Fire Emblem 12 ~Heroes~ Translation Project

[Celice]

Maybe you could stop complaining all together so as to make your assertions correct and have a triumph over me? We'd both win with that one .

It's very hard to do so when it's dependent on you to read it as so :( I have no say in the matter.

I've outlined standards of "improvement" several times in this topic, maybe you could invest a little time into fairly reading our arguments before you commit a logical fallacy talking about them.

Again, there is no definable argument for the changes. There is nothing which supports the names so far other than the desire to see change for the sake of change. It's as fine a reason as any, but there is little withstanding that supports it outside of the desire itself. Whereas against the changes, there's actual reason to not. Again, this is the only issue that is brought up--and it's the issue to stand. It's neither good or bad. Least of all a "triumph." The perception that it is one is of your own as a reader. That is the care you should take--to avoid seeing things which never really are there. Coloring a person leads to misassumption. It's as straw man as you can get.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Celice

[Arch]

I'm not trying to "color" you. You really do argue everything, and one statement (the one about translations who follow our methods not being accepted) jumped out as implying some idea for a boycott by the fandom, as you stated happened with similar attempts as ours'. It might be in the best interest of a debater to see to it that he writes cogent statements which avoid derivable undertones that weren't intended to be derivable. That's just my take on it, anyways.

The main argument for changing names has been outlined again and again. But, I guess I'll spell it out one last time. We are seeking to provide a professional-grade translation, part of that process is improving on the cast's unofficial names. We want aesthetic, sensible names (as in, something we'd actually call a person, I'm looking at YOU Belf). We'd like to keep roots of the katakana, but sometimes this isn't always in the best interest of getting aesthetic, sensible names. Some names in FE12 (not all, as is the case with a character like Warren) don't make the transition from Japanese to a Latin-based language very well. I'd argue that Samto/Samuto is a fine sample of this, certainly. There's also, as you put it, a bit of "because we want to," mostly out of a small desire to deviate from the FE3 translation to give this project an identity of its own (that desire expressed by VincentASM). The only arguments I really see in opposition are the crowd of people who don't like the idea of changing names at all (mostly because of "comfort," which is essentially a non-issue), and the crowd of people who want a "direct" translation (which, the way I see it, purely literal translation is a bunch of bullpucky no matter how you slice it). Correct me if I'm wrong there (because I could easily myself be committing a strawman), but that's basically the way I see it. There are some good reasons for, and no real concrete arguments against.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Arch

[Parrhesia]

Honestly, if some people choose to boycott and play in their beloved Japanese until they can make the Google Translate edition, I don't see how that harms anyone except themselves.

[dondon151]

So, what about my suggestion of "Bell" or "Belves" as more accurate alternatives than "Vergil?"

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think the obvious thing to do is rename Belf to Dolph. Seems like a perfectly good name.

Then we can just rename Tomth to Thomas!

[Rewjeo]

Hey, look, someone FINALLY offered me an answer! It wasn't actually at all in regards to my post, and it wasn't specifically about Malliesia/Malicia, but hey, it's something!

The main argument for changing names has been outlined again and again. But, I guess I'll spell it out one last time. We are seeking to provide a professional-grade translation, part of that process is improving on the cast's unofficial names. We want aesthetic, sensible names

Again, improving a name in this case is so subjective. Wait, you've defined it as more "aesthetic, sensible." Now, if only those were not also subjective terms. Well, I'd guess that the only way to determine what it best when something is subjective would be to go by popular opinion.

And then you go on to say that people only want some names to stay the same so that they are more familiar! Why, are these not the same reasons to "improve" the names? And to go with FE11's names? The argument for not changing the names is the same as yours for changing the names! The thing is, as I said, Malliesia, in the one poll you guys bothered to put up, so excuse me if it's "bull****," did massively better than Malicia. Doesn't that tell you which one is more aesthetically pleasing? What about sensible? Malicia is a word on its own, and it also tied to malicious. Neither of those words make any sense with this character. Notice the word sense? And there not being any? I'd say that's not sensible.

Oh, and I'd still like to hear your reasoning specifically regarding Malicia.

*here's hoping someone replies to this now*

Edited August 18, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Tryhard]

Hey, look, someone FINALLY offered me an answer! It wasn't actually at all in regards to my post, and it wasn't specifically about Malliesia/Malicia, but hey, it's something!

Again, improving a name in this case is so subjective. Wait, you've defined it as more "aesthetic, sensible." Now, if only those were not also subjective terms. Well, I'd guess that the only way to determine what it best when something is subjective would be to go by popular opinion.

And then you go on to say that people only want some names to stay the same so that they are more familiar! Why, are these not the same reasons to "improve" the names? And to go with FE11's names? The argument for not changing the names is the same as yours for changing the names! The thing is, as I said, Malliesia, in the one poll you guys bothered to put up, so excuse me if it's "bull****," did massively better than Malicia. Doesn't that tell you which one is more aesthetically pleasing? What about sensible? Malicia is a word on its own, and it also tied to malicious. Neither of those words make any sense with this character. Notice the word sense? And there not being any? I'd say that's not sensible.

Oh, and I'd still like to hear your reasoning specifically regarding Malicia.

Okay, so what you've said so far is that you prefer Belf to Vergil. If you were to give this patch to people not already introduced or comfortable with FE12, chances are they are going to see Vergil and think it is a "better" name, in a sense. If I were to personally pick out of the two which was the more aesthetic, sensible name, and I hope others would have the same opinion or else this world is screwed that Vergil was the better choice. I don't see why you would see Belf is the better name. Okay, so if it's because it doesn't have a correlation with the kata, how about the forementioned two suggestions of Bell or Belves?

Once again, show Malliesia vs Malicia to a person who is unfamiliar with FE12 (or FE3, if they are clinging onto the name for nostalgic sake), and Malicia would crop up the winner for being a cleaner name. A poll on Serenes Forest isn't the end all be all representation of the Fire Emblem fanbase, frankly. And it seems you are the only one here to relate the name Malicia to "malicious." Seriously, I don't see it. Are we going to liken Serra to "serene" and denote her apparent tranquil personality? Did you have a problem with that?

Edited August 18, 2011 by Kelsper

[Anouleth]

lulz, exaggerations

and that poll was total bull**** and anyone who analyzed the situation knows it, all it did was prove that people would rather not have things change than having things change for the better when they risk having things change for the worse, if Malliesia's name were known as "Mallisha" before and we put "Mallisha" up as one of the changes people probably would have chosen that,

Personally, I prefer Malliesia as a name. It just looks better than Mallisha or Malicia, even if those are "real names". Maybe it's just because I'm familiar with it as a name, but I don't think that names of fantasy characters necessarily have to line up exactly with real life names. And I think that's a pretty bold claim to make, that people would have picked Mallisha, given that we really don't know if people prefer Malliesia because it's familiar or whether it's a better sounding name.

Once again, show Malliesia vs Malicia to a person who is unfamiliar with FE12 (or FE3, if they are clinging onto the name for nostalgic sake), and Malicia would crop up the winner for being a cleaner name.

That seems like another awfully confident assertion. Was some other poll performed on people who were unfamiliar with FE12 that I don't know about?

Edited August 18, 2011 by Anouleth

[Tryhard]

That seems like another awfully confident assertion. Was some other poll performed on people who were unfamiliar with FE12 that I don't know about?

What can I say? I'm a confident man. But in the end, lolpolls.

Either way:

Kay?

Edited August 18, 2011 by Kelsper

[Anouleth]

What can I say? I'm a confident man. But in the end, lolpolls.

Either way:

Kay?

I love Deal With It Dog. There is no surer sign that I have won an argument than the person replying with the visual equivalent of "well i don't care i'm going to be an idiot anyway and there's nothing you can do about it".

[Tryhard]

I love Deal With It Dog. There is no surer sign that I have won an argument than the person replying with the visual equivalent of "well i don't care i'm going to be an idiot anyway and there's nothing you can do about it".

This was an argument? It wasn't even directed solely at you. :3

If you prefer Malliesia I have no problem with that, but if you believe that poll to be an accurate representation of what the translation team should go with, (and they could go with anything) I don't believe that the silent majority believes Malliesia > Malicia.

But anyway, enough of that.

[Rewjeo]

Okay, so what you've said so far is that you prefer Belf to Vergil. If you were to give this patch to people not already introduced or comfortable with FE12, chances are they are going to see Vergil and think it is a "better" name, in a sense. If I were to personally pick out of the two which was the more aesthetic, sensible name, and I hope others would have the same opinion or else this world is screwed that Vergil was the better choice. I don't see why you would see Belf is the better name. Okay, so if it's because it doesn't have a correlation with the kata, how about the forementioned two suggestions of Bell or Belves?

I've said that I'm perfectly fine with Vergil. Which I think draws another point to the whole Malliesia thing- it's not that I want it to be Malliesia, but that I want it to not be Malicia. Malesia? Even better. Melissa? Works for me. Malicia? No. I just hate that name aesthetically for her. I would literally take Bob before Malicia aesthetically. Not exaggerating. This isn't even just to make a point, I can literally see her as "Bob" before "Malicia."

Also, I hardly see how for me it is familiarity given that I've hardly played FE3, and she was Marishia all through FE12, when I didn't use her ever, anyways. Besides, how is it that sometimes going with what is familiar is what you HAVE to do, and other times you CANNOT DO IT?

Once again, show Malliesia vs Malicia to a person who is unfamiliar with FE12 (or FE3, if they are clinging onto the name for nostalgic sake), and Malicia would crop up the winner for being a cleaner name. A poll on Serenes Forest isn't the end all be all representation of the Fire Emblem fanbase, frankly.

And yet no one has made a poll anywhere else! That says, to me, that this whole "I think that if you asked more people would probably vote for Malicia" thing is not very certain. At all. It says to me that people are worried they would STILL vote for Malliesia, and they'd just rather not take the risk. As it is, I at least have evidence and reasoning as for why I think it should not be Malicia, and all that's been proposed against it is "this small group thinks it's better, and your larger group just doesn't count."

And it seems you are the only one here to relate the name Malicia to "malicious." Seriously, I don't see it. Are we going to liken Serra to "serene" and denote her apparent tranquil personality? Did you have a problem with that?

Erm, not quite the same. Yes, Serra is sort of the same as serene. Except that Serra (or Sara or Sarah) is a very common name in real life, and serene is not a particularly distinctive word, AND you have to change an entire half of the name for it. While Malicia is NOT a common name and it is one sound- not even a syllable, you add an "s" sound to the end- away from malicious, which is a much more distinctive word than serene. Just say Malicias. Notice what word it is?

Oh, and guess what you've still failed to show? ANY REASONING FOR WHY MALICIA IS BETTER THAN MALESIA OR WHY IT IS SO BAD TO GO WITH WHAT SOME PEOPLE ARE FAMILIAR WITH WHEN OTHER TIMES YOU HAVE TO.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Arch]

That all caps statement at the end made me laugh pretty hard. 'Tis a shame, because I was actually listening to your points prior to that (at least it was at the end, after I'd read your arguments, that you undermined your seriousness). I'd suggest eating a sandwich, then coming back and reading the rest of my post. Anyways, it is "so bad" to go with names people are "familiar with" because some of those names are crappy, convoluted messes. Some of them sound terrible, and some of them are terrible. Why should we strive for the preservation of crap just because people are used to seeing it?

As for justifying Malicia, I'll spare you the time of actually going back and reading the debate we had on that one (I'm just a nice guy, hahah). Snow outlined a kana argument for Malicia, agreeing that it would be a better translation of the base name. It's an internal name Intelligent Systems used in the remake, so it's not like we just pulled it out of nowhere. Malicia also has that reference to malice as you point out, which actually makes some degree of sense when you consider the character. There are repeated references to her being a "bad girl," including her ending in both FE3 and FE12. I'm deriving an implication of sexual promiscuity from that, at least that's what "bad girl" makes me think of. The name sorta fits, since being promiscuous at such a young age, and being a cleric, could be considered "malicious."

Edited August 18, 2011 by Arch

[Rewjeo]

Thus why I suggested Malesia- it's not convoluted. However, having gotten a direct answer regarding her character, that satisfies me. Based on her portrait and class, I had not assumed she was like that as a character. Knowing what she's like, I accept Malicia.

[Arch]

It looks like my job is to post a new name idea per day... No wonder I'm called "radical Arch."

We were discussing Elrean's name in this topic yesterday, and someone suggested to me the name "Erelian." It flows a little better than Elrean (at least, in my mind), satisfies the goal for shortening his name, and it fits the kana (it basically swaps the l and r sound positions of the fan name, which are interchangeable in Japanese anyways). It's a bit of a different route to take on his name, but it still seems like a plausible translation. I'm interested to hear some thoughts on this one.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Arch

[Darros]

Erelian actually counds pretty cool. Elrean sounds just awkward to me.

[Joerachi]

I like how Erelian rolls off of the tounge.

I'd like that over Elrean or Ellerean, personally.

[Tryhard]

Elrean is shorter and easier for me to say, personally, but meh at this point. Erelian it is if so.

[Max Power]

Seeing how Malliesia/Malicia is sparking so much controversy, I'd suggest we'd make two versions of the patch. We'd have the "Malicia FE12 Patch" and the "Malliesia FE12 Patch".

Then, we could continue the process with the Belf/Vergil Patch, Elrean Patch, Samto Patch... Then everyone will be happy, playing the game with their favorite characters named as they want (because yes, everyone love Malliesia, I even heard she was going to be in the next Smash Bros... She's such a central character in the story).

I would personnally loooooove to play a FE12 Marius patch!

Edited August 18, 2011 by Max Power

[Tryhard]

They shouldn't need to create multiple patches just to satisfy everyone's "needs." :\

I can deal if there are names that I don't like as much.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Kelsper

[Max Power]

(that was sarcasm lol. Making multiple patches with different names would be an awful idea lol)

[Tryhard]

(that was sarcasm lol. Making multiple patches with different names would be an awful idea lol)

Oh. Makes it hard to detect sarcasm through the internet. Actually, I took your suggestion seriously because people have already suggested that already. :3

[dondon151]

We were discussing Elrean's name in this topic yesterday, and someone suggested to me the name "Erelian." It flows a little better than Elrean (at least, in my mind), satisfies the goal for shortening his name, and it fits the kana (it basically swaps the l and r sound positions of the fan name, which are interchangeable in Japanese anyways).

No it doesn't (to the last one). ル ("ru" for all you other people) doesn't correspond well to the second syllable in the suggested name, nor does "レーン" ("re-n") correspond well to the last 2 syllables. The kana for Ellerean don't suggest a 2 syllable ending to his name when anglicized.

Any verdict on "Bell" or "Belves" or alternatives to Belf that aren't the out-of-place "Vergil?"

[Max Power]

Oh. Makes it hard to detect sarcasm through the internet. Actually, I took your suggestion seriously because people have already suggested that already. :3

Haha, sorry about that lol. I know sarcasm is not always easy to detect in a simple text lol.

And I didn't know people seriously made that suggestion haha...

[Arch]

dondon, I feel like you're grasping at straws here. Erelian is just as plausible, I feel, as Elrean or Ellerean. By your explanation, all three names are a stretch. You even stated that two-syllables for the ending shouldn't be okay, which means El-re-an and El-ler-re-an are out the window too (unless my pronunciation is funky there). Although it's nice to see you arguing for throwing a fanslation name out the window, I don't think that going with something totally different is necessary in this case.

EDIT: Yeah, someone told me that I was applying a weird pronunciation to Ellerean.

As for Bell and Belves... Bell seems more like a feminine name to me (if it were applied as a name to anyone at all). Belves is okay, but I don't see how it's any less "out-of-place" than Vergil. If either way we're going for an "out-of-place" name, might as well go with the one that sounds better (Vergil) and the one that is actually based on a real name (Belves turned up matches or close matches on BtN's name database).

Edited August 18, 2011 by Arch