game from its out-of-the-shadows page scans and into final form.

[Smiley Jim]

Let's see my experience...

I'm going to be completely honest with you all. I really don't like FE8 that much, and we actually got into a little rant on it in my FE7 playthrough.,

As for why I dislike it, it was mostly because even with HM bonuses, the game was still too easy, even without the use of tank units to absorb blows. In fact, the only hard chapters in that game, in my opinion, were C11 Eph and C14 Eph(and even the first I mentioned can be trivialized by Seth and Duracell. I myself used Gilliam.) Everything else was a joke. Also, I disliked the story for reasons that I can't comprehend, but at least it wasn't Shadow Dragon. Oh god I hated that game. The story itself was more cliched than anything else I saw in an FE game, character development was just about non-existient(srsly, about half the cast had NO lines other than their death quote), and they fucked with a bunch of other things.

[VincentASM]

I remember the hype for FE8 as well, those were some good days. Although in my case, I was actually kind of disappointed with how FE8 turned out, despite importing the game when it first came out. On the other hand, FE9 looked less interesting from scans, but it turned out to be the better and interesting game for me.

I think the problem with FE8 (for me at least) is that none of its new ideas were really that interesting in practice. For instance...

Its nice that they gave you the option to choose promotions, but it didn't really matter which option you picked because growths were unchanged, so your stats would be similar either way.

That and by the time your characters promoted, you start facing promoted enemies who are complete jokes (in Normal mode). To this day, I still wonder if they messed up the coding, because it bothers me to see, say, Level 5 Snipers who are about as strong as Level 10 Archers and these same Snipers would be on the same map as Level 20 Archers or something.

Being a diehard FE fan used to the linear progress of the earlier titles, for me, the optional battles only served to draw out the game and make things too easy if you use them (in a regular Normal mode playthrough), so I just skipped them. The Tower and Ruins were long and boring, just filled with monsters with no story. Capping out every character's stats in the postgame also seemed "wrong", making every character perform the same.

As for more personal opinions, none of the characters really clicked for me and I didn't really like the darker palette. I guess I was just too used to FE6/7's pastel colours. It might just be my imagination or maybe the way IS split the teams, but FE8 almost seemed like a fan game to me, albeit a really good one, rather than a proper FE game.

[General Banzai]

Doesn't have to live.

White Gem. Plus, what's the point of playing the game if you're not gonna do anything the game expects you to do?

Meatshield and use Seth and Duessel.

Seth doesn't have all that stellar def.

So? Plenty of enemies spawn in CoD too.

Not directly behind you and at a spot inaccessible to you until they start attacking you.

[Florete]

White Gem. Plus, what's the point of playing the game if you're not gonna do anything the game expects you to do?

If you are really having so much trouble with the map, you can forgo things like a redundant character and money. Most people play games for fun, not to do whatever your idea of the game's random side objectives is.

[RNG Princess]

If you are really having so much trouble with the map, you can forgo things like a redundant character and money. Most people play games for fun, not to do whatever your idea of the game's random side objectives is.

I don't think it would be too hard to keep her alive either way. We have 3 fliers by then and two tanks (Seth and Duessel), Ephraim is also very solid and there are also side units who deal heavy damage to monsters (like Artur/Moulder/Natasha), Neimi can stomp on the enemy fliers if she was trained. I honestly don't find Ch.11B to be that difficult, I think 14B is more challenging due to the berserk druids making it hard for res screwed units to go up there and finish quick adding to that Vigarde is also a difficult boss.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Florete]

I don't think it would be too hard to keep her alive either way. We have 3 fliers by then and two tanks (Seth and Duessel), Ephraim is also very solid and there are also side units who deal heavy damage to monsters (like Artur/Moulder/Natasha), Neimi can stomp on the enemy fliers if she was trained. I honestly don't find Ch.11B to be that difficult, I think 14B is more challenging due to the berserk druids making it hard for res screwed units to go up there and finish quick adding to that Vigarde is also a difficult boss.

I'm not saying I think it's hard, but General Banzai listed her as an "objective" of clearing the map - one that makes it more difficult - when it actually isn't.

[RNG Princess]

I'm not saying I think it's hard, but General Banzai listed her as an "objective" of clearing the map - one that makes it more difficult - when it actually isn't.

Oh ^^' thats true, if we impose side rules like that obviously a map will be harder. However even if we make it an objective to keep her alive it shouldn't be as hard as he says it is. I'm playing that map right now, for a draft, so I know what I'm talking about ^^'

Edited July 12, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Radiant Dragon]

White Gem. Plus, what's the point of playing the game if you're not gonna do anything the game expects you to do?

I don't think I've ever had problems with L'Arachel surviving that map, thanks to Dozla.

Seth doesn't have all that stellar def.

He has more than enough. Ephraim can also hold a bridge, and even Garcia and Cormag can get some action if you're smart about it.

Not directly behind you and at a spot inaccessible to you until they start attacking you.

Instead, they spawn all over the damn map (including Vaida directly behind you).

[Loki Laufeyson]

I really cant remember hype for FE8. I wasnt really a part of the fandom then so..yeah. I do remember seeing it come out and me go "well damn. Im gonna buy that." I even bought the official guide for it for the artwork. (sure was handy when locating the hidden items and secret shops though.) My hype was had for FE9 though. Hoo boy.

[General Banzai]

I recall there not being much hype for FESS because PoR was announced around the same time.

[Hippoman]

I don't think I've ever had problems with L'Arachel surviving that map, thanks to Dozla.

He has more than enough. Ephraim can also hold a bridge, and even Garcia and Cormag can get some action if you're smart about it.

Instead, they spawn all over the damn map (including Vaida directly behind you).

The first time I played Cog I had no idea Vaida even existed, and for some reason I was too dumb to deselect units in Prep, so I left my weak unpromoted lords and Nino right at spawn, with no weapons.

I'm definitely looking forward to this Phantom Ship now.

[NeverBanned]

I recall there not being much hype for FESS because PoR was announced around the same time.

I can confirm this. In fact, PoR was actually announced first, and since it was supposedly a return to the console glory of the Super Famicom titles, "yet another" GBA game wasn't quite as appealing. Especially since it took place in an entirely new- and untested- universe.

While I give it a hard time, let me go on record as stating that Fire Emblem 8 is a solid strategy RPG. Trouble is, the game immediately preceding it is better in just about every relevant way: better character development, bigger cast, more chapters, more creative/challenging map design, a smoother difficulty curve, more gameplay modes, a ranking system, far superior character balance, the inclusion of real gaiden chapters, and- most importantly of all- it actually poses a challenge. The problem with FE8's difficulty has nothing to do with the Tower, which just serves to train up new recruits (or make an already easy game even easier): even without any abuse to speak of, the game is a breeze, and the lack of rankings is felt that much more as a result. I'm really not exaggerating when I say that S-Ranking Eliwood Normal mode is about as challenging as beating HM. And no, Pirate Ship isn't that hard of a map; I'd say it's about equal to HHM's FoW-Living Legend without going for the gaiden requirement.

Now, there are a handful of areas where FE8 wins out pretty indisputably, though I'm not sure how much they matter. SS has post-game content, though it's bland and repetitive (and FE7 encourages multiple playthroughs anyway); it also has branching promotions, though it always boils down to Choice A: The Clearly Superior Choice, and Choice B: Because You Wanted Some Variety. Quick note: after reading through this topic, I've seen a lot of Lyon/Nergal comparisons. That's an easy one: Lyon wins. Period. Especially on Ephraim's route, where his motivations are muddled even to himself for most of the game. But Nergal certainly compares favorably to, say, Valter, who seems to be a spiritual successor to the Dark Druid. And on the whole, 7's got a better supporting cast of villains.

I sympathize with Sacred Stones. I really do. It's an otherwise passable sRPG that's completely overshadowed by its predecessor, which is among the best strategy games ever made.

[Anouleth]

Now, there are a handful of areas where FE8 wins out pretty indisputably, though I'm not sure how much they matter. SS has post-game content, though it's bland and repetitive (and FE7 encourages multiple playthroughs anyway); it also has branching promotions, though it always boils down to Choice A: The Clearly Superior Choice, and Choice B: Because You Wanted Some Variety.

That's not true. Many of the choices have their own advantages. Swordmaster's higher strength versus Assassin's higher EXP gain. Bishop's staff rank against Sage's superior combat. I don't think there are any choices in the game that are clearly overwhelmingly in favour of one side or another before you take into account the reliance on movement and staff access in efficient play.

[VincentASM]

I can confirm this. In fact, PoR was actually announced first, and since it was supposedly a return to the console glory of the Super Famicom titles, "yet another" GBA game wasn't quite as appealing. Especially since it took place in an entirely new- and untested- universe.

I feel weird arguing about historical hype of all things, but I distinctively remember, back at FESS, which used to the dominant FE community, more people being interested in FE8 than FE9.

People didn't like FE9 because of silly things like catgirls, mediocre graphics and being on the poor-selling GameCube. It was only after FE8's release and close towards FE9's release, when more interesting screenshots were released, did people start getting interested.

I really don't remember people complaining about another handheld FE. Most FE fans had only played FE7, barely knew about FE6 and were craving for more handheld FE. Especially one that seemed to build on the strong premise that FE7 set.

FE9 also took place in a new universe, so not sure what you meant about that point...

Or maybe like SF, FESS was just weird : P

Edited August 7, 2011 by VincentASM

[DragonBladeSniper]

Wow I just spent quite a lot of time reading through the 8 pages and the subjects discussed were pretty varied. xD I agree with whoever said that people didn't like FE8 as much as FE7 (I say FE7 because it's probably the easiest to compare since they're on the same platform and FE6 was quite different imo) because they played FE7 first. I've also played FE7 first and I don't like FE8 as much, but I still like it quite a lot. I don't get why people are so obsessed with difficulty in games though, I feel very proud after beating a Fire Emblem game because it takes me a while and I start to remember all the chapters and enemies I had to beat to finish. I remember all the funny moments like RNG acting strangely and the frustration of having to restart chapters. But that's just me, I guess a lot of people have fun being annoyed by very hard chapters.

When I think of it, if so many people like FE8 less because of it's lack of difficulty, do a lot of people like FE5 the most because it's the hardest? (I never played but I remember FE5 being the hardest FE) Actually FE11 H5 is apparently very hard (didn't try either) but not many people like it. So I guess it's a mix of everything...?

[Geriba]

That's not true. Many of the choices have their own advantages. Swordmaster's higher strength versus Assassin's higher EXP gain. Bishop's staff rank against Sage's superior combat. I don't think there are any choices in the game that are clearly overwhelmingly in favour of one side or another before you take into account the reliance on movement and staff access in efficient play.

I was being a little facetious with that description, but it is true that a good many (probably the majority) of branching class choices are no-brainers. In fact, why not make a comprehensive list, just to know for sure?

Recruit -> Knight / Cavalier ; A sword and extra movement versus, uh, nothing.

Knight -> General / Great Knight ; Both have complete weapon dominance, and GK has extra movement compared to the General's low-activation, low-use skill.

Cavalier -> Great Knight / Paladin ; Axes are nice, but unnecessary, and two movement is just too sweet to pass up.

Journeyman -> Fighter / Pirate ; Alright, this one's pretty equal, but it's a trainee example, so take it worth its grain of salt.

Fighter -> Hero / Warrior ; In a battle between swords and bows, the winner is obvious (especially when the Hero's promotion gains are so much better).

Pirate -> Warrior / Berserker ; An additional weapon type is always more practical than a meager crit. bonus, particularly when that weapon is effective against fliers.

Archer -> Sniper / Ranger ; Do I need to explain this one?

Mercenary -> Ranger / Hero ; Again, pretty equal. Being able to rush through things with +1 movement is great, but so are axes. Pass.

Myrmidon -> Swordmaster / Assassin ; Again, pretty equal. How much of an impact the experience increase will make depends upon how liberal one's KE use is, and the retained lockpick ability of assassins is nice.

Thief -> Assassin / Rogue ; Lockpicks aren't exactly hard to come by, which is the only advantage Rogues have going for them.

Pegasus Knight -> Falcon Knight / Wyvern Knight ; Swords versus a completely useless (and sometimes game-freezing) skill.

Wyvern Rider -> Wyvern Knight / Wyvern Lord ; See above. It's worth noting that, as far as promotion gains go, this one's close, with the +1 STR/HP and +2 DEF of the WL versus the +3 SP of the WK.

Pupil -> Mage / Shaman ; Dark magic is heavy and basically unusable.

Mage -> Mage Knight / Sage ; An unnecessary magic type (are dark magic users ever a threat in FE8?) versus a higher movement stat.

Shaman -> Druid / Summoner ; I personally feel that Summoners are an underrated class, but there's no denying that anima is better than Phantoms.

Monk/Priest -> Bishop / Sage ; In a game dominated by monster units, Slayer is simply too good to pass up.

Cleric -> Valkyrie / Bishop ; Another even choice, as it depends upon the make-up of your team.

Troubadour -> Mage Knight / Valkyrie ; It's a choice between one magic type and a clearly inferior alternative.

By my count, that's four fairly equal choices (one of which is a trainee choice) out of the 18 total. That doesn't exactly scream "balance," and- except in a rare number of situations- it means that the choice is all but made for the efficiency-savvy tactician.

Edited August 9, 2011 by Doomguy

[CT075]

Shaman -> Sage / Summoner ; I personally feel that Summoners are an underrated class, but there's no denying that anima is better than Phantoms.

I'm going to be an idiot here and point out the obvious mistake.

[General Banzai]

Yeah but efficiency is a standard concocted by internet people for the sole purpose of having inane tier list discussion for a noncompetitive game, and doesn't actually reflect what the developers intended when creating the game.

I mean, that most of the split promotions are inferior to others when playing a slightly-slower speedrun of the game is hardly a point against the game's favor

Also, by this line of reasoning, we can say that FE7 having more characters than FESS isn't a point in FE7's favor since the efficiency-savvy tactician is only going to use the select handful of clearly superior units when playing the game.